AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Actions that do and do not break stealth?

I've come across several rp situations that made me wonder (and no, I am not complaining at all

), which actions would break a PC's stealth. Seen a situation with a stealthed person holding another at the blade point. Blade at the back/at the throat. Should such action break stealth?
Another, a stealthed one setting a person on fire. Shouldn't that break stealth? A hostile action with a source of light. I know they can always rehide right away, there is no timer on HiPS, which is fine. I play a stealther myself, so would love to know when it's a fair play to let the pc be seen even if for a few seconds when she does something bad. ^^;

The whole thing with stealth is you're not magically invisible, just really good at hiding. Even HiPs ICly only breaks line of sight for long enough for someone to find a good spot to hide from my understanding. Putting your blade against someones throat to me would definitely break stealth mode ICly, just the same as if you touched or were touched by the person in any manner. It's Listen or Spot to catch someone in stealth mode, if you touch them that's like a dead give away.

talking above a whisper should break stealth.. it doesn't... I can have shadowdancers that I see talk and talk and talk to me while hidden *not in a whisper* and get looks from other characters about who the hell is she talking to.

and there has been the gentleman rule of atleast 3 seconds (one missisippi two missisipp...) between hipsing. not sure if its a real rule but ive tried to go by it.

I wish.

Imho, that would break stealth. Atleast to the person whom the blade is pointing at. In reality, you could easily figure where the person is standing by the blade point. I mean if someone puts a gun to your back, its a no brainer there is someone directly behind you..

That being said, FR and certainly amia, is not in reality. There are things that go on here that make no apparent sense whatsoever.

*nodnod* Just thought it was a bit unfair that a stealther can perform a number of actions (and some of them rather hostile ones) while remaining relatively safe unless there was a spotter around. I'd like to hear a DM view on this, as something I can go back to when I play my assassin/SD

Last edited by Analog Kid on Sun, Feb 12 2012, 0:12 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Just a small point, if you look under the SD reference...it does suggest that a Dancers HIPS ability is 'supernatural', and that they can remain hidden even while standing out in the open with nothing to hide behind, so long as a suitable shadow is near. Now I hear several of you saying 'BS! So what! The guy has a knife to his back!" ...I agree. It SHOULD be a bit of a give away. However, game mechanics being what they are, we would need to break stealth....for the sake of seeming 'fair'. But a Dancer with a suitable hide skill to remain hidden, should be allowed to do that. A blade to someones back, still deny's the victim line of sight, even though they know someone is there. So, that said, they wouldn't be able to see the person anyway.....and anyone else standing near, wouldn't either...unless they had a high enough ability to see said Dancer. So, I think, for fairness sake...in this PARTICULAR case, and in my own humble opinion...it would be good of the Dancer in question to simply send a tell or something saying something to the effect "i'm right behind you, with a blade to your back". Then if the person wants to react, so be it. But no one else should know whats going on, unless they have the ability to perceive it.

Now, putting a blade to someones neck or back...or what have you, will, by many people, be counted as a 'hostile' action, and I again agree with you. To a point. The act of placing something to someones back, in itself ISN'T hostile, IMO. They could be using a pencil for all the victim knows...or a blunt stick. They don't know! They only feel something on their back. To me, the intent to cause harm is the hostile action, and thus, the one that should force the victim to break stealth. Even if they're only emoting it, and not using the combat mechanics.

In the end, its a game. We're here to have fun, and help each other have fun at the same time. "Dick measuring' and all that narcissistic crap should be checked at the door. "My pixelated cartoon is better than yours!!!" leaves a bad tastes in peoples mouth, and makes the game less fun. De'aarth's reference to the 'gentlemens' rule I think is a good one. Be good to each other and have fun FIRST. You only get out of the game what you put into it. Give someone a bad attitude, and you'll get it....

right? =D

Judging by your responce, Analog, my assassin can sneak up on someone and press a poisoned needle to the back of someone's neck and remain hidden since it's not a hostile act? Would plunging a needle break stealth then? >.>

Well, something like that needs to be a 'grey' area that should only be judged and decided by a DM. Of course, as you say, by my OWN response, I would think yes, my argument supports this.....but still, that's a thing that many people will agree/disagree on, and so should be ruled on by a DM.

I just want to note...mainly for you, Again she, that my final comment was not directed at you, or anyone in particular, only at the situation, and its possibilities. =D Though, I'm sure you knew that since I haven't been shot yet. haha

Psh you know me, I do not care if -my pc- wins or loses as long as the rp is good. In that case -I- win either way. Just I guess it's a matter of being fair and not falling into godmoding. :p The impression I got that some think they can do whatever they wish in stealth. Light fires. Stab. Talk. And remain concealed at the same time. I am not sure it's right.

Non-HIPS stealther's would* require something infront of them to obscure Line of Sight. Non-HIPS stealthers would not be able to take most actions without being seen.

However ANY interaction by a HIPS'd stealther would invariably lead them to being brought ought of their shadows as for the purpose of hiding whilest HIPS the shadows themselves are the things obscuring LoS. So yes if you do things like holding someone while in stealth mode you're a douchenugget, stop it.

That isnt to say someone willingly couldnt be held onto in order to apply your hide bonus to them but I would say the penalty for obsfucating a non-dancing entity would be through the goddamned roof. Beyond the 50 cap.

*I say would because bioware fucked the dog when they did sneaking in general.

You could probably approach someone and at least launch into the Grapple under stealth, but as soon as you make that first attempt, you're open and free for yummy reaction.

The thing about D&D or especially NWN is that getting the drop on someone isn't as good as it is in real life. Coup de grace aside, you won't die if someone knifes you in the back (or hell, slice your throat). It'll hurt, and if they have sneak damage they'll do it, but level 30 PCs are veritable walls of hit points (except wizards, but they don't need any help) so you'll have a chance for reprisal.

I realise this might break immersion so in this case mileage may vary for the situation, and the DMs might say I'm completely wrong (hell I'm not even that confident about my analysis), but that's just how I interpret the mechanics. Dramatic potential is good though.

Poison needle: If you have the ability to deliver poison through a needle (I don't think you can - you can only apply it to weapons) I'm sure you can go for it as a quasi-non-hostile act. But most poisons suck anyway - like I said, walls of hit points. You could DC request an uber contact poison though I guess.

Lighting fires... um... that's just weird. Who does that? You're also destroying every shadow but your own for quite some distance in most cases, which may make hiding/rehiding difficult. And that's if you don't set fire to yourself. Also a lot of people don't know how fire works very well.

A HiPSer should just be able to jump in and out of stealth to do a bunch of stuff, though...

serbiris wrote:

Poison needle: If you have the ability to deliver poison through a needle (I don't think you can - you can only apply it to weapons) I'm sure you can go for it as a quasi-non-hostile act. But most poisons suck anyway - like I said, walls of hit points. You could DC request an uber contact poison though I guess.

why not?

rpwise makes no sense that poison cant be put in needle just because you dont have a skill or feat "coat needle with poison". agree with DC requestable poison though.

All of this is pointless I thinks and it should be's until a DM says what it is.

De'aarth wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Poison needle: If you have the ability to deliver poison through a needle (I don't think you can - you can only apply it to weapons) I'm sure you can go for it as a quasi-non-hostile act. But most poisons suck anyway - like I said, walls of hit points. You could DC request an uber contact poison though I guess.

why not?

rpwise makes no sense that poison cant be put in needle just because you dont have a skill or feat "coat needle with poison". agree with DC requestable poison though.

You can't expect absolute freedom of action in a game-based roleplay. There will always be entanglements. There are a lot of things that you can't simulate even though physically they're quite easy to do, and application of poison is such a thing.

But if your opponent agrees that you can needle them, then by all means. But you can't enforce PC dice rolls, and there are a hell of a lot involved: fort saves vs an arbitrary DC (good luck getting an unfamiliar stranger to agree to an arbitrary DC - you could use the poisons in the DMG or worse the in-game poisons but they're impotent and useless - most of them are utterly boring except drow poison, which in addition to not being available in-game except for one tiny situation, has a pitifully low DC) then you have to somehow simulate the actual ability damage which if not physically impossible is a huge hassle. It could still work when you're with someone whose roleplay you know and trust but in such a case anything goes really. But in most situations it's just not practical. Eventually someone's going to say, "hang on, that's not fair" and then things will just get dodgy.

But yeah it's not for us to decide.

The needle is not the point. Replace needle with a dagger and the meaning of my post does not change. It's not about DC's on poisons and so on :p I am talking about stealth.

Dont hold a knife against someones throat and still claim to be in stealth. Just... no. And definitely no setting on fire.

My curiosity stems from this: What if you are stealthed behind someone and hold a knife to their back? Obviously they know you are there, but you would be stealthed to everyone else, I'd think? Or is that more circumstantial?

Last edited by serbiris on Sun, Feb 12 2012, 16:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

AgainShe wrote:

The needle is not the point. Replace needle with a dagger and the meaning of my post does not change. It's not about DC's on poisons and so on :p I am talking about stealth.

I did address the non-needle point in my post, I just felt the need to separately address the needle so I did so. Besides, it was brought up as a way to threaten someone without actually being hostile (though I think any sort of violent threat is significantly hostile...), which the dagger doesn't really apply for.

Edit: And come to think of it the fact that poisons in D&D are utterly balls-useless is totally the point (as is the threat of a single sneak attack), but as I said I understand people disagreeing with this approach because letting the mechanics (which often don't make sense) take precedence over dramatic potential is a good way to not have fun sometimes. But if someone's messing with you... well, just go with what Silent said and no invisi-knifing.

If you're holding a knife to someones back I don't see how you can be hiding. You're standing BEHIND someone. You're not actively hiding, you're placing a knife against someones back, which is hostile, and thus people are aware of you.

Naivatkal wrote:

My curiosity stems from this: What if you are stealthed behind someone and hold a knife to their back? Obviously they know you are there, but you would be stealthed to everyone else, I'd think? Or is that more circumstantial?

+1. She only suggests putting the knife to their back, little more than tapping them on the shoulder, or even holding your finger against them. Not, CQCing them with your arm around their throat and so on.....

Quote:

...But a Dancer with a suitable hide skill to remain hidden, should be allowed to do that. A blade to someones back, still deny's the victim line of sight, even though they know someone is there. So, that said, they wouldn't be able to see the person anyway.....and anyone else standing near, wouldn't either...unless they had a high enough ability to see said Dancer.
.... But no one else should know whats going on, unless they have the ability to perceive it.

... No, that's stupid. Of course another DM can contradict me, but when you hide you need to focus on hiding, you can't just stand behind someone with a knife to their back and expect no one else to see them. If the person has a knife to their back they are /aware/ of your presence, and can target you, hiding isn't invisiblity.

I think this rule should be based on Assassin's Creed gameplay.

Quote:

... No, that's stupid. Of course another DM can contradict me, but when you hide you need to focus on hiding, you can't just stand behind someone with a knife to their back and expect no one else to see them. If the person has a knife to their back they are /aware/ of your presence, and can target you, hiding isn't invisiblity.

Quote:

..... So, I think, for fairness sake...in this PARTICULAR case, and in my own humble opinion...it would be good of the Dancer in question to simply send a tell or something saying something to the effect "i'm right behind you, with a blade to your back". Then if the person wants to react, so be it. But no one else should know whats
going on, unless they have the ability to perceive it.

What about something like this?

For the sake of saying, I would agree 100% that the person being held at knifepoint would know exactly where you are and they can react, that's why I was only asking about other people. If people are not exactly paying attention to the person being threatened, then I would think it reasonable that the assailant would be able to keep their presence hidden.

Of course, creative RPing and also positioning would be key. As in, if you are standing behind someone in the middle of a room it's kind of hard to be hiding. But outside, at night, or near a wall it's a bit easier to keep hidden. Or, if you RP it as if you are not threatening anyone (the classic 'stand next to them with a blade hidden under their arm' sort of thing) then that's another thing. But, then, the latter isn't really being stealthy but more of an alternative to being stealthed behind someone.

No, Silent is spot on. Simply put, if you are interacting in any way with any other character, you are by default not hiding and thus not stealthed. If you are hiding under a table or behind a tree, you're stealthed. If you are deep in the shadows taking no other actions, you're stealthed. If you touch or speak to anyone, you're not stealthed. As stated before, you're not invisible and don't get the same benefits.

I guess I just don't get the connection between threatening someone from the shadows and other people suddenly being able to see you. I think, though, that it does also come down to the issue of NWN mechanics and how skills are lumped together and such. You are either stealth or not. You can't just be moving silently (which I think would be appropriate if no one is looking at you and you are trying to not be suddenly heard even though you are not hiding, and thereby trying to not attract attention to yourself being in the room).

Good point, but how can you threaten someone if they don't know you are there? Drawing attention by that action would negate any attempt at hiding.

Yeah, and that's the tricky thing. You can't make yourself 'seeable' to just one person so they couldn't strike back at you. In order for it to be fair, you have to drop out of stealth. Again, I totally agree the person you are threatening should know exactly where you are.

So, in the end, it's best to drop stealth and then RP being stealthed, with rolls for a baseline of your skills, and trust others to make some good judgements. Plus, you can factor in things like lighting and positioning and stuff, and generally people on the server are very accommodating when it comes to RP driven things like that.

Quote:

For the sake of saying, I would agree 100% that the person being held at knifepoint would know exactly where you are and they can react, that's why I was only asking about other people. If people are not exactly paying attention to the person being threatened, then I would think it reasonable that the assailant would be able to keep their presence hidden.

+1...again.

I really don't think this situation as to be black and white extremes. Naivatkal called it too...."Creative RPing". That's what this should boil down to. Not "The douchenut is megagaming!! Stop it!" There really ARE ways of making the point that you are in a VERY good spot to mess someone up bad, and not be 'noticed' doing it. Just because the 'game mechanics' don't show it, or allow it.....which come down to metagaming anyway...doesn't mean it can't be done. I think those people that have their toons actions dictated by the 'programming' or 'mechanics' AREN'T roleplaying....they're ROLL PLAYING.....and at that time, the game is lost. It becomes what can I do 'mechanically' not creatively.

We're not our toons, we are PEOPLE. If a situation comes up, then find a CREATIVE way to have FUN with it, and if that can't be done, find a way to leave the situation alone, and move on. Best case scenario...call a DM, or just agree to disagree, and drop the situation.

"No, that doesn't work" "yes it does!!!" "No, you're wrong" There are so many ways around a situation. Creative RPing is what we're here for, not "The rules say, you can't. so don't."

IF people are not paying attention, thats roleplay, not mechanics, you can't stealth and hold someone at blade point. You can hold someone at bladepoint and hope no one notices, that's fine, but you can't prevent people from targetting you if you're going to make a hostile action like that. You're visible, you can be hit by things, and that needs to be reflected mechanically. If you're stood behind a wall people can't target you, hell they can't even see you, but some people invest in a skill called listen so they might still be aware of you.

While you shouldn't still be hiding, done right you could be doing it right in plain sight and people wouldn't realize you were doing it. The classic "Hold a gun in a pocket and press up against someone" sort of schtick.

Mind, there's still a chance someone might spot that something's up and react accordingly

Addendum:

While due to mechanics they don't quite have the rules covered for things like slitting someone's throat or choking them out, it'd be reasonable to presume that having someone with a knife at their throat and then slitting it would be more then just a simple standard crit.

In a DM situation, I would hazard the DM would overrule mechanics and say of someone's throat is slit they're at the least bleeding like crazy.

when a DM is involved if the DM wants to throw the mechanics of NWN out the window they can... no one as far as I know is questioning that.

I'm not sure I agree, Silent... HiPS is a Supernatural ability. It's magic; it doesn't have to make sense to the rules of the real world, it only has to make sense in a world where magic can break those rules. Holding a blade to someone's neck while HiPS isn't any more problematic than holding a blade to someone's neck while under the effect of Improved Invisible. A HiPSer isn't just hiding behind something and trying to keep quiet, she's drawing on her intimate familiarity with the power of Shadow to allow herself to remain hidden in situations where hiding would be impossible mundanely. What she's carrying in her hands while she does it, and where she's pointing whatever she's carrying, are irrelevant.

IMHO, of course.

I think any sort of intercharacter interaction should break stealth. You're clearly having an impact on your environment. If you want to hold a knife to someone's back, unstealth and whisper it.

Also, TALKING IN STEALTH BREAKS STEALTH OMFG PEOPLE

I think everything should be able to be done in stealth. Including casting, eating, sleeping, sex, and setting people on fire.

Don't bother trolling here, Jim, thats what off topic is for.

Lizzie wrote:

I'm not sure I agree, Silent... HiPS is a Supernatural ability. It's magic; it doesn't have to make sense to the rules of the real world, it only has to make sense in a world where magic can break those rules. Holding a blade to someone's neck while HiPS isn't any more problematic than holding a blade to someone's neck while under the effect of Improved Invisible. A HiPSer isn't just hiding behind something and trying to keep quiet, she's drawing on her intimate familiarity with the power of Shadow to allow herself to remain hidden in situations where hiding would be impossible mundanely. What she's carrying in her hands while she does it, and where she's pointing whatever she's carrying, are irrelevant.

IMHO, of course.

+1

Silent2001 wrote:

Don't bother trolling here, Jim, thats what off topic is for.

It was sarcasm aimed at Lizzie, not trolling.

... I guess I should be honored?

In any case, I stand by my opinion. Though I guess I agree that being hidden by Shadows doesn't seem like it would do much to mask any sounds that might come out of your mouth. HiPS should protect you form being seen, not from being heard.

Hide in Plain Sight isn't this magical feat that changes the way you interact with the shadow.

Quote:

Hide in Plain Sight is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability

That's all it does! Note the usage of 'momentarily'. You cover yourself in shadow long enough that you can go off and hide somewhere.

+1 it all you like, if you're doing this you need to stop. Again, unless another DM wants to say "SHUSH SIRENT"

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Hide in Plain Sight isn't this magical feat that changes the way you interact with the shadow.

Quote:

Hide in Plain Sight is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability

That's all it does! Note the usage of 'momentarily'. You cover yourself in shadow long enough that you can go off and hide somewhere.

So... that kind of sounds to me like it's a magical feat that changes the way you interact with shadow.

Snarkiness aside, I know how it's described in the manuals. It just doesn't seem to actually work that way in-game. Though granted, the stealth system in-game is pretty staggeringly unrealistic to begin with.

Someone needs to do a youtube video of them trying to sneak up on people using NWN's method.

Anyway, its not even the fact that its non-realistic. The game itself is anything but realistic. Its that it doesn't in any way mimic or conform to D&D's method of hiding. In table top, you'd not be able to stand in the middle of a walkway and not suffer some serious penalties to your stealth, if not be completely shunted out of stealth. In saying all this, it wouldn't be possible to fix the hide mechanic in NWN, simply because the tilesets rarely offer enough places to hide in Dungeons, cities or anywhere. All the little bits and pieces such as carts, stalls, tree's, masses of stinky peasents etc etc, aren't shown in the area's on NWN because it would kill your computer.

players will always abuse stealth by talking while in it.

Well if someone talks in stealth you know roughly where they are, but you still can't see them. As far as I'm aware the text floats over your head if you talk while stealthed, so unless I'm wrong about the floating text (might be in NWN2 only) I really can't see how talking while stealthed is abusing stealth mode.

As for Hide in Plain Sight, in pen and paper you don't need to find cover. It says specifically you can do it without cover so long as you're within 10 feet of a shadow. What's more, it's completely within PnP rules to shoot someone at a distance of 10 feet or more and not come out of stealth, so people using HIPS to instantaneously hide after firing a single shot are well within the rules of D&D, and are in fact nerfed by NWN in that you always know from where the arrow has originated. Finally, since hiding is either a free or move action, there's no reason you should have to leave a one round delay before hiding.

When people talk in stealth, the only ones that can see it are the ones that have high spot/listen to detect them in the first place.

Going into HiPS after firing a single shot isn't the trouble with HiPS so much as it is the meleers who abuse HiPS to keep people flatfooted while the SDs mince them to pieces. That is, those who have no defenses against HiPS anyway.

Actions that do and do not break stealth?

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