AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Question Regarding Dragon Disciple Breath

Okay, so just tell me if I'm reading this right...

1d10 damage per Dragon Disciple level, 10 + 1 per Dragon Disciple level + constitution mod DC reflex for half.
Takes two rounds to use, one round of taking a deep breath and one more to fire.

So by level 30 I can expect to deal an average 55 damage per round using my breath attack?

I also heard there was a 5 round cooldown or something?

5 round cooldown is correct, I believe. And I'm pretty sure the dmg you are calcing is right, too. I think (give or take other levels).

Also, so you play Zes. Excellent.

Last edited by Moth on Wed, Jan 11 2012, 1:55 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Okay, so this seems to be a common theme with at least one of the developers on this server:

They take something good that needs tweaking, an easy script, an easy change, something that can be done by someone with no experience in the toolset given maybe an hour with the right resources for them to work it out and no more than half that for someone who knows what they're doing. They take something easy, then instead of making the easy change they tear down the entire thing and build it up again. I know the feeling - I made a whole encounter system from scratch and it was a lot better than the default or that idiotic system everyone seems to love where instead of using nice, easy, functional local variables they wedge the settings awkwardly into the encounter trigger's tags. It's a travesty to programming everywhere, yet popularity demands bad practice be continued, how else would things like homeopathic medicine stay in business?

But I'm getting off topic. Those of you who have read my thread regarding Master Scout costs will note my gripe about the trap upgrades being less than user friendly and the response I got was that there was no other way to make the upgrades tradeable. This makes it ineffably clear why these things happen - because the developer in question prioritises what is, for the player, ultimately doable over what is easily doable. It's a classical approach and one which to a programmer, a person interested in the utility and working of software, seems optimal because the programmer wants to get the most utility out of a thing. The player, on the other hand, usually does not appreciate so much the complexity of design unless that complexity is hidden away behind an advanced tab with the easiest working of a thing on top as default. It is for this reason that there are professional and basic versions of products, for varying skill levels with the programmer most intimately aware of the capabilities of their own product being at the top and a less computer saavy user being at the bottom. Videogames rarely apply the classical approach, prefering to provide ease of use in the form of instant gratification, help in the form of tips along the way to thrust the player into the gameplay and a lack of over complication so as not to stifle the player's interest with too many choices or too complex a system.

The dragon breath script is a good example of this. I've noticed it now uses a cone instead of the typical dragon breath effect, which looks terrible and I read in this thread that the round long delay before the round you use the breath weapon on was because the cone effect wouldn't work otherwise. Well the default RDD breath VFX seemed to work fine last I used it, so why not use that? As for the scripting itself:

One could get rid of lines 41 through 57 and replace with:

Code:

    nDamageDice = nLevel;
    nSaveDC = 10 + nLevel + GetAbilityModifier(ABILITY_CONSTITUTION, OBJECT_SELF);

Instead of having a cooldown, a local integer 'nHasUsedBreath' could be set from 0 to 1, to 2, to 3, to 4 and to 5 for each time you use your breath weapon, with a 5 round delay reducing the integer by 1 each time. The higher the number, the weaker your breath becomes and a text notifier could be used to inform the player of this. Again, while it sounds complicated to program, this would be a lot easier to add to the existing script than to redo the whole thing and for the player the effect should be quite obvious. To make it moreso, an effect like that of the Barbarian rage timer ticking out could be applied to inform the player that their breath is back to full strength.

Breath weapon types could be decided by similar use of stored variables and again could be easily added to the existing script. There was no need to change the way Dragon Disciple breath worked fundamentally.

All of this (plus a small 2da file change) is easier to script and I would argue better balanced and less prone to disruption from attacks of opportunity, as was the complaint I saw in another thread. I'm more sure of this than I am of the issue regarding the Master Scout - this should be changed. It's been a while since I've done any NWscripting, but I'd be happy to lend whatever help I can.

Thanks for reading. I'm sure you have many complaints and I suspect at least one developer will be very offended and frustrated, because I just said their hard work should be changed and nothing is more infuriating than that. Regardless, my intention with this post was to state my opinion on why things are the way they are and how I think they could be made better, nothing more.

I would think it obvious why the original RDD breath doesn't work. Because it's only fire.

But could you not use the Wyrmling breath effects?

No. I'm so glad you know more about the inner workings of the server than the people that run it though. Quite a feat.

You seem to be at least somewhat knowledgeable in scripting, Moth. But why present yourself as a dick when making a suggestion? I'm sure you'd get more satisfactory answers and would generally be more productive in stating your case if you weren't busy insulting the people who put their time and energy into this server for no pay at all.

Already plans in the works for how to fix the dragon breath, but it'll require a HAK update.

As for why tear things down and build them up from scratch... I have one word for you. Bioware.

Selmak wrote:

Already plans in the works for how to fix the dragon breath, but it'll require a HAK update.

As for why tear things down and build them up from scratch... I have one word for you. Bioware.

Heh..hey now...fair is fair....NwN coding was done over a decade ago and under CORPORATE conditions of "I want to make money now Bioware so get it out of the front door"...heh

But yes...alot of the coding was (and still is) just a pain in the ass....

Personally I am thankful we got the coders here we do...I hate coding..with a passion.

Course I came from a time when you could not save anything and there was no such thing as cut and paste....you typed every single character and god help you if you messed a line up because all it told you was error...no line, nothing to give you any idea what screwed up.

its why I HATE the colon and semi colon sooooo veeery much....

Yes, and if your code didn't save properly to tape... yeah well the 80s were primitive times.

Selmak wrote:

Yes, and if your code didn't save properly to tape... yeah well the 80s were primitive times.

Tape?

You had cassettes? You lucky bastard! :lol:

I am talking the brand spanking new TRASH 80 with that whopping 4k of RAM baby....yeah...3 colors....R G B....now we are talking HI TECH PAC MAN after 6 hours of typing....

Just to watch the lights flicker and blink off for a second....

That is how I got this nice twitch...*twitches some thinking of it*

I LOOOOOOOOOVE no saving...ahuh...yeah...its good for the soul...they told me so..the little voices...ahuh...*wanders off to smack the TRS80 he has kept all these years to beat on*

STILL not enough..*kicks it*

my precious...

The loading noise from tapes was a bit annoying. Think of the sound of dial-up modems, going on for five minutes or more.

I remember loading freakin games of cassette tapes... spectrum.. commodore 64. Getting Apple IIc delivered from USA by friends was like scoring a lottery (of course all the discs got ruined going through customs.. :lol:

)

TormakSaber wrote:

No. I'm so glad you know more about the inner workings of the server than the people that run it though. Quite a feat.

I know three things about the inner workings of this server, that number one: it's based on the same code as every other server, number two: it's not perfect, and number three: it won't get worse for discussing improvements.

I don't complain about things because I want to insult the designers, I complain because I want to see the server get better.

Moth wrote:

I don't complain about things because I want to insult the designers, I complain because I want to see the server get better.

*THUMBS UP!*
Well said!

Try doing it with less knowitall peppered into your statements. That's not an insult, thats sound advice from the dm that takes the bulk of the complaints and knows which get read and which get dismissed.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Moth wrote:

I don't complain about things because I want to insult the designers, I complain because I want to see the server get better.

*THUMBS UP!*
Well said!

She needs to have basic knowledge correct before this is even applicable, Svensk. Don't run off slavishly devoting yourself to the latest "rebel" just yet.

When I join a server, I take a little while to guage the general mood, the way others act, particularly the way server staff act because ultimately they're the ones who, on judging me, will decide whether to take any action against me. On some servers I see reserved, polite people and am reserved and polite in turn, on this server I take Tormak's example and say exactly what I mean without kid gloves. Do you find me rebellious, insulting? I'm using you as a guideline.

But we might be getting off topic at this point...

Is this a somewhat covert attempt at getting a position as developer/scripter?
Because I think there are other ways into this...somewhere.

Yes, you are. As Suney so aptly noted, you are indeed lacking basic knowledge, or you would have understood why you can't just erase a fewlines and call it good. This is not an insult, it's simple fact. If you would like to be taken more seriously, learn more about what you're talking about before you go off spouting about how shitty the devs are because we didn't do it how you say we should.

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Those of you who have read my thread regarding Master Scout costs will note my gripe about the trap upgrades being less than user friendly and the response I got was that there was no other way to make the upgrades tradeable. This makes it ineffably clear why these things happen - because the developer in question prioritises what is, for the player, ultimately doable over what is easily doable.

Like, shit like this. You asked a question and you got an answer. So now you're bitching out the dev on a different line: HOW DARE HE CODE COMPLEXLY SO THAT PLAYERS CAN DO COOL STUFF!" Really? Really? No, "These things happen" because they are brainchilded and then scripted so that characters can enjoy an experience far, far beyond what vanilla NWN offers.

Without seeing a copy of our module ad thus the scripts, you are on absolutely no grounds to call anything "complex" or "simple" because you cannot look at the code, and, from your posts, clearly do now have the knowledge to infer such on a technical basis. You seem to imply that "Choosing to do things differently" means "You're doing it wrong." See: "Why have a cooldown? Do this complicated thing." Well you know what? Dragons canonically have a COOLDOWN, so we wanted a COOLDOWN. Not your overcomplicated system of "Your breath is at 2/5ths power because you breathed only 2 rounds ago, but due to NWN you have no easy way to display a cooldown timer to the player."

Basically, I'll end my point on this.

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There was no need to change the way Dragon Disciple breath worked fundamentally.

No, of course not... If you were happy with your White Dragon Disciple breathing fire and using a flame based VFX. Because when an ability has only a handful of facets (appearance, damage, difficulty to resist, basic ability stuff for NWN) then changing ALL of them as we did is a fundamental change. IF you knew how nwscript, and Amia in general's scripting worked, you would understand this. IF you knew that "the default RDD breath" is literally the only VFX of its kind... that is, it is a unique burst of fire and doesn't exist for any other color or element... you would understand this. If you understood that using the base dragon breaths was undesireable due to aesthetic reasons (the breath looks like it emanates about 5 feet above the PC's head) and mechanical reasons (it visually covers an AoE far larger than we wanted to use for the breath., because it's designed for ACTUAL DRAGONS) and so we went with cones, you'd understand this. If you then understood how the cone VFX worked in regards to needing to fake a cast, you'd understand this.

But you don't. Instead you say "do it my way or you're wrong."

Well, you're wrong.

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Is this a somewhat covert attempt at getting a position as developer/scripter?
Because I think there are other ways into this...somewhere.

f it is, he's/he's donig really bad at it. We already have enough and we're not looking for more, least of all ones that don't seem to have basic knowledge neded to work.

While I agree with what you said, Tormak, I think that might've been a tad more insulting than it had to be. Being a programmer myself, I fully understand what it's like to have people try to simplify your work with stupid suggestions. I guess, the difference is, if I replied like that, I'd be out of a job.

I think everyone who understands and can write nwscript (myself included) actually appreciates the elaborate works of Amia. (Even if my shadow dragon doesn't shoot Energy-draining shadows)

I don't know what this player's intentions are but I hope they play and try to enjoy the server. >.>

All of it is relatively complex. Even when you've had experience of working with the module, it can be frustrating trying to nail down a bug in thousands of lines of code. Even more so when you figure out the problem and have to hunt for all the scripts which use the offending include.

I haven't even seen the current dragon breath, code or in-game, but I trust that Paladin knows what he's doing with the new ones. It's a type of change that, apart from the new guys, we've all had a shot at doing by now.

Why do we have to go the 'long and hard way' about doing it? Consistency with the actual type of damage done, and the type of visual used to represent it. Granted, there are a few places where we don't have that sort of consistency (acid-damage fireballs from BoT) but we're working within certain limitations - there is no green explosion effect we can use there. Yes, the texture can be modded, and the effect model changed to reflect that. But any programmed FX will use The One Model, rather than a range of custom effect models.

Blame Bioware for not leaving room for the community to come up with their own FX and slot them in. Instead we have to re-use existing FX inventively.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to be flippant about the amount of dev work involved - actually I was trying to suggest the opposite, that there has been a lot of hard work put in and that perhaps it could have been done more simply than was apparent. I thought the VFX problem would be easier to solve by using the same VFX as wyrmling breath and was unaware that this wasn't possible.

In reply to Dergali, I'd be happy to dev for this server, but I'm fine just playing it. Still, if they need anything from the wise old scripting orangutan, they need only ask ;)

You should check out the improving amia subforum. Its a placee set up for player suggestions specifically and a good place to talk about this sort of stuff.

Out of curiousity (and yes cool downs are cool), how come only DDs get lumped with a cool down? Can it not be added to shifter forms too?

Take the RDD frontloading, add to it the immunities, add to it the boni to Int/Cha/Con divide that by the requirement to become a shifter x that by the fact that for all intents and purposes a Shifter changes into the creature and isn't some bastard 1/36th breed and you have an answer.

Simply put Shifters are better dragon-kin than a DD could ever hope to be.

Dragon Disciples are half dragons.

But then I get what you mean, a druid or shifter can turn into a full dragon :p

Moth wrote:

Dragon Disciples are half dragons.

They are not.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Moth wrote:

Dragon Disciples are half dragons.

They are not.

Well not initially, but by level 10...

Quote:

Dragon Apotheosis

At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.

Search existing Dd discussion threads.

Last edited by Jes on Fri, Jan 13 2012, 14:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

MoshingChris wrote:

Take the RDD frontloading, add to it the immunities, add to it the boni to Int/Cha/Con divide that by the requirement to become a shifter x that by the fact that for all intents and purposes a Shifter changes into the creature and isn't some bastard 1/36th breed and you have an answer.

Simply put Shifters are better dragon-kin than a DD could ever hope to be.

Power-wise, maybe! I would argue that my DD makes a way cooler dragon-kin than a Shifter could ever hope to be! xD

As far as the half-dragon comment goes, they don't "become" half-dragons, either. Taking on the template of a half-dragon and becoming a half-dragon are two very different things. What that description means is that they get the traits, skills, and abilities equal to that of a half-dragon, but half-dragons are still superior in many ways.

However, as what Tormak said about dragons is true...

TormakSaber wrote:

Dragons canonically have a COOLDOWN, so we wanted a COOLDOWN.

...then Shifters shouldn't be better dragons than dragons could ever hope to be, no?

Template does not a half-dragon make.

Monster Manual wrote:

Creating A Half-Dragon

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

The template is, to my knowledge, the only way to create a half-dragon.

Draconomicon wrote:

The half-dragon template on page 146 of the Monster Manual presents special attacks and special qualities for half-dragon versions of the ten varieties of true dragons described in that book. The information here expands that list to include all true dragons published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date.

Other books expand on the template model rather than creating their own specific race.

Moth wrote:

Monster Manual wrote:

Creating A Half-Dragon

"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

The template is, to my knowledge, the only way to create a half-dragon.

You mean you've never thought of getting a dragon and a humanoid to breed? (...Not that it even needs to be a humanoid...)

Point is, the half-dragon template is distinctly different from the state of being a half-dragon. You can get the half-dragon template by reaching 10th level DD. You cannot however, change your parentage from "Ancient dragon ancestor" to "Dragon mummy/daddy".

If a dragon and a human breed, you get a human which inherits a half-dragon template.

Moth wrote:

If a dragon and a human breed, you get a human which inherits a half-dragon template.

Yes, and it's also a half dragon.

Something a creature with a human mother, a human father, and a dragon greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandfather is not. So again: You are wrong, please listen to those wiser than yourself.

Thing is though Tormak, I've been looking for racial statistics for a half-dragon race and the only one to be found is the template. If there is a specific half-dragon race aside from the template, could you show me where it is in the books?

So taking 10 levels in RDD turns reality into a time machine, murders my father and turns him into a big red dragon?

Because that's literally what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that a Dragon Disciple uses their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their dragon blood, realising its fullest potential. In other words, they magically enhance their dragon blood to the point where it represents half of their lineage, becoming half-dragons and gaining statistics equal to half-dragons as a result.

No. You have the stats, but you are NOT a half dragon. You can say whatever you like; you're still wrong.

It would be very very silly to make 10 RDD levels and some rituals the same thing as having a literal dragon parent.

The books say you get a half-dragon template, a half-dragon by birth gets a half-dragon template, the Dragon Disciple flavour text describes 'realising the power of your blood' and the class ability is called dragon apotheosis. All of which points to you becoming a half-dragon.

Could show me some evidence to the contrary?

Amia custom. Amia removed the "you become a half-dragon at level 10 RDD" years ago.

Lore here is what the DM say the lore is. If they don't like some D&D lore, it gets removed. If they want new lore, they make new lore. If the DM say you are not a half dragon at 10 RDD or even 20 RDD, then you are not.

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Could show me some evidence to the contrary?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62196

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Half-Dragon Template, Not Half-Dragon by Blood

When a dragon disciple reaches level ten in the class, the character takes on the half-dragon template, but does not actually become a half-dragon. They may look like a half-dragon and may be as strong as a half-dragon, but they are still only a dragon disciple of whatever fraction of heritage that they were before. The distinction is important, and is often cause for argument between dragon races.

~~~

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29020&p=1026440&hilit=Disciple#p1026440

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Also the Dragon Discilple class is not half dragon in any form,

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I would consider rephrasing that part on DDs... Makes it sound like you believe lvl 10 DD equates to becoming a Half-Dragon, which is false on Amia

<------- this is a DM

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A dragon disciple who only has gone through four levels of disciple isn't going to have adverse side effects just because they didn't complete and become a "half-dragon"

Quotes showing that it's not actually a half dragon, just similar

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viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60318&p=998321&hilit=Disciple#p998321

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Q: Upon taking the RDD class, does it make you a half-dragon automatically?
A: RDD's aren't half dragons and RPing one as a half dragon without pre-existing DM permission will likely get you slapped.
A2: No, half dragon is a different thing all together

~~~

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58424&p=965193&hilit=Disciple#p965193

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No, taking 10 levels of RDD does not take a request.

What taking the 10th level of RDD shows is that your disciple character has reached the same level stat-wise as a half dragon, but they are -not- half.

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Yeah. Basically your blood has been 'enhanced' to that of the level of a half dragon. You are by no means a true born half dragon. So your stat wise, and blood wise a half dragon. Small details people tend to overlook.

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Taking ten levels of RDD does not turn back time and make it so that a dragon of XYZ color time travelled and fucked your mother.

<--- me

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Difference between RDD and Half dragons is this:

RDDs take RDD lvls representing their study into their draconic bloodline and their willingness to further strengthen that bloodline. It also means that sometimes an RDD can only go partially into their bloodline and not gain wings and breath weapon

A Half dragon is born a half dragon whether they like it or not. They will have wings and/or breath weapon without the need for willingness.

On a more technical lvl: RDD's need to take RDD lvls, but a Half dragon does not need to spend these lvls on RDD and can be any class.

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viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58332&hilit=Disciple

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Not sure if anyone mentioned this but you are right and wrong about the fact they aren't half. Dragon Disciples aren't at first half blooded but they magically enhance their blood so it is as strong as a true half breed. They don't start out as a true half breed and aren't a half breed in the traditional sense but they magically enhance and magnify their blood to the point that it is effecting their characteristics such as strength, growth of wings, scales, etc at the level of a true half breed.

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viewtopic.php?f=2&t=57014&hilit=Disciple

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Half dragons: Child of a humanoid or kobold or goblin or whatever and a dragon. Must be requested and approved. Not sure if the RDD 10 requirement is also still in effect. You /CAN NOT/ use RDD 10 to evade the request requirement, and RDD 10 is NOT a halfdragon in any way other than mechanically.

RDD: Someone who has used arcane rites to "awaken" latent draconic tendancies in themselves. Generally, these people are otherwise normal humans/elves/goblins whatever. They're just innate spellcasters, and innate magic is delineated as having a root, way back in the family, of dragon blood. The further into the class you get, the more bound to the dragon you've awakened you are. This includes strength and vitality, scales and wings, but also to alignment, lines of reasoning and thought, and temper.

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So to summarize, RDD's aren't 1/4th blood dragons.. not even close. Read the highlighted part again. RDD's are apparently those that try to improve on the small bit of draconic blood in them that is about as diluded as the blood in a tiefling or aasimar actually is.

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viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29020&p=851107&hilit=Disciple#p851107

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Q. is dragon disciple considered half-dragon on amia?

A: No Half-Dragons Without Request. If you play a half dragon, and get one approved, you're typically expected (but not required anymore) to take 9 RDD levels to get your stats if you really want them.

Max level RDDs simply have the traits / bonuses of a half dragon. They aren't actually half dragons.

Can I stop yet? I'm only at October 2010, of ONE FORUM.

Moth wrote:

The books say you get a half-dragon template, a half-dragon by birth gets a half-dragon template, the Dragon Disciple flavour text describes 'realising the power of your blood' and the class ability is called dragon apotheosis. All of which points to you becoming a half-dragon.

Could show me some evidence to the contrary?

You're putting too much stock into the name of the template, when it's really not important at all. It's just a bunch of numbers and modifications. The only factor in determining whether you are a half-dragon or not is your parentage. That is the only one single factor, everything else is irrelevant. If you have one dragon parent, you are a half-dragon. That's it. Doesn't matter if all your stats are identical to a half-dragon's.

So in other words the base lore is that you are a half-dragon, but you have infinite freedom to move the goal post in terms of Amia lore. Fair enough, and there's obviously no point arguing that.

In D&D, RDD's become nearly 'like' a half-dragon, but not actually half.
They have activated their lineage, not increased it.
Their blood still has the same percentage (very low), as it was before the Prestige, they simply have similar abilities of a half-dragon.

But, as was said, the DM team has modified things for balance in Amia.

Moth wrote:

So in other words the base lore is that you are a half-dragon, but you have infinite freedom to move the goal post in terms of Amia lore. Fair enough, and there's obviously no point arguing that.

No, the base lore is that you become like a half dragon, not a true half dragon.

Quote:

You're putting too much stock into the name of the template, when it's really not important at all. It's just a bunch of numbers and modifications. The only factor in determining whether you are a half-dragon or not is your parentage. That is the only one single factor, everything else is irrelevant. If you have one dragon parent, you are a half-dragon. That's it. Doesn't matter if all your stats are identical to a half-dragon's.

Yes.

Lots of "base lore" as you call it can be silly, Moth. Just like you say some "base scripting" can be silly even if I have no idea what you're talking about and you might not either. Point is, changing things is sometimes a very good thing and in this case it is. It shouldn't be hard to recognize that it's a good thing. No server needs billions of actual half-dragons running around because of an available PrC. Listen, yo.

I think the simple way to describe is is the aasimar/tiefling analogy. Because you have the genes, does not be your are automatically plane-touched. You can have two siblings, with the same amount of celestial blood, but only one might be aasimar. I picture Dragon Disciple as being a class that "forces the issue", and makes your blood manifest even if it might normally not. This line of reasoning makes me wonder...Celestial Disciple? Infernal Disciple? Food for thought.

Question Regarding Dragon Disciple Breath

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