AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I'm having a bit of a "how to do it right" issue here. In RP communication between Familiars and their Master, should we consider the standard rule set which implies a minimum of five class levels before verbal communication is even possible? I'm asking since the in-game Familiar interaction menu seems to imply potential verbal communication even at first level, so I'm a bit torn on how viable it would actually be for one's Familiar to communicate with the caster, and to a certain extent, the environment.

There's also the issue of them starting out a rather low INT score, which strongly goes against the suggestion of them being able to speak, but if a good RP reason is given for the Familiar to possess knowledge on how to talk, are we still bound by caster levels and stats for interaction / RP limits?

Thanks in advance for your input and feedback

You have a raven, right? Even in PnP, I thought ravens could talk common... Don't quote me on it though! xD

Well I am actually not sure how Amia handles it. normally it is this:

Speak with Master

If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.

But I can tell you that this applies in any case, because I actually asked the DM that when I picked my familiar:

A raven familiar can speak one language of its master’s choice as a supernatural ability.

Last edited by Hikriss on Fri, Nov 18 2011, 17:38 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Yes, Kale is a raven that took an interest in Hikriss' innate sorcery potential during his first stay at the Triumvir, and promoted himself to his adviser and guide. At the moment Hikriss is only a first level Sorcerer, the stagnation of which annoys Kale to no end. I did imagine him as being versed in Common, and acting his role as informant / consult as long as he's been summoned into presence.

However I don't want to tread on toes with this either, and would be willing to wait until fifth level to imply any sort of verbal communication in Common between them or the outside world.

When in doubt, then wait till level 5.

As said though, I have a raven too. Raven can speak one language of its master’s choice as a supernatural ability. And the DM confirmed me that too, when I asked and said that's fine to apply on Amia.

ravens can learn one language in pNp... but then again a snake gives you a bonus to bluff... someone tell me how that works? "he has a snake... he can't be lying..."

back on topic... I have a giant eagle familiar... the giant eagle can speak common and auran but I don't have him talk... something about talking animals doesn't sit right with me... but maybe it's how I have seen speak with animals RPed... where animals speak in full paragraphs :roll:

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

ravens can learn one language in pNp... but then again a snake gives you a bonus to bluff... someone tell me how that works? "he has a snake... he can't be lying..."

back on topic... I have a giant eagle familiar... the giant eagle can speak common and auran but I don't have him talk... something about talking animals doesn't sit right with me... but maybe it's how I have seen speak with animals RPed... where animals speak in full paragraphs :roll:

not to mention: "I have a toad, I can survive one punch more than average wizard"

Uhm... You are aware that you are playing a Fantasy-RPG, yes?

I mean magical granted special skills granted through familiars is no more or less weired than beeing able to shapeshift or to become more agile/stronger/smarter/wiser/charismatic etc. or to become more skilled in lying, singing, tumbeling etc. through magical items/clothing.

Even if it isn't fantasy...

With that, I have to say since Ravens can be trained to talk in real life, there's no reason that a familiar raven- which has certain bonuses to it- is able to learn an entire language.

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

something about talking animals doesn't sit right with me...

Back you up on that 100%
I really can't stand talking anymals, no matter how magical they are.

In a high fantasy setting where dudes can just up and turn into dragons, talking animals is the least of my worries.

But I work on rules like that in regards to levels of ridiculous in fantasy setting. If people can turn into x giant magical thing, I can ignore y little magical thing. If y little magical thing is the highest level, then I'll start taking issue with talking animals and "Medieval" realism.

With my mage I usually just use telepathic/non-verbal communication with his pseudo (I've seen it said they have a telepathic link... though the SRD wiki seems to be telling me that's a lie). It's usually just something communicated like 'You can go/Fly away' (as in 'Go have fun') by making eye contact and nodding to the pseudo. He's spoken to his familiar before, which I think is completely fine, but the pseudo doesn't 'talk'. Instead, he expresses himself through little dragon-like sounds and gestures/movements. For example he was trying to leave Bendir (cause he can't just fly over the walls, lol) and the gate was closed, so I emoted him turning back to the group of hin, bobbing in the air, going 'Skree!' and jerking his head at the gate. One came over and opened it for him. It's fun interacting using him

However, I just thought about pseudo's speaking Draconic. Wouldn't that make sense?

Naivatkal wrote:

However, I just thought about pseudo's speaking Draconic. Wouldn't that make sense?

I presume pseudodragons would have the physical capabilities to speak Draconic... Being... a dragon... And all.... But all accounts of pseudodragons I've read seems to say that they can communicate with people that can speak Common or Sylvan telepathically. I assume those two are its known languages. (Most higher forms of dragon kind that are capable of speech would most definitely be able to talk Common as well, so I don't think pseudodragons have any problems communicating with dragon kind even without Draconic)

Telepathy in PnP, while possible to do so with multiple targets at once, it's like trying to scribe a book on bone parts while you talk to your mother about your sex life and using your toes to play the organ at the same time. It's generally considered to be a one on one type of ability, so my pseudodragon doesn't "talk" to people either.

Of course, talking pseudodragons are the least of my problems compared to evil pseudodragons...

But back on point!!

Regardless of what offends people's sensibilities, if Amarice-Elaraliel got DM confirmation Raven can learn a language of the master's choice as a Supernatural ability (which is a magical ability, unlike normal speech, which would not be suppressed in say, antimagic field), I would go with that. Any other familiars, I wouldn't think they would be able to talk but it's a raven.

Seeing talking panthers and bears makes me think of Jungle Book. This is not Jungle Book.

Its not about the raven that bothers me.. like i said in pNp ravens get to learn 1 language.. it's why its one of the most favored familiars cause many use them as scouts...

what bothers me is when I see a mage controlling his panther and then see "*animal* hello, how are you doing today?"... or something very similar to that... and most magical animals can talk in one language or another.. its the none magical animals that bug the hell out of me.

Quote:

Seeing talking panthers and bears makes me think of Jungle Book. This is not Jungle Book.

QFE

Non magical Animals arent allowed to talk on amia (summons/companions/etc.) neither are druids/shifters in animal shape.

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

ravens can learn one language in pNp... but then again a snake gives you a bonus to bluff... someone tell me how that works? "he has a snake... he can't be lying..."

Familiar + master is a magical bond. IT's not that he has a snake, it's that he is, due to his bond with his now magical familiar, "Snake-Tongued".

personally i've only done talking fey =3 I don't get the vibe that talking ravens is something that should be commonplace, or any druid choice. eyeball maybe, and if wizards could have owls...

ed: this is not jungle book, I like that.

Te Raven thing is a specific DnD bit, though.

I was under the impression that familiars could speak the languages of their race. They are still magical creatures, after all. Imps probably going to speak Infernal, Mephits the language of their plane, Pseudo's draconic, faeries and faerie dragons sylvan, and eyeballs the Beholder language(it's mentioned they have a language of their own) and possibly common/undercommon.

The real issue comes in with "natural" familiars. Cats, pigs, snakes, etc. In which case no, they can't speak a language, though they may become intelligent enough to understand plenty of it. For the same reason you can't shift into a bear and speak, a bear just can't speak: no natural aptitude for fine pronunciation. The one exception to this is the raven because as is commonly known, they can mimic human sounds very well. So it's not too much of a stretch for a fantasy world to say they can speak a language.

TL;DR Familiar speech rules are pretty much the same as Shifter speech rules. If the creature can naturally speak, it can speak. If it has its own language, then at least that language can be spoken, if nothing else.

Ravens, can yes.

Magical beasts count as their base type for language and can communicate with non-magical animals of the same kind - however, they tend to freak out normal creatures.

Pseudodragon's telepathy from PnP doesn't exist on Amia, I believe at one point the consensus was that they speak Common. Though technically pseudodragons actually do not have the ability to speak in PnP. They most certainly don't speak draconic, normally anyway, its a common misconception. Also that they are cute is a common misconception. I myself think they're cute in the same way that a feline is cute. In that its their personality, not appearance though.

I was under the impression that the Eyeball was ruled as not an actual beholder, but a lesser thing similar to drake vs dragon.

No talking animals, please. If you want a talking animal, make a request.

Except Ravens, which are fine, as long as it is specifically a mage's familiar.

Well! I hate to hijack the thread but... Since the raven thing that Hikriss was asking is addressed...

Can someone tell me what's the Amian rule on Pseudodragons then? One player above said they don't have telepathy. . x .

They don't have telepathy. That's non-negotiable. However, them having learned to speak Common (or some other language appropriate to their master, such as elven for an elven mage) isn't far-fetched to my thinking.

Hmm! Okay! Thanks, Gers.

How about Empathic Link with the master? Where does that fall in on Amia? Pseudodragons or otherwise.

No telepathy.

Wait, okay, so what's the exact DM ruling on how a mage can communicate with their familiar? Is it just spoken?

That would indeed be the implication since we don't allow you to horse around and blatantly metagame via familiar possession with "telepathy", yes.

Telepathy and Empathic Links are different though, so I do want to know you mean both.

Empathic links aren't like telepathy because you can't really communicate sentences or anything like that. It's more, is your familiar scared? And basic emotions and such, hence the root word "Empathy"...

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be that way! xD I just would like to know the official ruling since it came up.

EDIT: Oops... Level 5 ability is a different thing... > ^ <; Empathic link is Level 1 Familiar ability.

Well telepathy normally is a no on Amia anyways. But even if it were allowed for the pseudodragon:

Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet.

It would be limited to 60 feet too so no telepathic communication from maps away.

Well that's cool. I've used my familiar to scout around before, but I played it off as Marcus didn't know anything until his pseudo came back and told him, as if they needed to be right next to each other to communicate. Mind you, that was while I thought familiars had a telepathic link of some sort. In fact, that time was during a big PvP thing in Amia Forest and I made the pseudo fly one and a half maps to Marcus so he could report what he found.

Going forward, obviously, it will be spoken only.

How does a familiar communicate with the mage, then? Is it just the raven that can speak, or can all the mage familiars speak and the raven instance is just for the companion familiar? I want to RP it properly.

The magical sympathetic bond allows communication even if the familiar could not otherwise be understood. If a Fire Mephit only speaks Ignan, the master and familiar still understand each other. A squeaking bat is still understood.

Ohhhh so the mage understands the familiar's 'voice' 100%? That makes perfect sense.

I knows ze raven in pnp can speak but I mean, it should be doable but not all the time =) at least thats the vibe I get.

regarding telepathy, even ghostwise hin can't use their racial specials in amia, this extends to familiars of course, however empathy is for lack of better explaination, you just both know so you work in synchronicity, you could see this as how the AI plays your pet friends but characters that become close to familiars can get creative (wizard gives his familiar a grin and a wink, familiar flanks enemy, etc) or something to that effect.

i've seen the whole familiar as a camera thing work well in pnp (for the enemy lich anyway..) but its probably for the best that possess is reserved for acting as the familiar for a time.

correct me if im wrong, but the empathic link is the reason the wizard suffers (like 5 hp) if the familiar is lost also? so this does not conflict with 'no telepathy' at any rate, or so I believe.

empathy =! telepathy. know your metaphysics =)

no its strain of the magical bond between you and the familiar being severed that causes the loss of HP... at least on amia it is

Well that raises a very interesting question then.

Is the "Possess Familiar" ability on Amia considered an OoC thing just to move the familiar around or is it actually possessing it ICly. I've always RPed it as going into a trance-like state and mentally inhabiting the creature. It's pretty much the only IC way to explain why you just stand there like an idiot while doing it.

In the case that I consider it, there's really no need for telepathy anyway. Since I RP my mage and familiar with an empathetic bond (they can feel each others emotions at a distance), it really was never a problem. *Familiar expresses an strong emotion of fear or anger* *Mage's eyes roll back in his head as he zones out for a second....* *Sees through the creatures eyes* "Someone's setting fire to forest! Quickly, let's go!"

@Dwagin; I believe we've always said they weren't "beholders" in that they aren't nearly as intelligent, powerful, or intricate. But Monster Manual says Beholders speak a language that is understood by all beholderkin. Of course it can be argued that Eyeballs themselves can't speak this language simply because of the wording, but I'm inclined to think they could. Every sort of Beholderkin has a role within the society and I don't see much use of ordering around the small inconspicuous scouts if all they do is grunt when they come back with information.

No, you are not ICly possessing your familiar, and if you've been doing it that way, then you're guilt y of the blatant metagaming I mentioned earlier in the topic and the exact reason why we don't allow the telepathy crap with familiars.

Quote:

@Dwagin; I believe we've always said they weren't "beholders" in that they aren't nearly as intelligent, powerful, or intricate

They are beholderkin, but they're even smaller than Gauths. They speak Beholder.

Then we should have this ruling clearly labeled and described in our Rules and Varia.

There is an ability that says "Possess Familiar" and nothing ICly or OoCly to suggest it isn't what it appears to be. Guilty with no contest if this has always been our ruling, but I can't find for the life of me any place in which we've clarified it. And in the only mention of the mechanics of possession that I can find, it would appear I'm not the only one under this impression.

Apparently I lose the common sense battle again.

I think the confusion is once again the fault of bioware, I couldn't be bothered to check the descript ingame on possess so I dug this up from the lore thread and sure enough, check out empathic link in part 1.

dayfer wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

Rules of the game: Familiars: Parts 1-4. Part 3 has it.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050906a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050913a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050920a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050927a

however >_> maybe its not bioware. because if you read on in part 2 it explains what it means by empathy, and then explains that a wizard can 'feel' where the familiar has been for lack of a better term. it reminds me of something I did once, sending off the familiar to scout an area, familiar dies, snap back to main character, and the only responce you really can have is 'oh dear, im not sure what, but something terrible happened', cliffhanger suspence if your in a party no?

im sure i've seen the trance variant in source before though but since I can't see it right now that'll have to do.

ed: interesting side note, possess or empathic link in theory, shouldn't work in antimagic fields.

ed: I fail on clearness again -_- I checked 3 versions of source and they all say something like this, quote "The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically.", empathy while not telepathy is close enough for confusion. sharing senses is not being two people at once, I think is the only way to unconfuse the situation.

TormakSaber wrote:

No, you are not ICly possessing your familiar, and if you've been doing it that way, then you're guilt y of the blatant metagaming I mentioned earlier in the topic and the exact reason why we don't allow the telepathy crap with familiars.

Thank you for the clearup, I'll take this as DM word.
Out of curiosity, why are the familiars not like the animal companions, in regard to possession?

Because Bioware.

No, it's not possible to add, no, we shouldn't add it if we could. Familiars are magical, companions are not.

A quick question on talking Familiars

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