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Thinking about a possible druid character and doing some reading... I came across something which I'm wondering whether it applies on Amia:

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, p.23 wrote:

Mielikki, who is famous for the number of druid/rangers who worship her, has far more lenient spiritual oaths than most deities that druids worship in the Realms. Druids of Mielikki can use any of the standard armor or weapons that rangers can normally use (all simple and martial weapons, all light and medium armor, and all shields) without violating their spiritual oaths.

And I guess as a corollary question, to what degree are the druidic restrictions on metal weapons and armor actually enforced on Amia?

yes followers of Mielikki can wear what rangers can wear without restriction on Amia... but its only the base class ranger armor that her followers can wear... not full plate... if you go back quite a few pages you can find that in this thread.

They are enforced, and yes, Mieliki's are relaxed.

Thinking about a Mulan Wizard, what, out of the available familiar list, would best be suited for such a character?

Anything thats not a pesedo dragon, A panther or a fey

666WaysToHell wrote:

Thinking about a Mulan Wizard, what, out of the available familiar list, would best be suited for such a character?

Would gravely depend on alignment of that person and faith. Imp could be perfect, but so could a raven.

Edited hawk to raven forgot druid/mage difference there.

666WaysToHell wrote:

Thinking about a Mulan Wizard, what, out of the available familiar list, would best be suited for such a character?

Should qualify it as to what type of Mulan you want.

I don't have an overwhelming lore on the actual foundations of magic, but boy am I interested in learning!

My query is this: Blood Magic, does it exist in the Faerun Realm, and can it be roleplayed on Amia? And if so, are there any reliable sources where I can do some learning? Mind you, this is the basics. If there's already characters out there running around using it, I'm more than willing to research it IC. I'm not exactly willing to skirt all the time a wizard should be spending learning the intricacies of the Arcane, but I wouldn't mind being pointed in the right direction.

At the moment, I'm sort of attributing Empower Spell to the use of blood magic. Thought it was a convenient way to explain an increase in the same spell's power, performed in a different manner.

It exists, but not like you might think it does. A specific DM plot has used it and defined it very well, but in that same definition I'd say you need to make a request for it.

I'd be fine making a request for it, if I knew what it was I was requesting exactly. I'll continue to do research, and I thank you for the feedback. Should I browse the DM events looking for a direction, or should I be speaking to a DM in particular?

Yossarin is the one who defined blood magic.

Would a Jergalite cleric have access to any raise dead spells? Made a jergalite necrocleric And I wasn't sure if he'd grant any of those spells, seeing as he's all about everything ending.

I would think so. Jergal's dogma aside, he's Kelemvor's underling, and it's very much Kel's dogma that no mortal should meet their end before their appointed time, if it's possible.

Rightyo then. Thanks for the response.

RE: blood magic

Yes, I've defined its use for the purposes of Amia. There is no PC out there with access to Blood Magic, though I would like to know who is claiming it. Not that they'll be in trouble or anything, as characters can claim to be using blood magic when in truth they're just using magic with blood as a component. It isn't really the same thing. If you like, you may think of it as "blood magic" and True Blood Magic.

A search for lore these days at the Loremaster's Library and abroad shockingly turns up next to nothing regarding Blood Magic. A few PCs are aware of why this is.

Suffice it to say, the following information is commonly known to people with either a decent Lore skill or to people with a studious arcane background:

Blood Magic was an ancient form of the Ars Magica (the magical arts) that capitalized upon the symbolic relationship between Blood and Life (and many things that Life is symbolically connected to vis a vis the principles of Sympathy and Contagion) in order to affect changes upon people. It was supposedly declared taboo millenium ago, even before the Fall of Netheril. Scholars disagree as to whether the taboo was an edict from the de facto magical rulers of the world at the time (the Netherese) or one of the first divine proclamations of the earliest god of magic. This disagreement primarily gets shelved, however, because blood magic simply isn't talked about or spoken in academic circles because no formula or record or even hint of how to capitalize upon that power exists anymore in the modern world. Discussing it is about as useful as discussing the gustatory habits of the dodo bird - there's very little modern relevance.

From the wiki:

Quote:

Known Saints

Saint Elizabeth

(// This saint has not been yet been dm approved and is not part of Forgotten Realms Lore. She is an amian player homebrewn. //)

Saint Elizabeth was a living saint of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor, who's deeds have become an inspiration to all brethren and sisters of the elite military branch of the Judge of the Dead. She was the embodied incarnation of faith and devotion. She led the Eternal Order in a already deemed lost defense of the Lyonsbane Cathedral, the name lord Kelemvor bore in his mortal days. The uncountable masses of the undead threw themselves against the small number of the Lord's elite again and again, pushing them further into the place of prayer.

In a last desperate attempt to turn the tide, the living saint cut her way through the hordes of undead to their dark master. She fought with great valor and after slaying uncountable numbers of the dark creations of undeath, was struck down. Her courage inspired the few that were left and her death filled the templars with a thirst for vengeance.

The Lyonsbane Cathedral was saved. Her body was buried with the greatest honors, yet her burial site still remains unknown. The remaining few never spoke of her resting place of their beloved martyr. It is however rumored that her armor, the Blessed Vestment of Saint Elizabeth has found itself into the hands of the Chapter of the Guardians of the Martyr-Saint.

Is the story of Saint-Elizabeth part of Amian Lore by now? If so I can just change this to amia homebrewn material instead of leaving it looking all shady.

Its part of a player story and not something we have verified. Its still a nice story though but not really something we approve or dispute in the sense its part of player history.

Allright, we'll leave it as such then.

Hey would luthic grant spells to a ranger?

With rangers you don't need to worry to much about the how and why... just as long as you have a patron and follow his/her dogma you should be alright... I could see a Luthic ranger path finding through caves to find new locations for an orc tribe if you were full blooded... a half-blood would just be more comfortable in the caves that are her domain... knowing how to survive in them and such.

shooting for full blooded orc. just didn't want to get off the lore.

Full blooded orc would need a request, naturally!

Did the Rider Beyond change Maladomini as Glasya changed Malbolge? Or did he keep the layer as it was under Baalzebul?

Regarding the seventh layer, Tormak said this in the "Adding Devilties?" thread:

"The seventh layer is undergoing rennovations from its new lord anyways."

He is indeed changing Maladomini. If I had to make a comparison, I would say it is changing to be most like a mix between Avernus and Dis.

Okay a question!

My character was formally a Pale Master (Level 1) and had a rebuild approved to get rid of Pale Master level to something else.

I wanted a clarification on "Boneskin" feat in terms of Amia. There is no such thing in Libris Mortis, so, I don't really know anything about it or how to RP it, to be perfectly honest.

It was only one level and a path he quickly diverged from after many RPs had taken place. But nonetheless a level is a level. I don't believe just because you had your character approved for rebuild, that your character loses the IC history from the loss of class. So to make up for the technical aspect of it, I took Armor Skin at epic levels, which gives the exact same AC bonus as Boneskin (level 1 PM Boneskin, at least) did.

But the question still remains! How much is one level?

The mastery over undead, which is what Palemasters are known for, is something that is gained starting from 2nd level (Libris Mortis) and undead armor actually only happens from 4th level onward in PnP, not from level 1 (Boneskin is NWN's way of implementing the undead armor thing from PnP, even though Boneskin arguably is much more powerful since it STACKS with normal armor). Deathless vigor, the thing that makes him more like an undead, again, is a much later feat at level 5. Level 6 is the all famous undead graft.

I imagine just like with dragon disciple, one level of those kind of classes really aren't going to affect your body so drastically that anything obvious would happen, but I'm not sure.

If anyone can clarify...

1) What the heck is Boneskin (Since it's a NWN/Amia thing)
2) How different his skin would be from one level of palemaster (Since, as far as I know, that's the only thing you get from Palemaster 1).

I think Level 1 Bonsekin is a lot different, then say, level Level 6 Boneskin, seeing that there's a 4 AC gap, which is a difference between having a studded leather armor and a half plate.

I'm sorry if this was a stupid question. Thank you very much! > u <

You'd have "tougher" skin, different than what Armor Skin might give. Your skin may also be slightly discolored, or pale, or jaundiced in some manner, or perhaps you have flaking problems, or rashes or that sort of thing due to never properly finishing the processes.

TormakSaber wrote:

You'd have "tougher" skin, different than what Armor Skin might give. Your skin may also be slightly discolored, or pale, or jaundiced in some manner, or perhaps you have flaking problems, or rashes or that sort of thing due to never properly finishing the processes.

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&h ... 77l0.4l4l0

this is an example i instantly thought of given tormaks description. psoriasis is a skin problem which causes a hardening of the skin and rashes. my dad has it bad and the only was i can describe it is "lizard skin". its truly horrid. the link above is just a google search and may lead you to something. caution, there are medical pictures of genitals and i strongly suggest you don't look if your squeamish as its pretty gross.

Thank you both for your input!!

This is what I got from Tormak's description.

1) On Amia, Boneskin is a legitimate feat even though it doesn't exist in PnP.

2) It toughens your skin in some fashion + Possible side effects.

So it sounds like it's a pretty interpretive kind of a thing with all that "or" in the description. The point I got from Tormak's description was that there should be something different, but what that is is kinda up to me.

For tsukasa's input, I know what psoriasis is and I don't really know if that makes sense. D: It's not that dead people get psoriasis. Not only that, psoriasis is not a skin condition, but it's a disorder involving your immune system. I just don't really think it fits.

I don't really agree with the "not finishing up properly" part. Like I've mentioned in my opening post, the rebuild to get rid of it was a fairly mechanical thing. If this was PnP where you can have more than 3 classes, I would just leave it there. You can't untake a level in something, but you can chose to stop advancing in something. That's why I wanted to take Armor Skin just to have the piece of my character's past. Not really for the +2 AC bonus. A dragon disciple who only has gone through four levels of disciple isn't going to have adverse side effects just because they didn't complete and become a "half-dragon" (And their change is much more drastic even taking one level of it), I don't think it applies to a Pale Master either.

I do like the possibility of skin being pale or discolored (perhaps partial discoloration) though on top of the "tougher" skin part. I'll have to think more about it.

Thanks again! > u <

I would consider rephrasing that part on DDs... Makes it sound like you believe lvl 10 DD equates to becoming a Half-Dragon, which is false on Amia. Additionally, Draconic aesthetic features increase by DD level. A Lvl 1 DD with armor skin would not have the same well defined scales as a Lvl 10 DD, despite the AC mechanical bonus being the same.

Well, my post really isn't about dragon disciples, so I apologize if something sounded misleading or inaccurate, but thank you for the clarification.

But other than that, everything you just said is exactly what I meant! > u < I do think there is a difference from 1 to 10, too.

Now if you want to get technical about half dragons, in actual dungeons and dragons, from what I have read, half dragons are an ECL of 8. Also the Dragon Discilple class is not half dragon in any form, on Amia over the years it has been played as such, however all Dragon Disciple is a ritual based class, that enhances the draconic blood in a sorcerer or bard. Which means to me that if you are doing dragon disciple, you should have at least five spell levels in order to do the ritual. Also secondly, when it comes to the class without Amia edits, the class is Red Dragon Disciple, which in essence should not be allowed by any good alligned characters, because red dragons are blatantly evil creatures.

This is my stance on the class personally, however because Amia has its own rules that has been established and ways around the red dragon part I think thats a cool thing, but I still think folks should be able to cast up to level 5 spells before taking the class though

With Bard though I would say maybe level two or three spells

To my understanding, the pale master’s skin becomes ‘tough and cadaverous’ when the boneskin feat is obtained. I think this would suggest that it calcifies in some way, and as more pale master rituals are completed, the calcification progresses, just as boneskin scales.

As for the initial appearance of it, I imagine it would be up to the player (within discretion of course). Some pale masters have skin tanner than Snookie’s, others have snowy-white skin; it is up to the players particular aesthetic. For example: I would roleplay a pale master with only the initial bone-skin feat as someone with a fairly taut, tough skin, with a lessened sensitivity to feeling, much like a callous.

Though, all of that above is just opinion, the only thing I know to be fact is that the skin does become tough, and paler, as noted from the NWN2 feat description, and Forgotten Realms Wiki description (Two sources which are somewhat... Unreliable).

NWN 2 Description:

Quote:

Bone Skin
At 1st level, the pale master's tough, cadaverous flesh gives them a +2 natural armor bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and +6 at 8th level.

Forgotten Realms Wiki Description:

Quote:

Bone Skin: A pale master's flesh becomes tough and cadaverous.

Orog skin color...

I noticed all orog npcs around L'Obsul are pale colored. I went by description which said they look like mountain orcs (which look dark on pics

). So am I unusual dark skinned orog or do hues vary from pale to very dark?

dayfer wrote:

Would a Jergalite cleric have access to any raise dead spells? Made a jergalite necrocleric And I wasn't sure if he'd grant any of those spells, seeing as he's all about everything ending.

I definitely think Jergali priests would have the ability, yes. The use of those spells would have to be considered more closely though, for obvious reasons. Even Jergal believes in order in death. If a death is deemed out of order, you set it straight, as a cleric of Jergal.

Consider this little bit from Jergal's dogma:

Quote:

Only death is absolute, and then only at its appointed hour.

Is homicide commonly interpreted as an untimely death in the Jergali and Kelemvoran faith? Is murder clearly distinguished from killing?

Got a small question concerning the beard growth of female dwarves. Everyone seems to have a different take on it. Some say they have the growth, but only the more traditional dwarven women actually let it grow. Others say that in FR or D&D in general, ever since 1st edition they no longer have the facial hair. Is there an amia custom lore about them?

dayfer wrote:

Would a Jergalite cleric have access to any raise dead spells? Made a jergalite necrocleric And I wasn't sure if he'd grant any of those spells, seeing as he's all about everything ending.

Yes, they do. Jergal and his relationship with his worshippers is one of those excellent models for why there is (and must be!) room for variation in manner and interpretation of dogma. His followers are also a very good example of why "the cleric who is exactly like his or her deity" can be a bad thing, even if not from the deity's perspective.

Jergal, the god, has the personal desire to simply see everything end. He desires oblivion, and some might argue, ironically, that he and Shar may have the same ultimate desire. Each is purely nihilistic in their own way, only Shar's model is moving the universe towards "eternal darkness" and Jergal's model is more like moving the universe towards "the end"...which is left entirely up to interpretation and to which the god himself has never really elaborated. What does he mean by "end"? Simply everything in the Material Plane dead and the planar realms populated by its quintessential remnants? The same comforting darkness that Shar promises? Or a kind of Oblivion, capital O, that exists beyond it all, an absolute and utter end to everything, including darkness, the death of everyone and everything that ever was, is, and will be?

It is hard to say and I don't think anyone, even Jergal's followers, make an effort to answer. If you were to sit down with Kelemvor over tea, one of the few deities around who has significant familiarity with Jergal, I fancy that he would tell you that Jergal is an old god whose time passed eons ago and he is ready to die himself...but it just hasn't happened. And that, possibly, Jergal is projecting his own personal desire for the comfort of oblivion onto the world. He is the Seneschal of the Dead, and seems sustained only by his duties in the Fugue Plane these days. Perhaps he feels he can only have his release once he can rest easy, knowing that the world will soon follow.

Or maybe, back in his hey day, he really was a mysterious god of death who took some perhaps sadistic delight in the power of death over life, and how so many people lived their lives with the full knowledge that they will die and can do nothing to stop it but will still try their damndest to halt its progress or delay it. Only now, after having been stomped on, chewed up and spit out by more evil, enterprising, or ambitious gods of death, he has accepted his own fate in a manner similar to the way he has seen countless "elderly" mortals accept their own fate during his long tenure - with a kind of dissociative grace.

Fact is, there really is no interpreting the deity perfectly; Jergal, even moreso than other deities, although no deity should be transparent to their followers.

That said, you can imagine what it must be like to follow Jergal. His followers are not usually strange beings that live forever. The majority of his worshippers are human, but throughout Toril, his followers number only in the hundreds. They are rare, and for obvious reasons. So many people whose lives "death" touches look to the Judge, to Kelemvor, because it is Kelemvor's dogma now that permeates the global conversation about death. Kelemvor has decided it no longer needs to be a mystery to mankind and mankind must be armed with the knowledge of what happens to his soul after death. During Jergal's time, no one knew. (For reference, you can imagine that during Jergal's tenure as a god of death, it was very much like it is today - we lack empirical evidence to suggest anything but oblivion awaits us.)

In a weird sort of way, Kelemvor is Christ-like, but only in as far as Jesus was a verification of God's existence (for those who believe). Since the Time of Troubles, atheism has been nearly impossible (how can you sanely deny the existence of the gods when they walked amongst you just twenty years ago?), and Kelemvor rose to prominence at the climax of the Time of Troubles, so since then, his followers have been tasked with helping people to die peacefully and guaranteeing that they have done all that they need to do in their mortal lives in order to be Judged appropriately according to their beliefs.

Does this mean that Kelemvorites instruct others in how to worship their own gods? No. The best of the Kelemvorites, however, become familiar with the funereal and last rites of many faiths so that they can appropriately inter the bodies, which has many benefits, including reducing their possibility of returning as undead, their spirits restless because something was not done appropriately to allow them to get to the Fugue Plane, and to help them feel comfortable both when facing the imminent horror of dying (everything that has come before it suddenly seeming worthless, moot, wasted time) by letting them know exactly what they have to look forward to: the bureaucracy of the Fugue Plane.

Of course, they have certain smaller, more boring responsibilities, like killing undead and protesting at abortion clinics. Ask your neighborhood EO nerd about them.

I go off on this tangent about Kelemvor so that I can return to Jergal, because he and his followers are understood well by contrast.

Whereas Kelemvor is the Judge and his followers those preparing people for that moment of Judgement, when they stand naked before the Lord of Death, Jergal is the Seneschal and his followers do not so much prepare the people for what comes after death as they prepare death for receiving these people.

Different worshippers have different ideas of precisely what purpose "Death Records" serve to a Jergalite. I doubt even a single one of them even knows, but they all have their suspicions and unique interpretations. Why does Jergal not force his followers into a more uniform state of worship through dogma or direct interaction, as, say, a Bane or a Kelemvor? Probably because he is Divine Rank 1 and has only a matter of hundreds of worshippers, or because he is too old and tired to give a damn, or because it doesn't matter what they believe, so long as they just do what his dogma calls for. Jergal's dogma is not very complicated, but it is very dry, very old, and very secretive. I also intuit it is very declarative in nature, with emphasis on several imperatives (you do this, you do that, you do this, you do that) with very little elaboration given on why.

Some Jergalites believe that when they scribe a Death Record, a "mirror" of it immediately appears somewhere in Jergal's endless library of catalogs in the Crystal Spire on the Fugue Plane, so that within the next 14 days, when the soul is Judged, the record the Jergalite prepared is on hand. Jergalites with this interpretation may experience a sense of "responsibility" to be as accurate (or perhaps as forgiving!) as possible with a death record, believing that it becomes a document which is immediately called forth as evidence during the soul's judgment before Kelemvor.

Some Jergalites believe that not only does a mirror of the Death Record appear immediately, but that record gains some kind metaphysical "legal permanency" (cannot be expunged) when, at the end of the year, the Jergalite ritually burns every document he has created. Others believe the ritual of the burning is merely symbolic, a gesture meant to remind the Jergalite not to believe their own lives have any more value than anyone else's simply because of the "work" they do for Jergal...since all of that year's hard, intense recording is, in a matter of minutes, reduced utterly to ash, never to be read or seen again by living eyes.

Other Jergalites believe that Jergal really has no place in the Crystal Spire even as a Seneschal, and merely retains the title due to pity or reverence on Kelemvor's behalf. They believe that Death Records have absolutely no bearing on the Judgement of the Soul, which is purely in Kelemvor's hands; rather, they believe Death Records hold an oracular significance to Jergal, and that with each Death Record meticulously recorded, a record of it appears somewhere, possibly only in Jergal's head. They believe that there is a "great secret" about the True Nature of Death (not death as in the afterlife, but death as in the great moment of death, the passing, that small gap between living and afterlife soul) that has the power to trump even the afterlife and the outer planes and the gods themselves...because Death is, to them (and perhaps to Jergal), a "natural" force that is even greater than all the bureaucracy and all the stars and all the quintessential energy and all the alternate dimensions and everything, and I mean everything, will one day fall victim to it. If ever you have a Jergalite that is prone towards evil, he (or she, I suppose, though women I wager are much rarer in the faith due to typical gender-conditioning reasons) would probably subscribe to a similar belief, and may be more "proactive" in bringing about the death of the world.

So to answer the question I so long ago quoted: would his clerics have access to raise dead spells? Yes. Consider that one of his domains is Fate. Now that I believe I have established the sliding scale on which an individual Jergalite's belief system can move, you can see how there is room for the individual Jergalite to adopt a sense of "responsibility for the fate of others". Some Jergali, I am sure, can develop...well, not really a god complex, because I seriously doubt any of them possess the required vanity...but can become "confused" about the power they wield over life. Every man has the power of life and death over another man, in truth. You can pick up a shovel and go cut off your neighbor's head if you wanted to. Mortal law (and traditional mortality, and perhaps some ingrained sense of humanity instilled by the goodly gods!) is supposed to keep us from doing these things. But the fact is that it is true, and when a cleric of Jergal has the divine touch of Jergal in him (the ability to cast spells, both Raise Dead and Wail of the Banshee and whatever, spells that both raise from the dead and kill) it becomes clear that he has the capacity to be a "decider" in whether people live or die.

Traditionally, Jergali prefer not to adopt that power, because influence gets in the way of observation, and can bias the very sacred Death Record. But there's always room for some to wander outside of this and, in their own way, attempt to influence life and death. Whether Jergal approves or not is entirely unknown, in my opinion. He may disapprove but lack the will or want to do anything about it. He may disapprove of the method but prefer the outcome. He may actually fall the cleric. Or he might just not notice, period, because he's dreaming of death.

Kelemvorites would not see this kind of Jergalite in a favorable light, as he would seem to be usurping the authority of Kelemvor, who is himself "the Judge". The relationship between Kelemvorites and Jergali is a complicated one. It is strained in some places and fine in others, but it is rarely copasetic, if only due to the fact that there are millions of Kelemvorites and only scant hundreds of Jergali. For every few thousand Kelemvorites in an area, you may only have one Jergalite. I actually cannot stress this difference enough. Jergali are RARE, and with good reasons: in order for Jergal to accept you, and moreso for you to accept Jergal's dogma (everything must die, you must die, you must record everything that dies, death, death, death, death, oh and there's no room for enjoying your own life) you have to be an exceptionally morbid person, have a few screws loose, or suffer from some kind of trauma where the only way you can deal with the trauma is by taking comfort in the concept of oblivion. There's not even really a lot of room for "evil" in there, because evil likes to be self-serving, and there's not really anything about what Jergalites do that is very self-serving. They're probably some of the most humble people you'll ever meet, if only for the fact that they place next to no significant value on anything they do, including their own lives.

Suicide is probably not uncommon in the ranks of the Jergali faith. It is not a punishable offense in the afterlife, after all. In most cases, anyway (some gods may take individual umbrage with the act).

So yes, a Jergalite can and sometimes will raise the dead, but it comes down to the matter of the "appointed hour", that phrase that leaves Jergal's dogma open to the amount of ambiguity it needs to be open to (both IC'ly and OOC'ly).

[quote=Opustus]Is homicide commonly interpreted as an untimely death in the Jergali and Kelemvoran faith? Is murder clearly distinguished from killing?[/quote]

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not. Murder is clearly distinguished from killing only to the extent that a Jergalite, when filling out a Death Record, will cite "murder" if there seems to be some clear, even premeditated murder in cold blood, and perhaps "killing" if it is being killed by someone or something for food, or in self-defense, or in passion, or because they had it coming anyway, or...

I hope you get the picture. It is clearly distinguished but probably only in the eyes of the Recorder. A death is a death is a death, no matter how it happens, and for good measure, the most dogged, the most religious, the most dedicated Jergali record every instance of death, no matter whether there is an intent to raise the dead after that instant of death. The Death Record is as much about the deceased as it is about the instant of death, the moment that it occurs, and this becomes the motivation for why you'll find Jergali hanging out with adventurers or accompanying adventuring parties - they can be right there, looming, a crow perched for a front row seat to capture the "ideal condition" to record a person's death: right when they are dying on the battlefield.

"Appointed hour" gets in the way, though. How does a Jergali determine the appointed hour? Is this just a meaningless, empty phrase that gives a Jergalite an out (or the company of a Jergalite an out, moreso?)

OOC'ly, yes!

IC'ly, who knows? There may be a Jergalite out there who wants to find a Divination cleric type spell that allows him to know a person's "appointed hour", the time of their death, even if not the manner by which they will die. Maybe some Jergali feel that a person who dies too young has not died at the appointed hour, or a person who has not died before accomplishing a certain has not died at the right time.

It might be arrogance for some Jergali to try to even interpret. In my opinion, most do not. Most simply accept that the moment at which a person dies, that is their appointed hour. It may be horrible, it may be unfair, it may even be painful to the Jergalite if, for some reason, they happened to make some kind of interpersonal relationship or friendship with the deceased (such bonds are heavily discouraged in the Jergalite faith for obvious reasons). I am also sure these Jergalite console themselves by doing their very, very best with the Death Record...much in the way some of us in the real world do the same with an obituary, or a wake, or the funeral itself, or that period of time when everyone sits around remembering the person, with stories.

I think the best advice is to find how you are comfortable playing a Jergalite OOC'ly, and then simply adapt your IC belief system (with the aforementioned swing in interpretation) to justify it. Know, though, that playing a Jergalite is probably never going to be a wonderful or pleasing experience, unless you get a real kick out of playing mostly grim, boring people with one-track lives.

Some possibilities for someone dying not at their appointed hour (or justifications for a raise dead):

- Killed by Undead. The undead are themselves an anthema, and Jergali do not like the undead at all. (Even though there are a tiny handful of Jergal's most faithful who have been brought back as sanctioned undead to continue to do his work. No, you will probably never be approved to play one, ever.)

- Slain senselessly, without cause, justification, or motivation, no matter how scant the cause, justification, or motivation may be. An example would be a person being murdered by a random manic psychopath with whom they've had no connection at all, ever, no interaction with, and whom has had no interaction with them ever, at any time. The kind of death, for example, that happens in the real world, but doesn't translate well in, say, fiction writing.

- Murdered children. Some Jergali may feel that children have not had enough time to live life (or alternatively, have not had enough time to grow up and appropriately suffer the gravity of impending death before experiencing death). Children die plentifully from natural causes and should get no reprieve, hence why I say murdered children.

I cannot think of many more examples, but rule of thumb? There's shouldn't really be any, for the most part. If I were to play a Jergalite, I might, say, pick ONE specific instance, an instance that would be relatively rare, in which the Jergalite might feel a person would not die at their appointed hour. If it seems at all merciful, it is probably a bad thing, because "mercy" is not part of Jergal's dogma. If it simply seems cool, rational, or logical (for example, the one about children and interpreting it because they have failed to live long enough to acknowledge death in the first place), then you're probably on the right track.

This begs the question no one has asked yet, of course: can a Jergalite kill people himself? Does that justify the appointed hour? Or is it meddling in what would otherwise be a natural death?

I've thought about this one quite a bit. I think that most Jergali don't go out of their way to kill people, but if travelling with a party of adventurers, say, or if provoked or attacked, don't have any compunctions about killing people, either. Premeditated murder risks a violation of their critical objectivity when making Death Records, and actually probably risks pissing Kelemvor off far more than Jergal, but I am sure it happens (they would clearly be evil worshippers, in most instances). The vast majority of Jergali simply kill when they need to kill, and don't kill when they don't need to kill. The distinction should be simple enough for anyone to figure out. Although they don't value their own lives very much, I don't believe they're so far gone as to throw them away simply by believing they can't defend themselves properly if attacked. That's just silly. Just because they record death all the time doesn't mean they can't be afraid of dying, and dying painfully, themselves. It is probably encouraged!

Euthanasia, though, is what I'm getting at here. It is a social issue a game like DnD doesn't really get into. I am not sure who would be more prone to it: Kelemvorites or Jergali. You can make a case for either.

In the scenario of a family mourning for a loved one dying of consumption, the Kelemvorite will spend many hours speaking to the dying person about his or her life and preparing him or her for that moment of death, explaining the many things he or she needs to do in order to prepare the soul for the afterlife, and what to expect once there. They probably also spend time consoling the family, and making sure that they, too, understand what is going to happen to their loved ones after death, making sure death does not hit them as a great reason for grief, but rather as a time for mourning following by comprehension, understanding, and, if they are so inclined, celebration of life afterwards (Kelemvor's not really big on the celebration part, but accepts that most people need it). If asked to euthanize by the family, they'll probably decline. If asked to euthanize by the dying, they'll probably acquiesce out of mercy.

The Jergali in this scenario has no interest in anyone but the person dying, and so has little reason to talk to them. All they will want to know is details about the dying person for the Death Record. Then they'll want to set up camp nearby, very much like a raven, and just wait for the moment of death to record it, even perhaps going so far as to set up a tent in the yard or ask to live in the person's attic or simply keep vigil in the room of the dead for the number of days it takes for consumption to take the person. If the family asks him to euthanize, he may accept, but only if doing so hastens what would otherwise be a natural death and yields the same results without any threat to the objectivity of the Record. If the dying asks to be euthanized, the Jergalite may accept for the same reasons...or, alternatively, decline...because you may have noticed that one of Jergal's other domains is Suffering.

Jergal is LN. The N is not for "nice". Death is about suffering, and without suffering, Death loses a lot of "weight" and "meaning". This is probably why Kelemvor's tendency towards mercy (at least in his early years, he's starting to become a little grimmer with the weight of the job on his shoulders now) irked Jergal so much at first.

Anyway, this was entirely too long of an answer to a few short questions.

That mirrors my thoughts exactly, but I'm mainly concerned about the Kelemvoran faith, and asked for interpretation on Jergali interpretations for the purposes of compare-and-contrast and personal interest. And yes, you made it clear Jergal's your favourite child, but I can't blame you for that. If I were able to play a cleric of Jergal without getting bored and with the required conscientiousness, believe me, I would. He's by far the most ambiguous and weirdest git in the whole pantheon.

But whether to bring people to justice for the murder of someone is a recurring theme in the EO. The definition of that mystical "appointed hour". I love the theological arguments over practically nothing, but I want to make sure we're not doing something entirely wrong, or breaking a rule or such that already has clear guidelines among the clergy. I like to think the Kellies to have a much goodier and therefore, as it were, a looser take on this, whereas the Jellies would not consider murder unnatural by default at all. Much like you described, so we can skip ahead without further definition.

So far, it has been accepted that different branches of the Order run different duties even due to differences in conviction, but after thinking of how much they conflict with each other, I've come to think if there was a decisive say from above to clear some things up. Kelemvorism being a more cohesive faith than that of Jergal, it seems only reasonable to strive for further clarity.

I've already personally concluded that murder is all right as long as it is justified. What is "justified" can be argued over in game, but I anticipate the paladins and the Inquisition to have very dissenting views on this. How about mass destruction? This is always a significant deviation in the orderly cycle of life and death. If it is a war; rest in peace, you silly rascals. If it is an outright butchery with the spice of "they had it coming, though"; I'm clueless.

What I'm basically asking is if there is a clear distinction in the procedure, or if we can clearly narrow down the scope of what is accepted and what is not, with respect to that "appointed hour". Some seem to think Kelemvor is the good brother of Jergal, but I'd fancy it be more difficult than that. Would a priest of Kelemvor e.g. raise a young woman who slipped to her death on the floor while doing the dishes/cooking/other womanly chores? It doesn't seem unnatural at all, and who are the little sheep to say what's appointed and what's not? Unless it's clearly defined somewhere, of course.

EDIT:

Phearnun wrote:

Got a small question concerning the beard growth of female dwarves. Everyone seems to have a different take on it. Some say they have the growth, but only the more traditional dwarven women actually let it grow. Others say that in FR or D&D in general, ever since 1st edition they no longer have the facial hair. Is there an amia custom lore about them?

I, as an Internet degree dwarf guru, say that not all dwarven women can grow facial hair. At least 50 per cent of the female population can... I'd estimate. (Out of my arse.)

Yossarin wrote:

<Snip>

Before I say anything, that was absolutely fantastic, alot of info to mill over and develop the character.

Eh hem.

Anyhow, in my research of the god I read that he is worshipped by Necromancers, would it be safe to assume a Jergalite cleric would utilise and raise Undead to his own end, or would that be seen as an outright fall and against his dogma?

It's like prison, really. Jergal is Kelemvor's bitch, so a follower of Jergal is a bitch of all the Kellies. That doesn't mean the bitch couldn't do stuff forbidden to her behind her pimp's back. Generally spoken, no, Jergalites don't tend to go against Kelemvor's word, and neither would they want to on account of their own teachings, but a very rare and ancient bunch of Jergal's followers is known to raise undead in extreme cases, all behind Kelemvor's back. But if his followers found out, boy would the bitch get slapped.

Another question, is the Neverwinter plague cannon here?

If you mean the wailing death then yes, as it happened in 1372 DR and Amia follows cannon FR timeline up until the end of 1373 DR.

Amia's Timeline

To put a point on it, no, Opustus, I actually don't believe that there is or even can be a definitive, procedural approach to the subject of right/wrong in life/death, at least not from Kelemvor himself (I reference him over Jergal since really Kelemvor would be making the choice.) And I think Kelemvor is wise enough to know to leave a significant amount of gray area for the interpretation. Doing so tends to prevent the other deities from manipulating and co-opting his portfolio, and it gives him, personally, a lot of leeway as not merely Judge of the Dead, but Judge over the administration of death in life.

In case that doesn't translate well, let me try to give an example. The minute Kelemvor says, "All women who die in childbirth die unnaturally and therefore must be raised if at all possible" is the minute that Asmodeus starts slipping devil seed into mothers, knowing that Kelemvor has justified raising these infernal wombs for constant insemination. Also, the Kelemvorite faith, over the past 20 years, has spread like wildfire and is one of the fastest growing religions on the face of Toril (due to their intense proselytizing and literal "breaking" of the mystery of death). Do not let anyone convince you that the Forgotten Realms are a "medieval" setting universally. It is not. Due to the influence of magic and the gods, primarily, the world can be a fairly progressive place (not to say that it is, by our definition, "progressive", merely that it progresses in social, cultural, and industrial terms), and the policies governing how to deal with the dead must be left flexible in order to acomodate a changing global culture. I do not have any very good examples of this working in Toril atm, but you've thought a lot about the issue, too, and I'm sure you can imagine a scenario wherein coming down with an absolute can not only do irreparable damage to the ultimate goal of preaching the new mystery of death (I call this the EO crisis myself, as the EO focuses so much on the inquisition/eradiction of the undead and so little on the proselytizing and public relations of the Kelemvorite Church), or it can quickly become outpaced by innovations in thought or magic or worldview and undercut the deity's authority by forcing him to adapt and retroactively loosen an absolute. It is wiser to afford the gray area in the first place than reneg later, most especially because doing so is a traditional means of brokering powers in the hands of the one person who needs it most - the broker, aka, Kelemvor.

That little note about the EO is not inflammatory, btw. I've always liked their heavy-handed approach and antagonism, especially when they have this wonderful justification that "because we go out there and are so aggressive in facing the evils of undeath and heresies against Life, the people love us all the more; we eradicate what they fear and in doing so earn their love, and this is all the PR we require".

You'll forgive me if I'm putting words in the faction's mouth. Note it is just my personal interpretation, but I think it is a good one!

On the note of personal interpretation, I really think, Opustus, that this is how you will have to come down on these matters you want clarification upon. If you want order and procedure, you have to declare it, not from the god, but from someone who believes (hopes) he or she is speaking on behalf of the god, because I believe I have justified why Kelemvor has an interest in maintaining a gray area. The minute you start trying to define the appointed hour and who deserves to die and who deserves not to die, you are bound to isolate and ostracize SOMEONE, and Kelemvor probably realizes he will rapidly find himself in the same unfortunate situation that incarnation of Mystra was in when she decided to restrict Magic from evil people. Magic is a powerful portfolio and Ao made it very clear that she wasn't allowed to be picky with it along alignment lines. Kelemvor's portfolio of Death, likewise, is a heavily influential portfolio and likely subject to the same policy, thus if he were to go balls to the wall LN and start making up all kinds of microlaws, these microlaws governing death would become so out of hand in their effort to be fair and balanced that the entire system might threaten to collapse at one ill-timed death.

Again, the gray area leaves him very personally responsible for a lot, and "personal responsibility" seems indicative of Kelemvor's character.

His followers, in my opinion, encounter these same kinds of concerns you are voicing and they probably handle it with annual conferences or something of the like. I'll bet there's a convocation every year where people get together to try to decide collectively on a current "hot button issue" regarding a life and death matter. Like, last year, they met in Amn to discuss "The Deaths of the Incarcerated: An Exploration of the Complex Mortality in Toril's Prisons and it's Bearing on the Afterlife", where they have to discuss some very harsh details about what kinds of executions are justified deaths and what kinds of state leaders have the power to decide upon death and you can imagine that such a large meeting from such a fast-growing and influential church attracts many emissaries of world leaders bidding to make sure that their tribal elder or caliphate or whatever retains his or her ability to cry "Orv wiv' their 'eads!"

And maybe this year's big discussion is related to a sudden expose of the Jergalite Faith: "Should the Jergali be Allowed to Continue to Render their most Faithful Doomscribes Undead? The Seneschal Under Fire!"

This may seem too modernistic to you, but like I said, I don't see Forgotten Realms as remotely medieval to the influence of magic and the gods, which can be so utilitarian that it is hard to imagine such an archaic society. But even if you do like it more medieval, such a thing can still happen. We both know organizations even in medieval times held annual or bi-annual conventions to discuss important matters of "global" interest.

On your own initiative you might attempt to organize such a discussion in an effort to establish your own guideline to follow. If your worry is that Kelemvor will outright fall you for doing the wrong thing...well, that is a legitimate fear. Deities control this kind of power. Those who watch and really have a vested interest in controlling their followers (Kelemvor does, Jergal not so much) will yank the rug out from underneath their followers and Fall them right away...but there's always the other side of the coin: Atonement. Atonement is the anticipated response to being Fallen - it is the god's directly indirect way of saying, "You're fucking up, and now you need to do some searching, be it in the soul, in the distant houses of your own faith that you've long forgotten, or in pursuit of a quest of whatever to find your way back to where I want you to be."

So if you make a wrong decision about life/death, you'll know soon enough. And then you can embark on the hard but highly rewarding road to comprehending the deeper mysteries of Kelemvor.

Quote:

Anyhow, in my research of the god I read that he is worshipped by Necromancers, would it be safe to assume a Jergalite cleric would utilise and raise Undead to his own end, or would that be seen as an outright fall and against his dogma?

Outright Fall and very much against his dogma, for the most part. Note, though, that "necromancers" does not necessarily imply "those who raise the dead". There are plenty of Wizards who specialize in the school of Necromancy who probably worship Kelemvor/Jergal and don't ever use those nasty undead creation spells, but rather stick with the debuffing, negative energy style stuff, the entropic magic of necromancy. Necromancy is not necessarily synonymous with raising a legion of the dead. Necromancy as a study is "the exploration of the razor thin line between life and death". Necromancy as an Art is "the exploitation of the razor thin line between life and death", which may or may not include creating undead. If it does, you can be certain that neither Kelemvor nor Jergal really care for it.

Jergal only seems slightly more forgiving for the following reasons: he has so few followers, has such a small presence in the divine world, and, in fact, does have a very, very, very old, pre-Kelemvorite tradition of rendering some of his oldest followers into undead beings that simply live forever to scribe Death Records. They aren't mindless undead or anything, they're sentient Undead and Undeath is simply what gives them their immortality on the Material Plane to do his work.

Followers of Jergal have been kicking undead ass intermittently over many generations, but never with much gusto. Their followers simply are not very passionate people in the grand scheme of things, and the whole Record of Death business is more important to them than the eradication of the undead. This, however, does not mean that the creation of the undead suddenly becomes ok for them.

There ARE sects of the Jergali that do condone the raising of the undead in order to serve them, all under Kelemvor's nose, but I wouldn't recommend going that route at all. Not at all. They are good at what they do and do what they do for very specific reasons you know nothing about, and if you were to try to do it yourself, IC, you'd probably just get Fallen.

Opustus is also very right about the Jergal-Kelemvor relationship, in most followers of Jergal being the bitches of most followers of Kelemvor. It is absolutely true. It is part of why I said their relationship is very complicated and can be anything from lukewarm to antagonistic (it is very, very rarely an openly friendly one). Some Kelemvorites show Jergali a degree of respect for a variety of reasons: they were older, they were there first, they're very weird people or extremely dedicated people, or because the Kelemvorite pities them (for the reasons I mentioned in the last post about what kind of people are drawn to being Doomscribes). Others simply assume that because Jergal is Kelemvor's Seneschal in the Crystal Spire, that all mortal Jergali likewise live to aid (if not outright serve) Kelemvorites. Most probably never meet one.

And yeah, Opustus, Jergali are cool, but Kelemvorites are much more "user-friendly" to roleplay, for a lot of reasons.

Yossarin wrote:

Outright Fall and very much against his dogma, for the most part.

Thanks, seems I'm going with Repose and Suffering then.

Thanks all for the help and answers, especially for Yoss for being... well, epic.

A part of making adamantine golems is binding an earth essence (from an earth elemental) to it. Is there a precedent, or possible, in substituting it with something else? Like a soul or another elemental essence?

Requesting information on Father Darian's Asylum in Caraigh, for reference for the creation of a character I have in mind. Post here or send me PMs!

Thanks for your insight, Yoss. This, as you put it, puts a point on it, and was very interesting to read.

Genar_Detkasa wrote:

A part of making adamantine golems is binding an earth essence (from an earth elemental) to it. Is there a precedent, or possible, in substituting it with something else? Like a soul or another elemental essence?

All golemology specifically entails binding an elemental spirit into the golem for it to function.

Few things! Here I am, playing a monk- and I'm gettin' curious.

I've been looking up all kinds of lore for it, and I haven't found anything really substantial. I have two questions regarding monks.

Question 1: "Perfect self and the Color of Ki"
- Once a monk achieves perfection in training, he gets immunity to mind-effecting spells and those glowing eyes. We all know the various alignments involved with each color- but my question is this: Why is there a color for such an alignment? How is the color of ki (Or his aura, or whatever it really -is-) determined? Are there ever examples of monks who's perfect self glows with a different color? Much like Dragon Disciples choosing the color of their specific dragon type, would a monk's ki be that different?

Question 2: "What happens when a Spell is Resisted?"
- I'm talking physically. Obviously, there's things left up to the creativity of the roleplayer. But, for example- does the spell just fizzle? Hit him, but not do anything? Does the monk deflect the beam into the ground? Or can he say, catch a magic missile and watch it fizzle in his hands? Where are the limits to our creativity here?

Edit:
Found Mechanical Answer to Question 1 Here I guess if the mechanics can't support it at all..? Hm.

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