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[ 35 posts ] |
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epicbossmode
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 Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 2:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Recently, I have been told by a drow player that there is a spell that enchants a drow with a mask that shields the caster's face with a shadow-like appearance. Was I misled to assume this spell does exist? From my research, I noticed that the only one that fits such a function is only available to Vhaerunian priests; Quote: 4th Level
Dark Embrace (Pr 4; Conjuration/Summoning)
Sphere: Combat
Range: 10 yards+10 yards/level
Components: V
Duration: 1 tum+1 round/level or until used
Casting Time: 7
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: Special
This spell manifests as a dark shadow that flits about the spellcaster for a few moments before coalescing into a half-mask of black velvet on the spellcaster's face. Vhaeraun's dark embrace lasts for at most 1 turn plus 1 round per level of the spellcaster before dissipating into nothingness. Once clad in the black half-mask created by Vhaeraun's dark embrace- although not in the same round in which the dark embrace is cast-a priest can unleash another memorized spell of 3rd level or less with a single word of power: in other words, a casting time of 1. Such spells must be touch spells or must be area effect spells that have no physical manifestation. For example, cause light wounds or hold person could be delivered by a dark embrace, but a flame strike could not.
Upon the utterance of the command word, the black half-mask dissolves once again into a dark shadow that then moves to envelop the intended target. The dark embrace acts as a carrier of the second spell: No magic resistance check or saving throw is allowed against it. Instead, the target creatures receives magic resistance checks and saving throws only against the spell delivered. Such magic resistance checks are made with a -10% penalty, and all saving throws are made with -3 penalty. Only the target creature is affected by the transferred spell, even if it is normally an area effect spell.
If the spell transferred by means of a dark embrace requires a holy symbol as a material component, the black half-mask created by the dark embrace serves as such. ^ Stil, I suppose it's just a half-mask, so.... it would throw whatever salvation for the drow out of the window. Also, am thinking that wouldn't a consent to pnp spells be asked firstly? Oh, not trying to air dirty laundry here - just curious to know does the spell exist since my DnD/Forgotten Realm sourcebooks (mind you, was never used in an actual pnp game) were burnt to ashes in a fire 
_________________
Slaenvir - Quessir Fanatic
Karavas - Wonky elf bastard
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ainjyll
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 3:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Well, using the WYSIWYG rule, Shadow Shield conceals the user's subrace. A drow would look like any other elf. I know this was recently discussed somewhere, but I can't for the life of me find the thread right now, perhaps someone else can link to it.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Bini
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 3:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Would true seeing allow one to see through the shadowshield's concealment?
_________________ feel the blood gushing from your anusONE feel the blood gushing from your anus
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Gers
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 3:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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TS allows you to see through darkness, so I'd think it would. But don't quote me on that. Let some other DMs weigh in first.
_________________  Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 3:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Gers
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 3:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Here's the SRD entry for it: True Seeing wrote: You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance. Based on the bolded part, I'd actually say it wouldn't penetrate the mask so long as it's coalesced into black velvet. _________________ Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
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hendrack
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 4:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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With Amia TS not being TS, this is kinda moot.
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Drakos_Vek
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 4:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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Since it's loosely related to disguises, does true seeing also see through polymorph and shapechange? Another player told me it doe see through the first, but not the latter. What's the DM's stance on this?
_________________ Kerath Zau'tar - Underdark commander and thief - Scheming and lurking. Derryn de'Drenise - Watcher of Helm - Scolder of witches and wizards
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Gers
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 4:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Far as I know, TS sees through both polymorph and shapechange, but not through true shapeshifting, like what shifters, lycanthropes, and fey do with the elf <---> fey form widget
_________________ Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
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Moonfighter
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 4:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2011
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In response to OP;
If it's a PnP spell/ability, then it requires consent.
If it's a NWN spell/ability, then there are a few which could cover the skin. They are Barkskin, Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin and Shadowshield. True Seeing sees through all of these, as they are magical effects. (Unless the DM's rule differently for Amia.)
For that particular spell mentioned, TS would not see through it. The mask becomes actual velvet according to the spell. Even still, it's only a half-mask, so a Drow's skin would still be seen. I doubt the player was referring to this spell, if they wanted to hide their entire face. However, I can't think of any other spells which would do this in PnP.
_________________
Ansrivarr - Black Archer
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ainjyll
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 5:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Gers wrote: Here's the SRD entry for it: True Seeing wrote: It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. Based on that, I'd say that it doesn't penetrate stoneskin, barkskin or shadowshield. _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 5:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Easily avoided. You are are dark and blurry or covered in bark or whatnot. No settlement would be so asinine and foolish to let you parade around in their city or enter it that way (to me at least).
pnp spells need to ask for permission anyways. So player to player it could vary?
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 6:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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DerkDerkistan
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 6:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth
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ainjyll wrote: Gers wrote: Here's the SRD entry for it: True Seeing wrote: It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. Based on that, I'd say that it doesn't penetrate stoneskin, barkskin or shadowshield. I'll point out that none of those spells grant concealment.
_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
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Moonfighter
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 6:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2011
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For Barkskin, Stoneskin and Shadowshield you could also point to this part of the quote: Quote: You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Looking mostly at "See all things as they actually are", "sees through illusions", and "sees the true form..etc".
_________________
Ansrivarr - Black Archer
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epicbossmode
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 6:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Those responses work for me.
Another question; having hoods on does not cover one's face fully - is that right according to a DM ruling awhile back ( I was informed by someone, and it makes sense if you're looking directly at the said person's face where it's 'unhooded'. )
_________________
Slaenvir - Quessir Fanatic
Karavas - Wonky elf bastard
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serbiris
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 6:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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In the case of stoneskin, "as they actually are" happens to include "covered in a layer of material". TS's entry is pretty specific about what it pierces--stoneskin isn't a transmutation/polymorph of the flesh, it's a protective barrier.
As for hoods: One could always be wearing a mask/veil underneath the hood. Situational, but if I ever do that I make sure to point out the face is covered by more than just the shadow of the hood.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Uberuce
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 7:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Like GreatPigeon said, all of the above is pretty much made irrelevant when you can reasonably assume any PC or NPC guarding a place will insist on a strict Face or GTFO rule.
cf: I can't think of a surer way of getting a gloved hand up your chuff than trying to get through airport security with your face covered and arguing that they shouldn't worry about it.
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Feonir
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 10:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.
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I deeply enjoy how folk keep drawing these paralel's to real life security which a town guard is a league apart from some highschool rent a cop drop out.
Of course you could avoid all these "Do I see through their shitty disguise or not." Shenanigans by having a 105 spot. Unless we arent going off the Spot/Bluff mechanic anymore. Which always made the most sense because someone can just say they are good at a thing but those who want to be masters of disgusie and espionage usually will want some ranks in a skill to back up the words.
Otherwise why bother tanking valuable skill points in anything but Spot/Discipline and other PvP viable skills again?
_________________  "I'm going to spend all my money on ale and whores." "Okay roll for whores." "That's 1d4 whores right?"
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Dieu_Le_Fera
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 12:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia
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thats what bothers me the most about disguises because in some ways it feels almost like the player is god gaming because they wont give any chance for another player to see through them... and anyone who plays a guard of any area has experienced it...
I just would like some set standard in seeing through a disguise set it would save a lot of time having to go OOC or go into tells about just how the character is disguised.
_________________  "It is by the holy beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning, it is by Java alone that I set my mind in motion."
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epicbossmode
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 13:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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I believe if the character were to make a point to force anyone using their authority that (this is extended to people that have even met briefly in the past but are uncertain about) they deem suspicious (simply because they dress in black, have a hood and just seems downright suspicious) to strip themselves, it would be a viable thing to do.
Maybe if the person was dressed in pink and rainbow colors, and has a certain *cough* wrongness * cough* about them they might just be able to scare any suspicion away.
_________________
Slaenvir - Quessir Fanatic
Karavas - Wonky elf bastard
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 22:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Dieu_Le_Fera wrote: thats what bothers me the most about disguises because in some ways it feels almost like the player is god gaming because they wont give any chance for another player to see through them... and anyone who plays a guard of any area has experienced it...
I just would like some set standard in seeing through a disguise set it would save a lot of time having to go OOC or go into tells about just how the character is disguised. The reverse is true also. No guard will give a criminal any chance at being disguised.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 23:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Dieu_Le_Fera wrote: thats what bothers me the most about disguises because in some ways it feels almost like the player is god gaming because they wont give any chance for another player to see through them... and anyone who plays a guard of any area has experienced it...
I just would like some set standard in seeing through a disguise set it would save a lot of time having to go OOC or go into tells about just how the character is disguised. The reverse is true also. No guard will give a criminal any chance at being disguised. It's hard to be fair with disguises as a guard for an area, and you notice someone disguised as a player. There is definitely an apprehension about the potential of metagaming because you see the character name. I try to give them a berth of doubt, usually, so the disguised person can have an opportunity to try and do what they came for. However, when the disguised person starts loitering and doing nothing but idling in my area for more than a couple minutes, I figure its a reasonable amount of time to start being suspicious of the person. _________________  "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 23:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Oh yea, I'm just stating the reverse is true. That people need to be aware that even though you feel like guards may be never letting you through, or people in disguise are constantly never giving the chance to be discovered, the other guy is probably feeling just as frustrated.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Mon, Sep 05 2011, 23:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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And I agree with you.  I think in some indirect way, I was getting at that it's possible to play nice with some kind of middle ground, but my brain isn't working well enough to make that obvious.  _________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Sep 06 2011, 8:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Didn't read topic.
OP is a 2nd edition spell and not valid for NWN.
You all just wasted your time.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Alkor
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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hendrack wrote: With Amia TS not being TS, this is kinda moot. TormakSaber wrote: Didn't read topic.
OP is a 2nd edition spell and not valid for NWN.
You all just wasted your time. So how are we to treat the spell(mechanically called True Seeing) that 'is' valid in NWN, and used in Amia. In relation to disguises, or spells that cover the appearance (such as stoneskin, barkskin, shadowshield, or polymorph)? Does it pierce or not? If so, which ones? There's more in this topic than just the OP's question. ainjyll wrote: Gers wrote: Here's the SRD entry for it: True Seeing wrote: It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. Based on that, I'd say that it doesn't penetrate stoneskin, barkskin or shadowshield. Does this apply to Amia's TS?
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Amia TS is see invis and +10 spot. If in doubt, call a DM and roll spot is my advise. Need DM supervision anyway when trespassing and if not in a town, kill and ask questions later?
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Alkor
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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hendrack wrote: Amia TS is see invis and +10 spot. If in doubt, call a DM and roll spot is my advise. Need DM supervision anyway when trespassing and if not in a town, kill and ask questions later? I am not referring to just towns or NPC's. Quote: So how are we to treat the spell(mechanically called True Seeing) that 'is' valid in NWN, and used in Amia. In relation to disguises, or spells that cover the appearance (such as stoneskin, barkskin, shadowshield, or polymorph)?
Does it pierce or not? If so, which ones?
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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hendrack wrote: kill and ask questions later?
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Alkor
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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hendrack wrote: hendrack wrote: kill and ask questions later? So your saying ignore all of the above potential disguises, read their name floating above their head, assume your character knows, kill them, and ask questions later. I'd like a Dm's verdict on this, no offense.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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-Cloak-and-Dagger-
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
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"True seeing", the Amian Spell, gives a slight increase to visual acuity and grants the "See Invisibility" effect.
It sees Invisible things as Translucent things.
It cannot see through wood, stone, shadow, polymorph or frilly lingerie.
The actual True Seeing effect (Its debatable whether or not this actually exists in the gameworld - a P&P Umberhulk has Tremorsense and a P&P Dragon Blindsense, they can't actually see everything, just know when something is there) would see through Invisibility, Darkness (Including Magical Darkness), and Shapechanging. It cannot see through solid objects - Wood, Stone - Or Disguise.
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hendrack
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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So tell me, in what situations are you going to ponder about a disguise?
When you level with other characters?
When you are guarding something?
Out of interest?
If your character has a reason to be suspicious, ask them to remove their buffs and failure to comply means to either get the fuck elsewhre or suffer not nice things. Those spells are not disguises, they are spells and to be treated as that, imo. Unless you're standing in Cordor East it would arouse some interest at least why someones walking around like a christmas tree.
So in that regard TS is completely irrelevant and the wrong approach to solve things, imo.
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Alkor
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Posted: Thu, Sep 08 2011, 15:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Somewhere on a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of a universe.
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-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote: "True seeing", the Amian Spell, gives a slight increase to visual acuity and grants the "See Invisibility" effect.
It sees Invisible things as Translucent things.
It cannot see through wood, stone, shadow, polymorph or frilly lingerie.
The actual True Seeing effect (Its debatable whether or not this actually exists in the gameworld - a P&P Umberhulk has Tremorsense and a P&P Dragon Blindsense, they can't actually see everything, just know when something is there) would see through Invisibility, Darkness (Including Magical Darkness), and Shapechanging. It cannot see through solid objects - Wood, Stone - Or Disguise. Thank you Cloak, that was exactly what I was looking for. If a DM would be kind enough to back that, I'm all good on the TS points. The only question I have remaining is the interaction with other PC characters. I've asked in the past and was informed that disguises, specifically, are normally things needing DM supervision. The spells' shielding wasn't mentioned though, nor was it on my mind at the time. For example, a drow who is hiding their appearance by use of such a spell to mask their race. Or perhaps even a hated enemy among two rivals, shielding their appearance. Yes, obviously they can be suspicious and ask the removal of such, but the point I'm getting at here is whether or not they get 'instant identity knowledge' of the character. As per descriptions I'd say they do not 'know', however of course, educated guesses are normal.
_________________
When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.
Let's make it, not over.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Sep 09 2011, 7:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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As far as I'm concerned shadow shield, stoneskin and barkskin don't "Disguise" to stop you from IDing a character. It's like looking at someone when they have shiny black facepaint on. You still know who it is, someone just painted them.
I "suppose" you might not be able to pinpoint beyond "elf" but there's plenty of other ways to tell. Eyes, garments, etc.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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