AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

i don't know the time line of forgotten realms well but could a PC be a worshiper of Tyche and then after her death/split follow both Beshaba and Tymora?

I would assume that you could worship Tymora and then make offerings to try and get Beshaba to turn a blind eye to you, as it were. I have a Beshaba follower who hates her and curses her name, but then offers prayers and stuff to try and rid herself of bad luck.

Tyche died ageeees ago. Like, centuries and centuries and centuries and... etc.

So your PC wouldn't be a worshiper of her. That said, even my own PC pays passing respect to both Tymora and Beshaba. How they would do so would depend largely on your PC's attitude and alignment - if they were good, it seems hard to believe they would obey all of Beshaba's tennants, as they state to spread fear in the hearts of non-believers and destroy Tymorans. However, respecting both fortune and misfortune is perfectly believable. Obviously, a cleric wouldn't work, but you have a lot of freedom otherwise.

alright, thanks
does Amia have an approximate time zone?

"Tyche was the original goddess of fortune. An ancient goddess, she was split into Tymora (goddess of good luck) and Beshaba (goddess of misfortune) before the rising of the Standing Stone (1 DR). "

It's 1378 or 1379, I forget.

1379 DR.

And we're not even remotely in the same time when Tyche was around. That was back during when Tyche was in the Netherese Pantheon, before the Fall of Netheril. The fall of Netheril was -339 DR, so...yeah, literally centuries ago. It's over 1000 years later. There are barely any humanoids that live that long, and the ones that do(elves) likely worshiped something other than the Netherese(human) gods.

Amia is currently 1380 DR, 2nd of Tarsakh. Shaundakul's Holy Day is March 15th.

2nd of Ches. 15 Tarsakh is Tax Day!

Tyche is probably still known to scholars, if not worshiped to any meaningful extent. I guess it wouldn't be completely unfeasible to play a history buff obsessed with Netheril and worshiping its gods. We have plenty of comical neo-pagans in our day, too. But yeah, what others said in any normal circumstance.

I agree with Iron - I don't necessarily see the issue with a PC worshipping an already deceased Deity. In respects to our times it happens quite frequently (and one could say all believers worship dead gods) - However, it is quite feasible.

I would be interested in seeing more PCs digging up the historical lore of the realms and building upon their own flaws and fallacies. It's what makes a character whole.

The Peacock wrote:

I agree with Iron - I don't necessarily see the issue with a PC worshipping an already deceased Deity.

How about clerics? Dead powers can't grant spells can they?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

The Peacock wrote:

I agree with Iron - I don't necessarily see the issue with a PC worshipping an already deceased Deity.

How about clerics? Dead powers can't grant spells can they?

Just because a cleric gets spells, doesn't mean they're coming from where she thinks/hopes they're coming from.

Yes, you can get spells from a large selection of dead deities. There's two feats for something like this: Servant of the Fallen lets you worship dead gods, whereas Heretic of the Faith means you're part of a heresy (and can be within two steps of your patron's alignment) but you nonetheless gets powers from their god or someone else. The latter especially is subject to DM approval, though.

There is the Dark Moon Heresy which maintains that Selûne and Shar are two faces of the same goddess, so something like that concerning Tyche, Tymora and Beshaba wouldn't be too unbelievable. A safer bet would be the Servant of the Fallen solution. In game terms, Servants of the Fallen can't cast Commune (and don't get divine guidance) and take a -4 penalty to their Leadership score. Tyche is not mentioned among the most popular dead deities to worship in Lost Empires of Faerûn, though. (Probably because she didn't exactly die.) That list of "safe choices" includes Amaunator, Auppenser, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Ramman and Tchazzar. I don't see why you couldn't be trying to revive Tyche's faith too, either as a Tymoran/Beshaban heresy or a historical reconstruction. You might need to get a DM go-ahead for it, but it doesn't really matter too much in the Realms whether your god is alive and real or not.

You'd probably be a pretty strange PC with obscure motives to want to do something like that, I guess.

Dark Immolation wrote:

It's over 1000 years later. There are barely any humanoids that live that long, and the ones that do(elves)

Elves can live up to 700 years, it's in the PHB.

Tolkien's Elves lived for up to 3000 years I think. (Elrond was a half-elf, and he was around 1500 years old.)

IronAngel wrote:

it doesn't really matter too much in the Realms whether your god is alive and real or not.

If a divine class worships Ao, then where do the spells come from?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

it doesn't really matter too much in the Realms whether your god is alive and real or not.

If a divine class worships Ao, then where do the spells come from?

Durr, I beg pardon Iron?

Last I checked, a god being dead means that unless another god's picked up the portfolio and doesn't mind granting powers to that old god's followers, they're up the creek.

Grymia wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

it doesn't really matter too much in the Realms whether your god is alive and real or not.

If a divine class worships Ao, then where do the spells come from?

Durr, I beg pardon Iron?

Last I checked, a god being dead means that unless another god's picked up the portfolio and doesn't mind granting powers to that old god's followers, they're up the creek.

Ao's spells come from Ao, IIRC. He just doesn't give a damn about Mortals otherwise and is simply "thought to be dead" as he only grants spells in odd times or on whims as I understand it.

Grymia, the feat that makes dead god worship possible, Servant of the Fallen, is mentioned not even 4 posts ago... The question is redundant.

Ao doesn't grant spells, and Ao's worshipers don't get spells. I never said otherwise.

I'm not interested in speculating how and why some people get spells from some sources and others don't from others. I don't presume to know the divine secrets and metaphysical rules of an imaginary world. I'm just relating the facts with as little interpretation as possible.

Ao is the gods god. You actually need Divine Rank to worship Ao with effects.

He also has such high Divine Rank he no longer even needs worshipers of any kind. So yeah if you are mortal or Divine Rank 0, he doesn't care about you. Since Amia most likely will never get into Divine Ranks for characters Ao will never have followers here with perks.

I think that could be fun for a plot though, making someone have to suffer the constant need of worshipers due to their Divine rank. I'd have to look up more of the details on the effects of different Divine Ranks though, its been a long time.

Divine Rank is bad to give to a Pc, trust me.

Do faithless clerics get spells on Amia?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Do faithless clerics get spells on Amia?

That's... pretty much a paradox in FR. Can't have a (functioning) cleric without a deity, it'd be like trying to have a light bulb shine without a power source.

The only place clerics work without deities are settings like Black Sun and Ebberon. And maybe a few others.

I seem to recalling Recently dead powers sometimes grant powers?

Well yes, there's a feat called Servant of the Fallen that allows clerics of dead deities. It's like even though the god has "died" their divine mass and energy still remains behind, slowly ebbing away, and the Servant can use that energy. But during this time, if their worship were to somehow return or bolster, they can be brought back from death themselves. Even for gods, death is reversible.

But my statement remains true. You need a deity for a cleric. Even if its a dead deity. Unless you're talking Ur-Priest which really is still a cleric, just stealing power rather than praying for or earning it.

I hate even thinking about the idea of godless clerics. So dumb. >.>

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Do faithless clerics get spells on Amia?

Go look up Ur-Priest.

That would require DM approval, anyway. I personally think it's unfitting for the Realms.

So seriously? If someone made a cleric with plant and travel domain with no deity field, he can't cast spells?

IronAngel wrote:

That would require DM approval, anyway. I personally think it's unfitting for the Realms.

Not to mention it literally makes you an enemy of any and every clergy. Ur-Priests steal the power and prayers of a deity. It's not something any god appreciates.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

So seriously? If someone made a cleric with plant and travel domain with no deity field, he can't cast spells?

I'm not sure if Amia's implemented something mechanically that prevents it, but you would not be able to without a deity from a IC perspective, no. That's why cleric is fucking cleric.

Yep, no scripted enforcement. There's never been any need for that, so making a perfect system would be a giant waste of time.

IronAngel wrote:

Yep, no scripted enforcement. There's never been any need for that, so making a perfect system would be a giant waste of time.

I want to see script that makes cleric domains match deity domains or fall.

And if you can only choose one matching domain due to NWN shortcomings?

hendrack wrote:

And if you can only choose one matching domain due to NWN shortcomings?

You mean unsupported deities?
You do not get domain spells for unsupported deities then.

Unfeasible, because the deity system is not comprehensive nor was it ever meant to be. When it was introduced, we were quite aware that it would never be perfect and cover every exception and therefore should be a fun addition rather than a basis for rules enforcement. That's in addition to the lacking domain supply. Don't complicate things with scripts when you can just make a rule and hold people to it. That's how every character creation rule is enforced, quite succesfully. The DMs said they're already discussing it, though.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You mean unsupported deities?
You do not get domain spells for unsupported deities then.

No. For example Shevarash has Chaos, Elf, Retribution and War domains. I can choose War, but none of the others in NWN. What now?

hendrack wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You mean unsupported deities?
You do not get domain spells for unsupported deities then.

No. For example Shevarash has Chaos, Elf, Retribution and War domains. I can choose War, but none of the others in NWN. What now?

You take it like a man and say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" to the team responsible for bringing you NWN. You then try your best to find a domain that offers spells closely related to your god's other domains (though most folks just say 'Ooh! Travel Domain gives me haste!' and call it quits from there).

As an aside, IMHO, only clerics with deities with the travel domain should be allowed to take it, but sadly there is no way to enforce such.

DustSpray101 wrote:

hendrack wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You mean unsupported deities?
You do not get domain spells for unsupported deities then.

No. For example Shevarash has Chaos, Elf, Retribution and War domains. I can choose War, but none of the others in NWN. What now?

You take it like a man and say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" to the team responsible for bringing you NWN. You then try your best to find a domain that offers spells closely related to your god's other domains (though most folks just say 'Ooh! Travel Domain gives me haste!' and call it quits from there).

Except that Hendrack was responding to Dramatic Prince's suggestion that clerics with incorrect domains should automatically Fall, so he couldn't choose something else no matter how appropriate.

This is one of the reasons it's better to have reasonable humans enforcing flexible rules rather than make everything automated. Don't trust the machines!

hendrack wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You mean unsupported deities?
You do not get domain spells for unsupported deities then.

No. For example Shevarash has Chaos, Elf, Retribution and War domains. I can choose War, but none of the others in NWN. What now?

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/deities.php

Good argument.

On Amia, his domains are Destruction, Strength and War. So choose among those?

I agree with Iron though, in that forcing people to choose only gods with idols in the module is silly.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

... forcing people to choose only gods with idols in the module is silly.

Why? We already force people to choose only from the races supported by the module, only from the classes supported by the module, only from the gear supported by the module, et cetera. Why should they be able to go outside the module to choose their gods? If a player has the right to worship, say, the Eight Million Gods, why doesn't she also have the right to play an arquebus-wielding hengeyokai wu jen?

Because gods are a lot easier and less obtrusive to implement than a new subrace. It also has little to no balance implications.

Someone goes "Hey devs, there's this deity in FR that we don't have on the server. We have a few PC's IC that worship him, can we get him put in? He has X, Y, and Z domains." That's a lot easier than "Hey, there's this obscure, hax-ridden subrance in FR intended mainly as a monster class, devs, can we get it put in for the whole system just because I think it's super cool?".

Edit: And also, you are partially incorrect. Several people play races that are technically not in the module. They just have to make a request for it and find a suitable subrace to represent it from the many that we already have. We're not forcing anyone to do anything.

I think you're reading my comment from the wrong direction. I'm saying that people don't have the option of implementing their own silly subraces and classes, and that's a good thing. In the same way, it would be a good thing for players to have to limit their domain selections to something that makes sense.

Otherwise, why not make my next character a cleric of Nacknack, the orcish god of vegetarians and long-distance runners, who demands that all his followers take Plant and Travel domains? That sounds silly, but that's really about the same level of thought that most people put into their domain selections. The system should encourage players to be less stupid than that.

A deity of worship can't be compared to odd races. You worshiping a god has no boons that any other god might give you in all truth, unless you RP your way to something like everyone else.

And you actually -can- play odd races, you just have to request it.

Also, I'm not talking about making up gods like this "Nacknack" you're suggesting, I'm talking about real FR lore gods that simply don't have an idol on Amia. For example: Gwaeron Windstrom or Deneir.

Deneir has a ring but not an idol? Strange.

Aye. There are a number of gods who have rings and no idols. Namely, a Gnome god or two and many Faerun Pantheon gods.

There are some gods that do have idols and don't have rings too (Like Sheela Peryroyl, for example)! The relation between the two things as representations of gods in FR and gods with idols on Amia is pretty far off.

We have plans for Deneir.

We have plans, period. :mrgreen:

Hooray for Deneir.

But what GuNz said. The deity system was never intended to be a comprehensive system of enforcement. It was obvious from the get-go that it would never be perfect, and that was fine because it was something optional, additional and cool. Don't try to make it into more than that, lest I have to call an "I told you so."

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