AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

The only build i know of that makes good use of dual weapon foci is the dev crit arcane archer.
Quite restricted to one particular subrace thought.

I have a build that's I'm wondering about. It's currently 18 Ranger 5 Monk, Str build, to end at 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, taking Dev Crit, dualwield kamas.

But this was started back before the Dev Crit changes, so now I'm wondering:
Since Monk 6 nabs IKD, and that's pretty much what Dev Crit does now, is it worth taking the 2 epic feats to get Dev Crit?

Any recommendations for this build where it is, and how it should end up?
ideas:
1) 23 Ranger 5 Monk 2 Fighter, with Dev Crit (for the KD) and Armor Skin.
2) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Rogue, take Armor Skin,(Rogue for UMD).
3) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, take Armor Skin and Epic Prowess

Thanks in advance for your help.

GreatPigeon wrote:

CoT can pretty much fit any character. You can be champion of some sort of idea, it does not have to be a God.

Nope. Champion of [insert deity] is literaly a champion... of that god.

hendrack wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

CoT can pretty much fit any character. You can be champion of some sort of idea, it does not have to be a God.

Nope. Champion of [insert deity] is literaly a champion... of that god.

Yea. I always use the class as divine champion. That said its a very cool class to build with

Sun Dog wrote:

I have a build that's I'm wondering about. It's currently 18 Ranger 5 Monk, Str build, to end at 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, taking Dev Crit, dualwield kamas.

But this was started back before the Dev Crit changes, so now I'm wondering:
Since Monk 6 nabs IKD, and that's pretty much what Dev Crit does now, is it worth taking the 2 epic feats to get Dev Crit?

Any recommendations for this build where it is, and how it should end up?
ideas:
1) 23 Ranger 5 Monk 2 Fighter, with Dev Crit (for the KD) and Armor Skin.
2) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Rogue, take Armor Skin,(Rogue for UMD).
3) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, take Armor Skin and Epic Prowess

Thanks in advance for your help.

nr 3 will make you badass. Otherwise 24/6 ranger monk nets you a little better companion and thats good to?

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Rogue19/CoT10/Druid1?

Wiz17/Rogue13?

Both get Epic Dodge, the latter is a gimmick.

Im liking the 1st one,maybe the militant branch[no pun intended

],of the Druid grove?...yeah ,a story is definatly going through my mind.

Hmm,two little Flint knives,or actually how does two tiny flint axes sound?

The Rogue UMD can cover the innate magical state of Feyness and the 1 Druid lvl can go towards its commitment towards this Militant/champion of the forest thing,yeah..love it.

Let me think on this a while,umm ,one question ,its not going too be a leech is it?

And sorry this isint crunchy stuff,I, promise I will try that in a later post!
Im going for the theme in my head rather than numbers atm,sorry

And I want this char too be true too the image I have.

*Goes off too scribble a lot and then actually look at the wiki*

Thanks Uncle O.

@ feycourtier - Sorry to be a prick but could you tell us more about the character itself rather than the builds you want for it? I get the feeling you're sort of stuck in a certain pattern.

Like, why must it be a rogue for instance? Is it the mischievous nature of the fey made into an artwork, or the other side of the coin where the wicked side shows up in a myriad of ways to kill the opponent?

What god is the CoT levels championing btw?

Nps at all Svensk,I like your posts

Rogue,to me the quintessential Fey class,your tiny and use magic and trickery to survive,you aint riding in full plate with a lance[God I would love it if NWN let you though!]

The God,Titania or possibly the Overmind,[Gaia as such],itself....as a quote *I am the forest*

The chars still evolving atm but so far:Shes/Its a Fey,a capracious nature spirit/manifestation of magic,old as awareness but newly awakened or at least aware that she IS.Ingrained in her is magic and its uses and her love of nature ,be it red in tooth and claw, and the rightness of her calling too defend such.Bearing weapons and knowledge of how too use them that she has always known,but just recalled.Never lies but dosent always speak the truth,known by many names but only she knows the true one.Generous as summer too her friends,cold as winter too her enemies.And sometimes overtaken by a sadness that her kind are falling more and more into obscurity.

OK a bit of a ramble there,but thats part of her,and thanks for the interest,any input more than welcome

Sun Dog wrote:

I have a build that's I'm wondering about. It's currently 18 Ranger 5 Monk, Str build, to end at 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, taking Dev Crit, dualwield kamas.

But this was started back before the Dev Crit changes, so now I'm wondering:
Since Monk 6 nabs IKD, and that's pretty much what Dev Crit does now, is it worth taking the 2 epic feats to get Dev Crit?

Any recommendations for this build where it is, and how it should end up?
ideas:
1) 23 Ranger 5 Monk 2 Fighter, with Dev Crit (for the KD) and Armor Skin.
2) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Rogue, take Armor Skin,(Rogue for UMD).
3) 23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Fighter, take Armor Skin and Epic Prowess

Thanks in advance for your help.

I think I'd take what's behind Door #3, Monty...

From SCRATCH, I'd recommend 21 Rng/5 Mnk/4 F and nab WS and EWS, but since you're already at 18 Rng/5 Mnk, I'd end at 23 Rng (favored enemy)/6 Mnk (IKD and Tumble dump)/1 F (to net Armor Skin and Epic Prowess). It's hard to go wrong with ANY of them, but a melee build w/o Epic Prowess makes me a Sad Panda.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I think I'd take what's behind Door #3, Monty...

From SCRATCH, I'd recommend 21 Rng/5 Mnk/4 F and nab WS and EWS, but since you're already at 18 Rng/5 Mnk, I'd end at 23 Rng (favored enemy)/6 Mnk (IKD and Tumble dump)/1 F (to net Armor Skin and Epic Prowess). It's hard to go wrong with ANY of them, but a melee build w/o Epic Prowess makes me a Sad Panda.

Your recommendation is still within reach. But I'm wondering why Ranger 21? Why not 20 Rngr 6 Monk 4 Ftr? That way I still get IKD, and can take EWS.

Ranger 21 allows you to take bane of enemies and it allows your blade thirst to be +5...

That being said, do the ranger/monk or do the ranger fighter... I would take rogue instead of the 1 level option. Ability to use UMD, wands, scrolls, items not for your class is easily worth 1 feat.

23 Ranger, 6 monk, 1 rogue/fighter
25 ranger 4 fighter, 1 rogue/monk

GreatPigeon wrote:

Ranger 21 allows you to take bane of enemies and it allows your blade thirst to be +5...

That being said, do the ranger/monk or do the ranger fighter... I would take rogue instead of the 1 level option. Ability to use UMD, wands, scrolls, items not for your class is easily worth 1 feat.

23 Ranger, 6 monk, 1 rogue/fighter
25 ranger 4 fighter, 1 rogue/monk

Ah, yea of course I wanted to take Bane of Enemies, forgot that needed 21 Ranger to get that. So you would still recommend skipping Dev Crit? Seems like IKD would do the job in its place. And I agree, I think 1 Rogue would be useful for UMD:

23 Ranger 6 Monk 1 Rogue

One rogue level used for skilldumping it seems.

Sure, it's going to be handy mechanically.

I was wondering what part of your character story justifies the rogue level though.

At the very least, i'd bend RP and spend a little time in Shadowscape and/or other rogues.

If it where me, i'd then feel a little better with my choice.

This is sort of a holdover post from that topic in IA complaning about fighters and rogues:

Fighter and Rogue are so generic that you can splash them into anything with minimal effect on the overal character. Tumble giving AC and UMD being completely unavailable except to two classes were mistakes made in transferring the tabletop into a computer game. One level of fighter doesn't necessarily make you a fighter and one level of rogue doesn't mean anthing but a smattering of useful abilities commonly attirubted to the sneaky sort, if you're taking my opinion. Now, if you main it and get into double digits (or a bit less) than sure, we're talking, but it seems silly me to really harp on a build, especially a ranger, going one level of rogue: Ranger is basically the Nature version of the Urbanite Rogue anyways.

And that's why I feel pushing for bonuses for purity in Fighter, at least, is unwarranted. I don't think rogues need it because they have epic dodge access and HIPS access and corner sneak access and sneak attack access and UMD and Tumble and etc etc etc.

Yeah, I mean seriously, pre-epic, a pure Fighter gets what, ten bonus feats from their special list? A wizard in comparison gets four bonus feats pre-epic. Says it all right there.

You are absolutely right.

And I thank you for putting me back in the right track.

Back on the server I played skilldumping was frowned upon.

But luckily I discovered Amia and it opened my mind on the stiff, elitist RP I was used to.

And I mean absolutely no sarcasm by it.

I'm just too much of a perfectionnist.

I will make it my first challenge to soften down a little.

Fighter could be jazzed up. In PnP one is spoilt for feats. You could build your fighter in so many different ways. In nwn, not so much.

Quote:

Yeah, I mean seriously, pre-epic, a pure Fighter gets what, ten bonus feats from their special list? A wizard in comparison gets four bonus feats pre-epic. Says it all right there.

Fighters are fine as is.

How so? As someone who made plenty of pure and non pure fighter builds in NWN (that worked better or worse) I do not find fighter really that limited as far as variety goes, compared to other classes or not and taking it as a "main" class or not.

Yes, i've played my fair share of fighters too and I find them horribly limited. The fighter is meant to be a generalist in fighting. He can pick up any weapon and use it. The way the system is set up, weapon focus immediately pigeon holes you into one weapon. Specializing in one weapon is the domain of the weaponmaster.

*shrugs* I just think more combat feats would be cool.

Then don't take weapon focus in a single weapon? Thats them bones with pretty much every class I have found, you can either be a medium skilled jack of all trades or specialize. With the flurry of feats you get as a pure fighter you can easily spec in more then one weapon. And I agree, specing in a single weapon is the domain of the WM, which is why they DO get crazy bonuses in a single weapon

Would rather have had weapon focus apply to groups of weapons but one can dream. Axes, swords, spears and polearms etc.

Race: Human
Str: 18
Dex: 13
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Levels 1-7: Fighter
Ability gain: Strength +1
Skills: Concentration +10, Discipline +10, Intimidate +4
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Expertise, Weapon Proficiency (Exotic), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack

Levels 8-14: Weapon Master
Ability gain: Strength +2
Skills: N/A
Feats: WM Weapon of Choice (Bastard Sword), Improved Critical (Bastard Sword), WM Increased Multiplier, WM Superior Weapon Focus, Cleave

Level 15-29: Fighter
Ability gain: Strength +4
Skills: Concentration +22, Discipline +22
Feats: Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), Blind Fight, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Great Strength I, Overwhelming Critical (Bastard Sword), Epic Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Devastating Critical (Bastard Sword), Epic Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), Epic Prowess, Improved Expertise, Armor Skin

Level 30: Rogue
Skills: Use Magic Device +31, Tumble +30, Intimidate +5
Feats: ???

Last level feat, Epic Reflexes? Epic Fortitude? Epic Toughness? Epic Bonanza?

To much fighter bro.

You'll get far more mileage out of 16 WM/12 Fighter/2 Rogue then out of what you've got there.

edit: beaten.

Yeah, you don't need that much fighter. If you want a simple Fighter/WM/Rogue go with the setup Mosh said.

What would I get having more WM? And what feats should I give up, since I wouldn't have all those delicious fighter feats?

You'd get a better build. More AB for example, better saves and the ability to have WM in more than one weapon too.

Epic fort is your last feat. Epic toughness really isnt so epic...

As for feats to cut, improved expertise is standing out at the moment.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

You'd get a better build. More AB for example, better saves and the ability to have WM in more than one weapon too.

Epic fort is your last feat. Epic toughness really isnt so epic...

As for feats to cut, improved expertise is standing out at the moment.

I thought fighter gave full BAB and WM has only reflex as a good save?

And yeah, I was stymied why Epic Toughness is an option for +20 hp when Toughness would have given me 30 at that level.

Ignore the saves part. Its 3:40am here >.<

...which is why my first answer was brief lol.

Weapon Master gets and additional +2 AB with their chosen weapon at level 16, so it's technically a higher BAB with that bastard sword.

And you can get more than one weapon of choice? I didn't know that.

WM gives +1 AB every three epic levels. The difference between 22 Fighter/7 WM/1 Rogue and 12 Fighter/16 WM/2 Rogue is losing three feats, for gaining AB and Evasion. It's well worth the trade off. Drop Improved Expertise, IKD and that last extra feat you weren't sure what to do with and you have a monster with at least 50 AB with no buffs.

It is really, really worth it!

More AB which is generally the point of a Weapon Master.

Stock WM Model for a Bastard Sword Chap

1-7
Feats: 4 Fighter, 3 Standard, Human Bonus
Exotic, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus, Expertise, Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack

8 - 16 WM:
Feats: 3 Standard
Improved Critical, Cleave, Great Cleave

Fighter 17 - 20
1 Standard, 2 Fighter
Feats: Knockdown, Blindfight, Weapon Spec

Fighter 21:
Feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Spec

WM 22 - 27
Feats: 2 Standard 1 WM
Great Strength 1, Epic Prowess, Overhwhelming

Rogue: 28, 29

WM 30
Feats: 1 Standard, 1 WM
Devastating, Armor Skin

:: Improved Expertise is a waste of time. Seriously silly feat.

:: The +2 AB from going epic Weapon Master and getting evasion from the Rogue levels is worth the loss of IKD and the other epic bonus feat.

Sune Ninjas but I gave details.

You could also consider dropping Devastating in return for epic fort or dropping the idea of Weapon Spec for 19 WM 1 Rogue in epic and IKD.

Sweet. I think I can even swing that without needing to rebuild.

Thanks.

EDIT: But... but... devastating.

You shouldn't have to rebuild no.

Until you hit WM 7 every Weapon Master/Fighter build is virtually identical.

Also because we are on the topic of WM's

13 WM 14 Fighter 3 Rogue dualwielding Handaxes.

I LIKE IT!

Just a quick question regarding a melee Cleric/Rogue/SD. Pretty much just need to know if I have written this up properly (aka I think I covered everything, and is it viable?)

Human, Cleric 23/Rogue 1/SD 6

STR: 16 (17) [had an extra level up ability increase so stuck it here, Maxed Bull's fixes it nicely]
DEX: 13
CON: 10
WIS: 14 (20) [didn't have room for Great WIS to make WIS 22 with the errant level up point, but 20 is good enough]
INT: 14
CHA: 10

01: Cleric(1): Weapon Proficiency Martial, Extend Spell
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus
04: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=15)
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): Maximize Spell
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
09: Cleric(9): Blind Fight
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): WIS+1, Improved Critical, (WIS=17)
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): Dodge
16: Cleric(16): WIS+1, (WIS=18)
17: Cleric(17)
18: Cleric(18): Mobility
19: Cleric(19)
20: Cleric(20): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
21: Cleric(21) [empty feat, saving for epic spell most likely]
22: Cleric(22)
23: Rogue(1)
24: Shadowdancer(1): WIS+1, Epic Weapon Focus, {Hide in Plain Sight}, (WIS=20)
25: Shadowdancer(2): {Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
26: Shadowdancer(3)
27: Shadowdancer(4): Epic Prowess
28: Shadowdancer(5): STR+1, {Defensive Roll}, (STR=17)
29: Cleric(23): Armor Skin
30: Shadowdancer(6): Epic Fortitude

Concentration 32(32), Heal 19(24), Hide 33(34), Move Silently 33(34), Spellcraft 23(25), Tumble 30(31), UMD 25(25)

Thoughts and such?

You need way more int for skillpoints.
A cleric hipser doesnt really work.....

Skillpoints for what? I thought I covered the important things.

Heal and crafting are the only things I can see putting points into. Or Spot maybe.

Naivatkal wrote:

Skillpoints for what? I thought I covered the important things.

Heal and crafting are the only things I can see putting points into. Or Spot maybe.

...
Clerics get 2 + Int Modifier skillpoints per level.
Yours is a human, thats +1
with 14 int you get +2

+5 skillpoints per level = 5 skills to max.

#1 Concentration
#2 Spellcraft
#3 Tumble
#4 Hide
#5 MS
#6 Discipline (Shame you have no class to dump this from)
#7 Spot, because a cleric is easy to pimp to 70-90 Spot and youll instawin vs dancers and hiders.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Skillpoints for what? I thought I covered the important things.

Heal and crafting are the only things I can see putting points into. Or Spot maybe.

...
Clerics get 2 + Int Modifier skillpoints per level.
Yours is a human, thats +1
with 14 int you get +2

+5 skillpoints per level = 5 skills to max.

#1 Concentration
#2 Spellcraft
#3 Tumble
#4 Hide
#5 MS
#6 Discipline (Shame you have no class to dump this from)
#7 Spot, because a cleric is easy to pimp to 70-90 Spot and youll instawin vs dancers and hiders.

Yup, noticed the lack of Discipline, inherent in the classes taken.
Wasn't too sure on spot, considering that would be trying to max hide/ms/spot. Though, that would just require more gear *nods*

Na.

WIS Mod + Spot helmet + Epic skill focus + True sight and Clairvoyance pots usually pimps you up pretty darn high.
And your cleric probably doesn't need Epic Prowess. He'll have around 51-52 AB WHen buffed.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Na.

WIS Mod + Spot helmet + Epic skill focus + True sight and Clairvoyance pots usually pimps you up pretty darn high.
And your cleric probably doesn't need Epic Prowess. He'll have around 51-52 AB WHen buffed.

Nifty, dumping Epic Prow would make room for Epic Spot, which I kinda wanted anyways

This is all just stuff to think about, part of my habit of tinkering with builds and also for a char of mine. Possibly lol

Your better of taking Bard over Rogue and using the awesomesauce that is the Morningstar over taking martial weapon proficiency.

Quote:

STR: 16 (17) [had an extra level up ability increase so stuck it here, Maxed Bull's fixes it nicely]
DEX: 13
CON: 10
WIS: 14 (20) [didn't have room for Great WIS to make WIS 22 with the errant level up point, but 20 is good enough]
INT: 14
CHA: 10

This is silly. Rather than finishing on odd Strength you should dock a point of strength at character creation and put it into Con.

If it were me however.

10 STR
16 DEX -> 18
10 CON
15 WIS -> 20
14 INT
10 CHA

Feats: Extend Spell, Blindfight, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Dagger, Max Spell, Imp Crit Dagger, Dodge, Mobility

MoshingChris wrote:

Your better of taking Bard over Rogue and using the awesomesauce that is the Morningstar over taking martial weapon proficiency.

Quote:

STR: 16 (17) [had an extra level up ability increase so stuck it here, Maxed Bull's fixes it nicely]
DEX: 13
CON: 10
WIS: 14 (20) [didn't have room for Great WIS to make WIS 22 with the errant level up point, but 20 is good enough]
INT: 14
CHA: 10

This is silly. Rather than finishing on odd Strength you should dock a point of strength at character creation and put it into Con.

If it were me however.

10 STR
16 DEX -> 18
10 CON
15 WIS -> 20
14 INT
10 CHA

Feats: Extend Spell, Blindfight, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Dagger, Max Spell, Imp Crit Dagger, Dodge, Mobility

That makes a lot of sense to have the 12 CON instead, though the higher STR was to accommodate for using fullplate but I dunno.

Also, out of curiosity, why did you suggest Bard over Rogue?

Bards have all the lovely rogue skills you need plus Discipline.

Jaex wrote:

Bards have all the lovely rogue skills you need plus Discipline.

Oh, I say ol chap! I forgot about that.

Those sneaky bards

I've -never- made a Paladin before (nor even something above the Neutral level).

I know CoT + Paladin levels combine for smite damage & Turn Undead DC, but I was curious if CoT levels add towards Paladin's CL for casting of spells. ie. 16 Pally, 14 CoT. Would the Turn/CL based spells only last for 16 Mins or 30?

Na, only 16 I'm afraid. Very little reason for staying pure Paladin if it was otherwise.

MoshingChris wrote:

Also because we are on the topic of WM's

13 WM 14 Fighter 3 Rogue dualwielding Handaxes.

I LIKE IT!

Using chain armor, or full plate? Please, more details

The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

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