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Often when someone wants a rebuild, and they are a Blackguard, the mention is made of some sort of a contract.

However, the AmiaWiki states here:

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Optional Requirement: The blackguard must have made friendly contact with an evil outsider, summonded either by himself or someone else. This does not necessarily mandate some sort of oath or pact be made.
In addition, the Blackguard class is an acceptable alternative to the Divine Champion PrC for evil alignments; Due to the alignment restrictions for the Champion of Torm.
A blackguard is a mortal who has bargained with an evil outsider in an attempt to increase his own power. This bargain may have been initiated by either party; certain demons and devils have notorious reputations for seducing mortals into corruption. Conversely, the mortal himself may have sought out and even summoned the outsider in order to advance his own dark power. Regardless, negotiating with fiends on such a level is an intensely evil act, to say nothing of wielding the power that results. For this reason, blackguards are always evil themselves, although they may not start out that way.
Negotiating with a fiend does not in itself make one a blackguard; receiving divine power as a result does.

Is it always assumed that the BG character made a pact with a fiend? When I made my BG, and then requested the BG levels be stripped, a pact was mentioned, which confused me. I was under the understanding that a BG could also receive his or her powers from their diety, as mentioned above, and thats how I played my BG.

Beig a servant to an evil deity is often intrinsically different than being a servant to a good deity and thus there are different standards.

Since when have we been obligated to obey a wiki?

I was just about to post something similar. Please be aware that the wiki is entirely a player maintained service and never overrule dm rulings. It is only intended as a supplement lore source to whatever the dms present on the forum or elsewhere.

And what is the DM rule about blackguards then?

Whatever we decide we want it to be, subject to change instantly on a whim.

*sighs* That's helpful.... so then it may just be pointless to try and RP a Blackguard without specific DM permission to do so and a complete background as to -how- a PC became a blackguard, so that the RP is Amia DM accurate? My Blackguard had no 'pact' with an outsider and I have always RP'd her that way, she is very suspicious demons and devils, she made peaceful -contact- with one, but she's -always- been RPd as more of an anti-paladin of Beshaba, and until now, there was no issue, at least this is what you seem to be saying.... or am I misunderstanding you?

Well Blackguards aren't evil paladins or anti paladins really... at least that is what the DM team in the past has always repeated. I would suggest maybe PMing Tormak or something to try and get that sorted, since you obviously care about your RP making sense.

This was just to request clarification, not saying you have to obey a Wiki named after Amia. Someone trying to find out information about blackguards and being directed to the Amia Wiki for such information might understandably be confused down the road when they are asked about a pact they didn't build the character around.

Even our page on classes doesn't specify any pact requirement.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=934671#p934671

It just seems to me to be a sticky situation that could be avoided with some readily available clarification.

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

*sighs* That's helpful.... so then it may just be pointless to try and RP a Blackguard without specific DM permission to do so and a complete background as to -how- a PC became a blackguard, so that the RP is Amia DM accurate? My Blackguard had no 'pact' with an outsider and I have always RP'd her that way, she is very suspicious demons and devils, she made peaceful -contact- with one, but she's -always- been RPd as more of an anti-paladin of Beshaba, and until now, there was no issue, at least this is what you seem to be saying.... or am I misunderstanding you?

Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Well Blackguards aren't evil paladins or anti paladins really... at least that is what the DM team in the past has always repeated. I would suggest maybe PMing Tormak or something to try and get that sorted, since you obviously care about your RP making sense.

I beg to differ, as in the class description, and previous DnD lore versions, the class was not called a Blackguard, but an Anti-Paladin. In 3.0 it became the Blackguard, the antithesis of the Paladin, and evil Knight, the epitome of all that is evil. Where as assassins can be evil because of profession choice, Blackguards chose and commit to their chosen path, like Paladins.

TormakSaber wrote:

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

*sighs* That's helpful.... so then it may just be pointless to try and RP a Blackguard without specific DM permission to do so and a complete background as to -how- a PC became a blackguard, so that the RP is Amia DM accurate? My Blackguard had no 'pact' with an outsider and I have always RP'd her that way, she is very suspicious demons and devils, she made peaceful -contact- with one, but she's -always- been RPd as more of an anti-paladin of Beshaba, and until now, there was no issue, at least this is what you seem to be saying.... or am I misunderstanding you?

Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Exactly!

Janna Ogder wrote:

This was just to request clarification, not saying you have to obey a Wiki named after Amia. Someone trying to find out information about blackguards and being directed to the Amia Wiki for such information might understandably be confused down the road when they are asked about a pact they didn't build the character around.

The actual problem is not one of unavailable information. The OOC information is usually available if you just ask for it. The problem here is obviously people directing you to a site that we don't sanction that is really little more than a battleground where people can edit in their grievances when they find they've lost a voice and an audience for it here.

Quote:

Even our page on classes doesn't specify any pact requirement.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=934671#p934671

It just seems to me to be a sticky situation that could be avoided with some readily available clarification.

It doesn't have to. That's all information about the the mechanics of leveling a BG, not actually playing one.

Yossarin wrote:

The actual problem is not one of unavailable information. The OOC information is usually available if you just ask for it.

You mean like they just did, in this very topic, the one your posting in right now.

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Well Blackguards aren't evil paladins or anti paladins really... at least that is what the DM team in the past has always repeated. I would suggest maybe PMing Tormak or something to try and get that sorted, since you obviously care about your RP making sense.

I beg to differ, as in the class description, and previous DnD lore versions, the class was not called a Blackguard, but an Anti-Paladin. In 3.0 it became the Blackguard, the antithesis of the Paladin, and evil Knight, the epitome of all that is evil. Where as assassins can be evil because of profession choice, Blackguards chose and commit to their chosen path, like Paladins.

I simply stated what the DMs have said in the past when issues about the Blackguards not being comparable to Paladins have been brought up. The answer was always, "They are not Evil Paladins or Anti-Paladins... they are blackguards." Also a Blackguard doesn't have any Evil rules to follow... once the "pact" or otherwise is formed they can do whatever they wish with their powers, while a Paladin has a code so a 'Evil' Paladin should also have some form of code to follow. Blackguards do not even need to have a deity, since they can draw their powers from fiends not gods. Now... they are the closest thing nwn has to Evil Paladins, but really aren't "Evil Paladins" more like "Evil Douchebag who is using said powerful fiend to get more power".

Yossarin wrote:

The problem here is obviously people directing you to a site that we don't sanction that is really little more than a battleground where people can edit in their grievances when they find they've lost a voice and an audience for it here.

I'm not meaning to be a dick, but... *points to sidebar under Varia*

So can BG work as the evil answer to CoT?

Just one of a few things we can remove if we care to.

Just to offer a little RP spice and help, have a look at this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44325
It's quite helpful in terms of understanding how the pact is made, with whom, and how it works.

The very basic idea that fits into most categories of a blackguard is this: To become a Blackguard, you make a pact with a fiend. This fiend in most cases is working for a higher power (Deity status), and acts as the middleman for the negociation. So you may be directly or indirectly serving a Dark Power, whatever God, etc... But it is established with the pact being made. I'm not sure if all of this is canon, but the logic behind the post I mentioned above works well.

Hope it helps!

The pact, however, need not be something permanent and irreversible. If you made a deal to provide regular sacrifices in return for your powers, it would be easily broken by stopping to do so and thus losing your powers. When it comes to gods, it's as easy as converting to someone else. The DMs seem intent on making Blackguardom something dramatic and irreversible, but that's quite unfair considering it's not part of the lore they've been sanctioning for years. The player is the only one who decides whether and what kind of a pact their PC made. DMs certainly can't do that in retrospect (but being involved in the original induction is another matter).

Huh? We doing what now?

Yossarin wrote:

Whatever we decide we want it to be, subject to change instantly on a whim.

Still, it would be nice to have something stable that we could refer to so we don't just go on the totally opposite side of what it should be...

Yossarin wrote:

Just one of a few things we can remove if we care to.

wouldnt it be more helpful to the playerbase if such things were more set in stone so to speak? Rules and such changing on the whim of a DM, primarily when theres lots of DMs with different views, really can throw off players, and at times completely null out RP. (whether or not the RP is good or bad).

IronAngel wrote:

The DMs seem intent on making Blackguardom something dramatic and irreversible, but that's quite unfair considering it's not part of the lore they've been sanctioning for years. The player is the only one who decides whether and what kind of a pact their PC made. DMs certainly can't do that in retrospect (but being involved in the original induction is another matter).

Is that a fact now? I thought it was just extra hoops thrown in to make rebuilds harder to pass.

Quote:

In addition, the Blackguard class is an acceptable alternative to the Divine Champion PrC for evil alignments; Due to the alignment restrictions for the Champion of Torm.

I actually know someone who plays his character in this manner.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

The DMs seem intent on making Blackguardom something dramatic and irreversible, but that's quite unfair considering it's not part of the lore they've been sanctioning for years. The player is the only one who decides whether and what kind of a pact their PC made. DMs certainly can't do that in retrospect (but being involved in the original induction is another matter).

Is that a fact now? I thought it was just extra hoops thrown in to make rebuilds harder to pass.

Umm..it is mainly being sanctioned because of the amount of rebuild requests I guess...I can be wrong. But we can say that for sure that it is easier to fall from the good side than losing the bounds which was mad with the dark side.
Star Wars is a good example for that.

No, Prescia's half-right. That isn't the intent, but it is the result. I wish I could believe in Iron when he says you can all be trusted to handle these things without ever having a single issue we have to settle, but you can't, and so we have to manufacture certain things in order to level the playing field you keep trying to dig up. One might say it would be wiser for us to take our hands off and let it go where it will, which is what I would do if not for the fact that other people keep insisting that there's only a handful of rotten eggs on the server, rather than a majority.

As far as updating information goes, I'm not really shocked you don't seem to be noticing the position of my tongue. The fact of the matter is, if I were able to update information on the forum myself without consulting anyone else about anything, it would be done. Probably not correctly, or to some of your standards, but it would be done. I'm not a forum mod, though, so those privileges aren't mine!

Until they are, I reject it on principle because by saying, "Yes, that needs to be updated" I'm actually saying "someone other than me needs to do the work" when in fact I'd rather the people who can do the work just say, "Ok, I'll do it" rather than forcing me to volunteer them.

I wasn't necessarily insisting that everyone can be trusted, to be honest. Well, that's my general attitude, but my more specific point is that the OP was victim to miscommunication: the concept of a fiendish pact was applied to her character even if it wasn't applicable (or so she believes; whichever the case, communication issue). The DMs are of course free to impose whatever standards they want on rebuilds, but obviously not to the point where lore is made up ad hoc and character history rewritten. And I'm not saying that happens regularly, intentionally or nefariously, but Blackguards are a long-standing subject of confusion and disagreement and many players will probably not know to present their point and character background clearly when asked to find a way to undo the pact they never did.

Of course, Blackguards who serve dark deities as common clergy may face some difficulties turning away from the faith, but that doesn't automatically mean there was a pact made. That's something to find out case by case. I think I understand your point, though it's cryptic as usual: you will not say that Blackguards who just serve as regular clergymen don't have to make binding pacts, because that would legitimise irresponsibility and tie your own hands from enforcing whatever standards you may want to enforce on future rebuilds. But purely descriptively speaking, concerning existing Blackguard NPCs and PCs in Amian Toril, isn't it fair and correct to say that the Amia canon includes both Blackguards who've made irreversible Faustian pacts and those who haven't and differ little from clerics?

Quote:

the OP was victim to miscommunication: the concept of a fiendish pact was applied to her character even if it wasn't applicable (or so she believes; whichever the case, communication issue).

Wrong.

Quote:

Tormak: Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Zephyr: Exactly!

What she didn't realize is that I was not offering a "So this is how your character works?". I was actually SAYING. "This is how your character works.". Luckily she seems to have agreed, so nothing is being applied out of 'miscommunication', and frankly, I think the player is capable of defending herself and does not need yu running in circles to do it for her.

Quote:

I think the player is capable of defending herself and does not need yu running in circles to do it for her.

I hate to show my ugly face but if the intent wasn't to offend then no one would need to defend. Just saying..

Quote:

Tormak: Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Zephyr: Exactly!

TormakSaber wrote:

What she didn't realize is that I was not offering a "So this is how your character works?". I was actually SAYING. "This is how your character works.". Luckily she seems to have agreed, so nothing is being applied out of 'miscommunication', and frankly, I think the player is capable of defending herself and does not need yu running in circles to do it for her.

This is how I understood it, I did not think it a question but a statement of fact... this is how her Blackguard status came into being, she had peaceful contact with a fiend representing Beshaba, the fiend making the pact typically makes it on behalf of a more powerful demon or devil, or in this case a deity, the pact is not -necessarily- with the outsider making the contact, but frequently on the behalf of a stronger power.

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

Quote:

Tormak: Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Zephyr: Exactly!

[quote=TormakSaber]What she didn't realize is that I was not offering a "So this is how your character works?". I was actually SAYING. "This is how your character works.". Luckily she seems to have agreed, so nothing is being applied out of 'miscommunication', and frankly, I think the player is capable of defending herself and does not need yu running in circles to do it for her.

This is how I understood it, I did not think it a question but a statement of fact... this is how her Blackguard status came into being, she had peaceful contact with a fiend representing Beshaba, the fiend making the pact typically makes it on behalf of a more powerful demon or devil, or in this case a deity, the pact is not -necessarily- with the outsider making the contact, but frequently on the behalf of a stronger power.

Quote:

Tormak: Then you made your unholy pact with Beshaba, basically, in much the same way a Paladin is entrusted as part of the holy covenant with his deity.

Zephyr: Exactly!

TormakSaber wrote:

What she didn't realize is that I was not offering a "So this is how your character works?". I was actually SAYING. "This is how your character works.". Luckily she seems to have agreed, so nothing is being applied out of 'miscommunication', and frankly, I think the player is capable of defending herself and does not need yu running in circles to do it for her.

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

This is how I understood it, I did not think it a question but a statement of fact... this is how her Blackguard status came into being, she had peaceful contact with a fiend representing Beshaba, the fiend making the pact typically makes it on behalf of a more powerful demon or devil, or in this case a deity, the pact is not -necessarily- with the outsider making the contact, but frequently on the behalf of a stronger power.

Fixed cause it was driving me a bit crazy, pet peeve and all

My whole issue with Blackguards and their lore actually lies more in the OoC realm than the IC one.... though one does influence the other to a certain degree. If your character is a BG and decides to turn from it's fiendish pact or whatever it may hold that gives the character it's power, there should be consequences of that act. Be it as simple as giving the PC a Fallen widget for a variable amount of time or as complex as receiving the Fallen widget and having to undergo a redemption quest that takes several different steps to complete.

My point being, there should be some form of negative result of leaving the Blackguard way of life behind. It should not be as simple as just rebuilding out of BG and into Fighter or whatever class, there should be more behind it than that. In my opinion, doing that sort of thing just cheapens the whole character's story.

IMO if you make a blackguard then the fiendish effects would definitely leave a permanent mark on the character which may simply infect his soul for example. In that case your character may not be able to turn away from the dark side at all.

Aka...if you make an evil blackguard once then keep it evil and do not try to make him a Lathanderite or Sunite hippie because it is not cool at all and there is little chance for that.

Lutra wrote:

Aka...if you make an evil blackguard once then keep it evil and do not try to make him a Lathanderite or Sunite hippie because it is not cool at all and there is little chance for that.

*Offended!!!!!*

In all seriousness thanks for this OP because I have been asked about this a few times in general.

Lutra wrote:

IMO if you make a blackguard then the fiendish effects would definitely leave a permanent mark on the character which may simply infect his soul for example. In that case your character may not be able to turn away from the dark side at all.

Aka...if you make an evil blackguard once then keep it evil and do not try to make him a Lathanderite or Sunite hippie because it is not cool at all and there is little chance for that.

What about Aliant? He went two steps beyond chaotic good and one beyond neutral good and became a lawful good tormite! (From being a BG me bane I think)

Let's not use names, hmm? If something was approved by the DMs then it is an ex catedra thingy.

Well for the whole "permanent" part... my Blackguard has a mark of the damned burned into his right hand that will never go away, even if he stopped being a BG. Though my character may be a one of a kind scenario.

If my blackguard ever turns away from the powers presented to him trough his various deals and such from being a blackguard, it'd either be because he's hunting down a more powerful patron for his deals, or it's a ruse.

Just like becomming a paladin, being a blackguard is just something that won't go away very easily, and it -will- come back to haunt you at one point if you turn away from it. You have to be pretty damn sure about things before you start doing deals of various magnitudes to evil deities and/or fiends. And I think every BG that's being RPed well, will get some sort of consequence for turning away from it. Either by his own player's machinations, or his former allies.

Tbh I view turning away from being a Blackguard somewhat the same way I view turning away from an RDD or a PM. They are just three prestige classes that shouldn't be easy to turn away from once you've stumbled on the path.

Well, firstly, this topic is not about my BG specifically, it was a general question thread for clarification. It just so happens my BG is undergoing some serious changes in her life, so she came up as a possible example. Discussion of her situation ended when it was verified the pact could be made with either an evil outsider or a deity. Whether she leaves her BG behind is between me and the DMs only, and is nobody else's business, hence why you're advised to not read the request forums unless you have a request pending.

Thank you all for your input, but her path is between me and the DMs only!

General discussion forum is for general discussions so most likely people will share their opinions here, the request forum is for you and the DMs only.

If a BG thats been given his powers from a devil/demon but was using these powers in the service of an evil god, if they turned away from that god would they still recieve a fallen widget or is it only if the contract specifies he has to use those powers in service of that god?

The point of a contract = I are owning your soulz, you owe me, bitch.

hendrack wrote:

The point of a contract = I are owning your soulz, you owe me, bitch.

Yes that's what I was thinking, just looking for clarification, I couldn't see a devil giving powers to some punk so he could just to favors for this god, devils don't answer to gods.

Never had a BG but from the scraps of lore I picked up here and there devils and demons can give their dark gifts to BGs, hence the power a BG wields comes from the fiend you make the contract with. Someone more lore savy correct me if I am wrong.

Lutra wrote:

General discussion forum is for general discussions so most likely people will share their opinions here, the request forum is for you and the DMs only.

It is in the requests forum. I just thought it necessary to clarify, this is not a topic about her, since she was being referred back to frequently. I'm not saying don't share your opinions, just make them more general... since this is a General Discussion forum. She was only brought up initially as an alternative contract being RPd for Blackguard status.

It's funny that everyone is talking about pacs and contracts, especially of the Faustian kind. Nothing in the Blackguard class lore says that they make such a pact. What's required is contact with an evil outsider. The line of thought that's lead to the popular misunderstanding seems to be something like this: you need to contact an evil outsider -> devils are evil outsiders -> devils make contracts for souls -> Blackguards sell their souls to devils for power -> But Blackguards can also serve gods -> Blackguards make pacts with gods and bargain with their souls.

This is of course fallacious. It may be the common situation, but nothing about the lore suggests such, especially not as a necessity. I guess Faust is just such a compelling figure of Western culture that we immediately connect him with Blackguards. But there's no reason to assume that the contact with an evil god that results in Blackguardom is any different from clerical induction, or that the pacts and ties to your Blackguardom are any harder to break than those of a cleric. They may be, maybe they're not, but there's no lore to definetely dictate one way or the other. Case by case.

by the way a quick question.. Blackguard's Aura of Despair is always present right? Not only when activated?

it is always present as far as I know. It is a natural evil aura of every blackguard.

Playing it according to the mechanics would save the DMs and the players as well from a lot of misunderstandings and trouble. That's just how I see it, though, and I'm unsure if there's any official say on this, but it's for the DMs to dictate that say.

IronAngel wrote:

It's funny that everyone is talking about pacs and contracts, especially of the Faustian kind. Nothing in the Blackguard class lore says that they make such a pact. What's required is contact with an evil outsider. The line of thought that's lead to the popular misunderstanding seems to be something like this: you need to contact an evil outsider -> devils are evil outsiders -> devils make contracts for souls -> Blackguards sell their souls to devils for power -> But Blackguards can also serve gods -> Blackguards make pacts with gods and bargain with their souls.

This is of course fallacious. It may be the common situation, but nothing about the lore suggests such, especially not as a necessity. I guess Faust is just such a compelling figure of Western culture that we immediately connect him with Blackguards. But there's no reason to assume that the contact with an evil god that results in Blackguardom is any different from clerical induction, or that the pacts and ties to your Blackguardom are any harder to break than those of a cleric. They may be, maybe they're not, but there's no lore to definetely dictate one way or the other. Case by case.

I did not know this. I just took it for granted that the whole contract thing was a feature of the class since I don't read sourcebooks.

IMHO, the "Must have made peaceful contact with an Evil Outsider." is a bit vague, but considering the nature of some forms of Evil Outsider.. it'd stand to reason

Any Lore on Blackguards as they apply on Amia honestly is the DM's dominion and the DM's alone.

The DM's wanna say "Any Blackguard PC or NPC would have had to undergo the equivalant of a Faustian Contract, whether be with an Evil Outsider or an Evil deity THROUGH an Outsider." .. that's their right and honestly I think that's how it should work because in my reading of the class, that's how it comes off in the actual writing.

Blackguard Clarification

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