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Dwagin
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 Posted: Sat, Feb 12 2011, 5:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Snape75
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Posted: Sat, Feb 12 2011, 5:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2008
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Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNQ-ac3ZoOg&feature=fvst
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P Three
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Posted: Sat, Feb 12 2011, 20:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Yes, the realm-after-death and Ghostwalking is done on other servers. On Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist, to be precise.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Snape75
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Posted: Sat, Feb 12 2011, 20:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2008
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I guess that would be more lore-appropriate...
I like the idea of simply making a char absent for a while and write a background story on PC stories/descriptions on exploring the Fugue Plane.
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Palin489
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Posted: Sat, Feb 12 2011, 23:06 PM |
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Joined: 21 Aug 2010
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I remember playing for years in RP communities that had a 3 life Permadeath system. The only characters that lived long were the ones that were quiet or were allowed exceptions to the rules. (High ranking characters whom if gone would cause much RP to be lost) All of the communities are dead. I also remember how the PvP hungry individuals would run around mindlessly killing people for reasons I could only assume were for the purpose of griefing. It's not a fun environment to lose your level 5 because some 20 felt it'd be fun to just wipe out a zone because he got in an argument with some other level 20. In a perfect world a Permadeath server would work. Alternatively in a perfect world a permadeath server wouldn't be necessary. (People would know how to RP around such instances meaningfully and well thought out)
The one thing I did take from those servers is that I /never/ perma'd a single character in them over the course of a few years. I couldn't come to bear that I would kill off someone's character OOCly. I know that's a bit metagamey, but I couldn't do it. And I'm sure there are others who wouldn't be able to take a character from someone else. Which I find great. But I also feel is detracting from the environment of the RP. All in all characters living indefinitely while not the best is better than being lost over meaningless squabbles. I've played both angles and I much prefer the servers where the owner of the character determines when they die rather than the masses that they play with. I think you'd have to seriously trust the other player's decision making (to a fault even) to allow them such power. And I personally don't trust everyone on the server with the power to kill off characters of mine.
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HellScourge
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 7:07 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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Palin489 wrote: I couldn't come to bear that I would kill off someone's character OOCly. I know that's a bit metagamey, but I couldn't do it. And I'm sure there are others who wouldn't be able to take a character from someone else. Which I find great. But I also feel is detracting from the environment of the RP. All in all characters living indefinitely while not the best is better than being lost over meaningless squabbles. I've played both angles and I much prefer the servers where the owner of the character determines when they die rather than the masses that they play with. I think you'd have to seriously trust the other player's decision making (to a fault even) to allow them such power. And I personally don't trust everyone on the server with the power to kill off characters of mine. This. *Sagenods* _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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Scimiter
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 11:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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Disclaimer: I only read about half the thread before I got bored cause we've seen it all before
For fucksakes! Run a search for permadeath and what do you get? Denied, denied and denied again. It's not going to happen! Now for the love of god lock this and make a filter so such a topic can't even be POSTED again....and if it is posted make a auto reply to link them to the almost dozen other requests that have been turned down and over discussed before getting locked
_________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 12:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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This should be brought up again and again, because attitudes towards permadeath and other IC consequences have changed over the years (it's actually possible nowadays if the DMs say so) and the only way to make them change more is to keep these things in public attention and actively work for change. You should probably never get into politics, if you think an issue should be forgotten as soon as it fails once.  I support permadeath. I foresee mostly good things. Much of the kneejerk paranoia portrayed here has no basis in actual experience with permadeath servers or is at least based on bad experiences and the assumption that you can't do it right. Personally, my experiences are the opposite. I don't agree with the initial suggestion, though. Permadeath shouldn't be rewarded, and it shouldn't be the result of PvM death. Permadeath should be reserved for DM and Player use (including but not limited to PvP), and even then limited in use and always subject to overruling if foul play was involved. Griefing is illegal already, and there's no reason to assume griefing-related permadeath would be considered legitimate, for example. That said, permadeath does work better on servers with a smaller level difference (the one that does it best has all characters within 7-9 levels of eachother) and PvP between a level 30 and a level 10 isn't fair. Nonetheless, we're not a PvP server and permadeath shouldn't ever be the result of random, unavoidable PvP anyway, so that's not a dealbreaker issue. I don't know the best way to implement permadeath on Amia. I do know that we should change our attitudes towards it and try, even if we go one small step at a time. The first one should be DM-approved permadeath when the story leads to it, which could be requested by someone other than the PC's player herself. If you catch a spy in your organization, you should be able to slice him up and toss his pieces into the ocean. If your competitor messes with you, you should be able to send an assassin after him. And furthermore, permadeath should be only permanent insofar as nobody finds a reasonable way to resurrect the PC. There should be no final OOC call one way or the other. Details aside, the most important thing that must change is the attitude of "I'm in control of my PC." No, you're not. You're in control of his reactions to external circumstances, and that alone. Your very purpose here is to react to other PCs and the environment, and that includes the possibility of dealing with bad consequences up to death. Someone said they don't trust other players with the power to decide their PC's fate. That's pretty sad, I think: we're here to interact with other players and creatively deal with the situations they put our PCs in, so if we don't trust them to play fair our problems are bigger than just permadeath. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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wakaman
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 12:58 PM |
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Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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I know that any DM doing this would be extremely brave.. But I'm wondering whether an interesting experiment might be the creation a DM plot with high stakes: chance for great reward, but also a chance of perma-death. This DM event would be completely optional and anyone who wanted to do so could join it, but the disclaimer would always be there, in big bold writing: your character can potentially perma-die as a result of this plot, and the more involved he gets, the greater the chances of perma-death or great gain. I leave the 'great gain' bit to the discretion of the DM, but the main point here would be: if the playerbase knows that it's efforts will be rewarded, would it be willing to really give in to the realism of perma-death? This is just an honest musing, and I'm not sure if it's any good, tbh. But I just wonder whether this might be an interesting study of a biased cross-section of the playerbase: - How many will join?
- How will the characters behave knowing that the stakes are high compared with knowing that there are no stakes whatsoever? i.e. will this knowledge be conducive to immersive and exciting roleplay? will characters be more cautious/ put much more effort into their preparation and research?
- How will players whose characters are perma-killed for legitimate reasons react? will they react negatively and cause the DMs unnecessary grief, or will they accept the consequences of their decisions? will other players who were involved in the event, when seeing the negative reaction (should it happen) actually take the DM's side and thus create a more cemented group pressure, or will the whole things simply creature animosity between DMs and players?
I dunno. Could be interesting...
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Yossarin
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Wow. What an original idea, wakaman. I'm so glad you pointed that out.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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With all do respect why is this thread still even open?
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Kudark
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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GreatPigeon wrote: With all do respect why is this thread still even open? Thank you for making me laugh, I want to shake your hand, good one.  _________________ 
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Yossarin wrote: Wow. What an original idea, wakaman. I'm so glad you pointed that out. *Snicker Snort*
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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wakaman wrote: I know that any DM doing this would be extremely brave..
*Cough* Alternative Beginnings Bro *End Cough*
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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wakaman
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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MoshingChris wrote: wakaman wrote: I know that any DM doing this would be extremely brave..
*Cough* Alternative Beginnings Bro *End Cough* Fair enough, and this definitely exposes my ignorance/lack of reading the General Discussion thread. Consider me enlightened.  Having said that, I don't consider the 'alternative beginnings' a necessarily good test, because it involves new characters who start at level 3. My intention was a DM plot that's open to everyone, including players whose PCs are very well established on Amia and are level 30. I think it's relatively easy to accept perma-death of a character in which you've invested much less into than your 'main' PC; the more real test, and I think the test that might be most pertinent to Amians, might be a similar plot that offers 'old' or 'main' characters the chance to join as well. This would pull the real strings, I think..
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 13:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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There is one, you just don't know about it.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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wakaman
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 14:04 PM |
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Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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Cool. Then, as has been suggested, my point is almost completely superfluous.
I'd be interested to hear how it all works out/ whether other such events come up.
/out!
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demihamster
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Posted: Mon, Feb 14 2011, 20:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Dec 2008
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How about making characters that get raised "permanently" lose some con points until reset?
This will make any future actions attempted by the character much harder because they'll have less hp, and death will obviously be something people will try to avoid more.
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Herra Tutteri
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 10:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland
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Tits. Huge tits. Rubber tits. Titty tits. Enough?
_________________ Characters: Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 11:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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demihamster wrote: How about making characters that get raised "permanently" lose some con points until reset?
This will make any future actions attempted by the character much harder because they'll have less hp, and death will obviously be something people will try to avoid more. I don't think the issue is too light death penalties (well, that is an issue but a seperate one), but rather stagnation and OOC restrictions on IC actions. At least personally, I'm not interested in giving permanent disabilities for people who have a bad day. I'm interested in epic or even coincidental and tragi-comical deaths that shape the story. If you go into politics and play dirty, I want you to fear for your life. If you want to be a notorious master of the arena, I want you to work your ass off to keep that title and live. If you're a greedy bandit who jumps at caravans any chance he gets, I want you to face the real risk of biting off more than you can chew and paying for it. I don't want PCs to avoid death at all costs; I want them to risk it, and either reap the rewards or take the fall. Real risk means real reward. RP without danger and adrenaline will always be a little more bland. Somebody said you can't make a real impact if you don't live long. That's nonsense. The most epic, legendary and influential characters will take on impossible odds, go far and achieve a lot, but ultimately die an untimely death and become martyrs or mythical villains. You're not epic and great for living 5 years and taking part in a dozen great DM plots. You've just outstayed your welcome, and clearly never took any heroic risks. That is, unless you deliberately play a low-profile pussy who looks out for his own survival first and foremost, and that's cool too. But if you want to be a renowned hero, you shouldn't expect to live very long. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 11:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: You're not epic and great for living 5 years and taking part in a dozen great DM plots. You've just outstayed your welcome, and clearly never took any heroic risks. ... or maybe you didn't die?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 13:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, that's the point. You didn't die, because you can't. You wouldn't necessarily have died in those great deeds that got you your reputation, but if you actually meddled in other people's business and repeatedly ruined villanous/heroic plans, you would have made enemies who wanted you dead.
It's not always the case, of course. There's always room for exceptions. But as a general rule, if daring and (in)famous PCs live for several years on average and eventually just fade away due to lack of interest (or keep being played indefinitely) there's probably something to improve in the overall tendencies and culture of the game. A violent end should be the norm among adventurers, after all. There's a reason the world isn't full of filthy rich, all-powerful retired adventurers who've saved kingdoms and erected castles, despite the constant horde of new kids getting into the field. I can't name half a dozen heroic deaths I've witnessed on Amia. How much more lasting an impression could a legendary PC make by dying in the Siege of the Crags or getting stuck in his own web of deceit after manipulating organizations to do his bidding, as opposed to PCs who do their share of good stuff and then just get archived or brought out every six months for nostalgy?
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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corypx
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 13:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Quote: You're not epic and great for living 5 years and taking part in a dozen great DM plots. You've just outstayed your welcome, and clearly never took any heroic risks. as Tormalk said, maybe you just did not die. yeah but speaking of heroic risks and junk like that... we are not on the same level as DM plot monsters and we never will be because of "balance" in FR everyone is more or less on the same footing, you kill a DM boss monster it has a badass item of godly power its a OOC item that goes poof, in FR that guy would have taken it, a number of craftable items in FR you cant get on amia because its overpowered. I focus on trying to become much stronger but I really know it will never happen because I have reached my OOC limit, Harm potions I ask as a OOC joke because OOC we all know they are not happening because of "balance" but in FR you have people like Larloch who is basicly Skeletors idol, strong,smart, powerful and contingency plans out the ass basicly being immortal. " he is protected by a chain contingency spell that teleports him to one of his safe rooms, completely recovers his health, and cures him of ailments as the greater restoration and break enchantment spells, which activates if he loses more than half of his health." _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 17:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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I imagine perma-death wouldn't be such an issue if people didn't spend 5 years working on characters only to have said character killed by some random who immediately follows it up with "//Lawls I killzed u!". For some people, a level 30 character is entertainment for a week, then they make another level 30. For others it's a piece of work they put their imagination and creativity into for years, they put effort that others do not because they simply aren't the kind of people to rush/grind to level 30 and bail.
Everyone wants their characters to either continue living, or go out leaving a mark of their achievements. Especially if a player has worked so long and hard on a character. This may sound kinda lame, but I can't imagine letting a PC perma-kill any of my two mains, simply because I don't trust any PC or player to give those main's the kinda end they deserve. An end that has as much work in it as I put in developing and growing my characters. I have no issue putting it in the hands of a DM, as I know a DM will give my character a suitably epic end should they die.
Perma-death will, and IMHO should, be only kept to DM events, or occasions where a player agrees their character being killed by another player. I would like to see more events where perma-death is a possibility, smaller events I mean. Not the grand year spanning events that happen. I would almost like to see all DM events have the threat of enforced perma-death. To give a little risk for reward and such. I would NOT like to see perma-death introduced as a player vs player consequence, not in the slightest.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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corypx
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 17:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Selvec Darkon wrote: I would almost like to see all DM events have the threat of enforced perma-death. To give a little risk for reward and such. so in some events replace the current OOC safty net of no perma-death but also remove the OOC wall of balance in terms of thier reward? _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 17:59 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Well, PC's are as heroic/villainous as you make me and as "epic" they are allowed to be by the DMs.
If someone want's to be Amia's Larloch, you just gotta go after it IC(as I know you do from the few times I've RPed with you), and hope eventually that your RP comes to merit your PC seeks IC. I don't believe DMs ever go "absolutely no chance of this ever happening." Well, they might say it, but they have to. They have to make sure if an exception is ever made, it will be mindblowingly deserving of it to the point where, for RP's sake, it must be respected IC as what it is.
As for the IC renown, yeah, if your PC didn't die... maybe they're just good at what they do. Most of the famous fighters, leaders, etc from our own reality have lived and died hard and fast, but that's our world. We don't live in a world where magic warps the nature of what is or isn't. Who's to say Alexander the Great wouldn't still be alive if he had some means to live forever. Or at least be resurrected upon his death. It's a completely different place altogether, so to say "the best heroes do great things, then die" is a bit of a broad, and subsequently unprovable, generalization to make.
If anything, the greatest heroes don't die in FR. "Potions of Longevity". Elminster. Larloch. The greatest characters of this world find a way to either extend their life, or ascend, or descend to something entirely different and continue their stories.
And Corypx, I think a few DM's have already done what you spoke of. I've seen one DM at least say "accepting plots etc now that will include the chance of permadeath but rewards will be greater." Or something to that effect that the chance of permadeath includes a greater reward should you succeed. Greater risk, greater reward, etc.
_________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Nekhy
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam
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Bleh, people die in my events because I can't build properly balanced NPCs. You want to permadie for that? Really?
I think it's best handled case by case.
_________________
Current plots:
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
Prod me for development-related stuff.
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Pony
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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What really bothers me is the consequences the current way has on the atmosphere. When characters ic tell me that "No reason to fight banites, they will be raised and return the next day in greater numbers." or "Oh, do not worry, there is no risk. If you die we can raise you." then I will not be happy about it, as it destroys the chance to dive into a world of adventure and dangers. It is lame. It borders metagaming. It is childish. The fact such an ic mentality can even come to be is bullshit. Those who rp their characters like that should be ashamed for pulling a Valas.
Also, if we want to be blunt and honest, heroism does not exist on amia. I can not name one great battle where heros risked their life or anything big. Well, except those alternative beginning events where people are not yet so tied to their characters. This either means they do not exist or are far too rare. They risk pain, but that is it. In essence, Calin and Yaston are no heros who risked anything by attacking the Banite Keep. If it failed no real consequences would have been in effect, and hence it is easy to play such a "risk taker". The Banites risked nothing in Caraigh or in taking control in the amia forest or trying to at least.
When that is understood ic, it undermines and then slowly destroys atmosphere. Unless of course the intent is to be on a plane of endless battle where the dead rise anew each day only to start it over, there is something broken. Either due to the rules or the server or the mindset of the community. I am not suggesting to make a hardcore pvp server, but I am saying something is up in amia and perhaps we should actually try to do something.
Also, not everything needs to be risky with permadeath. "If you do stupid things, there will be consequences. You piss against everyone's leg and lose your faction base as a result? Then you will not get a chance to rebuild it in 2011. You play no consequences, but come alive unharmed an hour later after being defeated to pvp again? Okay, you repetitive pvp disrupts rp instead of actually adding to it. You can not cause trouble in place XY but with a dm for 3 weeks."
(Edit: I also do not mean to rip on anyone in particular. I see this problem with many people and groups, so banites, war knights and tks please do not take offense.)
Last edited by Pony on Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:22 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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I've really enjoyed reading this.
So our big problem is that death isn't taken seriously. Using Tormak's example of the person using murder because their face was slammed in the door, I would pose the question, "Well, what would possibly make someone do that?" I don't think that its just because they like to spam hottness, I would argue that its because that person saw a quick death as something that the enemy wouldn't forget. Which, is interesting, because ideally, that character would never be alive to remember.
ANYWAY, I was thinking that instead of proposing ways of dealing with death, what of dealing with life? I don't believe its death that's so insignificant- Its INJURY. How many healing potions can one chug before they feel the pains of battle? (I know a new system has been implemented, and kuddos for that). How often do we see someone running around "Badly Wounded". And how simple of a fix is it to "Restore them to full health". A paladin walks up, lays on hands, then walks away, and somehow that makes life all better again.
Perhaps if injuries were taken more seriously, death wouldn't have to be used like a knockout punch.
Its hard to incorporate high divine magic with this, but I believe that some big steps can be made by engaging in more active "Injured" roleplay. Hell, even the roleplay itself of tending to their wounds will put emphasis on the failure of stopping the bleeding- Death.
Just my two cents. I think our focus could be aimed at the Injuries.
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Kudark
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Mr. Hackums wrote: I've really enjoyed reading this.
ANYWAY, I was thinking that instead of proposing ways of dealing with death, what of dealing with life? Try going for their wallet (gold), family, people or things they care about, etc. You don't have to kill them, but you can make their life a miserable hell. _________________
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Grymia
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I have to agree with Phearnun.
There's a lot of feeling that no matter what happens, you will still be able to come back from being killed. With the more recent ruling requiring that any True Resurrections be observed by a DM, that's a step in the right direction. (Though it may simply encourage a lot of death followed by corpereal immolation or what have you)
That said I have seen a number of people who do try to RP the consequences of severe injury. Hell, Tuomas is STILL at least in part recovering from what was done to him in the Wharftown Obelisk, and various further excaberations.
I empathize with people who end up at the bad end of being felled in a PvP and are (practically) stuck at the mercy of those who've captured them. Most experiences I've had in these cases, the ones holding me have had a fair deal of class about it. (Being accomodating within reason and keeping the RP enjoyable while still getting what they want out of it or try to)
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Admittedly, I'm usually more interested in maiming and crippling PCs than outright killing them, tbh. When I craft a story, death must have a meaning....or have meaning in the fact that it seemingly has no meaning (but actually does, because meaningless death is a bothersome concept in and of itself).
Thus far I've taken a forearm and given several PCs a legitimate insanity (they even have an item in their inventory detailing their specific kind of madness.)
Folks have been pretty careful since then, but you never know. For the record, there are 2 Banite PCs who may yet stand to have something horrible and lasting happen to them due to a condition neither of them knows anything about...
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The Cobbit
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 18:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Location: Satellite Of Love
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I just try to imagine when PCs stand about Cordor talking about how many times they died yesterday, they mean it in a hyperbolic fashion, and not actual death.
I also like to assume that the scrolls used so often aren't so much raising dead so much as they're reviving someone who got beaten into unconsciousness or was otherwise rendered unable to fight.
How many times has my main PC died? None. But he's gotten his ass handed to him on numerous occasions, and so hobbles about on a crutch nowadays.
_________________
I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.
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hendrack
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 19:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Yossarin wrote: What's the point? By the lore PCs never remember the fugue plane anyway, and the only things that are story-relevant occur in the land of the living. DMs can break this mold if we so choose, but if we need to for the sake of the story, we'll have our own section of the fugue plane created. This would be awesome, if your character truly dies for good the emotionally attached players could continue to RP in the City of Judgement, awaiting their verdict from Kelemvor or something. Yeah, I just played through MotB again... Also, 'working' on a character for 5 years kinda defeats the purpose of having fun, IMHO. I mean, when Amia shuts down any time in the future, are they gonna cut their wrists?
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Tue, Feb 15 2011, 22:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale
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Only issue I see would then be the amount of people dying to get in. Literally. Plus, you then have the same issue... Not like you can die twice over when you are already dead.
_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,
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Fierene Havenstar
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 1:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Location: Hopping around the space time continum
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Janna Ogder wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Stop [removed] killing each other. When you stop flinging around murder because someone shut a door in your face (true facts: I saw this yesterday.), then death becomes dramatic. There is a certain sect of PCs who does not kill at the slightest provocation, and so when death enters the equation, you know it has gone south. And they do it with the knowledge that the person will probably come back, yes, but that death is plotted and carried out with MEANING, because it was the final solution, the last escalation when nothing else would work. And when they die? Because they're involved in these life and death situations so rarely, thn their own death becomes more meaningful, both to themselves and to the person who did it. People lament the lack of rivalries? People lament how nemeses never work? Here's how it works: You don't bloody kill each other first off. I'm dead serious. This is the answer, but as always, it requires a sweeping change in player culture to execute, and as long as people xist that say "Most people suck at RPing this way, jsut ignore them and look for the good ones", as long as people exist that aren't willing to give and set an example without being given to first, as long as people are ging to perpetuate the cycle simply because "they do it too, so why not?" then nothing is ever going to change, and I'll just have to sit and watch people make derogatory comments about other players and areas in party chat.
Make death the last solution and not the first response and everything will become more meaningful in turn. But as long as people do what they do... welp.
Welp. Best. Post. Ever. Seriously, thats most awesome idea I have seen yet. I'd love to see that. I'm jumping on this Tormak band wagon! Seriously, it can be done. I have an evil character who plots revenge and it has never involved killing the target. I've had to get creative to be sure but it's been fun to implement vengeance over several weeks/months and see the target suffer. It’s much more fun to have RP with a character who can do something besides emote *continues to bleed, blood pooling in a nice resemblance of that lake in Amia Forest*.
_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 2:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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corypx wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: I would almost like to see all DM events have the threat of enforced perma-death. To give a little risk for reward and such. so in some events replace the current OOC safty net of no perma-death but also remove the OOC wall of balance in terms of thier reward? Pretty much. The higher chance of a character dying, the bigger the reward in my opinion. I mean, in PnP if a level 3 some how manages to kill a level 18 Elder Dragon, they get to keep the treasure horde, and all the XP that probably takes them to level 14 at least. Probably find some more rewards to because a freakin' level 3 some how managed to kill a freakin' level 18 Dragon.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 2:43 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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As I said, I believe that's already the case. I would say the DM, but I've forgotten and I don't wanna call the wrong one. I'm not sure if anyone has taken him up on his offer, though.
The feeling I've gotten is that if PCs are willing to put forth the effort and accept the risk involved, there are fewer limits on what we as PC's can or can't have/do/become. Fewer than we perceive there are, at least. It's just a matter of taking the risk and successfully executing the actions worthy of whatever reward.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Youthanized
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 12:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: Somewhere in Canada, eh?
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My two cents on the issue as a whole are as follows:
Forced permadeath sucks. I mean, if any of my characters were killed and I couldn't recover them, I'd be real pissed. I've spent hours, months, and in Riala's case, years of my time into their lives. I'd rather it not be erased in an instant.
That said, the DM event permadeath idea isn't bad, since it's optional.
_________________
Elvannrae: The Palest Elf
Charrae "Zarual" Swiftshadow: The Amnesiac Monk
Quealé Nirivani: Kin of the Fey
Rue Aridonaire: Wind-Touched Hin
In-Game Login: KestalEluith
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 15:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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IronAngel wrote: Well, that's the point. You didn't die, because you can't. You wouldn't necessarily have died in those great deeds that got you your reputation, but if you actually meddled in other people's business and repeatedly ruined villanous/heroic plans, you would have made enemies who wanted you dead.
It's not always the case, of course. There's always room for exceptions. But as a general rule, if daring and (in)famous PCs live for several years on average and eventually just fade away due to lack of interest (or keep being played indefinitely) there's probably something to improve in the overall tendencies and culture of the game. A violent end should be the norm among adventurers, after all. There's a reason the world isn't full of filthy rich, all-powerful retired adventurers who've saved kingdoms and erected castles, despite the constant horde of new kids getting into the field. I can't name half a dozen heroic deaths I've witnessed on Amia. How much more lasting an impression could a legendary PC make by dying in the Siege of the Crags or getting stuck in his own web of deceit after manipulating organizations to do his bidding, as opposed to PCs who do their share of good stuff and then just get archived or brought out every six months for nostalgy? No, I mean, maybe you simply literally just did not die. I know characters thta have not died, because THEY HAVE NOT DIED. They're not functioning under "The safety net", they just haven't been killed. And they have done the things you state.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 16:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Aha. Well, they'd fall into the "exceptional heroes" category and have nothing to worry about, wouldn't they? And when lesser heroes die their memorable deaths, all the more glory for the few survivors. (Though it's possible nobody just bothered to organize their death because they knew it wouldn't mean anything.)
I don't really know who deserves what and how things should go with individual PCs. But looking at the statistics, it's clear that Amia has very little death, completed stories and heroic sacrifice (or villanous blazes of glory). On average, PCs shouldn't live as long as they do. I do acknowledge there's a lot of disagreement over this question, and some people think they should put a lot of "work" into their PCs and keep them around forever. But I think that exactly is one of Amia's biggest problems. Youthanized's argument above reads to me like a examplary symptom of this illness, and only supports my point. That kind of thinking is the problem, not a preventive measure. I think things would be so much more fun and satisfying if PCs had their stories that actually ended in success or failure, if the world just moved more dynamically. We could also do with much fewer Mary-Sues who're around their 16th incarnation that has nothing to do with the original character concept anymore. The most important thing would be to learn to let go of our PCs and give priority to the storyline. People talk about permadeath as if it was a loss or a setback, but we could learn to enjoy it and treat it as the satisfying conclusion of a story. Just introducing the possibility of enforced permadeath won't magically change attitudes, but it's the necessary first step.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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corypx
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 16:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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but then you get people who make throw away PCs, look at the problem we have now in the world... suicide bombers.
now what if you give that side a unlimted number of suicide bombers, well then we would be screwed.
because really as I view it DMs dont let you run in and rape towns because they cant perma death you...so now your idea is say let them perma death you so they will just make suicide bomber evil chars murder some people in pally town... guards kill them...end of story they make a new suicide bomber, DO IT AGAIN!
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 16:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I like to think we would call people on that kind of extreme bullshit quickly and violently.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 16:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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That's ridicilous. Why would you pick a side OOC? Why would the DMs let you do that? If Permadeath is always subject to DM review despite being player-initiated (as it should be), don't you think they'd know griefing when they saw it? And do you really have that little faith in people? Why does this problem not exist on other servers? I'm not even sure what kind of "suicide bombs" you could get your hands on without DM help, anyway.
Your point is just an example of cowering behind hypothetical problems to scare us away from attempting change. That's an incredibly frustrating phenomenon almost every improvement idea runs into here. Maybe my idea isn't good, but now you're just making up problems.
I never suggested automatic permadeath from PvP, anyway. The first step, as I said, would be the possibility of requesting permakill authorization from the DMs.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 16:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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IronAngel wrote: I never suggested automatic permadeath from PvP, anyway. The first step, as I said, would be the possibility of requesting permakill authorization from the DMs. For one's own character, or for another player's character (or NPC, too, I suppose)? Figured you'd want to clarify that. The former is already in action. The latter is only halfway - I've dealt with requests to permakill NPCs before, but I put them to a rather rigorous litmus test for whether it is story-appropriate or not, basically a utilitarian weighing on the ability of such an action to actually generate interest in and stimulate RP. Plenty of players LOVE to claim, "Oh, you should let me do this, it would be GREAT for roleplay!" but they just throw that rationale out in the same way that Republicans cry out, "A Democrat proposed it so it must be a horrible idea!" There's no actual thought behind it (or if there is, the thought process or its perspective is seriously flawed, which is entirely possible as the original post that started this thread proves), and it is just being tacked on as the "winning argument". Honestly, most people find that it is rather difficult to wantonly permakill an NPC for no good reason. Typically, NPCs don't get in the way - PCs do. Hence why PC permadeaths are ideally a larger goal. The roadblock is the player and the player mentality, as you point out, Iron. We're in agreement, honestly, I just feel that as a DM I can't really push this agenda very far without risking completely alienating a large portion of our playerbase (a portion I could personally do without, but I struggle to be a team player).
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 17:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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For other players' PCs, I mean. Ideally, of course, there will be full agreement; your PC got caught with his pants down and my PC wants to get rid of him for good, so we really shouldn't need any requests to agree to let things take their course IC. But in the current state of server culture and knowing the whims of the human temper, DM authorization on the finality of death would go a long way in establishing such good practice. (And to be specific, permadeath should be permanent only insofar as it is, and I wouldn't want to artificially rule out valid means of resurrection when applicable.) Yossarin wrote: The roadblock is the player and the player mentality, as you point out, Iron. We're in agreement, honestly, I just feel that as a DM I can't really push this agenda very far without risking completely alienating a large portion of our playerbase (a portion I could personally do without, but I struggle to be a team player). I think this is spot on. Admittedly, I'm comfortable pushing this because I no longer have to be a team player. I can advocate my own interests with all the ruthlessness and rhetoric at my disposal. I don't have the power to effect any objective change from above, so I hope to effect at least a change in attitudes. I am not sure how far it's smart to go in forcing this on players, but attitudes are malleable. So is the constitution of the playerbase, and alienating some players in favor of others isn't fatal as long as it's not too drastic and sudden. But either we settle with what we have or take the risk and push, push, push, however gradually and conservatively. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 18:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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I have to say that I agree with Phearnun's points.
It personally does make me retch when I hear IC that 'no one ever dies', because I know exactly what that's in response to. It's an IC rationalization for an OOC abuse, and frankly, I don't think that is something that should just be rolled with, because it's immersion breaking at best and downright idiotic at worst.
Now to be clear, I don't mind that PCs can't be perma-killed, and I don't support perma-death, but I think that there should be something done about respawn abuse.
Situations where PCs ICly claim to be immortal, or are PKed 9 times in an hour, just respawn, re-rest, and attack again, should -certainly- be discouraged. It's not borderline metagaming, it -is- metagaming. The only thing is that there's no clearly defined rule against it, so it's abused.
And I can also see the incentives to 'join' that bandwagon if others don't, IE: If PC A kills PC B 10 times in an hour, PC B respawns then comes back each time, then kills PC A after a rest, should there be any lasting impact on PC A? Because that downfall was a rather direct response to rather blatant metagaming. Even in lighter cases, it's hard to not join the bandwagon, misconduct spirals. I'll confess I'm not perfect in this regard, I won't pretend to be.
But I don't think the solution is perma-death, else then PCs could be permakilled in front of NPC guards or the like with no one to raise them. I think a better solution would be to lay a smackdown on anyone abusing respawns like in the above hypothetical scenarios. Incedents like this should be discouraged, minimized, and I think having a stronger grip on that behavior is a step in the right direction. Adding an explicit rule to not metagame respawning would be a good start I think. I don't mind that PCs can respawn, as that helps avoid griefing and pre-mature character story ending, but metagaming on such a scale really shouldn't be acceptable, whether ignoring NPC guards, IC abuse of tells, or respawn abuse.
_________________ I play: 
Last edited by The1Kobra on Wed, Feb 16 2011, 20:01 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Feb 16 2011, 18:41 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I think I suggested way back when a "significant death" option on the Hostile Wand options.
On selecting a Corpse, one could select "significant death." The corpse would be unable to be raised for X amount of time. I was thinking maybe an hour or so. Or until reset, perhaps. Corpse Player can still select to go to Fugue, but will not be allowed to respawn until time is up. Caveats:
*Limited number of times this can be used per reset(enough where you can take care of the band of bandits that have been following you and trying to kill you all reset by respawn whoring, but not enough to go running around PKing the whole server and griefing). The easiest and most effective way to ensure this, I think, would be to have a timer count the time from your first use to your next. As in, you can "significant death" up to 4 people per reset, so long as you do them all within say 3 minutes. After 3 minutes, whether you've done them all or not, you can't use any Significant Death option again until next reset. Again, enough time for you or your party to select the other people, but not viable to run about, randomly killing people and use it.
*Linked occupancy. If you "significant death" someone, and the PC you killed them with logs off for more than X minutes, the significant death notation is lifted from them and they are able to respawn. My reasoning: the main purpose of this system is so that your epic rival that you just fought over a lake of lava doesn't come waltzing around the corner 2 minutes after you bury his body. If you're not going to be on and continue to RP, there's no reason for him to stay "gone". It can just be assumed that whatever IC hours, days, etc have elapsed and they are back.
Reason I'd push for this to be a Hostile wand option over the way we implement all death is because it would interfere with arenas, duels, brawls, and perhaps less significant fights.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Feb 17 2011, 3:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Quite frankly I could easily see myself leaving this sever after years of play if PC's ever got the power to inflict perma-death on my characters. I'm fine with it being my choice, or a DM's choice though.
Players are fickle stupid gits who constantly like to abuse the rules and typically cannot be trusted with even the most minuscule amount of power. The moment a player gets a power, he gets really really stupid and starts doing dumb things. There is simply to many players on Amia that seem to get some kinda sick enjoyment out of ruining everyone else's day to universally give out the power to permanently kill another players character. Furthermore I can't think of anyone who wouldn't feel a little bit pissed at finding their hard worked character gets their life ended by a few powerbuilds that abuse the games mechanics and suffer no consequences for their actions. Nor do they particularly RP their character well, rather ignoring all the flaws their character should have.
Personally I'm 100% against players ever being allowed to Perma-kill without another players permission, as people on Amia have yet show me they have enough common sense or moral decency to not abuse such a gift. Hell there is a whole faction that would give a collective shout of glee if they could abuse such a thing.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Selmak
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Posted: Thu, Feb 17 2011, 18:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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When it helps the plot, characters can die. When players just want to win, it doesn't help for characters to die, because a lot of players want to feel like they have won. You don't 'win' a plot. It runs its course and what is important - what motivates players - is the struggle, not the eventual result. So what if there are a few familiar faces each week? You can't honestly expect new people to enter such a plot and fill the shoes of the fallen just like that. What you really need to address is this IC notion of no-one ever dying, or rather that it's really easy to come back to life once you are dead. Mechanically something as simple as adding a five minute timer in the Fugue Plane with a message like "You must wait five minutes to return to home and life," would not be terribly inconvenient, but still make death something to avoid if possible, and not so easy to return from. There's nothing that says you must be able to get back out of the Fugue plane straight away. In-character death should be a big deal, but it's not because it apparently happens so often you'd think that a DM is having a sneezing attack with the kill button. If you want it treated more seriously, you might try attending your own funeral sometime. I hear there are rites for that sort of thing. Jokes aside, if you want death to be special, rare, and feared, you need to stop aiming for the win and start actually thinking about what's good for the plot. Winning and losing are states of mind, not matters of fact, as you can see often where the victors have written the history books. What actually happens is, if there is a fight, people are hurt and can die. On both sides. Whether characters should continue to fight to the last man or concede when they are beaten, that's up to you to decide, but decide well. It's far easier to negotiate an end to hostilities when you're willing to accept defeat than if you simply want to inflict as many casualties on your enemies as possible. If your character is able to get up, walk around and do stuff after dying in battle, then coming back to life and being healed, that's as a result of the convenience that the game engine offers. Instant return to life. Instant healing. Instant coffee. Well maybe not that last one, but anyway if it was me I would be looking for some coffee to calm my bloody traumatised nerves, not wandering off to go and get myself killed again. Sod that. It would be refreshing if characters contemplating a return to the situation which got them killed would behave like people and say, "Sod that." You can make it so. Just you. Nobody else.
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