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Drow suck compared to wood elves?

Wood elves: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT

Drow: +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 CHA, -2 CON, Spell Resistance 11 + level, Bonus Feat: Darkvision, +2 will saves vs. spells and spell like abilities, Spell-like Ability: Darkness, Light Sensitivity.

Spell Resistance is too strong to go for anything under +2 ECL, really.

Yes. Drow suck compared to wood elves.

We've been over how +2 ECL ruins the whole deal; considering that

A) Charisma paired with Int is usually worthless.
B) Light sensitivity isn't optimized to go across areas, and people abuse the crap out of it whenever random pvp happens.
C) Spell resistance that gets morded and really isn't high enough to beat pure casters without spell pen anyways.
D) you lose your level 30 feat, which is the most important one in the game.

Wood elves are pretty much one of the strongest subraces, though, so a lot of them will suck if you compare them.

But they're never going to lose that ECL without losing their SR too.

Make it non-mordable? It -is- natural SR, isn't it? And yes, I will agree with you there. Wood Elves own, but now Earth Genasi have them beat. At this rate, not that I play my drow anymore, but I'd rather just not have that SR anyways. It's only useful against fire giants, beholders, etc, and welp, anything can knock those over.

None of the races really "suck"; they've got their own quirks and specialties. Some races make better fighters, some better magi. I find it somewhat bad taste to argue over what is the most superduper powerbuilder's wet dream race on Amia. Of course making a nice build is part of the game, but building is still secondary to RP, and that seems to be something many forget.

What is the point of making balance changes if you're going to completely ignore balance?

Last edited by Mr T on Thu, Jan 27 2011, 19:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.

As expected ''blah blah you're wrong'' amian argument. Seriously if you are stuck on comliness = charisma then thats fine. If you can justify why half of the most hideous monsters in the game get a charisma bonus yet it hasn't got any 'force of personality' component then thats fine. If you can justify how sorcerers that use Loreal and win modelling contests can cast more and stronger spells then thats fine. As Blackdragon said its a pointless discussion that goes nowhere with the amian group think.

As to losing DD as an option meh, but the WoF is a problem mostly for PvP. But lucky amia isn't a PvP driven server right? right? :roll:

As to it being my own personal view quote the SRD

Quote:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Only one of these is attractiveness. With that I'm out.

Needled247 wrote:

Make it non-mordable? It -is- natural SR, isn't it?

The particular source of drow SR is a debated thing. Lloth's blessing, Wendonai's blood, a side effect of Faerzress, an unintended boon of Correlon's damnation or the High Magic ritual that turned the Ilythiiri, the list just goes on.

In any case, whatever its source, I'd imagine it's a Supernatural ability, and is by that reason alone is subjectable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I don't particularly feel it should be made otherwise for RP or balance reasons.

I'm sure the decision to change genasi was debated as much as it needed to be. Let's not go throwing other hats into the ring prematurely. If any other subraces are going to get changed, they're probably going to be done so by the dev team, on their own time. Nehk said they're not looking at it right now, so that should resolve it for now.

The module is pretty balanced as it is.

Last edited by luckyz7777 on Thu, Jan 27 2011, 19:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Why introduce imbalanced subrace changes into a "balanced" module, then?

Good change for fire and water genasi. Earth genasi didn't need this.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

hendrack wrote:

Quote:

Name a devil or demon which *routinely* has mortal progeny with a negative to charisma? For the *last* time charisma is FORCE of personality not looks or how farmer Joe regards you.

Thats your definition of CHA. Go hit search and see what others think.

or go read the players handbook definition of charisma..which includes physical appearance..*Rolls eyes*

In the books Genasi have +1 ECL...

*rolls eyes*

Honestly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Seriously...no good can come from this change. But then, this isn't the first time the powers that be have completely jumped the shark.

Ziacat - Build thread. That really say's it all right there.

For goodness sake, the changes haven't even been in for a good day yet.

Can we please see how this goes a little before we go running around like Chicken Little? It's not like the "powers that be" just woke up yesterday and said "No ECL for Genasi! Make it happen!". Jeez.

It doesn't take much math to realize that fire genasi just became the best wizard,
air genasi best shadowdancing wizard,

and earth genasi for any melee or str ranger build.

It happens for every change we make, it's kind of expected.

welp, not from me. the other changes made sense. this doesn't.

And there's a problem with this? There will always be a best.

usually one considers other classes because there are advantages and disadvantages, not just "oh, this is the best."

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

In the books Genasi have +1 ECL...

In the books Genasi are also restricted to humans. Our genasi is a planetouched template.

in essence the only buff they received was +1 feat and +1 AB.

+1 feat and +1 ab is the difference between being on par and being head and shoulders above everyone else.

I can see +1 feat being big, but not to the point that it may completely ruin something. I understand that there's big room for exploitation with the new changes but I'm willing to see how things pan out before I just flat out say "well that was a bad decision."

I'd also like to note on the end of x genasi being best wizard that I don't feel that's even relevant in anything but PvM (and it doesn't take much to be good in PvM with wizard) considering mage PvP seems to boil down to who gets the first TS off.

I still don't want to make an Air or Earth Genasi.

Banishment, Greater Planar Binding and Good/Evil Turning, Ranger Bane of Enemies and the occasional anti-Outsider weapon are vulnerabilities I just don't want for the sake of +2CON, thankyouverymuch.

Zzzzz

Quote:

in essence the only buff they received was +1 feat and +1 AB.

And a feat, and a level to work with in tweaking builds that reach for the abilities of multiple classes.

Quote:

And there's a problem with this? There will always be a best.

In my opinion, this is what any argument on mechanics comes down to. Balance is an illusion. It sounds good when posited as a reason to make a change; present debate notwithstanding, this is in general the only appeal of the word because it doesn't mean what people deduce from it. Balance, when you get right down to it, means a group of people's idea of ideal playstyle variability. It's different on each server because eachs erver is run by people with their own tastes.

I think this debate is blown out of proportions, though. The Genasi can be Banished, Dismissed, Word of Faithed at any time. Compared to the +2 CON that Fire Genasi gets compared to a Sun Elf (as far as wizards go, for example) this is an adequate trade-off. Looked at another way: if Fire Genasi is now needing a nerf because it's the best choice for Wizard, then prior to this Sun Elf/Halruuan needed a nerf because they were best suited then. But no one was saying that.

The only thing I still say is that Tieflings are left out in the cold in this. They don't have the ECL free status of Genasi with comparable ability boosts, but can still be Banished. Their benefit is a 1/Day Darkness which can be useful, but the 5/- becomes usefu only against part of the flame weapon effects on items past a certain level, if not completely obsolified by stronger resistance items. But it's my view on it, it's not a pressing matter or anything.

The Human subraces never should have existed to begin with.

TormakSaber wrote:

The Human subraces never should have existed to begin with.

I agree entirely with that, especially considering the only thing seperating "races" of humans is a few stat changes which only works towards builds. (I might be wrong and there might be other things that work towards the differences, but I think that's it)

They should have, but they should've covered all the major ethnicities of Faerûn (instead of the current crazy set where some minor groups of obscure lands are represented but there's no Chondathans or Rashemi, for example), and they shouldn't have gotten arbitrary stat bonuses but just flavorful background feats and/or skill bonuses. IMO, anyway.

Not really taking sides here but if genasi are so universally recognized that they get a -2 CHA than they should have some kind of distinguishing feature (visual, descriptive, whatever) that identifies them as genasi to PCs. Also, a weakness that is never exploited because there is no way to know when to exploit it is no weakness at all.

If it were a distinctive coloration or physical attribute similar to the Drow being dark-skinned elves than genasi could hide or reveal their heritage the same way the Drow do on the surface - via RP or use of distinctive abilities. Or maybe that's already the case? I have no idea since I've never been a genasi or knowingly encountered one. If so, ignore me.

P.S. A distinctive voice set would be interesting but I don't know how often the voiced emotes get used on Amia.

You can do this... To a limit. NwN only allows for a certain Phenotypes to use and ..well, It's rather limited suffice to say.
Unlock all the 2.da Files and you can choose whatever voicesets you want upon character creation. Same with portraits and with the new HAK models there's plenty of 'Genasi' heads.

Xolodnik wrote:

Not really taking sides here but if genasi are so universally recognized that they get a -2 CHA than they should have some kind of distinguishing feature (visual, descriptive, whatever) that identifies them as genasi to PCs. Also, a weakness that is never exploited because there is no way to know when to exploit it is no weakness at all.

If it were a distinctive coloration or physical attribute similar to the Drow being dark-skinned elves than genasi could hide or reveal their heritage the same way the Drow do on the surface - via RP or use of distinctive abilities. Or maybe that's already the case? I have no idea since I've never been a genasi or knowingly encountered one. If so, ignore me.

P.S. A distinctive voice set would be interesting but I don't know how often the voiced emotes get used on Amia.

Genasi and Tieflings get negative Charisma because that's just the way it is in D&D. They were implemented faithfully. It doesn't necessarily make sense, but D&D rarely does. One way to look at it is education: where do you get your force of personality and your social habitus from? Your childhood home and your education. Your "charisma" is a result of your upbringing and how well you function in a social context. Planetouched are usually despised, feared, or at least treated different than other children. They are the Other in a community. Their poor charisma is a result of the poor cultural capital they've had in the field of social interaction since childhood. There can be exceptions, sure, but racial modifiers always indicate the average.

As for appearance, any Planetouched really should have visual traits. On Aasimar they can be more subtle, but a Tiefling or a Genasi ought to be recognizable unless they were specifically disguised. That's not to say it can be feasibly controlled, of course.

Quick skimming this thread I see a lot of 'Balance' whining...

Balance is a farce in DnD in the sense of "oh my measly fighter should totally be equal toy your Mage" blah blah blah, etc.

You have machetes, paper, scissors, rocks, sharp pointy sticks, bows, and the list goes on. Each has a purpose and a role to play within any given party that is every bit as vital to the group's overall success as the others. DnD simply wasn't made for any of the PvP b.s. but rather for characters to come together, make up for other's flaws, and function as a group while kicking some major butt and completing tasks.

As folks go a bit further into RP here, and in NWN multiplayer in general, not every day can be a dungeon crawl and PvP is bound to occur. Just take comfort in the fact that every build has a weakness, and where your PC might fail, perhaps one of your buddies may succeed. Otherwise instead of complaining just be damn glad for the amendments made to classes listed under the modified classes link on the sidebar in addition to all the fancy subraces offered here that you would be hard pressed to find anywhere else.

Staff decided to do this and as Dark pointed out, it hasn't even been 24 hours... so chill and come to grips with it because it's happened and it will take time to tell if it was a mistake or not.

Xolodnik wrote:

Not really taking sides here but if genasi are so universally recognized that they get a -2 CHA than they should have some kind of distinguishing feature (visual, descriptive, whatever) that identifies them as genasi to PCs. Also, a weakness that is never exploited because there is no way to know when to exploit it is no weakness at all.

Google Image searching for Genasi suggests that it's absurdly obvious if you're planetouched in this way.

I wonder if it's possible to make the Entry doors stamp that onto people's biographies?

IronAngel wrote:

Xolodnik wrote:

Not really taking sides here but if genasi are so universally recognized that they get a -2 CHA than they should have some kind of distinguishing feature (visual, descriptive, whatever) that identifies them as genasi to PCs. Also, a weakness that is never exploited because there is no way to know when to exploit it is no weakness at all.

If it were a distinctive coloration or physical attribute similar to the Drow being dark-skinned elves than genasi could hide or reveal their heritage the same way the Drow do on the surface - via RP or use of distinctive abilities. Or maybe that's already the case? I have no idea since I've never been a genasi or knowingly encountered one. If so, ignore me.

P.S. A distinctive voice set would be interesting but I don't know how often the voiced emotes get used on Amia.

Genasi and Tieflings get negative Charisma because that's just the way it is in D&D. They were implemented faithfully. It doesn't necessarily make sense, but D&D rarely does. One way to look at it is education: where do you get your force of personality and your social habitus from? Your childhood home and your education. Your "charisma" is a result of your upbringing and how well you function in a social context. Planetouched are usually despised, feared, or at least treated different than other children. They are the Other in a community. Their poor charisma is a result of the poor cultural capital they've had in the field of social interaction since childhood. There can be exceptions, sure, but racial modifiers always indicate the average.

As for appearance, any Planetouched really should have visual traits. On Aasimar they can be more subtle, but a Tiefling or a Genasi ought to be recognizable unless they were specifically disguised. That's not to say it can be feasibly controlled, of course.

Case in point:

Little human kids aren't going to treat a young one of those things nice. Neither are other people. They're strange, scary. Their physical traits make it incredibly obvious what they are. This poor treatment throughout childhood is what gives them their negative Charisma, as Iron stated.

And also: that is not hawt. Unless you're just weird.

Edit: I just randomly compared them to the Avatar cartoon series and Bending abilities... >.>

The pictures are extremes if you go off the text; without quoting verbatim, it says something to the effect of they have one or two traits - for example: like aquans having webbed digits and greenish skin, aurans having pale skin and a constant breeze around them, ignans having hot and reddened skin and burning-looking eyes, terrans having skin the texture of sandstone and eyes like black marble.

The pictures, IMO, were always a "this is what you look like if you apply every option."

It would be simpler to say that's just the way it is than to try and come up with a consistent interpretation, I think.

Quote:

Little human kids aren't going to treat a young one of those things nice. Neither are other people. They're strange, scary. Their physical traits make it incredibly obvious what they are.

For example, the same quote can apply to dragonborn, chromatic and metallic alike, and yet they get no CHA penalty (they even get a bonus). The Genasi penalty is just something that's there.

There is a reason why a sanctuary was created by a wizard for Genasi.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Wood elves are pretty much one of the strongest subraces, though, so a lot of them will suck if you compare them.

But they're never going to lose that ECL without losing their SR too.

SR is Mord-able, and thus temporary, no stronger then a spell. As such, it shouldn't be considered a good reason to keep the ECL quite so high. If the SR wasn't Mord-able it would make sense and I'd agree completely. But as its just one common epic wizard spell away from being removed, it shouldn't be given as a reason to keep the ECL +2.

...not everyone can use Mord's?

Monsters, for one.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

...not everyone can use Mord's?

Monsters, for one.

Monster can't, true. But Players can. Thing is, Amia can't add one thing that's clearly directed at PvP (Assassin Kit) and then ignore PvP balance when it comes to something else.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

Make it non-mordable? It -is- natural SR, isn't it?

The particular source of drow SR is a debated thing. Lloth's blessing, Wendonai's blood, a side effect of Faerzress, an unintended boon of Correlon's damnation or the High Magic ritual that turned the Ilythiiri, the list just goes on.

<snip>

The transition from 3.5 to 4.0 explains: the source of their SR is the Faerzress (trilogy The Lady Penitent, Book 2: Storm of the Dead, to be more specific). It was also the reason why they were powerful in the Underdark and when coming to the surface, their magic gear was useless, and even some of their spell-like abilities would not work (trilogy Starlight and Shadows). The latter was erased with 3.5. The former, with 4.0.

Yeah, the transition from 3.5 to 4e.

It's never explicitly stated for our Amian timeline. And I'm leery to trust anything said about Drow from any novel whatsoever, just because authors take liberties that are often mistaken as fact for the setting as a whole.

Needled247 wrote:

hahah... wtf.

Earth Genasi = wood elf on steroids.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

There is a reason why a sanctuary was created by a wizard for Genasi.

Ironically, the Sanctuary of Portal was used by almost no Genasi ever, because most of them felt just fine where they were. Instead it became a haven for outsiders and interplanar criminals.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yeah, the transition from 3.5 to 4e.

It's never explicitly stated for our Amian timeline. And I'm leery to trust anything said about Drow from any novel whatsoever, just because authors take liberties that are often mistaken as fact for the setting as a whole.

Agreed.

And yet, I very much prefer the explanations that came with that trilogy. They seem the most sensible to me.

But, alas, I am going Off Topic. I shall stop posting here now, but my PM inbox is always open if someone wants to talk about this. :wink:

Zinovy wrote:

Quote:

Well, it has an effect on how the average folk regard you.

I disagree with the quote because this is Amia. Every street corner has its own half-dragon (CHA bonus, not penalty even for the evil ones) kobold (no CHA penalty) etc. This isn't to say that they should all have CHA penalties, but that a tiefling isn't a big enough deal to warrant -2 CHA, in my opinion, given the frequency of freaks running around.

Kobolds which get a -4 Str in exchange for +2 dex and a few minor +s to a couple skills and darkvision? I think they're penalized enough, if not too much.

Thoice wrote:

Kobolds which get a -4 Str in exchange for +2 dex and a few minor +s to a couple skills and darkvision? I think they're penalized enough, if not too much.

Want to give them ECL -1? :lol:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Thoice wrote:

Kobolds which get a -4 Str in exchange for +2 dex and a few minor +s to a couple skills and darkvision? I think they're penalized enough, if not too much.

Want to give them ECL -1? :lol:

Nah. Make them all Dragonwrought and put some fear into the common man. Flying Kobolds for everybody! :lol:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Thoice wrote:

Kobolds which get a -4 Str in exchange for +2 dex and a few minor +s to a couple skills and darkvision? I think they're penalized enough, if not too much.

Want to give them ECL -1? :lol:

That or some other kind of benefit for the major gimping of -4 str.

The benefit is they are playing a monster adventurer amongst non-monsters. Something that'd normally be a rarity.

- cha on tieflings is very easy to explain: Horns. Tails. Black, soulless eyes. Clawed fingernails and so forth. Really, RDD's should recieve massive cha penalties too because they are all ugly freaks.

If a character has any of the traits mentioned above, it should be no surprise that he/she might have a penalty to charisma, simply because they are ugly freaks.

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