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Kudark wrote:

Trust me, I never considered myself wise, but the years have granted a measure of wisdom that was not there in my youth.

QFE Amen!

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Jan 19 2011, 18:59 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I've observed no correlation between age and wisdom, personally. I think people feel they've become wiser over the years because they may have settled into their ways of thinking and are content to gather evidence that supports their world view, but more imporantly, because people of any age feel that they're at their smartest right now. Whenever have you heard someone say they were wise three years ago, but got dumber recently? Humans can't really reflect on the present like that, which creates the illusion of a stable growth of wisdom. That doesn't mean it has to be true at all. Wisdom isn't something cumulative. How can you tell, for certain, that you've become wiser? Maybe you really have, and you can see it clearly. But suppose that you haven't, and you've instead become more blind; you wouldn't be wise enough to realize it, so you'd still think you've become wiser. So in conclusion, personal experience and testimony isn't viable evidence.

Or how many times have you heard someone say that "people were smarter when I was young?"

Anyway, the attribute you're referring to is more like "reason" or "sense", and there are thousands of different opinions and definitions about the thing we call wisdom. However, the fact you're pointing out is also how NWN sees it and I doubt perception or willpower get better the older you get, in fact it's quite the opposite. I'm not sure what's said in the core book, though, but I wouldn't expect too big a difference. I agree with you, but it's just a book. We ourselves decide whether to roll with it or not, but it's still bloody stupid.

IronAngel wrote:

I've observed no correlation between age and wisdom, personally. I think people feel they've become wiser over the years because they may have settled into their ways of thinking and are content to gather evidence that supports their world view, but more imporantly, because people of any age feel that they're at their smartest right now. Whenever have you heard someone say they were wise three years ago, but got dumber recently? Humans can't really reflect on the present like that, which creates the illusion of a stable growth of wisdom. That doesn't mean it has to be true at all. Wisdom isn't something cumulative.

It seems I have to repost this:
How old are you?
Ask me this question when your ears dry off a bit.
Trust me, I never considered myself wise, but the years have granted a measure of wisdom that was not there in my youth.

Iron, though what you say may be partially true, I think that for the most part, one has to be able to look back and learn from life experiences to gain that wisdom, or more of it. You can't reflect on the present, but you can compare with the past.
I find as I teach my children on life, that I have indeed grown wiser.
Once you have some years under your belt, get out of school, and on your own, you will see what I mean (not pointed at Iron, just a generalization).
It's not something that is so easy to explain, at least for me, I'm not as eloquent and elaborate as some, but time has an effect on you more than you think it will. I didn't really understand these things until I had kids of my own (I was 30 when 1st one was born) and started on their life training.

Your points don't really convince me, because I just pointed out that our personal experiences are unreliable as evidence. I believe I'm wiser than I was five years ago too, of course. But because I would feel that way whether it's true or not and because there's no way to tell them apart, it's really not very informative. Just humor me and suppose everything you've learned over the past 20 years was actually quite misleading, inaccurate, harmful, ethically dubious, or based on false assumptions. Suppose that tomorrow you would realize that your experiences until now have been leading you in exactly the wrong direction and you've steadily become less wise for 20 years. This is possible, no doubt. But here's the deal: before tomorrow's revelation, how could you know today? Until you realize your folly, you'll be quite convinced that your experience has made you wiser.

I don't deny that you learn from your experiences. But you don't necessarily become "wiser" (whatever that means); your experiences might mislead you, you might go in circles, you might go through revolutions and revelations akin to Kuhnian paradigm shifts or total conversions of world view, your supposed wisdom might indeed cumulate on a given basis for years without you realizing that the basis was wrong in the first place. Or maybe you're just an unreflective, very practical person who goes through life without challenging or scrutinizing the assumptions your world view is based on; you will no doubt gather a lot of evidence and tacit knowledge to support your world view and way of life, but that's hardly wisdom. My point is, you learn from experience but there's no guarantee you learn the right things, whatever they may be.

No doubt some people get wiser as they grow older, but I'm sure there's an equal number who become dull, dim-witted, set in their ways, uninterested in anything outside the scope of their daily lives. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this, but I doubt they'd be called wise by any definition of the word (which I'd rather leave open, because I think we can roughly agree on a term that suits our purposes here). The effect of age is also exaggerated. The difference of a 15-year-old and a 25-year-old is no doubt huge, but the difference between ages 40 and 60 is (on average) probably quite small. Other personal qualities factor in way more, and most people will never be as wise and perceptive as some 18-year-olds even if they live a hundred years. Age and experience may have some effect, but I'm fairly sure an active frame of mind, intentional reflection and natural qualities are way more signifigant.

I am 21, by the way. But I'm old and wise enough to realize an argument stands on its merits, not those of its maker.

I'm not saying it holds true for all, everyone is different as we all know.
And, you think that personal experience is unreliable as evidence, but you haven't had enough yet to really tell.
Even if experiences have led you astray, hopefully you have learned something from them. Once you realize that you were wrong, now you have gained a measure of wisdom on that subject.

This happens to Crow fairly often, but he learns from his mistakes and strives to do better in the future, I consider that gaining wisdom.
I find it difficult sometimes to 'dumb' myself in order to have Crow do or say some stupid shit because of his low wisdom, but he's intelligent enough to know when he just [censored] up. As a character, Crow has grown quite a bit, especially recently. In my opinion, he has gained some wisdom, and that reflected on his last ability increase. Most of this is due to experiences he's had, and people he's talked to influencing his way of thinking.

Like I said, give it time.
You are a well educated and intelligent person who is capable of formulating your thoughts cohesively, unlike myself who struggles to put down in words what is racing through my mind.

Judging from my observations of Crow, I wouldn't necessarily say that he's grown a sense of wisdom - but more an understanding of the interpersonal discourses and dynamics reflecting his immediate surroundings.

What Iron is trying to say, and I support his arguement completely, is that wisdom is more or less an indelible quality that can be atuned, but never attoned. We cannot entirely understand, or effectively perceive ourselves like others would, therefore we cannot say whether we are wise, or have become more wise, or have become more absent-minded... I think you giving unto your children what you have learnt in life, and believing it to be an atonement of wisdom, I believe is simply you becoming more aware of what you do know, and realising your own potential as a moral, worldly human being.

However that does not warrant a development in wisdom.

Silvarus wrote:

Probably because there are not enough subraces for a wisdom-focused one to be one of them, and to keep elves at ECL+-0

Speaking of subraces and especially elven subraces, THEY SUCK.

Noldors are damn awesome! :evil:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Or how many times have you heard someone say that "people were smarter when I was young?"

Anyway, the attribute you're referring to is more like "reason" or "sense", and there are thousands of different opinions and definitions about the thing we call wisdom. However, the fact you're pointing out is also how NWN sees it and I doubt perception or willpower get better the older you get, in fact it's quite the opposite. I'm not sure what's said in the core book, though, but I wouldn't expect too big a difference. I agree with you, but it's just a book. We ourselves decide whether to roll with it or not, but it's still bloody stupid.

our brains actually start to degrade after the age of 20 (approximate).

and nwn seeing wisdom is totally bonked up and doesn't reflect real life that well, it is a gaming system after all, as is dnd it is based on.

"A wise man knows that he knows nothing."

Elves think they know everything.

I think I hit the crux of the issue! :mrgreen:

Also elves get +1 wisdom from their age when they hit middle age, same as every other race. Ofcourse for the elves it takes them 175 years to get there. So if the age thing is a factor, since it's scaled by race.. a 60 year old human must be at least twice as wise as a 140 year old elf. Got to love flawed logic.

Gravemaskin wrote:

"A wise man knows that he knows nothing."

Elves think they know everything.

I think I hit the crux of the issue! :mrgreen:

Also elves get +1 wisdom from their age when they hit middle age, same as every other race. Ofcourse for the elves it takes them 175 years to get there. So if the age thing is a factor, since it's scaled by race.. a 60 year old human must be at least twice as wise as a 140 year old elf. Got to love flawed logic.

Perception is based on the views of the greater masses. The greater masses are humans. Humans see long lived elves and assume they must be wise, as most humans are quite wise by 40. Thus, reputation of wisdom is created. Eventually some of the elves begin to believe it themselves.

Actually my outlook on elves is more Shakespearean, Celtic, Welsh and even Asian tales of otherworldly beings than Tolkein. Tolkein elves make me feel that everything is just a little toooo.....British. (in the sense that I kept expecting Elrond to make everyone stop for high tea or face elven wrath.)

I rather favored the tales of the Fey, the Seelie and the Unseelie Sidhe courts than LoTR's Lego-my-Eggolas. Tales which had Elves and Fey largely being one single race rather than wildly different sister races. Tricky evil little suckers that would have made a Drow proud or possibly wet themselves, not sure.

But no, I was curious of the perceptions of Elves and wisdom but I can kind of see (after looking back through some of those tales recently) that a race as prone to emotional outbursts and influences over other things might be less wise than believed. Though I do thank you each for the discussion. ^_^ May it continue on with the same cordiality it has held so far!

Shakespearean?

Are you referring to Midsummer Night's Dream? Because I fucking hate that play... But if you are drawing a correlation between Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream and Fey (not elves), than I'd partly understand that. But even the fairies from Midsummer Night's Dream are governed by an undistinct law of magic that binds them to being good, as oppose to pursuing tom-foolery. Just look at Titania... She's a bitch.

Puck, despite him being under-the-thumb, is most akin to Fey, I'd imagine - but nothing like Elves.

Or perhaps you mean Jacobean period, as oppose to just Shakespearean - in which case, you'd be looking at Renaissance...

I just... I just... Give me some goddamn clarity!!

Colanah, you prefer Shakespearean over Tolienesque because the latter is too British? Odd, considering. Personally I would have said it the other way around.

Especially since the Tolkien elves were meant to be based more middle European. (Romanian? I can't remember the exact place he said he based them on, specifically the language)

But back to the original post I really can't agree that age really breeds wisdom. I know some very foolish elders in the real world. Just look at the state of our (political) planet for starters.

And does the WIS D&D score really equate to true wisdom? And is that really quantifiable? I would say no.

The wis score really more represents a character's "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition". So, in other words, someone with a high WIS score does not always mean they are 'wise', though someone that is wise would definitely have a higher WIS score (due to it's component aspects, I imagine).

That's how I see it, at least.

Folklore elves are better then Tolkein elves because they have variety. Tolkein elves are carbon copies of the main LOTR characters.

While it may be an interesting and fun topic for some to discuss, Folklore, Tolkein, Shakespearean and all that has zero to do with FR Elves. If you're using those to make a supporting argument for what an Elf is or isn't in our setting, you're waaaay off base. Those sources might bring some nice inspiration for your personal PC Elf and that's all well and good, but don't make the mistake of thinking that is what an FR Elf is.

A strange lack of wisdom in elves.

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