AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I want to start a shadow thief guild but need to know there are others interested in joining such a guild before I get to work on it. If you're interested you can send me a PM, there are no class or race requirements, alignment requirements:LE, NE, CE, CN

Almost every land and city has its own Guild of Thieves, who takes care of all illegal affairs of the city and surroundings. However, the Amnite Guild of Thieves has come a long way from being a mere thieving guild to become a powerful underworld organization, only surpassed by the feared and infamous Zhentarium. Their name, like those of their competitors inspires fear and respect: The Shadow Thieves.

The Shadow Thieves are believed to have its Headquarters in Athkatla, Amn, but which tentacles spread well beyond its borders. The true location of the Head-HQ is a very well kept secret even from its own high ranking members. The Guild itself works in an elaborate net of sub-cells and the members from one cell seldom know any member from another. Each sub-cell works disguised as simple Thieves Guild. The Leaders of each sub-cell are simply know as Guildmasters, like elsewhere. In turn, they will answer to a secretive and mysterious character known as the Cloackmaster. Low ranking members of the Guild seldom meet the Cloackmaster or are even aware they they work for the Shadow Thieves, thinking they simply working for a "normal" Thieves Guild.

The people of Amn fears and simultaneously respects the Guild. The Shadow Thieves run a reputation of honorably fulfilling the deals made with the nobles and merchants, as well as being ruthless and unforgiving to those who betray them. Most merchants know that they can count on their protection for a respectful fee and nobles and authorities know that they can count on the guilds description to deal with "embarrassing affairs". Even regular citizens are known to have asked favors once or twice. The organization are viewed as a necessary and useful evil by the amnites and a pretection against the foreign evil threats as the Zhentarium and Red Wizards.

The Shadow Mark

The trademark of the Guild is a black silk mask impaled upon a stiletto blade, usually used in assassinations, or left behind at the scene if a black garrote or poison is employed instead. It usually implies that the assassinated person betrayed or displeased the Guild in any manner. The Trademark is also used in messages to merchants, clients or other members, who usually are encouraged to destroy it if they received as a drawing in a written note. The Guild works mainly in secrecy and all members are officially forbidden to make use any of the mark, unless told otherwise by their superiors. Disobedience implies displeasing the Guild and that usually leads to an ill-ending.

Would need a DM's approval, IIRC.

If it's intended to be apart of the actual Shadow Thieves, then it would indeed need a DM's approval.

Though in my opinion this kinda breaks the cardinal rule of a thieves guild... Don't let your presence be known.

Why not do something with the Shadow Masks a couple threads below?

hendrack wrote:

Why not do something with the Shadow Masks a couple threads below?

Did you mean the Night Masks?

im new to dnd stuff and if this is common just say so, but why would lawful evil and chaotic neutral work together?

Ykanan wrote:

Though in my opinion this kinda breaks the cardinal rule of a thieves guild... Don't let your presence be known.

//This is an OOC thread. . . .

//Sorry this is my first attempt at anything like this and I was under the impression I need to at least have willing players before getting started on something like this, I'm very serious about starting a shadow thieves guild on amia so any DM that could approve or give me their recomendations I would really appreciate it.

Kudark wrote:

Did you mean the Night Masks?

Yep.

If you're really, truly serious you could have attempted to start it in-game and in-character. It's a lot more fun to find those interested in the same sort of stuff while playing it out, but to each their own I guess.

I take underworld RP seriously, and blatantly posting stuff on the forums just breaks my heart. I apologize if I come off as rude, I just think secret groups should stay secret.

If he wants to play canon Shadow Thieves he has to ask first though, but this should go to DMs via PM. I stand by my point to try to merge with existing groups on Amia like the Night Masks, than reinventing the wheel.

Ykanan wrote:

Though in my opinion this kinda breaks the cardinal rule of a thieves guild... Don't let your presence be known.

The fact that this is all OOC information that shouldn't be used by any character I think it's safe to say ICly people are still unaware of our presence

hendrack wrote:

try to merge with existing groups on Amia like the Night Masks, than reinventing the wheel.

Night Masks aren't Shadow Thieves hence why I tried to "reinvent the wheel". Thanks for your input though I'll work this out in PMs then.

The Night Masks aren't remaining as "Night Masks" and are becoming a whole other thieves group original to Amia, but to be honest I wouldn't mind seeing competing thieves guilds.

i have a character that's been trying to join a thieves guild for a while now, i have heard there are two forming atm, and i can certainly see some serious icly competition once they are going a little more.

Tho this night mask faction better get going the other has a head start.

p.s Venorik is still trying to locate them for another job

//I have an unofficial Shadow Thief. His connections have never been officially confirmed but he still says he is one.
I tried to start up a Shadow Thief guild myself with that character about two years ago, but due to some stuff (I won't go into detail as it's history), it never happened.

My character has equal reasons to join both guilds. Prove to him IC why he should join yours.

I'd love to see some RP between the more nefarious factions of Amia. There are some interesting underworld factions forming at the moment, and it will be interesting to see who absorbs who, and perhaps see the "baddies" attain a level of success. If not overt success, then covert success.

Trust who you wish, Draco. Though in a dangerous game such as this, even those who stand by your side are hard to be completely sure of.

A bit of extra lore about the Shadow Thieves. If a thief happens to fail a burglary, assasination, or just in general fail at an important task... Their foot is cut off and left at the scene of the crime. Pretty friggin' good incentive if you ask me.

// Oh I know, I caught up on all my Shadow Thief lore before making this decision. Already got a few good ideas of how to go about running it :twisted:

AAAAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: Look and ye shall find people. Someone said before that thieves guilds try to do things on the sly... being thieves and all...

EDIT2: You can't just spring up a thieves guild overnight. If you did that you would probably be arrested or killed. Like someone said above... see what's already there first. The name 'Shadow Thieves of Amn' doesn't grant you IC power based on reputation... people will still stick you in a barrel and drop you in the river.

billytheid wrote:

1.You can't just spring up a thieves guild overnight. If you did that you would probably be arrested or killed.

2. Like someone said above... see what's already there first.

3. The name 'Shadow Thieves of Amn' doesn't grant you IC power based on reputation... people will still stick you in a barrel and drop you in the river.

1. Shadow Thieves have been around for about a century, not exactly an "overnight" thieves guild

2. I did, there is no Shadow Thief guild on Amia

3. You obviously don't have a clue how Shadow Thieves operate, a Shadow Thief would -never- make themselves known unless they had a damn good reason to do so.

Are you looking for an apology from me or something? I'm SORRY I made this topic, I saw a couple other topics in this section were people started a faction in this manner but I guess they had DM permission to do so. So I apologize, still managed to find some people with Shadow Thief characters so that just makes me want to get this running even more then ever.

Ðraco wrote:

billytheid wrote:

1.You can't just spring up a thieves guild overnight. If you did that you would probably be arrested or killed.

2. Like someone said above... see what's already there first.

3. The name 'Shadow Thieves of Amn' doesn't grant you IC power based on reputation... people will still stick you in a barrel and drop you in the river.

1. Shadow Thieves have been around for about a century, not exactly an "overnight" thieves guild

2. I did, there is no Shadow Thief guild on Amia

3. You obviously don't have a clue how Shadow Thieves operate, a Shadow Thief would -never- make themselves known unless they had a damn good reason to do so.

Are you looking for an apology from me or something? I'm SORRY I made this topic, I saw a couple other topics in this section were people started a faction in this manner but I guess they had DM permission to do so. So I apologize, still managed to find some people with Shadow Thief characters so that just makes me want to get this running even more then ever.

Ok, sorry if I came off a little bit hostile. My point is that starting a Shadow Thieves sub-faction on Amia still brings with it an assumed power. The Shadow Thieves have a reputation and that will attract people who know their lore. What it feels like asking for is a license to start at the top. A specific Shadow Thieves guild may not exist granted... but Homegrown Guilds may.

When it comes to something like a thieves guild the competition is implicit; striding in with a Shadow Thieves flag and saying 'I'm a guild, respect me' undermines the whole concept of a cut-throat rise to power. A thieves guild built on a 'dogma' rather then the actions of it's founding members just feels a bit soft. That is just my opinion of course and others may see things differently.

Ya I get where you're going with that, but since the Shadow Thieves do exist why not have them? Granted some people like the fact of starting their own thieves guild from the ground up, but the fact that there are thieves guilds on Amia also means that there's profit to be gained right. Shadow Thieves would no doubt try to get a slice of it.

billytheid wrote:

Ðraco wrote:

billytheid wrote:

1.You can't just spring up a thieves guild overnight. If you did that you would probably be arrested or killed.

2. Like someone said above... see what's already there first.

3. The name 'Shadow Thieves of Amn' doesn't grant you IC power based on reputation... people will still stick you in a barrel and drop you in the river.

1. Shadow Thieves have been around for about a century, not exactly an "overnight" thieves guild

2. I did, there is no Shadow Thief guild on Amia

3. You obviously don't have a clue how Shadow Thieves operate, a Shadow Thief would -never- make themselves known unless they had a damn good reason to do so.

Are you looking for an apology from me or something? I'm SORRY I made this topic, I saw a couple other topics in this section were people started a faction in this manner but I guess they had DM permission to do so. So I apologize, still managed to find some people with Shadow Thief characters so that just makes me want to get this running even more then ever.

Ok, sorry if I came off a little bit hostile. My point is that starting a Shadow Thieves sub-faction on Amia still brings with it an assumed power. The Shadow Thieves have a reputation and that will attract people who know their lore. What it feels like asking for is a license to start at the top. A specific Shadow Thieves guild may not exist granted... but Homegrown Guilds may.

When it comes to something like a thieves guild the competition is implicit; striding in with a Shadow Thieves flag and saying 'I'm a guild, respect me' undermines the whole concept of a cut-throat rise to power. A thieves guild built on a 'dogma' rather then the actions of it's founding members just feels a bit soft. That is just my opinion of course and others may see things differently.

From previous experience at attempting to start a Shadow Thieves guild. No. Just No. You don't start at the topic. In fact, if anything people are more inclined to gun you down while your weak.

I think I remember that Shadow Thieves thing starting... the timing for you was most unfortunate. If I remember correctly you walked into the middle of a pre-existing turf war and like you said...

As a side note: there is plenty of room for multiple Thieves Guilds on Amia... hell, Cordor has a few districts to be divided up and fought over for a start. That's not to mentioon the other settlements...

Actually he doesn't need any dm approval to start any guild at all, however he does need DM approval for guild halls and it's own forum.

These can be settled if you want to do it without DM approval(but DM approved stuff helps greatly) by using PMs in this site, and simply renting a rentable house.

Red wizards and many other guilds have started...and they later got DM approved Forum/guild house due mainly to player interest...I doubt the DMs have changed it since.

Good luck....and don't listen to anything negative to discourage you from trying. Oh..and keep it secret...as in TELL no one..playerside or otherwise.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

Actually he doesn't need any dm approval to start any guild at all, however he does need DM approval for guild halls and it's own forum.

These can be settled if you want to do it without DM approval(but DM approved stuff helps greatly) by using PMs in this site, and simply renting a rentable house.

Red wizards and many other guilds have started...and they later got DM approved Forum/guild house due mainly to player interest...I doubt the DMs have changed it since.

Good luck....and don't listen to anything negative to discourage you from trying. Oh..and keep it secret...as in TELL no one..playerside or otherwise.

Um. They mean he needs DM permission to officially be a Shadow Thief guild. As the group exists outside of Amia. Same as the Red Wizards, they aren't officially Thayvians, which has been proven IC when Tarkuul contacted Thay about them.

Which is why the Night Masks are also considering changing their name.

Why would Thay choose to acknowledge them anyways? That isn't proof...that's someone telling you they are not from Thay.

As far as the Night Masks go...they died out anyways..so they don't funtion outside Amia..in fact lore wise they ONLY functon in Amia.

1: yes, he needs permission.

2: There is a moratorium on requesting faition areas and area changes. Don't bother. But not having a base should not stop you from roleplaying.

I'm not looking for faction areas or even our own little faction private forum, even the Shadow Thieves don't put pop up over night and establish control.
I'm still going to RP it out and am working on a faction page for the Shadow Thieves on Amia Wiki.
This is gonna be fun

Please don't put a Shadow Thieves page on the wiki. There is already enough OOC knowledge out there for people to know that they exist. You said yourself you've received a few OOC PMs from people. That should be enough.

Also, "... a Shadow Thief would -never- make themselves know...".

uh, why not on Wiki? Wiki=/=Character knowledge. lighten up Billy

I'd rather see players informed and able to then play their character in an acceptable fashion than see a million and one rogues in the back alleys pretending to be open about being shadow thieves.

DustSpray101 wrote:

uh, why not on Wiki? Wiki=/=Character knowledge. lighten up Billy

I'd rather see players informed and able to then play their character in an acceptable fashion than see a million and one rogues in the back alleys pretending to be open about being shadow thieves.

Same info can be meta-gamed and used against them. Don't trust in the common sense of other players. It simply doesn't exist.

There are a few extremely secretive factions on the amia wiki as is so I'm not sure what I'm suppose to take from that.

Ðraco wrote:

There are a few extremely secretive factions on the amia wiki as is so I'm not sure what I'm suppose to take from that.

Well you wouldn't really know about the secert ones now would you?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Well you wouldn't really know about the secret ones now would you?

OOCly, ya I would, the whole argument is that it will be metagamed, if people feel so inclined to metagame info on the Shadow Thieves they'll still find a way whether it's posted or not.

I don't plan on disclosing every detail about the Shadow Thieves in the wiki, that would just be stupid. But ya as Dustspray said I would much rather have people have a general idea of what they're RPing, requirements and so on.

Alrighty, goodluck then.

Ðraco wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Well you wouldn't really know about the secret ones now would you?

OOCly, ya I would, the whole argument is that it will be metagamed, if people feel so inclined to metagame info on the Shadow Thieves they'll still find a way whether it's posted or not.

I don't plan on disclosing every detail about the Shadow Thieves in the wiki, that would just be stupid. But ya as Dustspray said I would much rather have people have a general idea of what they're RPing, requirements and so on.

Every new player that comes here and looks at the wiki will think 'ah, the Shadow Thieves must be THE guild on Amia'. They will then enter the game on the assumption that the Shadow Thieves are THE guild... it's true because it's there in black and white as they say.

In this respect, after considering what is associated with and sought by thieves guilds in game and in character, putting a post up on the Wiki about a thieves guild with power beyond the Isle of Amia boaders on metagaming.

It is nice to let people know what you want and expect from a character before they join your guild; personally I feel it'd be nicer for them to make a theif and be thrown in at the bottom with no knowledge or expectations. This way their character will exist even without the Guild. OOC knowledge WILL impact the way a person creates a character, more so if they don't know if the knowledege is actually a big secret.

billytheid wrote:

Every new player that comes here and looks at the wiki will think 'ah, the Shadow Thieves must be THE guild on Amia'. They will then enter the game on the assumption that the Shadow Thieves are THE guild... it's true because it's there in black and white as they say.

And that's not the case with the Night Masks? So only one thief guild should be allowed on Amia Wiki so all the new players go with that?
People will play whatever they want to play, if they can properly RP a Shadow Thief and want to join then that's completely up to them. If they go to all that trouble and find they can't RP a Shadow Thief properly then they're in for some OOC disappointment because their character is just going to end up in a ditch with a knife in their back.

If he wishes to do it that way it's his choice, no matter what others opinions on the matter. That the procative of being the faction leader, or creator of a faction.

Your procative as a player is to decide if you agree and want to join in. You don't have to join the Shadow Thieves if you don't like something being where it is. I'm sure if it was an issue the DM team would leap on it.

Ðraco wrote:

And that's not the case with the Night Masks? So only one thief guild should be allowed on Amia Wiki so all the new players go with that?
People will play whatever they want to play, if they can properly RP a Shadow Thief and want to join then that's completely up to them. If they go to all that trouble and find they can't RP a Shadow Thief properly then they're in for some OOC disappointment because their character is just going to end up in a ditch with a knife in their back.

Well... to be honest I feel the same way about using any faction that can't really be verified. If that includes the Night Masks then I'd apply the same formula.

It's not BEING the faction that concerns me it's the propagation of knowledge about the faction that concerns me. The Night Masks and The Shadow Thieves would be an awesome thing to discover in game and in character if you were a new thief; they would be a target to aspire to instead of a power to assume.

Yes and no. I understand the viewpoint, truly. But not all of us play that way specifically.

For instance I enjoy having a goal and at minimum a gist of information about where I may end up before choosing a path to RP. Give me a list and say "You can one day be any of these! And here is a small taste of what they're kinda like!" and I will be more motivated to try my best to be noticed by said groups in the appropriate fashion.

On the flip side...

All these "Keep it hidden and don't even mention it OOCly!" comments are absolutely appalling to me in that it insinuates that, unless someone already knows what is expected of them and acts a specific way, they must flounder about and fail over and over and over again without aid. This is just wrong to me. Instead of lending a hand to those that wish to get a better grasp on the setting/what RP to expect/how to interact, those posting these variety of comments come across as asking we stick to a system of snobbery. I truly hope that the way this is coming across is inadvertent. The elitist mindset that I see these comments as asking that we hold with is something that, I feel, holds no place in a community such as this where like it or not our -player- status is no better than someone brand new to the setting regardless of how very cool our PCs are. Someone brand new to the setting that approaches things with a little education can have a character concept just as great and as much as an asset to any 'hidden' organization as a character belonging to someone that has played in FR for years.

Last edited by billytheid on Thu, Oct 21 2010, 5:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

DustSpray101 wrote:

All these "Keep it hidden and don't even mention it OOCly!" comments are absolutely appalling to me in that it insinuates that, unless someone already knows what is expected of them and acts a specific way, they must flounder about and fail over and over and over again... .

I spent ages doing exactly this in thief RP. I still do. It took alot of hand wringing and self-flaggelation to realize that it's the nature of the beast. When it come to the betreyal and gormless villany of thief/assassin/spy RP it's just the way the cookie crumbles on Amia.

You cannot really kill a PC here... they have nothing to lose by betreying you except RP possibilities. Often a single bribe of a rare item will be enough to bring down months of intense crime/spy RP. But hey, you chose to trust them. You wouldn't believe how galling it is for me to admit that that's just the way it goes RPing a crimminal with immortal enemies.

Now, as you said, that's not everyones cup of tea. It does explain why so few thieves guilds survive on Amia however. You make the wrong person bitter and angry, they decide that they have no IC fear of death, the jig is up.

Without option of aid? of any sort? Please, if you are going to bother quoting me, quote the whole of the sentence. If someone knows the setting they can adapt to it. Someone brand new to FR won't even have a clue. A wiki page isn't a harmful thing unless it is spelling out where your top secret base is for the world to see.

Put it this way, Dust.

There's groups out there you can aspire to be a part of, that doesn't mean you have to know about them. If you seem like someone who would fit into a group that's out there, it's more than likely you'll be picked up. I understand that may be difficult to imagine if you have no idea what group may look at picking you up, but it's a double edged sword.

If the group is easily found, it may indeed find a lot of really good thief-y members. On the other hand it also has the ability to pick up those who.. aren't so good. The game of thieves filled with those who are looking to rise to their own power, and look to rid themselves of their enemies. This leads to people joining said group merely to expose and expunge them. This is how it should be, how it is, and likely how it will forever be.

While not every player of a rogue is like this, the problem I've noticed with those who would be ideal for "guild" groups like this it that some thieves don't enjoy the idea of having someone above them. I know I don't, and I believe the OP feels the same way. People look at groups like this as simply a gathering of thieves, robbers, and other ilk to pull off a heist and split it. It's not, at all. Leadership is key in a guild, and those unwilling to adhere to an 'Arch Thief' are those unfit to be inducted. This is extremely elitist, but it's all IC.

The same issue for those of good reputation... There's at least 4 groups of Harpers on Amia. The only difference is that they are more secretive than a thieves guild would be, which is all that keeps them from interacting. A guild would be known through its exploits after it has time to benefit from being known.

I hope some of this is understandable... It's late and semi-difficult to think, let alone piece all this together coherantly.

I get the idea you are trying to portray, I think, but it is not a reason to avoid having a snippet in Wiki that is informative and also vague. All I am asking is that people not force others to play as they do: IE: "My way's the only right way." I'd expect on an RP server that others can respect that. Some people approach things differently and their route is just as valid as your own.

Such trivial information as general background info on Shadow Thieves or any other 'hidden' group would not be a detriment to the faction or those playing in it. For instance, in keeping with your comment about Harpers, a short explanation of what a Harper is will not tell you that Amia has more than one group of them, nor who comprises of what cell. It will tell you they exist and would aid a small bit in helping to shape how your character may experience/view/approach the world if joining them is your character's goal. The Wiki post suggested doesn't sound like it would contain a member list, meeting places, or even what it has its paws in. It would be a generic lore post meant to aid the player community.

Otherwise, in order to aspire to be something means that you must have an idea of what your goal is

Aspire wrote:

1
: to seek to attain or accomplish a particular goal

. To land elsewhere is great if that is where RP leads, but I doubt I am the only one that likes having a goal in mind when developing a character.

Last edited by billytheid on Thu, Oct 21 2010, 8:41 AM, edited 2 times in total.

That part about everyone wanting to be the King Pin is very true. It is also the reason most successful 'thieves guilds' that have existed on Amia, that I know of anyway, haven't had many characters that were created to be in thieves guilds.

There is a tragic irony to that; particularly the dog-eat-dog rise to power concept. The dog you just ate will be reincarnated as exactly the same dog in a few seconds and will sneak up and eat you. The usual reply to this is be 'smarter' with who you trust, the practical solution is be isolated and abandon trust. This is not conducive to Guild RP.

Immortality without recourse is the bane of secretive underworld RP... if people were to suffer significantly for biteing the hand that feeds them then it may be different... but who would want to join a guild who's entry required an OOC agreement to suffer perma-death or something similer if demanded by the Guild? No one! Why? Because there would be other groups that wouldn't have those heavy requirements.

And so dogs continue to chase each other around in circles.

EDIT: I should add that the majority of players respect the notion of IC fear of death, pain or any other retribution. In the case of something secret, the exception to the rule can be very small and still burn down the house.

SECOND EDIT: Having a post on the wiki is all well and good provided it is accurate. So, it is all well and good to establish the legend of the Shadow Thieves of Amn; to imply that this 'ledgend' also applied to the Shadow Thieves of Amia would be innacurate. A good deal of a thieves guilds appeal and power derives from it's reputation. This is something that should be earned through IC action.

Does having such an already established guild that's already existent in FR fall under the Noble title/famous relation clause of the rules?

I mean is having a shadow thieves/night masks/red wizard guild fall under the same thing as saying:

"I am the son of Ssaz Tam/Elminster/Drizzt Do'Urden"?

I think this is the main reason why it would need DM approval..and I understand the Dms need to have them approved or exist at all.

As for having the most simplest basic information I agree and disagree with Dust. On one side, it let's people know to ask, but at the same time it also makes the guild known throughout the whole playerbase..and simply put, some people don't even want the existence of their guild known.

Edited: Also let it be known tha the best guilds have survived due mainly to OOC relationships than IC relationships. The players that OOCly discuss things have a better friendship than some character in game. I myself have seen and pegged out several OOC relationships IRL that translate to better cooperative guilds IC because the players in question are sitting in the same room. I am willing to bet most times a guild is betrayed, it's not by someone who's sitting at a computer right next to you..and more likely someone you let in the guild IC, but do not know OOC.

boobookittyscrew wrote:

I am willing to bet most times a guild is betrayed, it's not by someone who's sitting at a computer right next to you..and more likely someone you let in the guild IC, but do not know OOC.

That is just flavor, and a touch of the unknown that makes the whole thing so engaging. Finding the betrayer is another opportunity for fun. For all I know the guy my character hired IC'ly is an enemy spy, or not, and thats fine with me either way.

Last edited by Goblin on Thu, Oct 21 2010, 16:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

It just seems to defeat the purpose. I found the Thieves Guild entry to be very simple, straight forward, without destroying immersion. Instead of my character being compelled and driven by forum posts, there were instead instances of my character being hunted down in various inns and being told "Meet X at this location..." or, bribing a beggar who were commonly spoken of in text during the game as being somehow friendly with the Grey Fox. Besides that, there were usually wanted posters and most store owners would have the thieves guild in their dialogue.

Alright, so 'many' of those suggestions aren't reasonable, but with the proper application IC focus your guild could become just as infamous without losing it's mystery.

Did I mention my post was based on the Thieves Guild in Oblivion? Because it is.

Janna Ogder wrote:

Finding the betrayer is another opportunity for fun. For all I know the guy my character hired IC'ly is an enemy spy, or not, and thats fine with me either way.

I believe you mean this sort of _Fun_

No... why thats not fun at all!

The Shadow Thieves

Who is online