AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Before a discussion breaks out in the requests area and ppl get vacations, ill start it here.

Quarter_From_Nothing wrote:

Quote:

Fey'ri are not a true elven subrace. They are to elves as tieflings are to humans and tanarukks are to orcs. The fey'ri are the result of interbreeding between sun elves and tanar'ri in an attempt to strengthen the sun elf bloodline. Most fey'ri become sorcerers, rogues or fighters.

Could one make elf with Tiefling as subrace, and RP it as Fey'ri, and maybe request wings for the char? If yes / no, please tell why and why not, not just an answer "yes / no"

Maias227 wrote:

No you can't rp it as Fey'ri as they are a very specific abomination of the sun elven race created by a power hungry sun elf family. They have a very specific role in Faerûn history and thus not readily available to players, similar to the Shades.

On Amia elven tieflings are allowed but they are not Fey'ri as they are not the descendants of that sun elven family.

Quarter_From_Nothing wrote:

Maias227 wrote:

No you can't rp it as Fey'ri as they are a very specific abomination of the sun elven race created by a power hungry sun elf family. They have a very specific role in Faerûn history and thus not readily available to players, similar to the Shades.

On Amia elven tieflings are allowed but they are not Fey'ri as they are not the descendants of that sun elven family.

But they are bit alike, and one could bluff to being one but really not being?

Maias227 wrote:

Well your character can icly claim he's Ao out for a stroll but that won't make him Ao either. You can say you are all you like but its very important to be aware that claiming your character is something doesn't have to mean it actually is so.

The actual Fey'ri requires an approved request to play.

Basicly what ive always figured.. What do you call an Elven version of a Tiefling? The elven Aasaimar would be eather a Celadrin which is from the blood line of Hanali Celanil’s followers. Eladree could also be Aasimar. You might call a drow tiefling a Draegloth, though thats a bit different, given the Drows tendancy to Pure Blood. So whats an Elven Tiefling? In my mind it simply be called a Fey'ri. Does that mean it is some ancient old enemy? No.. Just becouse the first Fey'ri to be recoreded were locked away dosnt mean another elf/demon/devil pairing hasnt happened sence then. Would it be rare? Very.

Now if you dont want an Elven Tiefling to be called a Fey'ri, or for an Elven Aasimar to be called a Eladree or a Celadrin. Then what would you have them called?

No idea. Nonhuman planetouched are all homebrew.

I'd just call them elven tieflings.

Tiefling.. as its the name of any being with partial (like 1/32 or 1/64 not 1/4) demon blood. Because Fey'ri are a special group and we dont want an other group of known evil beings hanging in cordor hugling with paladins and interacting in lesbian relations with drow do we?

Silvarus wrote:

No idea. Nonhuman planetouched are all homebrew.

This, I would call them tieflings though something else might have been established in the dawn of Amia time so feel free to correct me on that one.

They are however on no circumstances to be mistaken with the Fey'ri who are a specific group and race.

There are a lot of Elftieflings around. Some have descriptions you think they poured out from a demonic portal in Myth Drannor itself. Like Ron said in that request forum topic, theres not one requested Fey'ri around on Amia.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Fey'ri are a bit of a hot topic on the server, really. None have been granted yet. That said - look at the stickies in this thread for details on requesting a special character. I'd suggest getting more experience on the server first, however.

I disagree with Silvarus and Maias.

Non-human planetouched aren't "all homebrew." Their existance is verified even in Races of Faerûn, and the whole "human with planar traits" thing seems to be a 3e afterthought. I haven't been able to locate it in any older source, and there is clearly lore to suggest it's both possible and not uncommon (relative to the total number of the demihuman races, of course).

Furthermore, it seems quite correct to call them Fey'ri. Why wouldn't they be called that? They are fey creatures (as in the adjective, not the racial type) with Tanar'ri blood, ergo "Fey'ri".

On a side note: Fey'ri were also an available subrace on Amia, but they were removed because they got free wings, tails and glowing eyes. Not because they were unfitting to the setting. The "true" Fey'ri of Dlardrageth and their minions don't all necessarily even have wings and tails, mind you.

Either way, this wouldn't be known IC, and it would hardly be a relevant distinction to make for most. Whether they're Dlardrageth or not, they're genetically the same: demon blood mixed with elven blood; only the ancient lords of the Fey'ri who'd been imprisoned for millenia were half-demons or close. They possibly look the same: red skin, talons, whatever. Fey'ri or Daemonfey are not a distinct race, they are half-demons and the offspring of such, planetouched tieflings. They are not a "special group" as Phalanxyrian claims, it just so happens that there's only one organized group of powerful elven tieflings and half-demons on Faerûn who are known as the Fey'ri, and unrelated individuals are rare.

As such, it's perfectly acceptable to use the three terms (Fey'ri, daemonfey, tiefling) interchangeably IC.

Ah yes I quite disagree with that interpretation Iron. In paticular when looking over selected key spots in races of Faerûn which is the book we run by so let me just fish them out;

Races of Faerûn page 119]"there may be other fey'ri in Faerûn other than those allied with House Dlardrageth, but since the likelihood of an elf breeding with a demon is very small, such an individual would be essentially unique outside these four elven houses."[/quote]

The tiefling bit says;

[quote="Page 126 wrote:

"Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider, such as a demon... Fiend-touched and similary tainted mixes of elves (notably the Fey'ri)... and other races are known, but those are distinct lines and are not true tieflings"

Thats quite the oppesite of what you say. What these elven tieflings claim icly is all fine and dandy but they do not become Fey'ri just by that. Fey'ri are something specific.

We've settled for Fey'ri being the winged demonic elves of a certain canon house in particular and elven tieflings being elves with the planetouched template added, I believe. So they're called tieflings or planetouched like the rest of the races.

You can call them whatever you want, but they're still one and the same. Elves with demon blood, period. If you read the RoF quotes critically, it does seem to assume that Fey'ri are tieflings like any other, only a specific group called that for historical and political reasons more than anything.

And if you really know to read between the lines, you'll realize that the only reason Fey'ri are a seperate article in the book is to market The Last Mythal trilogy, but I guess that goes a bit too far into interpretation for some.

I also think it's false to say we "run by" a specific book. The Realms are an imaginary but independent world that exist and stretch beyond printed material. You must take the stance that everything printed is just an attempt at describing something that isn't the text itself, so you can apply appropriate criticism on the sources.

Regardless of what you choose to creatively read between the lines you have the posted statements of three dms saying Fey'ri is off limits to players without request.

By your own logic that is the team taking a stand, Fey'ri are the specific elves of those Sun elven noble houses. Thus something you have to request. Elves mixed with demon blood can are planetouched or just tieflings.

That's not what this topic is about, though. It's whether elven tieflings should be called Fey'ri, probably IC more than anything. And in that, the DM team has no greater say than anyone else.

But to comment on the whole playable race issue, which is another matter, you're woefully silly to hold onto it. The only reason they were removed as playable was because of the physical traits, which aren't actually something all Fey'ri share. There are no lore concerns, any moreso than with other Planetouched or atypical races. You'd see more Dlardrageth-Fey'ri around than Earth Genasi, these days.

My posts say exactly that you can say what you wish in character but doesn't change what they are?

I don't agree with you on the latter point either but I'd assume that has more to do with different viewpoints.

Well, you make the assumption that there's a difference between what they're called IC and what they are. That could hardly be the case. If something is named X, it is X. I doubt anyone would contend that. And I seriously doubt the people of Faerûn make a distinction between different kinds of elf-demon spawns that look alike and are genetically alike.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, you make the assumption that there's a difference between what they're called IC and what they are. That could hardly be the case. If something is named X, it is X. I doubt anyone would contend that. And I seriously doubt the people of Faerûn make a distinction between different kinds of elf-demon spawns that look alike and are genetically alike.

Just because I look like a hobbit and call myself a hobbit doesn't mean I actually AM a hobbit. There's a fine line here that your post doesn't seem to reckon for.

To be fair. I highly doubt anyone knowledgable enough to know the term Fey'ri (That being a Sun Elven / Demonic resulting creature possessing Wings, and a Tail) isn't going to be able to spot the difference between a Tiefling (An X with traces of Demonic Blood, such as fangs, horns, or other, rather minor ancestral traits) and a Fey'ri itself.

Thus they're likely to be named different. They may be genetically the same, but Fey'ri are, visually, of a far more potent caliber of demonspawn.

I did a whole lot of research on Fey'ri when I was hoping to make one on Amia, but when I discovered it'd cost me 50 DCs, I thought, well, there's no point. So most of my notes are now in some recycling centre somewhere.

What I remembered and what I can look up is basically planetouched is planetouched whatever the race, really.

Fey'ri, however, are something VERY specific. The "daemonfey". Basically a form of genetic engineering on the part of some very very foolish Sun elves.

Some people running a FR campaign may say simply this the only real occurrence of tiefling-elves. Or anywhere close to it.

Others, however, could simply cop out and say, yea, well, *Shrugs* there's likely elves out there with demon/devil blood from some way back. Who's to say? So, hell, I'll allow them in my game.

It's ultimately a DM decision, as they are, as defined, the dungeon masters. They have the last say, and what they say goes.

There is no right or wrong until the DM (or in this case plural, making things more difficult) says so. And I think that's the trouble of the latter part of this topic so far.

Still.. Kinda bumbed out about the 50 DCs... really broke my spirits.

Abomination.

Yossarin wrote:

Abomination.

My vote goes here

BrainSplitter wrote:

To be fair. I highly doubt anyone knowledgable enough to know the term Fey'ri (That being a Sun Elven / Demonic resulting creature possessing Wings, and a Tail) isn't going to be able to spot the difference between a Tiefling (An X with traces of Demonic Blood, such as fangs, horns, or other, rather minor ancestral traits) and a Fey'ri itself.

Thus they're likely to be named different. They may be genetically the same, but Fey'ri are, visually, of a far more potent caliber of demonspawn.

Well, some fey'ri have demon blood that's diluted through generations (because not all of them are the ancient ones who were locked away), and at least according to official illustrations, they don't all have wings. But yes, you're probably right in that the fey'ri in Sarya's army seem to be of stronger blood. But still, why would Joe Common invent another name for tieflings of seemingly lesser blood, when they clearly are related? I guess this is a matter of speculation, but the strong distinction the DMs are trying to draw here is artificial and doesn't sit well IC. Imagine the ridicilousness of the situation of two red, scaled and taloned elves hanging around some dungeon, and some guy going "Gasp, fey'ri!" to which another says "Don't worry, the other one's just a tiefling."

Merrien: if you were generally called a hobbit by everyone, you would be a hobbit. There's a fine line here that your post doesn't seem to reckon for: the meaning of a word is its use in language. Nothing "is" anything without someone assigning it a predicate. There would be no animal species, no constellations, no horizons without humans choosing to name them that. There'd probably be something, but it would lack any category, form or sense as we know it if we hadn't experienced and categorized it. So in fact, X is what X is called, because its name and nature exists only in our human reality as we name it. Otherwise it's just inconsequential and shapeless matter that isn't anything.

Yes, I know there are different stats for generic tieflings and fey'ri, and game-mechanically they are different. But that's not the argument here. We're talking about what they should be called, and whether they're a race distinct from tieflings rather than just one subcategory among many. So the perspective really is IC, because it would be foolish to discuss OOC what imaginary race an imaginary character is "really" part of.

AlphaWaves: the Fey'ri are a result of crossbreeding or genetic engineering as you put it, but that doesn't make them "very specific." It makes them the norm among Planetouched. Experiments, dark pacts, heavenly rewards. Yes, they are the result of a certain type of a demon mating with a sun elf several generations back. But do consider that if it happens again, with the same kind of demons and elves involved, the result is going to be remarkably similar. So it's not like they're some unique snowflake that couldn't happen again, it's just that they're many and powerful due to historical events.

What makes them specific is that they pretty much became something of themselves.

Tieflings can be anything, I guess, with demon blood, no matter how concentrated or recent.

Fey'ri only breed with fey'ri, so they are specific, and in a sense, a race set aside, focusing on cultivating their innate magical ability.

This owuld be why they'd have a favoured class as Sorcerer, and not rogue, as the general tiefling misfit.

IronAngel, you're getting into philosophy here, and that, as usual, takes it farther off topic than it was intended. Maybe more of an interesting debate, but detracting from the answers that the OP seeks.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Jun 11 2010, 21:08 PM, edited 2 times in total.

True, true. But rather than a seperate species, I'd say they're simply a certain type of tieflings. They certainly are tieflings, after all, with the exception of some of their half-fiend rulers.

Not every, non-demonic elven tiefling would necessarily be called Fey'ri. If they're slimy and hairy, dog-faced toads they're obviously different. But I should think Fey'ri is an appropriate description for any fey elf tainted with tanar'ri blood. The result would be similar, genetically, in appearance and power. Of course, the Fey'ri of old have cultivated themselves with magic and breeding so they're a distinct group, which I'm not contesting. My only arguments are that Fey'ri shouldn't be considered something different from tieflings but rather one sub-type, that Fey'ri are not genetically unique and as such could come from new bloodlines (without need for request, especially since the DMs refuse to call them Fey'ri), and that there is no drastic IC distinction between Fey'ri and other elven Tieflings of demonic descent, who would probably also be called Fey'ri.

Though I do agree with Maias' point earlier that few people know of the term. Since the big war began, however, I suspect the term deamonfey (or daemonfey?) has become increasingly common. So you'd probably have to replace the word "Fey'ri" with that in all the above posts for the most accurate result.

Edit: I'm not really "taking it into philosophy" because it's not to be considered an area seperate from all human thought. How could you probably have a valid argument without being philosophical, unknowingly or not? I stated a very relevant point, that if everyone calls elven tieflings Fey'ri then they are Fey'ri and there's no meaningful distinction to make. You said I missed a fine line, and I showed you I did not. It's hardly fair or good sports of you to discredit my reply rather than contest or concede to it, simply because it's thorough and as clear as I can make it.

To put it in even clearer terms, for convenience: whether or not X is Y has to be put into the context where X and Y are used, in this case IC Faerûn, because "X is Y" has no meaning without a context where experience gives it meaning. "Elven tieflings are Fey'ri" means absolutely nothing per se, it's gibberish. Therefore it's only understandable to discuss it in some context where it has a meaning, specifically in the world view and language of Faerûnian people (because nobody asked for D&D statistics from Races of Faerûn, which would also be a meaningful context.)

I am very much on topic here: I'm providing argumentation for my stance that elven tieflings would typically be called fey'ri or deamonfey, whether or not that's their OOC subrace.

Fey'ri are tieflings.
Tieflings can be (but also might not be) Feyri.

Think Fey'ri to tieflings as humans have Durpari or any other "race" humans have. Fey'ri are more, or differently evolved tiefling than the most general tieflings. They are special in the way that they have different blood and different traits than most of the tieflings, and most likely they do have some (eye color / etc) things that set them a bit apart from other tieflings ( tho they might look exactly the same in some cases).

Thus, Fey'ri are tieflingi, and tiefling most likely will not be Fey'ri. I don't know if Fey'ri breed with other Fey'ri only, but I can imagine they don't, cause if they would breed with others, it would take them further apart from their "family roots".

EDIT: And yes, if elf tiefling in game is called Fey'ri, it doesn't change the fact he is, as he is not build like Fey'ri. If he is like Fey'ri, then he most likely is, and should be requested from DMs. If one claims in his bio he is Fey'ri, I think that should be enough to put the alarms going off.

It might be hard to tell the difference between the two, but there should be info about the traits in the bio, to separate the two (fey'ri and the common tiefling) from eachother. And if one unauthorized bio would be seen, claiming one as fey'ri, would that be against the rules. So request needed.

EDIT 2: I do think they could be called Fey'ri, the common tiefling in amia, BUT I highly recomend and see myself (as having female elven tiefling) using the word "tiefling" as it describes everything. It tells that I am demonic blooded, which does NOT exclude me being a Fey'ri, which I am not, but I can still claim I am. Yet, I am and am called a tiefling never the less.

So no, I don't think people in general would refer to elven tieflings as Fey'ri, as no Aasimar Dwarf is anything bu Celestian being or Aasimar, who jsut happens to be dwarf shaped.

"Tiefling".

page 126 or the RoF wrote:

"Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider, such as a demon... Fiend-touched and similarly tainted mixes of elves (notably the Fey'ri)... and other races are known, but those are distinct lines and are not true tieflings"

So, if it's an elf... or anything other than human, actually... it's not a tiefling. It seems to me that it kinda breaks down this way:

Planetouched encompasses the whole spectrum of races with outsider blood in them. Under the Planetouched category you have Tiefling, which is a term referring to only humans, and you also have Fey'ri, which is a term referring to a specific bloodline of elven Planetouched.

So, all elves with demon blood are Planetouched, but not all of them are Fey'ri. Just as that same elf is not a tiefling. From an IC standpoint, the Joe Commoner probably wouldn't make that distinction and just call any elven planetouched individual a Fey'ri. Just as a person unfamiliar with a musical genre (such as metal) may not make the distinction between two sub-genres of that musical form (thrash and grindcore, for instance), I believe that it's pretty believable that they'd be called whatever is the most popular for the common man.

OOC'ly I think they should be referred to as deamonfey or just planetouched elf. IC'ly, call them Mr. Silly-stripey Pants for all I care.

Local House Rules overrule FRCS and other sourcebooks.

Tieflings are any base humanoid creature with Evil Outsider blood. Aasimar are any base humanoid creature with Good Outsider blood,

Fey'ri is as much a special race thing as it is a special request for background thing, IMO. Just like asking to be from a specific family/nobility mentioned in FR history.

So maybe genetically an elven tiefling and fey'ri might be close to the same thing, but as stated before, fey'ri are from a specific sun elven house. A sun elven house that likely any elven establishment(i.e. Winya) should rightly seek out any of its descendants they hear of and kill. The fey'ri are seen as a particular shame and abomination to sun elves, as House Dlardrageth(the sun elves that spawned the fey'ri) was an embarrassment and stain upon their otherwise superior, noble, and glorious legacy. That's what I'd figure would be the IC angle, at least.

I'd say just play a elven tiefling,have him call himself a fey'ri IC perhaps(and at his own peril), but know IC it is not completely the case. Unless you're hellbent of RPing a character that has an extremely detailed past and is going to be hunted down numerous times if word ever gets out of what they are, I'd say that's your best bet.

And this.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Local House Rules overrule FRCS and other sourcebooks.

Tieflings are any base humanoid creature with Evil Outsider blood. Aasimar are any base humanoid creature with Good Outsider blood,

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Silvarus wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Abomination.

My vote goes here

Agreed! KoS.

Wyjyn wrote:

Silvarus wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Abomination.

My vote goes here

Agreed! KoS.

The quote pyramid for the win!

I'd have to agree with Iron here. One thing, your average commoner probably would have no idea what a Fey'ri is,and if they've even heard the term, they'd probably just as easily would mistake a plantouched elf with demon blood for a fey'ri. Of course Elminster, or the Seven Sisters would be able to point out the differences between a plantouched elf and a fey'ri, but mr joe commoner can't. If Fey'ri actually does become the accepted term that all commoners know, who's to say Mr commoner couldn't make a mistake and call a plantouched elf a Fey'ri? Elf figure, some red scales, red eyes, and horns.....maybe the Fey'ri's a little bigger and has wings too, but if I saw a Fey'ri and a plantouched elf with demon blood standing next to each other I wouldn't go out of my way and say "Oh Fey'ri, and plantouched elf with demon blood, don't kill me!" I would probably say "damn, it's the fey'ri, run!" or something similar....then again...I probably don't make any sense.

Fey'ri look a LOT different than Amia's elven Tieflings, though.

Yeah, Fey'ri aren't all 7'0" tall.

That is funny how I see. Lot of over 5'5" elves around. Teifling is what I'll go for.

oshizo2 wrote:

That is funny how I see. Lot of over 5'5" elves around. Teifling is what I'll go for.

For the record, using the random height generator in the PHB with the modifications described on pages 39-40 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the height for elves is 4'10" + 2d10", which means the average is 4'10" + 11" = 5'9", and this 'bell shaped' curve is rather skewed ... as far as I can tell, there are only 21 possible rolls that will give you 5'5" or below, compared to 100 total combinations, meaning that we should only expect ~1/5 male elves to be 5'5" and under (the average for a female is 5'4").

This agrees with p.32 of the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun

Fey'ri are probably delicious. Like a good strong cheese. At least to red dragons.

Yossarin wrote:

Abomination.

Silvarus wrote:

My vote goes here

Agreed as well.

Everyone knows that male players can't resist the theme of a tragic elven damsel being stolen away and forced to have some scary outsider's babies whose female spawn that they play seek out other fellow male controlled female PCs to cyber with.

Its always human to try and complicate what doesn't need to be complicated. Tieflings are cyber characters because that's all they do. Simple, easy to remember.

What is an Elven Tiefling called?

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