AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

WonWon wrote:

To be fair;

I can't kill the Maskarran Leader 500 Times once discovering him, his evil deeds, his plots and his plans - why should I be killed 500 Times for instead deciding to foil aforementioned deeds, plots, and plans?

That

Also..

If a secret group gets it's secret out.... It's not secret enough!
If you're in a secret organization, and feel very good about how secretive you are.. Then suddenly BOOM! Someone exposes your evil plans. Don't go blaming them for outing you, but yourself for giving them the chance to.

Unless it's gotten OOC metaed somehow. Then it's all on them.

I've seen the question raised of: "Do you really make a contribution to the server by outing secretive groups?"

I think it's a valid question. And most of the time, I'm inclined to say that it's not much of a contribution, since it seldom furthers RP rather than spoils past and future RP (with exceptions: Read, Ron's exposure of Sharrans which generated tons of RP, for a lot of people).

But another question, which is seldom asked, is: "Does your secretive organization really make a contribution to the server?"

Again, I'm inclined to say, that most of the time, it's not much of a contribution.

If you're gonna be a successful secret organization, you'll be extremely limited in who you include and who you interact with.

Secretive factions are, in almost all cases, exclusive/secluded factions.

My ideology is that if half the server can't take part, be effected or somehow have an impact or appreciation of what you're doing, it's not worth doing.

But that's just me.

If you get revealed, it means you're playing the Spy Game badly.

If you don't like the spy game, or you're not great at it - simply enough, don't play it.

Just don't grumble when you get busted.

I don't know of too many secretive groups, who've never yet had a spy in them...so then, nearly ALL secretive groups fail your litmus test Gravemaskin.

I can name three secretive factions - two of which are still around, kicking, and active - which have yet to be infiltrated.

Knowing who to recruit is a talent.

Mr Mago wrote:

I've seen the question raised of: "Do you really make a contribution to the server by outing secretive groups?"

I think it's a valid question. And most of the time, I'm inclined to say that it's not much of a contribution, since it seldom furthers RP rather than spoils past and future RP (with exceptions: Read, Ron's exposure of Sharrans which generated tons of RP, for a lot of people).

But another question, which is seldom asked, is: "Does your secretive organization really make a contribution to the server?"

Again, I'm inclined to say, that most of the time, it's not much of a contribution.

If you're gonna be a successful secret organization, you'll be extremely limited in who you include and who you interact with.

Secretive factions are, in almost all cases, exclusive/secluded factions.

My ideology is that if half the server can't take part, be effected or somehow have an impact or appreciation of what you're doing, it's not worth doing.

But that's just me.

I think this is a very valid question, one that I've been wrestling with for a long time now myself. I can safely say, that some of the things that have gone on, that have affected major areas of the server, have been partially through rp by secretive organisations.

On the other hand, I think the DM events section tends to dominate the 'major changes' aspect of the server. It is not entirely clear what relation say, the Fire in Amia Forest, the Ultrinnan collapse and other things, was as a result of DM instigated plots or player instigated plots. Whether there was a secretive guild behind major changes or not, etc. Where do these plots originate from? NPC groups or player groups?

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 8:41 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

Uhm. When exactly were the Zhents outed recently? >.<

No... don't -actually- answer that question. From what I've read recently on the forums, there have been no outings of Zhents what so ever. Apart from the mentioning of such in this thread, that is.

Exactly. Hence there's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape.

Mr Mago wrote:

Generally speaking, I've never been much of a fan of "spy" RP. I don't really see it contributing, and it falls into the category of "Potential rewards with no risk".

When you join an enemy faction as a spy, you really don't take any risks in doing so. If you fail, you'll get thrown out and perhaps even killed. But you'll be alive again the next day anyway.

Also... "spy" RP isn't the equivalent of: I rarely, if ever log on with my spy (who often is an alt), and all of my "intel" is copy+pasted from the faction forums.

We've had quite a few of those in the Banite faction. I don't care much about it, but it certainly doesn't make me respect you either.

In general, the spy-game doesn't work on Amia. I know that there's tons of spying back and forth between Amia's opposing parties, but it's not like you're really accomplishing much. It is, generally speaking, a lot of cliques stroking their own e-peens in taking part of exclusive secrets which others don't get to see.

And since everything inevitably gets outed at one point or another (aka: Every time someone leaves the Banite faction, *sigh*), I've changed the way I plot and do things on Amia, so that it would be unaffected by any potential exposure. The Banite faction has adapted that change as well.

Thanks for your support Mago.

.

I agree with a lot of your points, in fact almost all of them... but I'd like to point out in this situation we're really talking OOC'ly, it's all about the players, and not the characters. This is when I'm going to chime in and say it (especially being one of those "revealed"):

I =loved= what Quar'Agh did.. and who's to say what he revealed the "DreadLord" didn't want to be revealed? It's classic fear-mongering, Quar'Agh is doing Frey's job for him....

I mean.. all caps CHECK YOUR LOVED ONES?

*lol*

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'd suspect the reason Eary hasn't outsted the leader of the Zhents is:

1.) He's not gotten around to it yet. Sharrans were top of the list.

2.) He's not willing to mess with that individual (or yet

) for (whatever) reasons.

SoS, while I understand your point from your point of view, I disagree.

What the player of Quar'Agh will do as IC'ly Quar'Agh is served the repercussions (if any?) for his actions will determine much in regards to how the player is perceived OOC'ly. It's up to the player to determine if they want to be seen as a RP'er who will give and take, or one who will simply take. Let's let the RP unfold and see what happens!

Don't assume!

Much as the interaction between Illithera and Frey as of late... it's up to both of us OOC'ly to truly "play it even", because we both know Illy could just "disappear" (by you not playing her or retiring her) and then you've "Won", as in the player.. if that's what's so important to you.

Now, we both know thats not the case for us Sound - that we will both RP IG / IC'ly as our characters would and not try to "Win" from on OOC perspective... and this - IMHO - has greatly enhanced the feel of our little RP.

IMHO it's entirely within character for Quar'agh to post this, the way he did.

Regards,

A lot of plots originate from players. But they're usually part of a long term process, and rarely involve more than a dozen characters (in the planning). The end result can have major impact, however.

I've never been a fan of those secret organization who like to gloat in "If you don't know about it, then that means we've succeed in our task."

If I don't know about, how the hell is it then suppose to enrich my role playing experience on Amia?

No... my ignorance, in that case, only enriches -your- role playing experience, if anything.

The Banites have been built up the way it is now, with all of that in mind. I tried to figure out the most effective way of creating server-wide RP which would generate and progress RP for as many as possible.

Regardless of what you think of the Banites, or what you think of some of those who play Banites, it's hard to argue against the Banites productiveness in terms of RP contribution or generation.

And it's based off of exposure. Being exposed, rather. We are seen, we are heard, we take part, we appear and we stir things up by force.

Not everyone can do that. But I would reckon that there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of characters who in one way or another have been effected, taken part in and progressed with RP that the Banites have originally generated.

And that goes both ways, as well. Exposure means that so many others will try to have an impact on the Banites as well, which then leads to the Banites retaliating with an impact of their own, and so forth.

Could secret organizations be accountable for equal, constant server-wide player indulgement?

Honestly discussing the NEGATIVES of spy rp is tacky and in bad taste.

It just sounds like hot air cause u couldn't keep your own secret.

Spies should risk perma? Then how about faction leaders? Or everyone else? See how that arguement fails due to prejudice?

With the exception of death, we want some realism.....

Oh, and guess what? In the world there are snitches and bitches, spies and lies.

Deal with it. But jumping on here complaining about something you yourself could have averted, is not going to change anything.

Asking for anything to be done about might as well just be godgaming.

Don't like spies? Play someone who's paranoid enough not to trust anyone.

PS: I like the Banites irl. I like frey irl. And i actually hate snitches irl. But I am Ian John Patron, not Quar'Agh. AND, Quar'agh in not me, so please stop taking anything i do OOC. Even the dms who know Quar'agh, knows he a MAJOR arse. It's personality, not to be confused with my own

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Honestly discussing the NEGATIVES of spy rp is tacky and in bad taste.

It just sounds like hot air cause u couldn't keep your own secret.

Spies should risk perma? Then how about faction leaders? Or everyone else? See how that arguement fails due to prejudice?

With the exception of death, we want some realism.....

Oh, and guess what? In the world there are snitches and bitches, spies and lies.

Deal with it. But jumping on here complaining about something you yourself could have averted, is not going to change anything.

Asking for anything to be done about might as well just be godgaming.

Don't like spies? Play someone who's paranoid enough not to trust anyone.

Geld, please, stop with this type of negativity. I'm sending the rest of what I was going to say in a PM, because I'm not going to allow this positive discussion to be taken into a headspin because of your negativity.

And Geld - how could this be averted? Oh, I see.. if YOU, the player, got what you felt you wanted.

Right?

*shakes head*

That's the problem with not being able to look past yourself, and consider others.

Regards,

Hi Frey

I agree, but I've been trying to get my head around what's good and what's just being an ass. I'm open minded about these things, hence the query in the first place. There's lots of grey areas on this matter.

Hi Mago

There's one or two groups, who do have some major impacts on the server I'd say. Usually, its done through third parties however. For instance, if the Head of the Triadic Knights, happens to be a member of Secret Group X and he directs Triadic Knights to act in a certain way, all you ever see, is the Triadic Knights doing the action, not secret group X who instigated the action in their secret meetings.

If secret group Y, moves secret group W to get say the Kellies into a trap, all you see, is the Kellies fighting known group A. It affects a whole lot of people, but you don't know the half of it I guess, nor does everyone know the full truth but everyone's involved. Does that make any sense?

Mr Mago wrote:

Like... killing your loved ones? Who can be raised just as easily.

Or burning down a forest? Which will re-grow.

Or... I'm out of ideas, actually.

*snip*

We're OOC friends. We remain IC friends.

Harming them. Making them fearful. Terrorizing them in ways that are beyond normal just bloody breaking of bones. Breaking them.

Admittedly, this requires the OOC allowing of these things to affect PC's.

But this is much in the same vain as what Gers said:

Gers wrote:

if someone won't accept *any* IC consequences beyond just being killed and raised 5 minutes later for their character's behavior and actions, well.... those are the sorts of people I avoid RPing with in the first place, if I can.

If I know they won't get anything out of it, I don't waste either of our time. In the past I have done whatever my character was simply inclined to do with the kill/sacrifice/etc, in as direct and short means as possible in the cases where it is clear the other player can't be arsed, then dispose of the remains be recoverable in an IC way due to the rules of the server.

I typically will converse OOCly with the player immediately post death/capture and see what if anything they are up to, or for, and it gives me a good idea to what depth to go to with this type of rp.

Not everyone is comfortable with things on an OOC level, and taking things into account such as the other player's willingness for involvement early on saves you both trouble later.

Not everyone has the same idea of what's fun to RP.

I half hated, half enjoyed the Sharrans being outed. Gave me something to do. Bad luck would have it that my time to play was horrible back then, and has only gotten worse (to now non existant) since.

I still don't know how Eary got us, but he did, and now I just full on love it. When I do have time to put some actual activity back into the game, whenever that may be, I'm betting I'll have a bunch of fun waiting.

You have no right to call anyone spoiled, Xeno.

You, who the dms always seem to approve every plan u make.

I never get a single plan approved...not one, so i am not spoiled. Most of the DMs hate me anyways.

You got some nerve.

Frustrared? yeah. Spoiled? Hardly.

The dms told to work with what i got, and that is not much. Since i never get approval for anything i do not ask.

Since i can't be approved for anything that leaves me/with two still workable plans

1. Give my ideas to someone else since anyone who is not me has better chances.

2. Stop others plans.

Please, the only player approved to be a lich, who has raised tarkuul, destroyed nesek, among other dm approved events, has the nerve to call ME spoiled when i ruin one of his plans. Ridiculous.

He's the third lich (Sinqnew and Isendur were liches before him), and there's been a dracolich as well.

Frey was part of a group of individuals who raised Tarkuul.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Let's keep it friendly, so the DMs don't need to lock this thread.

And Geld,
Just because the DMs don't appove som of your plans doesn't mean they dislike you. Mago, Frey, Jud, *everyone* has had things where the dm team just goes "Yeah, no."

It's frustrating, but it just means there is likely a conflict you as a player aren't privy to that they are, or previous happenings you don't know of make it impossible.

Like the Banites going to one city was ok, appoved by DMs, then kiboshed by Disco, for reasons we were told of later, but *none* of us, DMs included, knew at the time. And it's not hat Disco doesn't like us, just that things from years ago made our plan now impossible.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

No. Lock this topic now please. I am f u c k i n g SICK AND TIRED of people judging players for their characters actions....sick of it already!

Xeno, Quar asked Frey if he would rather have Quar as an ally or enemy. YOU chose the latter, then called Quar a bunch of names.

So expect everything that comes along with it up to and including: fibding and thwarting ANY and every plan u devise, seeing you dead, and yes spying on and then ratting out your plan. DEAL WITH IT IC! But do not think for one second i will tolerate another disrespectful speculation from you or anyone else, when they no NOTHING about me.

Mr Mago wrote:

Uhm. When exactly were the Zhents outed recently?

I can PM you the exact date if you are interested

Glad I don't play in factions that "need" to be secretive. The stumps don't give a damn and the Kellies are proud if they're recognized out there. Much easier that way!

Sorry, to all the players involved in the "examples" I gave. That's not the thing to focus on. They were just an aside to illustrate and I admit, maybe they're not the world's greatest examples. But please don't focus on those events and keep it civil and keep it to the principle of the thing.

I'm getting a lot out of this (in particular I'm interested in Mago's points) and I don't want the thread locked from in-fighting between players.

soundofastream wrote:

I don't know of too many secretive groups, who've never yet had a spy in them...so then, nearly ALL secretive groups fail your litmus test Gravemaskin.

Well the point of such groups, is to not even be known.

If you haven't heard of them having a spy, it's likely because you haven't heard of them. :wink:

It all comes down to the player.

If their character "outs" your faction and they don't get caught, then more power to them,.

But...
If their chareacter -does- get caught, especially by a particularly nasty faction that is likely to disembowel their body in quite horrific non-restorable ways, then really, if the player is good, they will accept the true IC consequences and die (most likely), and not play the technicallity card of "there's no forced perma-death coz I don't want to, so haha, I screwed your faction over with no real price to pay and life goes on regardless"

It pretty much lies with player ethics, morals, and responsibility.

Herra Tutteri wrote:

Glad I don't play in factions that "need" to be secretive. The stumps don't give a damn and the Kellies are proud if they're recognized out there. Much easier that way!

When I played in the Silent Blades, back when Ultrinnan was super tight security wise, with lots of little wyrmlings everywhere, where the chances of ever getting into Ultrinnan and stay alive, where helmets were banned and the like, we actually not only infiltrated it, we set up our HQ within it.

The Silent Blades were relatively secretive, the RP was just awesome and the High Risk venture we were operating under their very nose, was just the best RP I had in a long while. Every move you make, everything you do is just pure risky and the VDVM were sniffing us out constantly, but they concentrated on Underport to try and find us and failed (because we were IN Ultrinnan).

I do agree, non-secretive guilds are also just as much fun, but the thrill of getting in, getting out and pulling something off, is what Rogue rp is all about. Without that sort of RP, Rogues would just be another 2nd rate fighter. Rogues purpose in life is to get what others don't want them to get. That's like 1 out of the four main class types and if Amia didn't cater for it, you bet those who like to play rogues, would go elsewhere.

Last edited by Yurell on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 11:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

If their chareacter -does- get caught, especially by a particularly nasty faction that is likely to disembowel their body in quite horrific non-restorable ways, then really, if the player is good, they will accept the true IC consequences and die (most likely), and not play the technicallity card of "there's no forced perma-death coz I don't want to, so haha, I screwed your faction over with no real price to pay and life goes on regardless"

It pretty much lies with player ethics, morals, and responsibility.

It's when they do pull the latter that people get really upset. There are nice ways to go about it that increase the RP and make it fun for everyone, and then there are approaches that make you an arsehat (such as announcing to the group that you're a spy, and telling them that there's absolutely nothing they can do about it - you can't keep them imprisoned by the rules, and if they die they'll just come back later).

Edit: I'm not supporting forced permadeath as an approach, but I'm opposing an attitude of 'there's no consequence to me'.

That does not work O rag. That woukd be like saying, "well if you join that faction and you ARE caught, then u should perma urself."

How about this: "Rats can snitch and get away with it anways, regardless of being killed tortured and/or maimed, just like everyone else."

soundofastream wrote:

When I played in the Silent Blades, back when Ultrinnan was super tight security wise, with lots of little wyrmlings everywhere, where the chances of ever getting into Ultrinnan and stay alive, where helmets were banned and the like, we actually not only infiltrated it, we set up our HQ within it.

The Silent Blades were relatively secretive, the RP was just awesome and the High Risk venture we were operating under their very nose, was just the best RP I had in a long while. Every move you make, everything you do is just pure risky and the VDVM were sniffing us out constantly, but they concentrated on Underport to try and find us and failed (because we were IN Ultrinnan).

I do agree, non-secretive guilds are also just as much fun, but the thrill of getting in, getting out and pulling something off, is what Rogue rp is all about. Without that sort of RP, Rogues would just be another 2nd rate fighter. Rogues purpose in life is to get what others don't want them to get. That's like 1 out of the four main class types and if Amia didn't cater for it, you bet those who like to play rogues, would go elsewhere.

Then you've got to learn to cheat better... At least that's the only solution I can make up. Pretend to be a whole different faction and publish taht info?

Geld Yaztran wrote:

That does not work O rag. That woukd be like saying, "well if you join that faction and you ARE caught, then u should perma urself."

How about this: "Rats can snitch and get away with it anways, regardless of being killed tortured and/or maimed, just like everyone else."

Both ways work; But one of the options, i perceive as less glorious.

The easy out; is frankly, a stab in the back for those who have fought long and hard to advance a plot.

Herra Tutteri wrote:

Then you've got to learn to cheat better... At least that's the only solution I can make up. Pretend to be a whole different faction and publish taht info?

Last edited by Xenos on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 11:32 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I think the point SoS might have been going for at the start, but lost it in the mess, was along the lines of.. You make a char, say, an assassin, make a group of assassins, thats their thing, its the RP, its all that char has.. Then someone says "I dont want to be an assassin anymore, i want to be a paladin, oh and guess what fellow paladins!" While that is a bit of an extream example, it could just as easily be someone that joins, learns whos in it, then puts up a post about it.

Basicly, there is no risk to the spy, compared to the considerable damage he can do.. sure, he cant perma kill the faction leader or players or anything, but he can ruin their chars, now your secertive assassin group is ruined, and the people that wanted to play secertive assassin chars might as well be perma dead.

Now sure, if there was considerable RP going into it, like.. Eary and his 2 years, then thats a bit different, but if someone just walks in, turns on the light and yells "Lookie here, roachs!" then walks out.. it kinda leaves the people involved shit out of luck. I suppose Mago's option of have it out in the open'ish works, while keeping the assassin group to a close to your chest kinda game, only friends you have RPed with for a few months are invited kinda thing..

Edit: What about making something of a waver as a requirment for a faction? "I join this faction for life, and should i ever seek to remove my char from said faction i am willing to face the consaquences, up to and inculeding Permadeath." If people dont want the possablity to perma kill their char, then they best not join and try to spy, though they would still be welcome to spy without joining. Hmm.. i like that idea, fixes everyones proablem, no?

Mr Mago wrote:

Herra Tutteri wrote:

Then you've got to learn to cheat better... At least that's the only solution I can make up. Pretend to be a whole different faction and publish taht info?

Oh be quiet you!

With every word you utter, every action you take, every insult you sling and every member you allow in your faction, you run the risk of being outed, attacked, or killed, simple as that.

Of course you could form a faction of players made up of friends, while alienating others.

Ultrinnan did it and look how well that went!

Xenos wrote:

Edit: What about making something of a waver as a requirment for a faction? "I join this faction for life, and should i ever seek to remove my char from said faction i am willing to face the consaquences, up to and inculeding Permadeath." If people dont want the possablity to perma kill their char, then they best not join and try to spy, though they would still be welcome to spy without joining. Hmm.. i like that idea, fixes everyones proablem, no?

A certain faction had already done that.

Dwagin wrote:

Xenos wrote:

Edit: What about making something of a waver as a requirment for a faction? "I join this faction for life, and should i ever seek to remove my char from said faction i am willing to face the consaquences, up to and inculeding Permadeath." If people dont want the possablity to perma kill their char, then they best not join and try to spy, though they would still be welcome to spy without joining. Hmm.. i like that idea, fixes everyones proablem, no?

A certain faction had already done that.

That's great ... unless someone goes "Bugger that". Then there's absolutely nothing that can be done.

There are secret organisations on Amia?:shock:

Darn,...

*looks around curiously*

Well, Yurell, you would need to get the DMs to approve the agreement and enforce it should the need arise. Mind that noone is forced to do that.. if they want to be part of said secert group, they can agree to said secert groups requirments, as a faction leader you dont have to let everyone that asks in, if someone wants in, but dosnt agree to that, then simply dont let them in.

Xenos wrote:

Well, Yurell, you would need to get the DMs to approve the agreement and enforce it should the need arise.

I wasn't under the impression that DMs could force permadeath like that. I remember a thread about DMs wanting to be able to force permadeath in their own events, and I recall it got quite long.

You are right Yurell, but in that instance the dms were suggesting that THEY would choose the people who died.

With the contract in place the players themselves would be deciding whether or not they get permad, by agreeing/not agreeing to the contract.

An excellent idea.

Furthermore, the dms would not be enforcing perma, just holding the player to his/her own word.

Xenos wrote:

Basicly, there is no risk to the spy, compared to the considerable damage he can do.. sure, he cant perma kill the faction leader or players or anything, but he can ruin their chars, now your secertive assassin group is ruined, and the people that wanted to play secertive assassin chars might as well be perma dead.

I agree with this guy.

I think its where Soundsofastream was originally coming from. Sound's OP didn't come across to me as whining, rather inviting us to discuss the purposes of making these IC decisions from an OOC-fun point of view.

I think there is a place for secretive/spy RP on the server (even though its not for me), but on the whole, outing a secretive faction publically seems like the RP equivalent of kicking down an awesome giant sandcastle that a whole bunch of people worked on for many many hours, just because you can.

If there's more to it than 'just because I can' or 'revenge', then its ok in my book.

But the Sharran set of events was very cool, dramatic and memorable and it seems like there was a good amount of RP leading up to it from what Ron said.

Something like that would require, im guessing, Nehky to approve on as Head DM. Mind that it would still require RP to warrent the death of the char, so they could still join, spy, and tell the world, and maybe get away with it! But if their captured, they can be killed and held to the agreement. Though im guessing if you had a faction with something like this in place, it wouldnt come up as an issue, becouse people wouldnt change their mind on a whim and spill the beans.

Have to say... this sounds like a bit of a double standered. Why should spy or indeed secrative factions RP require a permadeath clause. The server is already cliquey enough without another tier system.

On the subject of 'good' spy RP another real test is how people adapt. If someone outs your plan, turn it into a distraction for another plot or something. If you just sit on your hands and say 'it's all over people' then the secretive faction needed more depth. Though I believe Mago made that point already.

I personally had huge ammounts of fun with spy RP... mainly because once you tell someone one thing that is reliable and true they are quite likly to believe the next thing you tell them. For a while anyway... then the web gets to complex and blows up in your face.

Point being, if you can't take being a failed and consequently stupid looking spy then you are perhaps playing to win; not to RP winning.

Revenge IS a very valid reason.

Picture the sandcastle scene. The builders throw sand in your eyes, and insult you before they exclude you, yet threatening with death if you leave. Then they leave you and the castle alone to get a judge to rate their castle.

Would you knock it down?

Well I would....and I did. And I thoroughly enjoyed it.

They don't /require/ a permadeath clause, they've just chosen to institute one.

Well, for one thing, I OOCly or ICly didn't even know the Zhents existed until this topic was made.

As for spies they should just face the repercussions of their actions. If it were me I wouldn't mind if they managed to catch my character and see to it that there's no possible way they could ever be raised again.

I think this is one of those situations that involve huge gain = huge loss. Of course, they'd still have to catch you though.

soundofastream wrote:

the Head of the Triadic Knights, happens to be a member of Secret Group X and he directs Triadic Knights to act in a certain way, all you ever see, is the Triadic Knights doing the action, not secret group X who instigated the action in their secret meetings.

Aww...I should hereby declare my eternal love I guess. She can see the truth!
Yaston is a blackguard of..........!

SHAR!

Geld, you have been given warning time and again about throwing your fits on the forums. IT is unfortunate that you chose this topic to again act the way yo have for months that have lead to several of your server bannings.

This topic is over and Geld, I hope your stay on the forums this time has been a fruitful one. We will see you when/if your ban is lifted.

Outing secretive groups

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