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I had a fast question about languages.

So the rule for the server is the D&D rule. You know comon, your race if one applies, and any additional languages equal to your int mod. Some languages you can't speak because the race provides the means (the voice box or lack of one) needed to make the sounds.

Are there any rules that say you can't learn further languages through rp and effort?

IIRC theres not any rule at all concerning in the sense language tags are not supported at all and everyone's free to just read your emotes if they like. There was some talk about the INT mod. to be implemented but I don't think anything moved in that direction. Common sense applies I guess.

Last edited by Gers on Tue, Feb 02 2010, 21:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Generally, we go by also having 1 additional language per point of INT modifer, and 5 points of Lore. Thus, a level 20 bard with 14 INT and 10 base lore could know 1(base) + 1(racial/regional) + 2 (1 per int mod) + 2 (10 base lore points) +4 (+20 lore bonus from bard levels). I always consider common and undercommon free (if you're a UD race), as well.

Mind that we prefer for people to have a good reason to know the languages they do. For example, Joe the Ex-Cormyrian Farmer turned Adventurer really wouldn't have a good reason to be fluent in drow and abyssal, would he?

Ok, very cool. I like that. Thanks very much!

Does that mean PCs get Regionals, as well?

Gers wrote:

Generally, we go by also having 1 additional language per point of INT modifer, and 5 points of Lore. Thus, a level 20 bard with 14 INT and 10 base lore could know 1(base) + 1(racial/regional) + 2 (1 per int mod) + 2 (10 base lore points) +4 (+20 lore bonus from bard levels). I always consider common and undercommon free (if you're a UD race), as well.

Mind that we prefer for people to have a good reason to know the languages they do. For example, Joe the Ex-Cormyrian Farmer turned Adventurer really wouldn't have a good reason to be fluent in drow and abyssal, would he?

Where'd the lore bit come from? The standard has always been Common/Undercommon/Drow/Elven/etc (depending on Race) +1/int mod.

I'm pretty sure it's in one of the various discussions the DMs have had on the subject over the past years, Tormak. I distinctly remember us talking about that. I'll try and find a link to the topic.

I've always been told, like what Gers just stated, that it was common and the native language of whatever your race is was free, you get extras depending on your intelligence, and for every five points of lore (if you have it). I think I even discussed that with Nekh at one point way back when I first made Im'kiira.

It was a topic three years ago and the widget never went in and no work was done, ergo I assumed it was ditched in favor of the longer standing int mod only.

The lore bit is kinda needed, though. The arguement always comes up that just because you're not really smart doesn't mean you can't pick up multiple languages(growing up in multi-cultural fams an example). IMO at least.

And with classes like bard who get lore just from leveling, makes sense that they could just "pick up" a spare language along the way, without having to be an Einstein just because they already know 3 languages.

Anyway, as I've always seen it, Lore represents general knowledge(in NWN at least since not split between Arcana and Religion like in PnP). Languages are by their nature just knowledge of words and syntax. And knowledge is something you can gain regardless of being a smarty(though it really helps, thus Lore being an Int based skill).

Base INT Mod? INT mod at creation or INT mod at level 30 with all the buffs?

Specify please.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Base INT Mod? INT mod at creation or INT mod at level 30 with all the buffs?

Specify please.

Your current base(regardless of level), excluding buffs.

You don't learn more languages just be getting smarter(or by getting smarter alone). Hence, lore.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The lore bit is kinda needed, though. The arguement always comes up that just because you're not really smart doesn't mean you can't pick up multiple languages(growing up in multi-cultural fams an example). IMO at least.

And with classes like bard who get lore just from leveling, makes sense that they could just "pick up" a spare language along the way, without having to be an Einstein just because they already know 3 languages.

Anyway, as I've always seen it, Lore represents general knowledge(in NWN at least since not split between Arcana and Religion like in PnP). Languages are by their nature just knowledge of words and syntax. And knowledge is something you can gain regardless of being a smarty(though it really helps, thus Lore being an Int based skill).

Knowledge isn't just Arcana and Religion in PnP. There's knowledge skills for... basically everything in existence.

Re: int: Current INt excluding buffs.

They have to make IC sense, as well, yeah? Like a pally knowing thieves handsign/cant thing or drow handsign is pretty much a no-no without a really good IC reason (i.e. Was captured by drow/theives group and held hostage for a month or two is not a good reason). Half-devils knowing celestial or half-celestials knowing abysmal.... so on and so forth. Right?

Actually, I think it's pretty common for angels and fiends to know the language of their opposites (true ones, anyway). But beyond that, yeah, common sense should rule the day. I can't stand it when some surface race PC starts saying they know drow, and when asked how they know it, "oh, I grew up in a monastery/village/city/etc. where everyone knew it."

Yeah, right. Sorry, that'll work for maybe goblinoid or orc, if it's in an area known for goblin troubles or orcish problems. Not drow, or abyssal, or celestial, or other exotic tongues.

ainjyll wrote:

They have to make IC sense, as well, yeah? Like a pally knowing thieves handsign/cant thing or drow handsign is pretty much a no-no without a really good IC reason (i.e. Was captured by drow/theives group and held hostage for a month or two is not a good reason). Half-devils knowing celestial or half-celestials knowing abysmal.... so on and so forth. Right?

Actually, it's not that taboo to know your enemy's language. Plenty of (intelligent)devils can speak Celestial. And vice versa. They have to at least be able to tell each other how wrong the other is.

And a paladin knowing cant isn't too far-fetched. Maybe he's a reformed theif himself who saw the light. Or maybe he learned it and uses it to work the underground for information, eventually leading him to the big fish? Police keep up with criminal and narcotics lingo for that very reason. Knowledge is power.

Edit: Darnit, Gers beat me to it. To echo him tho, yes, common sense wins the day.

Couldn't one just leave a few skill points unspent for Speak Language?

There's no proof you didn't spend skill points though. Even leto doesn't show it.

Last edited by Yurell on Wed, Feb 03 2010, 4:23 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Can you see how many skill points someone did spend? I know it wouldn't be too much effort for me to add into my bio how man skill points I should have (or send toa DM asking in a tell).

Edit: Or denote another ability (CC for anyone but bard) to represent speak language?

What about job points in Linguist

RP skills should have been added in the hak ;-;

Dwagin wrote:

What about job points in Linguist

RP skills should have been added in the hak ;-;

Yes, because we all know how everyone is just dieing to dump "Use Rope". :roll:

In seriousness, I think we already have plenty of skills. DM's can always make the call themselves based off of other base stats and skills you have.

I would say Int Bonus + 1 Language Per Linguist Level is fair enough.

It doesn't make sense to tie it entirely to the intelligence score like that IMO. All that that does is mean wizards speak every language and people who should know more, don't.

It is what it is.

Want more languages?

Get more int.

Plenty of fun RP to be had with not knowing everything that is said.

Dwagin wrote:

It is what it is.

Want more languages?

Get more int.

Plenty of fun RP to be had with not knowing everything that is said.

AFAIK there was no big, enforced decision that the maximum known languages is one's intelligence modifier.

TormakSaber wrote:

The standard has always been Common/Undercommon/Drow/Elven/etc (depending on Race) +1/int mod.

And as far as I know that's never been enforced ... you can RP learning a language without having to spend 8 levels or 2 epic feats on it.

As for my characters, they speak the languages that makes sense. My 14 int chultan-descended Ranger out of Athkatla ofcourse knows common and regional for Amn, as well as the basics of one chult dialect. In addition he has picked up another language on the way to reflect the life he had before he came to Amia. All theese languages make sense for that character. This ofcourse means that he does not know undecommon, draconic, abyssal, celestical or any other language of entities he has never had anything, or very little to do with.

Common sense applies to languages as well, which also means that while a 30 int wizard may know alot of languages, he won't speak the majority of them fluently, or even well enough to be fully understood. Also, your command of languages detoriate if you do not speak them for a long time, thus knowing 7+ languages means that you have no chance to keep up your command well enough of all of them. My RL exampel is myself: as a six year old, I could speak german fluently, but after 8 years of not speaking to anyone in german, my command of that language has detoriated immensly, even if i know the basics.

Edit: at the age of 14 we started having german in school again. That is now 8 years ago. In other words: No, I'm not 14 -.-

Cant and Drow Sign language. Learnable via the modifier and skill points? Or limited specfically to race and class?

Limited to race and class I would say, but i am no DM. The question is why would a non thief or non drow know theese languages? I am pretty sure that drow never teach hand sign to anyone who are not drow, same with thieves, druids, dwarves and snow elves.

I believe only elves can learn drow handsign due to the agility... though maybe a char with hig dex could too, dunno. In one of the Drizzt books he laments how he was unable to teach Cati Bree as she could not form the signs with her human hands but was considering teaching an elf he was traveling with at that time.

For druidic and thieves can, you cant say that these languages would not be taught by drow/druids/thieves as nothing prevents a druid char from teaching the language to a non druid. (likely followed by a fall, but still). I would think that if you can find someone willing to teach a given language, you can learn it unless the language itself is unspeakable due to some technicality (requiring elf movements, or being divinely granted like tongue of sun and moon etc).

Tongue of the Sun and the Moon isn't divinely granted.

Its an inherent Monk Ability gained at level 17 and only a Monk Ability from what i've been informed that allows a Monk to speak to any living creature.

And i wouldn't put entirely to much stock in the Novels either.

Drow Sign is a sign-language type tongue which uses hand motions and expressions. It is, as the name suggests, used mainly by the Drow elves. Humans and other goodly races often confuse these motions as spell conjurations as noted in the novel Sojourn. It is notoriously difficult for non-elves to master as they often lack the manual dexterity and slenderness of an elf's hands, even the incredibly dextrous Artemis Entreri had difficulty getting his hand to enunciate the movements properly and lacks the finesse of a Drow even years after learning the language.

Out of FR Wiki. You still can't discount that some Drow use bastardized forms of this language, for example something that will only be understood within a single noble house, academy or society.

Gers wrote:

I can't stand it when some surface race PC starts saying they know drow.

What do surface drow speak?

Most of them probably speak common. And we've arrived at my pet peeve, cuddly Drow who say they were part of Lolthite society. Hurrg.

xordae wrote:

Most of them probably speak common. And we've arrived at my pet peeve, cuddly Drow who say they were part of Lolthite society. Hurrg.

But they can speak drow. And can teach others.

Sure, some will. But my preconception says that 4 out of 5 don't, because they don't act or appear like they've been through the meat grinder that is their society. I'm not sure if people even think about that a great deal, that you can't speak Drow without having been there and learned it. They just assume "I'm a Drow, I speak it". And when a Drow is perfectly spotless, caring and sweet and said she came from the UD, then I wouldn't buy it as a player. And a lot of surface Drow fall under that category.

I remember going all funny and saying with my non-common speaking duergar everything in undercommon (to himself) what my other current party member said. it was hilarious! cheers to you if you remember Bruthon, if you are still out here reading these posts! *waves*

I've always followed the whole standard + 1 per int mod thing for my chars, and had languages they know outside the "standard" area, be tought to them by other PCs.

My question is this though; Do anyone really care?

I thought this wasn't enforced at all, with the exception of it requiring 'some' good reason for them knowing it?

I could really care less how many languages someone speak, as long as they got some reason for knowing it (or not at all even, if they want). Still not going to help them learn something they shouldn't, if the people on the speaking end are smart enough.

All the int in the world can't help you break a made up language for a spesific group, or handsigns, codewords, etc etc. (This goes primarily for Drow handsigning versions, Theeves cant' versions and so on)

Is there a rule posted in the rules & lore section on this? And if there is, why not just refer to that and say "do that, not something else" ?

I think as far as anyone caring atm DMs prefer the carrot to the stick - if they feel something is ridiculous, they don't award DCs.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Gers wrote:

I can't stand it when some surface race PC starts saying they know drow.

What do surface drow speak?

Surface drow aren't a surface race... they're a UD race who more often than not, in Amia, ends up on the surface. Nevermind that whole thing with the sun, and all...

A drow's handsign is just as varied as a person's accent. Every city has a slightly different one and most academies and houses have their own special dialect that is only recognizable to people within those groups. As said, nobody, save for other drow should really know it. Another elf could learn it if they were put in the proper position and given enough time.

IG I've emoted something like, "*fingers flash through several complex motions*" and had someone try to tell me that they're dwarven fighter with their stubby little dwarven fingers could not only understand the drow handsign, but even flash a little back at my character. *sigh*

Oh, and for the record I wasn't speaking about pure celestials knowing abysmal. It was more like Aasimar's knowing abysmal or Tieflings knowing celestial... as a starting language, at least. If someone wants to put in the RP for learning a language, let them learn it. As long as it's not one hour of RL RP, *press fast forward for the IG clock* and.... I know the language!

This topic sounds much like the previous topic in this matter; http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41373 Also called " A tall order; promises kept".

It was a lively debate.

One of the things that were discussed was that it would restrict players from say; claiming their pc knew 20 Languages.

The correct formula, IIRC, is:

Common/Undercommon + Racial/Regional language + Class language (I think Druidic/Thieves' Cant is free) + 1 Regional/Class Bonus Language per natural Int modifier at character creation. This determines how many languages your PC can start the game with.

You can learn a new language by buying 1 rank in Speak Language. (Or Know Language, or whatever?) In practice, this means 2 points for anyone but Bard, because it's a cross-class skill for others. You don't technically learn new languages after creation according to your Int mod, you have to spend skill points.

That said, we enforce reasonableness and coolness on Amia (when we enforce language rules at all), not PnP rules.

You recall correctly, Iron.

Moonangel wrote:

I believe only elves can learn drow handsign due to the agility... though maybe a char with hig dex could too, dunno. In one of the Drizzt books he laments how he was unable to teach Cati Bree as she could not form the signs with her human hands but was considering teaching an elf he was traveling with at that time.

For druidic and thieves can, you cant say that these languages would not be taught by drow/druids/thieves as nothing prevents a druid char from teaching the language to a non druid. (likely followed by a fall, but still). I would think that if you can find someone willing to teach a given language, you can learn it unless the language itself is unspeakable due to some technicality (requiring elf movements, or being divinely granted like tongue of sun and moon etc).

Any druid caught teaching druidic to a non druid is going to get excommunicated. Period (as per Druid RP rules)

I have run into a few people who have metagamed my pally saying things under his breath in Mulhorandi. It would be a fairy rare language. Look around, very few mulans on amia, Mulan is highly segregated from the rest of the world besides trade adn they would speak common to faciliate this I beleive.

A mulan is a stuck up superiorist prick, and I assume that they wouldnt want to waste the time teaching the language to any of the lesser races.

Want to also steer this thread in the direction of read and write? Just because you can speak it doesnt mean you can write it? I assume Dwarfs use Runes, I know abyssal and all htat is written differently. Also Mulhorandi is written in cuniform.

This isnt to say the language cannot be translated to common lettering, i,e; Russian being written using the common alphabet instead of the Cyrillic one, etc.

Just thought it would be interesting to discuss that as well.

CatInBox wrote:

Moonangel wrote:

I believe only elves can learn drow handsign due to the agility... though maybe a char with hig dex could too, dunno. In one of the Drizzt books he laments how he was unable to teach Cati Bree as she could not form the signs with her human hands but was considering teaching an elf he was traveling with at that time.

For druidic and thieves can, you cant say that these languages would not be taught by drow/druids/thieves as nothing prevents a druid char from teaching the language to a non druid. (likely followed by a fall, but still). I would think that if you can find someone willing to teach a given language, you can learn it unless the language itself is unspeakable due to some technicality (requiring elf movements, or being divinely granted like tongue of sun and moon etc).

Any druid caught teaching druidic to a non druid is going to get excommunicated. Period (as per Druid RP rules)

A Druid teaching Druidic to a non-Druid falls. Excommunication is mortal business and would depend on RP. Although, if your fellow Druids find out about this, it's probably likely to happen.

Please, let this thread not become another thread of "let us bash all good drow RP because it is unrealistic".

Ladies and gents, we all are tired of knowing how you hate it. Speaking your hate every time you have an opportunity will not change anything.

Simply enough, this thread is talking about ability to learn languages and how the INT modifier and other abilities/skills are counted to increase the number of known languages. It is not a hook for you to swing on and start kicking all around, hoping to hit those players whose RP you dislike. You have personal issues with a player and how s/he RP, PM him/her.

Just remember that you cannot force anyone to RP the way you think is right and how the way they RP suck. Until there is such a rule saying that all people RPing good drow should stop RPing good drow because they have no idea at all of what it means to be drow...

...suck it up and live with it.

That being said, let us stay on topic and if you wish to further discuss with me about your hate for good/bad drow RP, my PM inbox is open.

And to stay on topic, good drow might be able to teach drow to other races the same way a metallic dragon might be able to teach draconic to other races. Good drow might also be able to teach drow handsign to a surfacer if they want, but the difficulty for that is too high to even bother and it would probably take months, maybe even years, who knows, until they could make progress. They would likely give up in the process.

As long as common sense is involved... and I am sorry but you, indeed, have to try putting some faith into your fellow players. If you are unable to do that, why not just learn not to get all worked up and outraged because some random player understood the super secret/super hard language you speak?

It is a game, have fun.

Disclaimer: No flame or flame bait intended with this post. Still, if you felt insulted or baited, my PM inbox is open.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

CatInBox wrote:

Moonangel wrote:

I believe only elves can learn drow handsign due to the agility... though maybe a char with hig dex could too, dunno. In one of the Drizzt books he laments how he was unable to teach Cati Bree as she could not form the signs with her human hands but was considering teaching an elf he was traveling with at that time.

For druidic and thieves can, you cant say that these languages would not be taught by drow/druids/thieves as nothing prevents a druid char from teaching the language to a non druid. (likely followed by a fall, but still). I would think that if you can find someone willing to teach a given language, you can learn it unless the language itself is unspeakable due to some technicality (requiring elf movements, or being divinely granted like tongue of sun and moon etc).

Any druid caught teaching druidic to a non druid is going to get excommunicated. Period (as per Druid RP rules)

A Druid teaching Druidic to a non-Druid falls. Excommunication is mortal business and would depend on RP. Although, if your fellow Druids find out about this, it's probably likely to happen.

Well, the language is Sylvan. Fey speak it too(it's the language of Nature). And I wouldn't put it as harsh as an auto-fall for just teaching it to a non-druid. What if the druid is teaching someone who's trying to become a druid, after all? It's not as cut and dried as that.

Anyway, AFAIK, teaching Sylvan isn't something a druid can fall from. They haven't violated nature in any way, nor gone against any nature deity's dogma (I dont recall any at least saying you couldn't teach it). It's just like Dwarves and Dwarven/Runic: They're just very reluctant to teach anyone who isn't of their kind. And if the rest of their kind were to find out and find that the person did it without good reason, then yes, they might be exiled, excommunicated, or otherwised punished. But Falling is left up to the gods, not social stigma.

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