AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Ive allways been faschinated about fallen paladins, even since reading about Lord Soth in Dragonlance in the 80s (Yes, im that old)...

Rules-wise, what happens if I change alignement from for example LG to LE/NE. I cant prgress as a pally, i get that, but do all abilities disappear? In the old PnP AD&D I played you became a fighter of the same level...

Same goes for cleric. What happens in Amia if I suddenly go praying at a Banite temple or something like that? Does a giant lightning bold strike me dead, does nothing happen or something in between?

RP-wise I have it all figured out me thinks...

Clerics/Paladins can fall, for various reasons. They are mechanically blocked from casting spells or receiving Divine Grace saves bonuses.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Clerics/Paladins can fall, for various reasons. They are mechanically blocked from casting spells or receiving Divine Grace saves bonuses.

So, basically you become an overpriced warrior/cleric with no spellcasting?

The paladins are subject to "fall" should they go against the paladin oaths etc, etc.

But I haven't seen, nor heard of any fallen clerics on Amia. Which there probably should be plenty of, seeing how many clerics there are who don't follow a god (eek!) and don't follow the oaths and dogma of their god, should they have one.

I would like to see many more fallen clerics. It's suppose to be a rather strict class to play, yet on Amia it's been overlooked in that aspect (IMO).

Lord of the Pit wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Clerics/Paladins can fall, for various reasons. They are mechanically blocked from casting spells or receiving Divine Grace saves bonuses.

So, basically you become an overpriced warrior/cleric with no spellcasting?

And with crummy AB progression, and no weapon spec.

Deity gets grumpy and takes the special toys away from the naughty paladin.

We got some fallen clerics, if I recall right. I suppose they don't really advertise being fallen, though.

*chuckles*

Bad Paladin! No more holy sword for you.
B-b-but!
Don't but me kiddo! I saw what you did back there.
It was self defense!
Tell that your grandfather.
I'm an aasimar! You are my grandfather!
...

Just had to imagine that dialogue, and yeah, lots of clercis who follow no God. I can understand that with non relegious classes, but clerics? That is like saying 'I'm a preacher but I don't follow any god nor do I got something to preach about'

With clerics, it's more like saying:

"My god grants me all my spells and awesome capabilities, but I have no god."

Maybe we should have the Week When All Divine Magic Was Severed from the Faithless and the False.

Unfortunately, it's a project of no small proportions to check each and every cleric we got for deities, and let's not even go into checking if they pray and do their clerical stuff as they should.

The good clerics get DC'd for their efforts whenever at least I notice it, though. Carrot is easier to manage than stick in this matter.

Once-a-reset forced prayer would be fun, but it does little to actually encourage RPing clerics, methinks.

I have a Blackguard character that I RP as a paladin (holy warrior?) of Lolth (closest thing considering the lack of many prestige classes in NWN) that fell from grace and managed to return to favor several RL months later. So, I know that DM's (or Kjetta, at least) don't mind slapping that lovely fallen item onto a paladin or BG. I would be interested to see some clerics fall from grace, however. I know that there are players out there that fail to follow some of the most basic dogmas of their character's faith. I would love to see some of them get slapped with the fallen item as well and lose all their spellcasting abilities for a little while.... would probably go miles in making the cleric/religious side of RP a little stronger on Amia.

I don't think that this is something that's lacking or absolutely must be done, but it would be pretty nifty if DM's started looking a little closer at characters with cleric levels and made sure they were being proper little walking advertisements for their faiths.

I drop clerics left and right. Though, it's important to remember that falling is handled by the gods, who are NPCs, and very different minded NPCs at that. Some might care about details, some might not. Some might even grant spells to clerics that think they worship some other god. Falling is not an OOC punishment for not RPing your cleric properly.

I'd be happy to see DMs dropping Fall onto clerics with no deity (as in RP-wise, not no deity in their diety field).

ainjyll wrote:

I have a Blackguard character that I RP as a paladin (holy warrior?) of Lolth

The Spiderguard comes to my mind. An elite unit of Drow fanatical loyal to Lolth or something like that.

One of my warriors, who went BG later on, was set into that position by the then Matron of his house. The house is long gone, I don't play him anymore either. So my memories are a bit cranky.

Yurell wrote:

I'd be happy to see DMs dropping Fall onto clerics with no deity (as in RP-wise, not no deity in their diety field).

Well, you could point us out to these characters when you see it. It's not something we can see at a glance, unless we happen to stumble into a situation where it's specifically brought up.

I guess only the DMs with a habit to check the hidden info, as well as the usual inventory, stat sheet and description, stumble upon clerics without deities outside situations where it comes up otherwise. But it's really a process of checking each and every character individually, which is the stuff we do when there's little else to do for one reason or another.

Disco could, of course, generate a list with a few clicks, but that still doesn't say anything about the clerics actually RPing having a deity. And it might give false positives (clerics who RP having a deity, but have none assigned mechanically).

So yeah, reporting and handling each one as they're discovered is the only realistic approach.

So I take it there are no clerics here that worship an ideal instead of a particular deity? Clerics of an order of law or chaos, good or evil instead of say Tyr or Cyric. I know this happens and is completely alright and the clerics get their spells from the ideal. They consider the ideals of these things much more important than any one religion. Now thats not to say that it isn't actually some deity sneaking them spells every day but the clerics still dont specifically worship any single deity. Fair and good in the PHB 3.5 but FR lore may be different, I dont know. Just asking so I get a better picture here and all angles of this discussion can be open for the masses.

PHB 3.5 Pg. 30 subtopic religion second paragraph says,

Quote:

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities, and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.

FR lore is a bit different.

So the ideal thing is a no-no? That's a shame, it seemed a fresh and good idea.

Personally, I think it's one of the lamest ideas of D&D history: you just believe something really hard, and you get the powers of gods? Right.

But yes, it's a no-no in Forgotten Realms. All divine power comes from gods, distinct divine personalities. This is not strictly limited to "deities", as powerful outsiders can also grant divine power: Archdukes of Hell and Demon Princes in particular. There are also hosts of spirits and demigods that are deities, even if they might not be listed in Faiths & Pantheons. But all divine power comes from beings, not ideals.

I kinda figured that, being as in FR you head straight to the wall upon death if you are an atheist. Religion is crazy huge in the realms, but I just wanted to make sure that rule was out. Stuff changes with every single setting and its kinda hard to keep up with all of it. But I personally think even the cleric orders that have no deities in other settings still get their spells from whatever deity their cannon actually comes closest to. I mean why would a deity have a domain or portfolio if they didnt actually have control of such thing. That's just me though...*shrugs*

Whatever you do, never change your god like slippers.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Whatever you do, never change your god like slippers.

Totally agree.....like in real life, most people have a religeon....would you give up your God for another every couple weeks because you want to? No you most likely wouldn't, just like....probably most of your characters wouldn't either, they'd be too afraid...especially since Gods in FR have a completly noticable effect and have been seen by people in the time of troubles...and healing magics and what not so there is a hundred percent proof they exist in a FR persons mindset.

Xiru wrote:

So the ideal thing is a no-no? That's a shame, it seemed a fresh and good idea.

Not really, its been around since 1st ed. Then you didnt even have spheres, it was basically only alignement that divided clerics.

I find the idea a bit too abstract and such, I think its just an easy way out for those who dont bother to invest more than a few clicks on the mouse into their characters...

Checking Cleric RP is as mentioned an impossible tast, if its supposed to be done overall. Also, one persons 'weak' RP is anothers shining moment, which my years of PnP RPG has taught me. We all have different ways of expressing RP.

What would be nice is to have some 'script' that forces you to choose a god with correct spheres (according to chosen at character generation). If you dont, your prayers will simply go unanswered (ie no spells). Also, you would need to pray at certain intervals too. :twisted:

Having no knowledge in building/scripting I have no idea of if its manageble or how much work it would require though...but its a nice thought..

Ok, ill be more specific when it comes to fallen clerics..

I dont mean a cleric who has 'simply' lost faith and turned his back on his god.

I mean someone who by action has been 'excommunicated' by his god and turn his back on his own accord, to turn to another deity. In this case, as Im talking about 'fallen' clerics, they might also have been 'seduced' by another deity and/or his agents.

For example you turn from LG Torm, to LE Cyric perhaps after some event that make you lose the faith in the goodness of your god. Instead you embrace the dogma of power through tyrrany as a way of life. Literature is full of 'good' characters who has turned to 'the dark side'. I think Lucifer would be the most famous example.... :wink:

Lord of the Pit wrote:

Ok, ill be more specific when it comes to fallen clerics..

I dont mean a cleric who has 'simply' lost faith and turned his back on his god.

I mean someone who by action has been 'excommunicated' by his god and turn his back on his own accord, to turn to another deity. In this case, as Im talking about 'fallen' clerics, they might also have been 'seduced' by another deity and/or his agents.

For example you turn from LG Torm, to LE Cyric perhaps after some event that make you lose the faith in the goodness of your god. Instead you embrace the dogma of power through tyrrany as a way of life. Literature is full of 'good' characters who has turned to 'the dark side'. I think Lucifer would be the most famous example.... :wink:

Cyric isn't LE, but that's no exactly important - if you've been seduced by another god, and they're willing to grant you divine powers, you still have divine powers as far as I'm aware, just a different source for them.
Bane is probably the one you're thinking of by the way.

As far as Lucifer goes, that's completely different - he wasn't lured by another god, but an ideal ... better not bring up a religious debate

In FR there is a being like Lucifer called Asmodeus. Read up on the Pact Primeval in the Tyrants of the Nine Hells (I thin the FR wiki has info about it, from what I glimpsed).

There's actually also a lesser devil called Lucifer, but I digress!

But ideally speaking: turning to another faith would make you lose access to your spells temporarily. You would have to seek out the church/agents of your new deity, perform some task or other initiation rite for them and get accepted by the deity. Then your cleric levels would return to normal. On Amia, this means that you get the Fall widget for a time, and need to RP towards conversion, maybe do some small quest for it if there's an opportunity. This, at least, is the ideal we try to uphold. We obviously can't control all the PCs changing their gods, especially since it may only be RPed and with no use of the scripted deity system. It's best to contact a DM when you want to convert, though, because it's a chance for great RP.

But dood, someone who's eager for the RP of converting doesn't need a DM to have his spells nicked. All he needs is not to use any spells until he feels he's comfortably settled with the new church. I guess he still needs the official attention and task and etc. But a lot of churches have high-ranking clerics as PCs.

Yeah, that's true. In fact, I'd rather not Fall someone I can trust to RP responsibly, because that way I don't have to be there to lift the Fall when it's the appropriate moment.

Is the DM that dropped The Fall tool in your inventory the only who will accompany your case and decide when it's time to remove it, or are other DMs made aware of it so they can accompany it?

Yurell wrote:

Cyric isn't LE, but that's no exactly important - if you've been seduced by another god, and they're willing to grant you divine powers, you still have divine powers as far as I'm aware, just a different source for them.
Bane is probably the one you're thinking of by the way.

Yes, Bane was the one, never liked that Cyric nonsense...all hail Bane and Bhaal... :twisted:

I think we see this in the same way regarding 'turning to the dark side'...

As far as Lucifer goes, that's completely different - he wasn't lured by another god, but an ideal ... better not bring up a religious debate

In FR there is a being like Lucifer called Asmodeus. Read up on the Pact Primeval in the Tyrants of the Nine Hells (I thin the FR wiki has info about it, from what I glimpsed).[/quote]

Regarding Lucifer I was talking about 'falling' in the general sense, not in the 'seduced sense'. Ah, Asmodeus from my old MM1...Yes, I know of him. I dont really have new D&D stuff, as if we ever break out D&D its our old 2nd ed characters that get dusted off... But Ill check the Wiki..thanks.

IronAngel wrote:

There's actually also a lesser devil called Lucifer, but I digress!

If that was the Lucifer meant, I apologise.

Yurell wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

There's actually also a lesser devil called Lucifer, but I digress!

If that was the Lucifer meant, I apologise.

No, I meant the biggest baddest guy below! :twisted:

Well, in the 'Falling' sense, all tat Lucifer did in Christian Mythology is strive to better himself and equal God. Since we are clearly supposed to take God's side, we are meant to condemn Lucifer for this. After that, well, everything went down hill because the advantage of being a God is that you don't need Deus ex Machina to pull your arse off the line.

Here at least
We shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

Yurell wrote:

Well, in the 'Falling' sense, all tat Lucifer did in Christian Mythology is strive to better himself and equal God.

But what Satan did to earn his fall from grace was defy God, not the fact that he wanted to better himself. He went against direct orders from God. Besides, he isn't really God's direct enemy, he's the enemy of humans. He's only God's enemy because God is on our side.

Fear the Athar! *Flees*

Anyway, pretty sure you can't do what they do in FR.

I've always wondered wether people have ever roleplayed worshipping an aspect of a god like Cyric thinking he was standing for something completely innocent like... Torm? Lathander? ~ Or would Beshaba be more appropriate, being the god of trickery and all.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Well, in the 'Falling' sense, all tat Lucifer did in Christian Mythology is strive to better himself and equal God.

But what Satan did to earn his fall from grace was defy God, not the fact that he wanted to better himself. He went against direct orders from God. Besides, he isn't really God's direct enemy, he's the enemy of humans. He's only God's enemy because God is on our side.

AFAIK Satan =/= Lucifer

BlackDahlya wrote:

Is the DM that dropped The Fall tool in your inventory the only who will accompany your case and decide when it's time to remove it, or are other DMs made aware of it so they can accompany it?

I always find the "Ao is my God" excuse to be good for a laugh.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I always find the "Ao is my God" excuse to be good for a laugh.

AFAIK Ao does not grant spell,s and his followers go to the Wall on death.

Yurell wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Well, in the 'Falling' sense, all tat Lucifer did in Christian Mythology is strive to better himself and equal God.

But what Satan did to earn his fall from grace was defy God, not the fact that he wanted to better himself. He went against direct orders from God. Besides, he isn't really God's direct enemy, he's the enemy of humans. He's only God's enemy because God is on our side.

AFAIK Satan =/= Lucifer

Satan is Lucifer, yes. I was stating why, in the bible, Satan falls. It's not because he tries to better himself.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Well, in the 'Falling' sense, all tat Lucifer did in Christian Mythology is strive to better himself and equal God.

But what Satan did to earn his fall from grace was defy God, not the fact that he wanted to better himself. He went against direct orders from God. Besides, he isn't really God's direct enemy, he's the enemy of humans. He's only God's enemy because God is on our side.

AFAIK Satan =/= Lucifer

Satan is Lucifer, yes. I was stating why, in the bible, Satan falls. It's not because he tries to better himself.

=/= means 'not equal' ... Satan and Lucifer are different AFAIK.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Wed, Aug 05 2009, 9:43 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Yurell wrote:

=/= means 'not equal' ... Satan and Lucifer are different AFAIK.

In the bible, Lucifer is used as Satans name before he falls.

So yes, they are the same.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Yurell wrote:

=/= means 'not equal' ... Satan and Lucifer are different AFAIK.

In the bible, Lucifer is Satans name before he falls.

So yes, they are the same.

Regards,

Local religious nutcase confirms.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Wed, Aug 05 2009, 9:45 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Actually, I'm not religious.

I don't believe in any god, or an afterlife, and view peeps that do as quite silly and afraid.

Your /fail is noted, however, in regards to your consistant and rather indicative attempts to poke fun at me.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Yurell wrote:

=/= means 'not equal' ... Satan and Lucifer are different AFAIK.

In the bible, Lucifer is Satans name before he falls.

So yes, they are the same.

Regards,

Can you point out a passage? I was under the impression that Satan was Satanail (sp?) before he fell.
At any rate, I've contacted someone who does Bible studies at uni and he might decide to post.

I update my post with reference, M'dear.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Actually, I'm not religious.

I don't believe in any god, or an afterlife, and view peeps that do as quite silly and afraid.

Your /fail is noted, however, in regards to your consistant and rather indicative attempts to poke fun at me.

Regards,

I was referring to myself, silly. Fail recorded and archived.

Silvarus wrote:

I was referring to myself, silly. Fail recorded and archived.

Then be sure to convey your message appropriately!
Damned Fins and their english!

And dun steal my tag lines!

Regards,

It seems to be a corruption of the passage from Hebrew to Latin fro what that says. *Shrugs* I'm not an expert in the matter, and he is. He's told me on numerous occasions that they are not the same, so I will leave him to defend it.

Yurell wrote:

At any rate, I've contacted someone who does Bible studies at uni and he might decide to post.

lol, there's no reason to turn this thread into a religious debate. I was just pointing out why he actually fell.

'Fallen' paladin / Cleric?

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