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BrainSplitter
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 Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 1:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Retard - Stupid
Arrogant - Selfrighteous.
Ignorant - Unlearned/Unknowing of details.
Why Arrogant/Selfrighteous?
You want something that breaks the rules, for your own enjoyment.
Your reasoning is that you want Petty Crime RP. Okay, you can't find a way to succeed in RP (and I know dozens of ways to make it succeed), so you want a mechanic to do it for you -without- doing it within our rules.
The two rules I can refer to here are PvP rules and Theft Rules.
The Theft rules are obvious. A player reserves the right to RP giving you an item and not mechanically giving you the item for it.
The PvP rules are a little less, however are very relevant. You must give any and all players an IC Out to PvP. PvP is classified as hostile actions against another player (Hence, Player Versus Player).
You can reason this stops people from playing Drow Hunters, Mass Murderers, and the like since you can't legally just kill someone as your character would want to do. However, people still manage quite well through RP, player consent, and actually working with other players instead of using mmechanics to do it all for them in breach of our rules.
Arrogant is wanting to have an ability, and deeming it your right, to be able to do something no one else can despite rules stopping them. That being, in this case, thieving from another and initiating in PvP actions without th econsent of another player or giving them anappropriate IC out.
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Mostly Retired
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Jan
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 1:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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The rules are (censored) stupid, not the players who disagree with you. When did you make them up anyway? The sure as heck weren't there before and the current PP system has worked fine for years.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 1:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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They're actually pretty old. Must have appeared after you bolted off for some months.
I actually agree the whole "Need Consent for Y, must give out for X, etc" is stupid. However, they are our rules.
Thus I'll make damn sure and try to keep them at least consistent instead of silly little widgets being added that break these rules without the others having said openings as well.
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Mostly Retired
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Jan
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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But they HAVE an opening, it's called the Spot skill!
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Okay. I'm going to use your reasoning.
I hereby proclaim that, at my will, I will start stealing One Epic Item or item of highest value should there be no epic items, from Any individual who has an Appraise Score lower than 50; under the reasoning that these characters would sell these items at a nominal cost due to not knowing of their mechantile value.
What? There's an opening to get out of it, it's called the Appraise skill!
It's flawed.
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Mostly Retired
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Jan
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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Your logic is flawed, you compare an action to a reaction and don't take the Lore skill into account.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Just as Pickpocket doesn't take Listen into account, nor the fact that players may not carry their gold on them at all times, nor the fact that ...
Shall we continue?
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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WonWon wrote: Okay. I'm going to use your reasoning.
I hereby proclaim that, at my will, I will start stealing One Epic Item or item of highest value should there be no epic items, from Any individual who has an Appraise Score lower than 50; under the reasoning that these characters would sell these items at a nominal cost due to not knowing of their mechantile value.
What? There's an opening to get out of it, it's called the Appraise skill!
It's flawed.
Don't you pay for that knowledge at the same time as identify?
Personally, I'm happy with the d100 PP idea, it's interesting and seems quite fair. Unless the cahnces are stacked against them, the thief has a 2/3 chance of winning, so:
Pr(win)*Amount won - Pr(lose)*Amount lost = (2/3)*Amount won - (1/3)*2*Amount won
=0.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Jan
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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So let's disable anything which is flawed because it violates rules which you yourself admit are stupid. Might as well go back to playing Pong.
Or we could change those silly little rules which I haven't seen any actual support for in the thread, just a lot of "it's the rules so..."
Also how do you type up your replies so frigging fast?
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Nope, PP is stupid.
But its a debate. Everyone has already chosen sides, and we are just gonna demonize each other.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I'm a computer geek. I type fast.
Anyway; We keep the rules in there to prevent grieving, and because as a design based decision; we haven't made the server hardcore RP or anything of the nature where you are so heavily bound to having your characters subjected to the will of another's concepts of RP.
We are, if you will, a slight bit Care-Bear'ey. If you want a more darker server, there are servers that cater to that (Ravenloft is a good intermediary one for that sort of style).
I think they're stupid, yep, but I know why they're there and until we as a Team decide to change them; I'll be enforcing them and keeping them in line to the best of my ability.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Yurell wrote: Personally, I'm happy with the d100 PP idea, it's interesting and seems quite fair. Unless the cahnces are stacked against them, the thief has a 2/3 chance of winning, so:
Pr(win)*Amount won - Pr(lose)*Amount lost = (2/3)*Amount won - (1/3)*2*Amount won
=0.
'Swhy I did it. Unless the Thief is picking his targets poorly, he's more than likely to come out on top. The chance for him to win is -about- 80% (I can't be arsed ot math out the new figures with the adjusted bases. It's very similar to the old). When he loses, he loses double. But that should be less frequent than him winning.
Mathematically, he should win 4 times before losing once.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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Dont make it so difficult WonWon. I got a 1 syllable answer for you 'No'
I still think that people should not be able tp pickpocket in cities if we cant pvp them for doing so.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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There's a pretty harsh Difficulty addition if you try and PP in any PvP area.
So if they do it, they're more than likely to lose and thus you get free gold out of it, and double what they'd get if they succeeded.
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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I know I know... But I really like killing thieves. I think I was like a 17th century executioner in a previous life.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 2:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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GreatPigeon wrote: I know I know... But I really like killing thieves. I think I was like a 17th century executioner in a previous life.
17th century you're more likely to rot in prison for theft. If it was major, you may be hanged.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Selmak
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Hasn't this topic reached maximum entropy yet? 
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selmak wrote: Hasn't this topic reached maximum entropy yet? ;)
Not when energy is constantly added to the system.
But having said that, as far as I can tell the arguments are just being recycled ... alternate suggestions or suggestions for modifications would be helpful and constructive, but continued argument really isn't.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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WonWon wrote: There's a pretty harsh Difficulty addition if you try and PP in any PvP area.
I'm not quite sure if you meant "Non-PvP area" or not, but I'll assume you meant PvP. Either you mean there is a bonus DC when you try to PP someone in Cordor South, which makes no sense, or the fact that if caught someone can be struck down.
Also, what about the other class that gets PP, hm? Bards? Ah yes, forgot about them again. According to you, your system of ability modifier's makes it harder for Joe Fighter to dump PP, which is good. But what about Herald the Pretty Boy Singer?
As far as I have see from the Bards of Amia, (Which, admittedly, isn't much.) they typically have maybe a +1 modifier, sometimes higher. _________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I did actually mean "In any No-PvP Area"; it was a typo.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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I wasn't sure.
So what exactly is the difficulty addition? Higher DC?
That makes Cordor; West, Central, and East less likely to be places the PP tool is used. But seeing how petty crime happens more commonly in areas of wealth, it seems a bit over the top. People don't typically PP many people in the 'Slums', as no one but the slummers are -usually- there. In Amia's case you would have people going South to Mystra's, but aside from that there's not really anything to draw people into a PP's sights.
This also decreases the "buddy system" effect in city areas, which should be where it majorly comes into play.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Well, typically, any thief in an area filled with guards tends to get absolutely pummeled when they're caught, arrested, and the like.
However, we can't do that effectively in a mechanical manner, so dissuading you from doing it to other people in an area where they cannot react further than "HEY! LOUD WORDS! SHOUTED EXPLETIVES! MENACING FIST SHAKING!" through the use of a greatly heightened DC will have to suffice.
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StandingBehindYou
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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I'm fairly surprised it will be enabled at all in non-PvP areas. It would seem that the same considerations would apply.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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I just submit the mechanics. It's Disco's call if it gets outright disabled in No PvP or not.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Why not simply add it so Guard NPC's are the only NPC's to add a bonus if nearby? +5 per guard, or such. Maybe more, if you're dissatisfied.
This is based purely on the assumption that all other NPC's are null and void in the calculations, because I didn't se ei t mentioned anywhere. I suggest this because I see absolutely no purpose to have an increased DC just because there are guards in that area, rather than in sight.
On that note, there are currently a lot of guards stationed in the South. More than through out West / Central, even. Why doesn't the increased check count there? Changing it to where it is based on a Guard _actually_ being nearby seems to make more sense.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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It will count there, because the area is No PvP. And I'm trying to keep the system simple.
There's also the issue that you're getting to perform a PvP action against someone in an area that PvP actions are not allowed.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 3:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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Err... Cordor: South is a PvP zone.
Edit; Apparently not? I know it -use- to be.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 4:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Not since the Guards took over in response to advertised criminal activity. It's not gonna be for the long term, though, don't worry.
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Wolfking6116
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 4:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: -5 GMT
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*Shrug* Fair enough.
In my personal opinion, I still think it would be better to have the guards individually count towards the check. But I guess that's just me.
_________________ Jack Tesilent - Jack's Bio
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The Incognitos
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 5:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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WonWon wrote: Retard - Stupid
Arrogant - Selfrighteous.
Ignorant - Unlearned/Unknowing of details.
Why Arrogant/Selfrighteous?
You want something that breaks the rules, for your own enjoyment.
Your reasoning is that you want Petty Crime RP. Okay, you can't find a way to succeed in RP (and I know dozens of ways to make it succeed), so you want a mechanic to do it for you -without- doing it within our rules.
The two rules I can refer to here are PvP rules and Theft Rules.
The Theft rules are obvious. A player reserves the right to RP giving you an item and not mechanically giving you the item for it.
The PvP rules are a little less, however are very relevant. You must give any and all players an IC Out to PvP. PvP is classified as hostile actions against another player (Hence, Player Versus Player).
You can reason this stops people from playing Drow Hunters, Mass Murderers, and the like since you can't legally just kill someone as your character would want to do. However, people still manage quite well through RP, player consent, and actually working with other players instead of using mmechanics to do it all for them in breach of our rules.
Arrogant is wanting to have an ability, and deeming it your right, to be able to do something no one else can despite rules stopping them. That being, in this case, thieving from another and initiating in PvP actions without th econsent of another player or giving them anappropriate IC out.
Yeah, thanks for the constructive input. I don't have a character that can PP, that's not why I was arguing the point. I was more concerned with how protective people are getting.
After abuse like that I can't say I care much anymore. Enjoy Amia everyone. _________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Olaf Grudgebringer: Stroppy Cleric or Morradin
Krunk (Underdark): Stay back! He's a bit mad.
the_incognitos@live.com
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Selmak
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 14:35 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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I think we know what this means.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 17:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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I still don't get why people want an ability to steal gold from other players, and say it's their fault for getting robbed if they don't invest into skill X. It's like someone saying "Yea well, he shouldn't have attacked the buffed up GS mage..", but last I checked, all that still got mages nerfed.
I couldn't care less if it's 1000 gold or 1 gold, it's a principle thing. Is it really so bad if you can't pp people, without RPing it (and thus with their consent), and just can pp NPCs or such?
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Lascivar
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 18:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Location: Queensland, Australia.
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Gravemaskin wrote: I still don't get why people want an ability to steal gold from other players, and say it's their fault for getting robbed if they don't invest into skill X. It's like someone saying "Yea well, he shouldn't have attacked the buffed up GS mage..", but last I checked, all that still got mages nerfed.
I couldn't care less if it's 1000 gold or 1 gold, it's a principle thing. Is it really so bad if you can't pp people, without RPing it (and thus with their consent), and just can pp NPCs or such?
I don't want to have to invest in Discipline, players shouldn't be able to KD or Disarm me.
I don't want to stack Fortitude, no players should be able to kill me with one hit, be it spells or dev crit.
I don't want to invest in Lockpicking, all doors should be unlocked.
I don't want to invest in UMD, allow every item to be available to me.
What is so bad about something negative happening to your character? Does it detract from the fact that people assume their characters are godly, but oh look, just had their purse snatched.. Down they go a notch.
_________________
Current characters:
Nazeris Defir
Malicar Drakespire
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StandingBehindYou
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 19:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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The Incognitos wrote: I don't have a character that can PP, that's not why I was arguing the point. The Incognitos wrote: I've tried dicebag PP before and was met with either no response, "use the widgit" or an emote of *loses one of his wallets*. Obviously none of these resulted in getting any loot.
Clearly you were not arguing the point because you have characters with PP, and clearly your motivation isn't ganking other players for phat lewt.
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Jan
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 19:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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StandingBehindYou wrote: Clearly you were not arguing the point because you have characters with PP, and clearly your motivation isn't ganking other players for phat lewt.
Uh what, he said he has tried dicebag PP instead of the mechanical way. Quit hating on the guy.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 20:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Lascivar wrote: I don't want to have to invest in Discipline, players shouldn't be able to KD or Disarm me.
I don't want to stack Fortitude, no players should be able to kill me with one hit, be it spells or dev crit.
I don't want to invest in Lockpicking, all doors should be unlocked.
I don't want to invest in UMD, allow every item to be available to me.
What is so bad about something negative happening to your character? Does it detract from the fact that people assume their characters are godly, but oh look, just had their purse snatched.. Down they go a notch.
Pickpocket is not exactly the same as a pvp fight, since you can't fight back, and don't get a means to fight them normally. Someone pickpocketing my char in a non pvp area, is like me demanding that I get to RP that I devcrit someone in that area and so on, by your example.
Pickpocket is a no consent needed way to -TAKE- from another player. you can kill them as much as you want, but you will still need consent to get cash or anything from them, past an "rply" way. (Imagining it was given).
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Nekhy
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Posted: Mon, Jun 01 2009, 20:12 PM |
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I am gonna lock this topic now. There's nothing but asshattery coming from every direction imaginable. Folks, do try to pay a little respect to each other, even if you disagree vehemently. There's no reason for namecalling and being general pricks even in a heated debate.
If the actual rolls still need discussion, Disco (or someone) can open up a topic for that later. But please, leave the recycled arguments pro and con out of it. This argument leads nowhere but to more arguing.
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