Suppose I'm one of the the only people that groans at the Temple of Sseth library sign with all the extra ssss's in the writing, like their hand was hissing uncontrollably at the time, but in sign language spasms with the pen...
My favorite is when Drow (and this is nothing against drow players, just the only time I see this) are obviously trying to hide their identity (i.e. armored from head to toe, never takes off their helm) yet they'll throw in drow words while speaking. I of course assume by doing so you want my Dwarf to pick up on the fact you're drow and engage in some sort of confrontation.
I've been guilty of this a few times. I get so used to typing "naut" as opposed to "not" that I'll throw it in when my drowsie is trying to pass her/himself off as not being a drow. When it does happen, I go with the flow. I figure that people who know multiple languages sometimes slip up and go back to their native tongue. Why should our characters be any different. The funny part about it is that I think I've only been called out on it once or twice out of the multiple dozens of times I've slipped up.
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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
What I would really like to see being taken into consideration when speaking another language than common, is that the grammar structure of another language often is radically different, and thus would have to be written differently, in RL anyway. An example from the real world would be the difference between oxford English and German Standard German (GSG), where word within the sentence with the exact same meaning would have a different position compared to eachother, and thats for two language that belong to the same family. I cant even start picturing how insanely different say dwarven and sylvan would be grammar wise.
Now Im not saying that one should change the orders of teh words in a sentence when you swicth from common to elven, but it would be nice to see people taking into consideration that swriting straight forward english when IC'ly speaking another language looks abit... strange, to me anyway. But that is ofcourse my personal oppinion, just as it is my personal oppinion that druidic shouldnt be used as a everyday language for explaining the newest fashion in Cordor, simply because druidic shouldnt even have words for fashion, or Cordor for that matter
Also, characters speaking [Animal] makes my eyes bleed.
_________________ "Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
3.5 restored Drow as a specific proficiency. Underdark regions usually offer the bonus language Elven (Drow dialect), not general Elven. Thank gods.
The 3.0 stance on it was a silly brainfart. Drow and Elven have never been considered one and the same lore-wise, even in 3e novels and articles. Pick up a novel from that time, and you will see that. Even if for a few years in the campaign's 20 years of publishing, Drow was lumped together with Elven in language proficiencies (a time during which a lot of "fluff" in rules was dropped in favor of a simpler whole), it doesn't mean that the lore, the history of the setting, the IC culture of Drow and Elves magically changed and then changed back. It's quite a weak case to make. A lot of crap is said when people can't seperate universal game rules and campaign-specific lore and flavour
If we wanted to be technical: even in the hypothetical case the the FRCS did specifically state there was no Drow language, but a single novel author had since then used the Drow language in a novel, that would retcon the FRCS. Because, "technically", new lore trumps old lore. That's not the case, though. (And that WotC policy should never be taken seriously.)
Not that it matters much, since Drow has always been Drow on Amia, but it's a pet peeve of mine. Calling stuff Amia homebrew when they're actually canon.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Thu, May 07 2009, 14:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.
The "drow speak elven" makes little sense in terms of language development, as well. If part of the population is essentially segregated from the rest in a wholly new environment with new influences, the language development of the groups will take a different route. You don't even need separation for that to happen IRL.
It's a silly oversight, given they did take into consideration the cultural development of the Underdark drow from the surface elves.
Magic isn't a valid excuse for dropping drow as a language, either.
But using a few words of Drow whilst speaking Common is plainly for dilly dallies. It makes no sense and it gives the impression that the character is just too stupid to say "yes" instead of "xas".
But using a few words of Drow whilst speaking Common is plainly for dilly dallies. It makes no sense and it gives the impression that the character is just too stupid to say "yes" instead of "xas".
And for the record, I'm assuming you mean throwing a few words of 'drow' into English? Seeing as that's the base language for Amia. If we were a Spanish speaking server our Common would be Spanish.
What's the difference between that and someone who uses thee, thou, ye and such? It's all used to add a bit of flavor to the RP. We could all use the translator if there was an actual drow language, but then it would take twice as long to RP because you'd have to switch everything over.
Ka ol 'udtila naut jivviim dos, ele 'udtila ol selg'tarn?
See what I mean? I can pick out 'naut' and 'dos' as 'not' and 'you', respectively. But the rest is lost to me. I just put it down so I know what I said, but if you ask me in a few minutes or just show it out of context, I'd be lost on it. Imagine having to decipher whole blocks of text like that. It would be a real pain and would turn lots of people off from RP'ing drow. It may be more 'authentic' but at what cost?
_________________
"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
[...] What's the difference between that and someone who uses thee, thou, ye and such? It's all used to add a bit of flavor to the RP. We could all use the translator if there was an actual drow language, but then it would take twice as long to RP because you'd have to switch everything over. [...]
The difference is that the ones you mentioned exist and are used. Well, only "ye" out of those is still used in real life, but archaic English was used and is still used in poetry, divine service and when you want to sound medieval.
Please, a linguistic or some random English pr0 correct me if I'm wrong.
Ye, Aye, Lad, Lass, o', etc are all british dialect words still in use today, not to mention being the form of english used in medieval times, and having many similarities to Norse if you go even further back in time
_________________ "Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
It's all considered archaic. Perhaps it's just that I'm in America and I've never heard anyone burst out with a thee or thou. But, now we're just debating semantics. I'll narrow the point further for those that wish to debate the semantics of a sentance.
What is the difference between a player using the typical Scottish baroque for their dwarf or using archaic English for their paladin and someone using a few words of drowish in their drows RP?
I've seen this debate numerous times on these forums and all I ever get from it is that non-drow players hate on the drow players for no real concrete reason. If you don't like it, then don't play a drow. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.
My main, Bree'nye, doesn't even use contractions in her speech to help bring out her "oh-so-proper" demeanor. It's just flavor to add to a character to make them pop out of the mold a little more.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
But using a few words of Drow whilst speaking Common is plainly for dilly dallies. It makes no sense and it gives the impression that the character is just too stupid to say "yes" instead of "xas".
One. I have two college degrees. An associates in physics and a bachelors in psychology. I use "xas" and "naut" and I would in no way think of myself as stupid and the insinuation that someone who chooses to flavor their RP with such words would be less of a RP'er because of such tends to make me think that perhaps it's the narrowmindedness of the person posting that leads them to such a conclusion.
Two. Just sounds a little too much like "My RP is the best and if you don't RP like me then you suck."
_________________
"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
I can't speak for the rest, but in my case the annoyance comes from not being able to understand what the roleplay is about, not from the use of different words per se. Most people, I guess, know what the archaic English words mean and can grasp the content of the text. With drow words that is not the case, minus "nau" and "xas", and titles etc. which don't define the RP too much. But when you start talking of orbbs and.. well, I can't think of more examples now, as I obviously don't know the drow language. But I guess you get the point.
Like I said, not comprehending what the RP is about is a killjoy for a DM trying to give you a DC for the RP.
I guess it's more the matter of sprinkling a foreign language, made-up or not, into English. That's what generally gets to me about it. I mean, you don't see Germans saying: "Ah, what a wunderbar day. Die Sonne is shining and there's keine worries." It is about flavour, as you say, but personally I find it disruptive to immersion rather than adding to it. This only applies to excessive use, though. Titles and common phrases (greetings, blessings, oaths) are good stuff, IMO. Xas and nau is borderline. "Naut" is really silly, I think, because you assume the Drow "nau" behaves like the English "no" (-> "not").
But it really is a matter of preference. I don't like it when Elven PCs use phrases that mean nothing to me, and I don't know the source of. I'd much rather see them use the English phrases coined in several novels, instead of some Tolkien-ripoff gibberish. But I suppose they're free to do so.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
you don't see Germans saying: "Ah, what a wunderbar day. Die Sonne is shining and there's keine worries."
Actually, you see that all the time in sitcoms and stand up, that's the default way of defining someone as German.
Same applies to other nationalities. They wouldn't do it themselves, but it's how they get defined. Germans in comedy, in particular, but you see Italian characters shout "Mamma mia!" and French characters go "Mon Dieu!" and so on in other types of films and TV, too.
Well, the Italians and the French actually do it even outside caricatures...
But using a few words of Drow whilst speaking Common is plainly for dilly dallies. It makes no sense and it gives the impression that the character is just too stupid to say "yes" instead of "xas".
One. I have two college degrees. An associates in physics and a bachelors in psychology. I use "xas" and "naut" and I would in no way think of myself as stupid and the insinuation that someone who chooses to flavor their RP with such words would be less of a RP'er because of such tends to make me think that perhaps it's the narrowmindedness of the person posting that leads them to such a conclusion.
Two. Just sounds a little too much like "My RP is the best and if you don't RP like me then you suck."
Mind that I said: it gives the impression that the character is just too stupid to say "yes" instead of "xas". Never meant to refer you, I'd never start calling people I don't even know stupid.
Nau and naut I completely understand as they are very close to "no" and "not". I don't really think that your college degrees have anything to do with common sense or personal preference either.
I apologise if I sounded rude or aggressive or stupid or whatever I am charged for, because I really had no regard to do so.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
I like Arelith's language system...*cough*
*prepares for the smiting*
(it lets whoever has the language token for said language understand it by sending the translated message to them, every dm has every language token so there isn't confusion to them at all, and lets players with the tokens speak their language without others knowing oocly what they said, it also means that said guy in the corner who knows 'x same language' can listen in on others speaking the same language and the other people will not know that he understands them..if 'x' guy in corner doesn't know the language (have the token) then the messages are not translated to him and he has no idea what they are saying.) DM's can also award language tokens to players for IC learning said new language, after witnessing rp/screenshots of it.
..it also has pretty colors for each language, like purple for drow and some kind of green for elf.
And it totally helps to prevent metagamming of what is being said.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
I believe Disco said something about lag last time that was suggested ... how smoothly would that run?
Although I must admit I am quite happy with the status quo.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
Language systems are hell on DMs and hell on lag. They're not very well done in NWN1.
QFE.
The language scripts themselves are -horrendous-. I've been in servers and such that have implemented them and, oh my god, they were horrible. While seeing the language in English/Whatever it was is cool, the lag and possible destruction of my computer was not worth it. On a server as large as Amia, the lag would be so bad, even those with fast running PCs would probably lag badly with all the script firing off. Think about it. There's, on average, a full server every day... pretend most of those are elves (I think they actually are). Could you image the lag that would be caused by, say, 50 elves firing off that script? No one would be able to walk anywhere.
And whomever that was shouldn't have said 'psychology degree' when wanting to look clever. I've never met a person with a psychology degree that wasn't at least partly mental themselves. I've met heaps of them, used to do Pschy., changed to philosophy. I'll be poor but I'll know why (metaphysically speaking).
EDIT: Are Physicists still having collective tantrums over Philosophy reasserting itself in quantum physics? Out of the study loop, you leave those institutions and it all slips away into more interesting things...
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
The Incognitos wrote:
And whomever that was shouldn't have said 'psychology degree' when wanting to look clever. I've never met a person with a psychology degree that wasn't at least partly mental themselves. I've met heaps of them, used to do Pschy., changed to philosophy. I'll be poor but I'll know why (metaphysically speaking).
EDIT: Are Physicists still having collective tantrums over Philosophy reasserting itself in quantum physics? Out of the study loop, you leave those institutions and it all slips away into more interesting things...
It's not fair to belittle someone else's degree like that.
And as for the edit, no, we're not.
_________________ 2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
And whomever that was shouldn't have said 'psychology degree' when wanting to look clever. I've never met a person with a psychology degree that wasn't at least partly mental themselves. I've met heaps of them, used to do Pschy., changed to philosophy. I'll be poor but I'll know why (metaphysically speaking).
EDIT: Are Physicists still having collective tantrums over Philosophy reasserting itself in quantum physics? Out of the study loop, you leave those institutions and it all slips away into more interesting things...
It's not fair to belittle someone else's degree like that.
And as for the edit, no, we're not.
As a philosophy major myself, I don't feel the need to attack the opposite sciences for the way they do things. We do what we do and we are what we are because that's where we've been lead. We don't need to attack the choice of others.
Also, I would suggest heading back on track with the topic; it's not science vs. philosophy. >.>
Although, a thought related to the post where this came from:
'Xas' doesn't bother me. Neither do the other smaller words that I can make sense of (i.e. Ilharess). I agree with Nekhy though, you start throwing in really long titles and names, I have no idea what you're talking about. One of my biggest pet peeves is 'naut/nau.' To me, it looks the exact same as 'not/no.' I suppose to me it would be more logical to use drow words that don't sound similar to the common. Though, I'm not going to shoot you down if you do. I only ask that you ease up a little. (This isn't directed at ainjyll. I'm saying you in general.) When a sentence turns into something with two words in common/english and 12 in drow.... you've lost me. Remember, to most of us that don't actively play in the UD, the drow language is a mystifying and confusing experience. lol
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Ramika wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
Language systems are hell on DMs and hell on lag. They're not very well done in NWN1.
QFE.
The language scripts themselves are -horrendous-. I've been in servers and such that have implemented them and, oh my god, they were horrible. While seeing the language in English/Whatever it was is cool, the lag and possible destruction of my computer was not worth it. On a server as large as Amia, the lag would be so bad, even those with fast running PCs would probably lag badly with all the script firing off. Think about it. There's, on average, a full server every day... pretend most of those are elves (I think they actually are). Could you image the lag that would be caused by, say, 50 elves firing off that script? No one would be able to walk anywhere.
Seriously. No language scripts. Bad, bad juju.
To this i say Arelith has managed to pull it off quite nicely lag-wise. (still tough for dm's tho)
But no we are not arelith...I wonder what kind of hosting server they use though.
Language systems are hell on DMs and hell on lag. They're not very well done in NWN1.
QFE.
The language scripts themselves are -horrendous-. I've been in servers and such that have implemented them and, oh my god, they were horrible. While seeing the language in English/Whatever it was is cool, the lag and possible destruction of my computer was not worth it. On a server as large as Amia, the lag would be so bad, even those with fast running PCs would probably lag badly with all the script firing off. Think about it. There's, on average, a full server every day... pretend most of those are elves (I think they actually are). Could you image the lag that would be caused by, say, 50 elves firing off that script? No one would be able to walk anywhere.
Seriously. No language scripts. Bad, bad juju.
To this i say Arelith has managed to pull it off quite nicely lag-wise. (still tough for dm's tho)
But no we are not arelith...I wonder what kind of hosting server they use though.
Arelith doesn't have quite the active playerbase Amia does, as well as at least another 30 people DC spamming to get in, plus the DM run events, specially scripted items, the job system, mages sitting in Cordor in full buffs... You get my point. Amia is laggy as it is.
Arelith may have pulled it off, but I don't think (right now) Amia could. It'd be too much for the server (both the physical object and the people) to keep up with.
I think it is on topic and I agree ... it is an integral part of the language system as it stands at the moment.
Yep. Basically we must trust other players that they won't metagame and at the same time, be responsible enough to know and ensure that everyone is having fun. It's never fun to be excluded from RP because of language tags or fictional languages or whatever, so please, use them responsibly.
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Location: Some planet known as Earth
Magnum Opera wrote:
Yurell wrote:
I think it is on topic and I agree ... it is an integral part of the language system as it stands at the moment.
Yep. Basically we must trust other players that they won't metagame and at the same time, be responsible enough to know and ensure that everyone is having fun. It's never fun to be excluded from RP because of language tags or fictional languages or whatever, so please, use them responsibly.
...I like longer posts...it totally fits now.
I concede that his point was On Topic in that case.
I think it is on topic and I agree ... it is an integral part of the language system as it stands at the moment.
Yep. Basically we must trust other players that they won't metagame and at the same time, be responsible enough to know and ensure that everyone is having fun. It's never fun to be excluded from RP because of language tags or fictional languages or whatever, so please, use them responsibly.
...I like longer posts...it totally fits now.
I concede that his point was On Topic in that case.
Sorry about that, I'm kinda lazy with my posts, heh. I'll try to write with more detail next time. Thanks for the feedback.
not science vs. philosophy... Philosophy re-entering physics was what I was getting at. Remember that late 70's stuff when they started thinking they were hitting a figurative wall with numerical metaphysics and started theorizing about parallel dimensions and so on?
_________________ Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...
not science vs. philosophy... Philosophy re-entering physics was what I was getting at. Remember that late 70's stuff when they started thinking they were hitting a figurative wall with numerical metaphysics and started theorizing about parallel dimensions and so on?
Yes, I do. And as I said above, there's no real reason to get into it in this thread, that's not what it's for. If you'd like to discuss it, start a new thread for it.
Magnum Opera wrote:
Trust and responsibility - it's what I like here in Amia.
QFE! It's why we don't need to do something like the language system.
not science vs. philosophy... Philosophy re-entering physics was what I was getting at. Remember that late 70's stuff when they started thinking they were hitting a figurative wall with numerical metaphysics and started theorizing about parallel dimensions and so on?
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
ticket wrote:
The Incognitos wrote:
not science vs. philosophy... Philosophy re-entering physics was what I was getting at. Remember that late 70's stuff when they started thinking they were hitting a figurative wall with numerical metaphysics and started theorizing about parallel dimensions and so on?
String theory you mean?
*Ducks behind a rock*
Let's not go into supersymmetry now ... that debate can wait.
Te crap thing about randomness is that although it makes the future unpredictable (yay for free will),it also makes the past inherently so ... meaning your memories may not be accurate.
At any rate, let's stop this tangent.
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It's never fun to be excluded from RP because of language tags or fictional languages or whatever, so please, use them responsibly.