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IronAngel wrote:

(Btw, my earlier post in no way contradicted posted rules; I'm not sure what's being referred to.)

I didn't mean that your post contradicted the rules: I meant the rules answered the question you were asking.

StandingBehindYou wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Well, Yurell, I'm inclined to believe one can't simply avoid an emoted grappling attempt. You cannot ignore RP, that is a rule. You should phrase your emotes against other PCs as attempts, that's also a rule. Combined, these rules seem to say that your attempt to evade a role-played grapple (without rolls) must also be just an attempt.

That is not what the rule says though: it says that actions you perform on someone else’s character must be phrased as an attempt. (Assuming again that that post was more official than the one I'm quoting.)

I'm not seeing the difference here. Isn't that exactly what I said?

An action you perform on someone else's character = an emote against another PC (the wording I used). This also, of course, includes reactions to any attempts directed at you. If I attempt to grapple you, you cannot avoid it without directing an action upon me, the grappler, and my action, grappling. Therefore, trying to avoid my grapple is obviously an action performed on my person, for all intents and purposes.

I do not suggest the unending loop of attempts and counter-attempts is desireable, though. I'm just showing that rules-lawyerism goes both ways. It's not desireable in any form, and the moment people have to refer to rules to "win" in an RP situation is the moment the spirit of the game is lost.

Whether or not Freedom should make you immune to all role-played grapple attempts isn't only dependant on the specifics of the spell description, but also the demands of story progression and fair play. I agree it's subjective and pretty borderline, but to me it does seem an incredibly lame way out. I wouldn't want to play with people who "godgamed" with their Freedom; or with their Epic Dodge, or any other ability, for that matter. The realities of NWN mechanics and game balance shouldn't control our RP atmosphere and force us all to be invincible superheroes with more magic than a small city at our disposal. It's lame, and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: OK. I phrased the rhetorical question a bit wrong, I suppose. This post should clarify it, though.

IronAngel wrote:

Whether or not Freedom should make you immune to all role-played grapple attempts isn't only dependant on the specifics of the spell description, but also the demands of story progression and fair play. I agree it's subjective and pretty borderline, but to me it does seem an incredibly lame way out. I wouldn't want to play with people who "godgamed" with their Freedom; or with their Epic Dodge, or any other ability, for that matter. The realities of NWN mechanics and game balance shouldn't control our RP atmosphere and force us all to be invincible superheroes with more magic than a small city at our disposal. It's lame, and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

I fundamentally agree with you that in some instances story should take prededence over mechanics, if the mechanics would lead to a result detrimental to the atmosphere. If someone is holding a knife to my character's throat, as far as I am concerned my character will die if they try to move, regardless of how many hit points they have.

From my perspective though, the reality of certain effects is part of the atmosphere. The analogy I would use is, would it be "god-gaming" for someone with a fire-immunity ring to say that you can't burn him with a candle? Maybe, but to me, there's more story value in portraying his fire-immunity in a consistent fashion than in changing it apparently on whim. (It isn't even as if Freedom stops you from capturing someone in the first place: threaten to kill them if they move, or beat them into submission, or have fancy "freedom-negating gloves.")

IronAngel wrote:

I wouldn't want to play with people who "godgamed" with their Freedom; or with their Epic Dodge, or any other ability, for that matter.

how exactly is using my Epic Dodge on any of my characters to dodge the first attack of a round god gaming? I spent a good portion of effert and building to be able to use that feat...you can't even get it until lvl 27....so I believe I've got the right to auto dodge anyone trying to touch me, unless they try to touch me twice real fast....but chances are the second touch will miss anyway..most epic dodgers also have high touch AC so....go figure...

All that is true. Mechanics-wise, you are perfectly right. That doesn't make it any less ridicilous, less harmful immersion, or better storytelling. You don't have the "right" to anything, and I think simply the notion of getting to do something automatically is lame.

So yeah, you're allowed to play like that. You're not even wrong, technically. But I still wouldn't want to play with you, if you lorded your epic abilities all over good story and atmosphere. Personal preference, of course. I'm sure it also has to do with the fact that I think of level 30 characters as unusually skilled, talented and experienced, but quite normal people. The whole superhero thing doesn't float my boat.

How do you go about proving you wee wearing the freedom gear in the first place? They can prove their grapple.

I've always suggested just scripting a grapple widget "learnable" by all melee classes.

You already have the rolls down from the dicebag script. Can't it just be put into action? On success against a target's touch AC, have both user and target cut-scene frozen for 1 round. Or rolls made -each- round vs str to see if target breaks free. Of course make the script check for freedom, if that's needed.

Then we wouldn't have to worry about who's following who's PnP guidelines or house-rules. It'll just be a part of the game like it should be. No more "Nu-uh, I don't think my char would get touched!", it's either he does or he doesn't.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I've always suggested just scripting a grapple widget "learnable" by all melee classes.

You already have the rolls down from the dicebag script. Can't it just be put into action? On success against a target's touch AC, have both user and target cut-scene frozen for 1 round. Or rolls made -each- round vs str to see if target breaks free. Of course make the script check for freedom, if that's needed.

Then we wouldn't have to worry about who's following who's PnP guidelines or house-rules. It'll just be a part of the game like it should be.

I would certainly be in favor of this, regardless of whether it respected Freedom or not. (I like widgets!) I just wouldn't want it to be overpowered compared to current methods of stopping someone.

The only thing is that I would not restrict it to 'melee classes.' There's no reason why the maneuver shouldn't be open to everyone, and since it uses Strength and BAB, melee classes are inherently better suited to it.

TormakSaber wrote:

To be honest, that was always the one part of freedom I never liked that it makes you 100% immune to grappling. I understand it's part of the "freedom" concept, but if I'm ever your DM for a situation, this is your warning that I may very well not accept "I have Freedom" as away out of a grapple situation.

Quote:

All rolls are optional, yes. The rules also state you cannot ignore other people's RP. So what's to say you can't RP grappling someone, and refusing to roll Grapple, therefore being able to refuse the Freedom effect in good conscience, as well?

we can't ignore other's rp? not even the wootersons who are on a mission to find a muffin or some crap like that, who stop you on the little bridge over the stream just north of cordor and ask you your name, quest and favorite color?

I don't like that rule

ILoveIceCream wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I wouldn't want to play with people who "godgamed" with their Freedom; or with their Epic Dodge, or any other ability, for that matter.

how exactly is using my Epic Dodge on any of my characters to dodge the first attack of a round god gaming? I spent a good portion of effert and building to be able to use that feat...you can't even get it until lvl 27....so I believe I've got the right to auto dodge anyone trying to touch me, unless they try to touch me twice real fast....but chances are the second touch will miss anyway..most epic dodgers also have high touch AC so....go figure...

Epic Dodge isn't a problem. It's an -Epic- feat. It's when someone puts a crossbow to the back of your head, releases, and by the time the bolt as shot free of the bow, you've ducked in a miraculous way.

Just saying *Epic Dodge* isn't so cool though. If you're creative in the way you emote it, I don't think people will mind. I've noticed it becomes an issue when people who are slow typers then try to attack you again. The emote may come a minute later, but then they claim it was immediately. Guess you have to go with the situation and react accordingly.

I agree that just emoting *Fails at grapple* is bad sportsmanship - if they don't agree to grapple they can roll a touch attack. Of course, there is the AoO to be had by the person being attacked.

So what does this suggested rule introduce? From what I've seen it allows someone to use a PnP ability without allowing a legit PnP counter, which, since it is not mandatory to roll anyway, does nothing.

If someone wants to grapple me, they can use PnP rules and I'll likely accept.
If they don't want that, they can attempt a melee touch attack, provoking an AoO.

Well, there is an easy solution and a hard solution to the whole problem:

1) Remove Freedom (along with all other permanent immunities) as permanent immunity from items in the game (my favourit, and no, I dont play a mage)

2) Roll with the punches and dont be a douchbag.

The first one obviously being the easiest one, and thus out of the question. In my oppinion, any over-use of item given immunities in emotes is just plain lame, incredbly annoying to deal with, and oozes of a lack of imagination. As for Freedom making you a unstoppable, ungrappable, unrestrainable badass... I will ignore such "RP" without a second thought and do something more interesting. Like watching pixel grass grow in Amia Forest.

Oh, and those Wootersons stopping people on the Cordor Bridge and ripping off The Quest fo the Holy Grail. It was awesome, and should be done again! I enjoyed it immensly.

Can we just seriously just consider a grapple widget (for all classes)?

I mean, with all respect, I highly doubt any of the DMs want to or -will- go back in and delete freedom from every item in the module, let alone replace it with stats to make up for it.

A grapple widget that ignores freedom. That's my suggestion for this whole thing.

i personally always react in such a way that is reasonable. If you come from behind and try to grapple me, and i have no idea its coming, then i wont even roll a counter. if you come dead on at me and try to do something and i see you the entire time, then i will react.

Don't forget grappling provokes an attack of opportunity unless you have the improved grapple feat (which would be only monks since it isn't selectable in game) and if you get hit you automatically fail the grapple.

As for removing Freedom, is it possible to just put a script on the mirror that sees if you have an item with permanent Freedom and replace it with Freedom (3/day)? I believe the answer to this last time was yes, but it was decided it would upset too many people.

And for grappling, I'd like to use an analogy ... I can choose to play checkers with my friend, or I can choose not to.
If I choose to, I have two choices before me - forced to jump or not forced to jump. If my parents instigate a rule where there is forced jump, I will have to play with forced jump when interacting with them, but not my friend - if he refuses to play without forced jump, I can simply choose to not play.

So before rule:
Accepts Grapple or Refuses Grapple
If Refused:
That's it.
If Accepted:
Accepted on condition that full PnP rules apply
Accepted on condition that select PnP rules apply

After rule:
Accepts Grapple or Refuses Grapple
If Refused:
That's it.
If Accepted:
Accepted on condition that full PnP rules apply
Accepted on condition that select PnP rules apply

So what has changed? When interacting with a DM they can arbitrarily decide which way to go anyway, so the rule itself serves no purpose other than to encourage debate.

In my humble opinion, rolling dices is destined to fail in a game like NWN. Too few know the PnP rules, too few have the patience (including me) and very few actually find the cluttering rewarding enough to make the effort.

I won't mind acting out a grappling contest between two characters. Granted... the other guy won't go dice-anal on me nor fetch the PvP tool immediately in order to start buffing.

If the other guy isn't sensible, and can come to a mutual understanding of either his/her character out-grappling mine (through emote enactment) or my character out-grappling his/hers, then I won't bother with it.

Again, in my humble opinion, these things should be simple and fun, if practised, in a game such as NWN.

In PnP, however, I live the technicalities.

Kjetta wrote:

Ugh. Don't try to make sense of freedom like that, it clearly doesn't make sense at all if you were to treat it as some property that makes you physically oblivious to all external forces. If freedom did work in this universal way; with freedom, you wouldn't be able to stand as there would be no friction between you and the ground. And why would you not fall towards the center of gravity of Toril? Why can't you move through walls? Why doesn't freedom enable you to fly? How about pressure? Will you explode like you were floating in space, as you disregard the forces of air on your body? Isn't it obvious that it's best to think of freedom as mysterious property that seriously bolsters your ability to shrug off some movement-hampering burdens but not all.

The issue is that freedom is quite common on Amia as a permanet property, do we really want a world were you need magic for everything? Even stopping a common purse-napper?

Magic is not physics.

You cannot compare the two. Please, for the love of Chaos, don't try to apply present day concepts to a Fantasy role playing game with Magic.

Freedom specifically provides the individual enchanted with it to escape grapple, snares, etc. It's MAGIC.

Not physics.

While I agree that it's ultimately a maturity thing, requiring or expecting that every person on the server will ultimately become mature is ridiculous.

Hence the reason for the clarification. For myself? I'll RP with anyone who does things the "right" way, and if they come up and god emote a grapple, I'll say "Freedom, thank you", unless of course the DM's say otherwise

And please, don't remove perm freedom. This isn't, by any means, a low magic server, and I'd love to stop the spell nurfbat at some point. Otherwise, let's just remove all the other permanent immunities too, including the DC items people paid for.

I mean, this isn't ULTRA REALISM.. it's a G-A-M-E.

Regards,

Also worth remembering that Freedom is a Dex characters only defense against a grapple. Granted it's a bloody good one but the downside to it is that it leaves you open to more extreme methods of restraint, like smashing. Two sides to the story remember.

Technically, shouldn't the action of aquiring the grapple be DEX based (and the counter roll as well), and the *maintaining* of the grapple once it succeeds be STR based?

Not talking pnp rules when I say that, by the way, but rather....logic. Yes, I know, that might be too much to ever ask for.

Either way, screw rolls. If I think you should be able to grapple me, you can. If not....well, not.

Cori wrote:

Either way, screw rolls. If I think you should be able to grapple me, you can. If not....well, not.

This.

And more often than not, I think you can grapple me, so long as you don't force me to rollplay rather than roleplay.

Cori wrote:

Technically, shouldn't the action of aquiring the grapple be DEX based (and the counter roll as well), and the *maintaining* of the grapple once it succeeds be STR based?

Not talking pnp rules when I say that, by the way, but rather....logic. Yes, I know, that might be too much to ever ask for.

Either way, screw rolls. If I think you should be able to grapple me, you can. If not....well, not.

Logically the guy with the right combination of dex / str will win, and above that the guy with the higher monk levels (since they're trained in and-to-hand martial arts; everyone else instigates an AoO).

And Dexterity characters can escape a pin (after they've been grappled), but they have basically no way o otherwise winning a grapple - the whole idea for the dex character is to win the attack of opportunity or roll Escape Artist (which I guess would be Tumble in this).

LEt's not have the dex/STR grappling arguement again, please...

Mm, does or can reflex save / AC be used to dodge the grapple?

Touch AC. It's touch attacks to begina grapple. Dexterity characters innately have a higher touch AC. That's the dex defense.

Seriously.. why such a bother about that freedom stuff, I got a rogue/SD with lots of dex and freedom and Epic Dodge. Some things I did epic dodge, like someone trying to slap her or such, but other stuff that comes from behind (naughty me now <.<) did she not see or sense, even with her 30-ish listen and spot.

Some people will just play fair and not always call upon stuff. Sometimes ignoring something, even if the rules say otherwise, can make things better for all of us.

Especially with a 'nya nya you can't touch this *dance*' thing like Freedom in pnp.

My baseline for the physics of NWN is the physics seen in the likes of Crouching Tiger, House of Flying Daggers and Hero.

But those same guys that can run along a tiny strip of green bamboo as if it's the Golden Gate will still cut themselves shaving or stub a toe on a flagstone if the plot demands it.

Yossarin wrote:

Cori wrote:

Either way, screw rolls. If I think you should be able to grapple me, you can. If not....well, not.

This.

And more often than not, I think you can grapple me, so long as you don't force me to rollplay rather than roleplay.

So...is that an offer, or are you too busy with Tormak's mom?

TormakSaber wrote:

Touch AC. It's touch attacks to begina grapple. Dexterity characters innately have a higher touch AC. That's the dex defense.

Yup, for dexers you have three opportunities if you feel you can't win a grapple check.
1. You get an AoO ... hit them and do damage, and the grapple fails
2. They need to make a melee touch attack - you have high AC
3. After being pinned or wile being grappled you can make an Escape Artist check (Tumble for NWN I'd assume) - if you beat their grapple check, you're free

Then of course there's always Freedom of Movement which gets you out of grapple anyway.

Uberuce wrote:

My baseline for the physics of NWN is the physics seen in the likes of Crouching Tiger, House of Flying Daggers and Hero.

But those same guys that can run along a tiny strip of green bamboo as if it's the Golden Gate will still cut themselves shaving or stub a toe on a flagstone if the plot demands it.

What he said. If I use Freedom as a grapple escape then I can hardly blame the grappler for thinking 'fine, now I smash you unconscious' and doing so. Way I see it my IC out was to be grappled. Unless of course they are going to sacrifice me, then it's a fight.

It's just about what suits the story more. (Before anyone remembers a specific incident I'll admit I've been a wanker in the past and leave it at that.)

If they're grappling you they've already started 'PvP', especially since you get an AoO - it isn't a way out.

Yurell wrote:

If they're grappling you they've already started 'PvP', especially since you get an AoO - it isn't a way out.

Agreed. It's just ROLL-played pvp, instead of game mechanics based pvp.

Which is why I still prefer to have such things be ROLE played instead. If yer gonna use rolls, might as well be the ones the game is set up to have nice graphics for.

And regardless of rolls, as Ruce said, and as Erfworld made happen, "PLOT" is the ultimate power.

I like to have my plots manhandled by mechanics, actually; I like creativity within a framework of rules and regulations. If it becomes too much "let's just say you made that reflex save, because that would have been awesome" then something's lost to me.

Kjetta wrote:

I like to have my plots manhandled by mechanics, actually; I like creativity within a framework of rules and regulations. If it becomes too much "let's just say you made that reflex save, because that would have been awesome" then something's lost to me.

I agree ... while I don't like social skills, things the mechanics are designed for I believe is best left handled to mechanics - there can always be something to go wrong, everything hinges on the roll of a die.

Mechanics and ROLL play are so not the same.

"Grapple" is not a nwn form of attack. Even with a widget that uses dice rolls, it's still not game mechanics.

If you want to use knockdown or imp. knockdown on me, I'm all for it. I've no issue with ignoring the automatic stand-up that would likely happen too fast for more than one typed comment, in favour of PLOT.

I just *really* hate dice rolls.

You do realise you're playing a game were basically every mechanic is based on dice rolls?

How often can you roll grapple?

As in: can you roll it until you roll high and the beefcake holding you rolls low?

Yurell wrote:

If they're grappling you they've already started 'PvP', especially since you get an AoO - it isn't a way out.

You don't get an attack of opportunity if the other person has Improved Unarmed Strike.

Vedran the Mad wrote:

Yurell wrote:

If they're grappling you they've already started 'PvP', especially since you get an AoO - it isn't a way out.

You don't get an attack of opportunity if the other person has Improved Unarmed Strike.

Actually, you do. It's only Improved Grapple that removes that.

No dice rolls for me. Smack them unconscious then grapple them all you want, I say.

Vedran the Mad wrote:

Yurell wrote:

If they're grappling you they've already started 'PvP', especially since you get an AoO - it isn't a way out.

You don't get an attack of opportunity if the other person has Improved Unarmed Strike.

Ordinarily I'd say 1 level of monk should get it, but you get Stunning Fist, when it is either that or Improved Grapple.

Yurell wrote:

You do realise you're playing a game were basically every mechanic is based on dice rolls?

You do realise it could be randomly decided that you have to pass a roll to drink a potion, and not retardedly dump it in your lap?

I play a game where if I want to attack something, i click....attack. Not where I have to sit there typing out that I "try to swing", wait for the opponent to type whatever response they want, type out my next move, and so on, interspersed with pauses as we all click through the options to get to whatever dice roll I need. This isn't a text MUD.

Rolling dice for every damn thing, when rp can just as easily dictate the results, is incredibly obtrusive, and drastically takes away from the flow of rp. All it requires to perform generally-rolled-for actions, is people to work together, and be willing to react without requiring a dice roll to tell them how to.

The only time I've rolled, and it has only happened once, is when another pc of similar level to my own, at low levels, tried to capture me and drag me to drowland. I wasn't super thrilled to do this, but I tend to role with the punches if the rp is there, which it was. Since I was wavering on whether to do this, I decided to allow a roll to help me with my decision. I lost the roll, and decided to go for it. Glad i did, as it ended up being some fantastic (to my shock) RP. Next time, if there *is* a next time, I likely won't roll. I'll role.

That's really what it boils down to. If you can't get what you want by role playing with me, you sure as heck aren't gonna get it by roll playing. Had that drow not role played well, I'd have laughed in their face at any attempt to roll play me into being captured.

But that's my personal preference and choice, on this role play server of ours.

Since you get an AOO if they attempt to grapple you, is that a fair reason to Set Hostile then stab them in the face and let the engine work out who wins?

Marauth wrote:

Since you get an AOO if they attempt to grapple you, is that a fair reason to Set Hostile then stab them in the face and let the engine work out who wins?

Would that not defeat the purpose of a grapple?

Anyone uses grappe rolls outside of Cordor East anyway? Ruce's method is solid.

Uberuce wrote:

How often can you roll grapple?

As in: can you roll it until you roll high and the beefcake holding you rolls low?

Once a round I believe it is, while they're holding you down and mercilessly beating the crap through you.
I'm not entirely sure, as the system is fairly complicated and involved >.>

NWN's grapple is Knockdown. You knock them on their ass, and beat them into the floor. I personally feel it should be left to the engine to decide rolls and things when it comes to combat.

We've got a perfectly good, working system of automated dice rolling here... and we're pulling out our own set of dice to replace it? Nuh uh.

Um...no. Caving someone's chest in with your sword pommel so hard they fall to the ground (Read: KD) is -not- the same as bear hugging someone so they can't hurt you or themselves (aka Grappling). Please. Don't equate KD to any type of grapple. You can grapple a little NPC girl to stop her from throwing a tantrum. You -can't-, or rather -shouldn't- KD the brat, thus, they are WAY different.

Can any DM's chime in on the possibility of a grapple widget? Really, I don't see any of this debating of who's rules for grappling rules are better getting anywhere. It's not gonna change how people already play it. And I seriously doubt there's gonna be an official rule made about how to handle it. So, again, if any of the head honchos can tell me if a grapple widget would be feasable, I'd appreciate.

I'm pretty sure the description of "Knockdown" doesn't include any details on the power of the hit used to actually *do* the knocking down. If you are a huge hulking monstrosity of a half-orc, it likely takes more to knock you down than it does a flimsy little wisp of a 10 year old girl. I'd hope.

This would be where "role play" and "imagination" come into the matter. Kind of like how some pale master's roleplay out the loss of their arm, and it's replacement with a skeletal one, while some just shrug and go "lawl, cool!" (as an example).

Dark Immolation wrote:

Um...no. Caving someone's chest in with your sword pommel so hard they fall to the ground (Read: KD) is -not- the same as bear hugging someone so they can't hurt you or themselves (aka Grappling). Please. Don't equate KD to any type of grapple. You can grapple a little NPC girl to stop her from throwing a tantrum. You -can't-, or rather -shouldn't- KD the brat, thus, they are WAY different.

Can any DM's chime in on the possibility of a grapple widget? Really, I don't see any of this debating of who's rules for grappling rules are better getting anywhere. It's not gonna change how people already play it. And I seriously doubt there's gonna be an official rule made about how to handle it. So, again, if any of the head honchos can tell me if a grapple widget would be feasable, I'd appreciate.

I don't forsee a "grapple widget". You have the rolls and you are all (hopefully) mature, reasonable people. Work it out yourselves.

Re: KD. In 3.5e it's actually called "trip". So....

Freedom and Grappling

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