I was just wondering about the possibility or impossibility of speaking while shifted into animal forms (animals or creatures who don’t normally speak that is, like panther or jaguar, etc).
So…is it possible? Could it be done in druidic only?
I have been speaking while in panther form because I considered that while the druid manages to maintain control over the creature he has shaped himself into they can make use of their humanoid or whatever else intelligence and produce words (a parrot for example, is –able- to imitate words if he hears them enough times, albeit not as well as a human but understandable still. The same goes for some remarkable dogs and cats. They could speak, if they knew how to coordinate their jaws and tongue, lol.) If the druid/shifter loses himself to his form, then speech is no longer possible because the animal brain takes over.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
Yes... the majority of animals don't have the anatomy to speak words. (their cardiovascular system isn't designed for speaking, they do not have conventional voice boxes like we do and their fangs/teeth/beaks and tongues are differently shaped to ours making it all but impossible for a druid to speak whilst shifted in that form)
Because magic allows it to happen is a very poor excuse. Better not to do it.
That being said, would a shifter know how to communicate using Illithid psionics? I know it's common practice to those who extensively use the form.
Am I totally off track when I think I have heard of some feat in some book allowing the shifter/druid to speak while in animal form?
Tried glancing through Master of the Wild and there wasn't anythign except a feat for the shifter to speak with species of the same kind as shifted into.
_________________ ...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much... - Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
_________________ "Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."
_________________ ...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much... - Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
To clear up some things I commonly see-
- Animal is not a language.
- Wolf is not a language.
- Druidic is a language that is highly secret, taught from one Druid to another, and never EVER shared with anyone who is not a Druid. (Not even trusted Rangers)
- Wolves that are cuddly and cute and soft are probably not going to be looked upon nicely by other wolves.
Here's my opinion on how this all works:
All animals can communicate. Obviously you would need to know ALOT about them to understand their subtle gestures and body language. Some are much easier to pick than others. Some animals, in my opinion, have base commands or calls which can give someone the general idea.
If you want to shapeshift into a type of animal and try to communicate with people, you can do whatever you want. Your own mind is in that form, so if you wanted... you could become a wolf, then go write in the sand for people to see it.
The chances are, unless you're finely in tune with that particular animal... Other animals of that species are going to notice something is wrong. You probably won't be doing all of the subtle gestures or acting exactly as that animal, for the simple reason that... you're not actually one.
Druids CAN speak to animals, through the 'Speak with Animals' Druid spell. But you'd need to cast it, and it would be just as with any other PnP spell on Amia. Unfortunately, the spell won't work whilst you're in the shape of an animal.
_________________ Aravain, Champion of Song. Anar, a dark elf. Giovanni, Blood Knight.
I've never played a druid, but it makes sense that you pantomime what you wanted pretty easy in most forms. Just watch your (or someone else's) pet dog or cat and watch how they act when they want something. Then, it's just a simple transfer of what you observed into the game. For example,
Ears back, head slightly lowered, tail raised just above the level of the back would be an aggressive posture for a dog or wolf.
_________________
"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
I am looking forward to the inevitbale pvp disagreement:
"Yes, I gave clear IC warning that I was about to attack."
"What did you do?"
"I emoted that my pupils were dilated."
*LOL* Yeah...can imagine it happening!
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
"He had ample IC opportunity to react to my territorial urine markings."
Bloody Scotsmen....
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
Marauth wrote:
To clear up some things I commonly see- - Animal is not a language. - Wolf is not a language. - Druidic is a language that is highly secret, taught from one Druid to another, and never EVER shared with anyone who is not a Druid. (Not even trusted Rangers) - Wolves that are cuddly and cute and soft are probably not going to be looked upon nicely by other wolves.
Here's my opinion on how this all works:
All animals can communicate. Obviously you would need to know ALOT about them to understand their subtle gestures and body language. Some are much easier to pick than others. Some animals, in my opinion, have base commands or calls which can give someone the general idea.
If you want to shapeshift into a type of animal and try to communicate with people, you can do whatever you want. Your own mind is in that form, so if you wanted... you could become a wolf, then go write in the sand for people to see it.
The chances are, unless you're finely in tune with that particular animal... Other animals of that species are going to notice something is wrong. You probably won't be doing all of the subtle gestures or acting exactly as that animal, for the simple reason that... you're not actually one.
Druids CAN speak to animals, through the 'Speak with Animals' Druid spell. But you'd need to cast it, and it would be just as with any other PnP spell on Amia. Unfortunately, the spell won't work whilst you're in the shape of an animal.
^Read it and live by it my fellow Druids.
You can -not- speak animal because there is no such thing in D&D or in real life. You don't see a crow and a rat chatting it up on the streets right? Right, because they -can't- understand each others noises or gestures. They only know when it's time to fight or run in regard to the other. That's it. You can't speak canine, wolf, dog, lion, panther, liger, crow, sheep, goat, bear, deer, or chinchilla, sorry. Just like animals don't posses the vocal chords to speak our tongues, we don't posses the vocal chords to properly mimic most animal noises/calls/etc.
I'll admit it, I used to do it. I didn't know exactly how the "Speak to Animals" spell worked though. I thought the magic changed what you said into whatever animal your talking to's vocal noises/calls/etc. but that is not so. The spell magically allows the animals around you to understand any language you're talking (Common, Druidic, Hin, Sylvan, Elven, Dwarven, Gnomish, whatever.). Likewise, the spell allows you to magically understand any and all animals.
Divination Level: Brd 3, Drd 1, Rgr 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level
You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.
Hahah, that might've been me. If the shark was swimming around a tiny pond, that is. We had to put the poor animal out of its misery.
Following up on that, yeah.. the animal mind as we should assume it to be.. is full of instinctual emotions and imagery. Certainly no sentences. People often shoot for the quick success. They'd rather be a dog that gives a snappy reply than be a dog that can only express itself to a Druid or a Ranger, and even then, where the Druid has to solve the little riddle of comprehension first before he can communicate that to other humanoids. I haven't been always innocent of this either, but it's something to work towards.
Ruce has it spot on. Animals have totally different ways of thinking about things.
If anyone's interested in wolves, an awesome set of books to pick up ideas from is David Eddings' The Belgariad/Mallorean. They shapeshift into wolves, meet a few, and it gives you a nice look into the mind of how a wolf could think.
Another thing I remember is in the Eragon series. He touches minds with a bunch of animals repeatedly throughout the book, and you can see that different animals have different types of thoughts.
_________________ Aravain, Champion of Song. Anar, a dark elf. Giovanni, Blood Knight.
The best druids and rangers are the ones who completely fabricate what an animal thinks and feels and sells it to the other PCs/players as absolute fact, right or wrong. This is one of the privileges of being an "expert" in the subject.
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
If you want a character who is an expert on a certain animal, it's probably best you pick an animal you know a lot about or know at least a decent amount about so that the RP with said animals isn't dull, boring and, essentially, a complete fabrication. I've lived with canines all my life, I love them and know tons about them. Especially domestic breeds and wolves. So, it was a pretty easy choice to have both my Hin, more so Willow, be extremely close to canines. It makes it fun and involved instead of a bunch of rolls and emotes like "::does something a wolf would find as a sign of peace::". That's just my two cents though. I just think it's funner for both the person playing the character and anyone else involved to be able to go into detail and actually know what you're talking about with a given animal.
This works, unless the other player has no idea about what a wolf would find intimidating/acceptable. Recently I've been really spelling it out for people in my emotes, just because I wouldn't expect them to know everything there is to know about Wolves and their habits and interactions. ^^
If you kinda do something, then explain what effect it has on any normal random wolf, they can then choose to RP along with that idea, or they can take it their own way instead.
_________________ Aravain, Champion of Song. Anar, a dark elf. Giovanni, Blood Knight.
If anyone's interested in wolves, an awesome set of books to pick up ideas from is David Eddings' The Belgariad/Mallorean. They shapeshift into wolves, meet a few, and it gives you a nice look into the mind of how a wolf could think.
other consideration are the sections involving Perrin and the Wolves in the Wheel of Time universe/story. Very good, I liked the way the wolves have names which are actual entire descriptive scenes - example Running Through Autumn Leaves is not just that, but also the sensation of the leaves, the colours of them as they're kicked up in the light etc etc
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
For example, if a shifter takes the form of a wolf, they can communicate with wolves and dire wolves without using "Speak with Animals," but they can't communicate with...say, a panther while they're a wolf. However, if the shifter then turned into a panther, they could speak with the panther, but no longer communicate with the wolves.
As I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's been said (or agreed to at least) by several DMs when I've asked.
Regarding Druidic, as far as I know, it is not in any way a language like, say english, in that it has a rather limited vocabulary, and would only be used for rather simple conversations or urgent manner, as well as rituals. It fits very well when two druids dicuss a problem in the forest, but discussing Montisque in druidic would be rather hopeless.
As for animal, as it has been said, animal is not a language. Different animals communicate in different manners, and a crow and a wolf would not understand eachother aside from threats, and in any case, Animal is -not- a language you can hold a, from human perspective, a meaningfull conversation in.
_________________ "Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
QPR wrote:
Regarding Druidic, as far as I know, it is not in any way a language like, say english, in that it has a rather limited vocabulary, and would only be used for rather simple conversations or urgent manner, as well as rituals. It fits very well when two druids dicuss a problem in the forest, but discussing Montisque in druidic would be rather hopeless.
As for animal, as it has been said, animal is not a language. Different animals communicate in different manners, and a crow and a wolf would not understand eachother aside from threats, and in any case, Animal is -not- a language you can hold a, from human perspective, a meaningfull conversation in.
Source? I fail to see why druidic wouldn't function fully well as a language.
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My source is an old Druids Handbook, which might not be FR, and I dont have a link to the site, only the text on a closed forum. Here goes:
The Secret Language
All druids can speak a secret language in addition to other tongues they know. Using the optional proficiency system, the secret language does not require a proficiency slot.
The secret language of the druids has its roots in British tradition. A language called Thari, derived from Celtic roots, apparently was spoken as a secret tongue throughout the British Isles by a small number of traveling folk such as tinkers and bards. It later was adopted by some Gypsy clans in addition to Romany, their own Indic language. Thari may predate the Dark Ages, and some claim fluency in it even today. Certain researchers seeking the roots of Thari as a language distinct from Gaelic have linked its origins to both ancient Celtic craft guilds and to the historical druids. If the DM wants to name the druids' secret language, Thari possesses some historical relevance.
Not only can druids use the secret language to provide passwords, they can speak this private tongue when they wish to baffle nondruidic eavesdroppers. It is a precise tool for discussing Nature; a druid can say "dense, old-growth pine forest" in one word rather than a whole phrase.
The secret language has a specialized and detailed vocabulary limited to dealing with Nature and natural events; beyond this sphere, it is very basic. A druid could use the secret language to talk about the health of a person, animal, or plant; discuss the weather; or give detailed directions through the wilderness. The language also can describe druidic spells, ceremonies, powers, and any natural and supernatural creatures known to the druids. However, it contains no words for sophisticated human emotions, for most tools or artifacts (beyond those used for hunting, farming, or fishing), or for weapons and armor (other than items druids use). The language also contains few words that refer to concepts peculiar to sentient beings, like property, justice, theft, or war. Tense distinctions blur in this secret tongue; usually the concepts druids express bear a certain immediacy or timelessness.
Finally, the secret language of the druids remains a purely spoken tongue. A few simple runes or marks (symbolizing danger, safe water, safe trail, and so on) exist for marking paths and leaving messages, but the language cannot communicate actual sentences and complex ideas in writing.
Here's an example of how the secret language works in practice. Suppose two druids are discussing a magical item and want to converse entirely in the secret language, using no words borrowed from other tongues. One druid wishes to say:
This magical long sword was a gift to Melinda, wife to King Rupert, from Rupert's court wizard Drufus. The mage gave it the power to throw lightning bolts. But then King Rupert grew jealous of Melinda. He had her executed and took the blade for himself. After Rupert died, the sword was left buried in the dungeons under his castle.
In the secret language, the story might come out something like this:
This magic scimitar was for the Tall Golden Female, mate of the Man-Leader, from the Wielder of Magic from the Vale of the White Eagles. He put the call lightning power in it. But the Man-Leader wanted it. He killed the Tall Golden Female and took it for himself. He died. The scimitar stayed in the cave under his big stone man-den.
See the difference? There's no word for long sword, so our druid has substituted "scimitar." (All druidic weapons have names.) The idea of a gift is described in more basic terms. In addition, the concept of naming has no place in this Nature-oriented language; people and creatures are known by description, status, or place of origin.
Wizard becomes the more generic "wielder of magic." Lightning, a natural phenomenon, has an equivalent in the secret language. But the secret language cannot convey a human emotion such as Rupert's jealousy, so the druid has had to substitute less precise phrasing. Similarly, the private tongue does not cover execution or murder, so the druid used the more generic "killed." Finally, no druidic term corresponds to dungeon or castle, so the druid has had to use other words—"cave under his big stone man-den"--to convey that image. Of course, a druid not worried about being overheard might mix the secret language and normal speech in a single sentence.
The secret language helps bind the worldwide druidic order together. Druids from different circles (See Chapter 3: The Druidic Order) or branches all speak the same secret language. However, they may have developed their own regional accents or dialects. These could enable a listener to identify the region the druid comes from, or provide a clue to the speaker's branch.
In a Spelljammer® or Planescape® campaign and through the use of certain spells and magical items, druids from different worlds can meet. The DM should decide whether their secret languages resemble each other enough to allow communication.
Finally, the druid's secret language, while private, is not supernatural--theoretically, others can learn it. However, because the tongue provides druids with code phrases or passwords, they simply will not teach it to nondruids. The great druid of the region will punish any who break with this tradition.
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Even though I cant guarantee for its relation to FR, it does make sense in my oppinion. But hey, Im not a DM.
_________________ "Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
The only polymorphed animal form I know of (loosely animal) that can speak but you probably wouldn't expect it to, is Umberhulk.
I've had to explain it a number of times with my Sorcerer using polymorph.
But generally this is the rule: If the form does not have the vocal cord anatomy for complexe laungistics, it can't speak.
EDIT: Also, Umberhulks have an int score of 11 at base HD (not epic). Never did understand why they are too stupid to open doors in the Ilithlid lair. They have a higher average int than humans.
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
Drannok wrote:
Just throwing this tidbit out there:The only polymorphed animal form I know of (loosely animal) that can speak but you probably wouldn't expect it to, is Umberhulk.
Umber Hulks aren't animals, they're aberrations. Aberrations are very much so nothing like animals and are actually something Druids try to destroy along with Undead.
Anade_Evriana wrote:
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
Can a DM confirm or deny this? I've never heard this before.
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
Can a DM confirm or deny this? I've never heard this before.
I think thats wrong, how can you communicate without knowing thier language, and I dont think the DM would say you can IC know languages you never learned.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
For example, if a shifter takes the form of a wolf, they can communicate with wolves and dire wolves without using "Speak with Animals," but they can't communicate with...say, a panther while they're a wolf. However, if the shifter then turned into a panther, they could speak with the panther, but no longer communicate with the wolves.
As I said, I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's been said (or agreed to at least) by several DMs when I've asked.
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. I think the point might have been the complete opposite, that Shifters can not talk with other animals whilst shifted. DM's?
_________________ Aravain, Champion of Song. Anar, a dark elf. Giovanni, Blood Knight.
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
Can a DM confirm or deny this? I've never heard this before.
I think thats wrong, how can you communicate without knowing thier language, and I dont think the DM would say you can IC know languages you never learned.
Animals don't really have language, that's sort of the point of this. They can communicate with each other. They don't truly 'speak' to each other.
On this topic, it has been said (by several DMs that I've talked to though I can't remember specific names now) that shifters (note: SHIFTERS, not druids) can communicate with animals of the same type they're shifted into.
Can a DM confirm or deny this? I've never heard this before.
I think thats wrong, how can you communicate without knowing thier language, and I dont think the DM would say you can IC know languages you never learned.
I am not familiar with this 'rule'.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
To clear up some things I commonly see- - Animal is not a language. - Wolf is not a language. - Druidic is a language that is highly secret, taught from one Druid to another, and never EVER shared with anyone who is not a Druid. (Not even trusted Rangers) - Wolves that are cuddly and cute and soft are probably not going to be looked upon nicely by other wolves.
Here's my opinion on how this all works:
All animals can communicate. Obviously you would need to know ALOT about them to understand their subtle gestures and body language. Some are much easier to pick than others. Some animals, in my opinion, have base commands or calls which can give someone the general idea.
If you want to shapeshift into a type of animal and try to communicate with people, you can do whatever you want. Your own mind is in that form, so if you wanted... you could become a wolf, then go write in the sand for people to see it.
The chances are, unless you're finely in tune with that particular animal... Other animals of that species are going to notice something is wrong. You probably won't be doing all of the subtle gestures or acting exactly as that animal, for the simple reason that... you're not actually one.
Druids CAN speak to animals, through the 'Speak with Animals' Druid spell. But you'd need to cast it, and it would be just as with any other PnP spell on Amia. Unfortunately, the spell won't work whilst you're in the shape of an animal.
This is what I said earlier.
But yeah, of course Shifters can 'communicate' with animals. In the same way anyone else would. It's just never going to be as efficient as the Druid spell. Which most Shifters should have after being level 5 Druid also? XD
_________________ Aravain, Champion of Song. Anar, a dark elf. Giovanni, Blood Knight.
anyone can communicate with animals in terms of actions or try and read the animals, you dont need anyclass for that, and also I dont think IC anyclass would just give it too you, logic works for alot of things.
*you see a wolf with his lower jaw pushed infront of his top with lip curled back, making throat noises with silvia driping from his mouth and eyes wide open*
it does not take a druid or a shifter as a class to tell that the wolf thinks your a threat, anyone could try and show non-hostile actions like backing up or lowering your self talking in a slow low voice...ect
but I could be wrong and the wolf is smiling trying to say hello and is drooling and its just plane cute.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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