I mean, everything that bypasses SR that immobilizes should be given a save. Everything.
I don't have a single ability that bypasses SR -and- has no save or else you're basically out of the fight. The only one I have that has no save is Searing Light, which doesn't disable, doesn't bypass SR, and doesn't do much without epic spell focus (and arguably Maximize Spell).
I don't agree that -any- ability -ever- should have no save and not check SR, and just fuck you over. I don't even think Hellball should have a saveless KD, in the Spell Changes Discussion thread.
I'm not saying it has to have NO gimmick, but you can't just have an instant win like that with no save. Even terrifying rage, as badly balanced as it is, has a save.
Will save DC 10 + CL seems decent. For all I know the save might not even add spellcraft because it's a monster ability. So that is a tough save to make for a dedicated caster's familiar.
I'm not saying it has to have NO gimmick, but you can't just have an instant win like that with no save. 1) Even terrifying rage, as badly balanced as it is, has a save.
Will save DC 10 + CL seems decent. For all I know the save might not even add spellcraft because it's a monster ability. So that is a tough save to make for a dedicated caster's familiar.
I don't really agree with nerfing it, but at the same time, offsetting the recent spell buffs by revisiting things like the eyeball or the fairy dragon special attacks is probably something that should be considered. I should throw out a bit of a forewarning on doing so, though, and that is that there will be quite a few people who will inevitably take a select few familiars in favor of picking one for "rp flavor," at least until all of them get a total rebalance(should such a day come).
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
So each time there's a PvP you loose we're gonna change stuff, Lichy?
Just asking as I've noticed it became a sort of a trend lately.
Anything used in a right time can be fatal and there are quite a few things that are unavoidable and fight-winning if the timing is right. Calling "unfair" on fairy dragon is just , considering, for example, the abuse we had with a certain character and his "save vs. skill" rage abuse. Just can't remember who it was right now... or can I
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
So each time there's a PvP you loose we're gonna change stuff, Lichy?
Just asking as I've noticed it became a sort of a trend lately.
Anything used in a right time can be fatal and there are quite a few things that are unavoidable and fight-winning if the timing is right. Calling "unfair" on fairy dragon is just , considering, for example, the abuse we had with a certain character and his "save vs. skill" rage abuse. Just can't remember who it was right now... or can I
There's a huge disconnect between what you're saying and the reality of the situation.
A no save no sr confuse is horseshit. If you know of other things that are no save no sr and you die let me know.
Save vs skill is also bullshit as it's trivial to get +60 to a skill, meaning it's going to work 95% of the time.
The game also needs to be balanced around pvp. Because when pve drives plots the balance doesn't matter too much, neither does level. But when a plot involves pvp, yes, un-resistable "you lose" buttons are bullshit.
Also yes, it is becoming a trend. Because the server is improving. I hope the trend continues.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
There's still a touch attack to be made for a sucessful confusion. Even if we consider the scenario that the touch attack is so huge that only 20 roll would counter it (and it's not), then it's also 95%.
So tell me the difference between rage that's 20 roll on will or death, and bolt that's either 20 roll to dodge the RT or death. There's none, with the exception that, for example, concealment applies when countering touch attack. So it's even harded to land a sucessful blow with the bolt.
With rage you just press the button and hope no one rolls 20.
Commie wrote:
If you know of other things that are no save no sr and you die let me know.
There are such things. You just need to look harder.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
There's still a touch attack to be made for a sucessful confusion. Even if we consider the scenario that the touch attack is so huge that only 20 roll would counter it (and it's not), then it's also 95%.
So tell me the difference between rage that's 20 roll on will or death, and bolt that's either 20 roll to dodge the RT or death. There's none, with the exception that, for example, concealment applies when countering touch attack. So it's even harded to land a sucessful blow with the bolt.
With rage you just press the button and hope no one rolls 20.
Commie wrote:
If you know of other things that are no save no sr and you die let me know.
There are such things. You just need to look harder.
because you can get your saves to +30 easily?
also please tell me what's no save no sr.
someone else tell me what's no save no sr guaranteed pvp win.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Commie wrote:
because you can get your saves to +30 easily?
Hate to sink your ship, but so what? The rage calculates from intimidate skill, which is EASY to boost to 50 / 60. Not easy, trivial.
Fact is - rage is way, way more game breaking than the bolt for many reasons. But there is no discussion about it. I know why, the OP prolly knows why too ( ).
Promised myself to stay away from useless threads and look at me, failing myself again. F*ck!
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Hate to sink your ship, but so what? The rage calculates from intimidate skill, which is EASY to boost to 50 / 60. Not easy, trivial.
Fact is - rage is way, way more game breaking than the bolt for many reasons. But there is no discussion about it. I know why, the OP prolly knows why too ( ).
terrifying rage? the thing that takes skill investment AND epic class investment AND build investment AND gear investment due to mythals for intimidate AND is countered by fear immunity items? compared to "oh i picked fey dragon."
that's why there's no discussion about it. because it's a whole different ballpark.
people are talking about it. and you're in there talking about it. and a dm is in there talking about it too!
it's just not in yet. they are doing spells first because spells are a huge part of the server and there might be a total of 3/4 t. rage barbs running around atm.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Haha, and how many fairy dragons are around? And the bolt cannot be countered by mind immunity potion which is being sold by basically everyone? And have you seen touch attack mod. done by familiar of a non-epic spellcaster?
Different ballpark . I'm out, this is a total waste of time.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Both of these should be fixed for the improving health of the server, not just ignored because the other one hasn't been discussed yet. 10+CL vs Will is a rather high save. Most people don't even have 30 will, giving it a 50+% chance of affecting people. And I haven't even had glitter dropped into my eyes yet!
Haha, and how many fairy dragons are around? And the bolt cannot be countered by mind immunity potion which is being sold by basically everyone?
so can the fear. which is also beat by fear immune items that require 0 work to equip and some pc's literally just give you because they have multiples. and t.rage at least it has some kind of save. oh and the dm's are working on giving it a normal class-ability style save.
also unlike t. rage barbs, basically anyone with a fey dragon is going to have disjoint, and will just strip your blank off and mez you. no save no sr then! barbs wanna do that then they need MORE class investment and skill point investment AND gold investment.
like, what's the deal here? is the argument that "this one thing is imbalanced so don't change other shit let it be imba too?" because that's honestly the vibe im getting from you.
Guardian wrote:
Different ballpark . I'm out, this is a total waste of time.
Both of these should be fixed for the improving health of the server, not just ignored because the other one hasn't been discussed yet. 10+CL vs Will is a rather high save. Most people don't even have 30 will, giving it a 50+% chance of affecting people. And I haven't even had glitter dropped into my eyes yet!
yeah but you can gear high will at least. feats and gear exist for it. some builds also naturally hit 35+ will with just wisdom gear on.
Yep, the rare moment I ever get into a PvP situation being one of the very few with a faerie dragon and this topic comes up.
Anyway, it's a pretty useless familiar in a pve situation... but we seem to be opting to make changes based on every PvP encounter. In that case, if the confusion bolt will be weakened I suggest giving the faerie dragon an extra something to balance its other weaknesses.
Otherwise, those gimmicks are what makes the faerie dragon and beholder. IMO. Easily counter-able with mind blank, high dexterity and improved invisibility. You could also hide in plain sight and completely avoid it with hit and hide tactics. (It has low listen and spot). Or completely kill it since it has low HP and AC.
_________________ Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Commie wrote:
Guardian wrote:
Commie wrote:
because you can get your saves to +30 easily?
Hate to sink your ship, but so what? The rage calculates from intimidate skill, which is EASY to boost to 50 / 60. Not easy, trivial.
Fact is - rage is way, way more game breaking than the bolt for many reasons. But there is no discussion about it. I know why, the OP prolly knows why too ( ).
terrifying rage? the thing that takes skill investment AND epic class investment AND build investment AND gear investment due to mythals for intimidate AND is countered by fear immunity items? compared to "oh i picked fey dragon."
that's why there's no discussion about it. because it's a whole different ballpark.
people are talking about it. and you're in there talking about it. and a dm is in there talking about it too!
it's just not in yet. they are doing spells first because spells are a huge part of the server and there might be a total of 3/4 t. rage barbs running around atm.
Rage: Terrifying Rage takes Epic Barbarian (1), Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus (2 and 3), plus gear (4) and Attributes buff skills (5).
From what I can see, five things boost Terrifying Rage. Which means you can easily max out Intimidate IG, while making some sacrifices, in order to be the best Barbarian. But the Faerie Famillar? It takes simply Epic Sorcerer or Wizard, and the bolt can't get any more powerful once it is level 30. In addition, it can't bypass Mindblank. Which means Terrifying Rage has a rather more powerful use. More investment? Sure. But fighting a Barbarian is a lot harder than this Faerie famillar. Considering all you need to do is pop a Mindblank, which should be your first course of action in pvp against a Wizard / Sorcerer. They don't have a way to increase their rather weak Famillar, Faerie or Eyeball, more than what it is. So I don't think it really needs to be adjusted, unless like Elyon said, there is a big balance to make it somewhat better. This one gimmick is all it has, and it is very easy to counter.
Commie wrote:
Guardian wrote:
Haha, and how many fairy dragons are around? And the bolt cannot be countered by mind immunity potion which is being sold by basically everyone?
so can the fear. which is also beat by fear immune items that require 0 work to equip and some pc's literally just give you because they have multiples. and t.rage at least it has some kind of save. oh and the dm's are working on giving it a normal class-ability style save.
also unlike t. rage barbs, basically anyone with a fey dragon is going to have disjoint, and will just strip your blank off and mez you. no save no sr then! barbs wanna do that then they need MORE class investment and skill point investment AND gold investment.
like, what's the deal here? is the argument that "this one thing is imbalanced so don't change other shit let it be imba too?" because that's honestly the vibe im getting from you.
Guardian wrote:
Different ballpark . I'm out, this is a total waste of time.
ok. goodbye.
Firstly, speaking of "gold investment". You said you can get Will gear in the game. Oh wow, more gold investment.
Rage and the Faerie's bolt can be countered easily, it isn't about "balancing" it. How can you balance something that is so easy to counter? It is about the character's (not players) ignorance towards the two. If a character, prepared to engage in combat, forgets a crucial defense weapon against either or, then it is their fault. The character that loses to either a Barbarian or the Faerie famillar will learn next time to either A) not fight that individual, or B) prepare yourself against such. Each build has their own powerful fighting ability.
- Paladins with a lot of Charisma and multiple great smite feats can do overwhelming damage to an evil character, and vise versa.
- Shifters can turn into Immune to Critical / Sneak attacks, Dragons immune to X Damage (Fire / Acid / Electrical), a Wraith that gives them HiPS, and a Kobold, so you just have to put Hide / Move Silent Skills. Mind Flayer form that does KD.
- Barb, if focused in Taunt, can lower your AC with Taunt + Curse Song, making you easier to kill.
- Dex-Weapon masters have very high AC / and AB, unlike their counter part Str, who only get AB.
- Wizards (Depending on school focus) get high DC spells, which is game over if you're unprepared. Or they get a lot of summons, and can just GS and dispell. They can also stack Evocation spells for DPS.
- Druid with maximum Wisdom for Dragonshape, +EDK, +Badger = one HELL of a fight.
All of these take class dedication, and e.t.c. as listed above. Should some of them be fixed? I don't believe so, no. All "Great" powerss in the game require the same thing, dedication. Some are a lot harder to counter, if there is one, then others. But isn't that what the system was designed for? If you dedicate yourself (as a character) to a certain pathway, you would be rewarded with a better grasp of such field. Now if this Faerie dragon could do such, or Barbarian, e.t.c, at a low level, then yes I agree it is "OP" and needs to be improved.
_________________
Auri: Champion of Bahamut
Last edited by LibrisMortis_666 on Thu, Aug 18 2016, 14:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Rage: Terrifying Rage takes Epic Barbarian (1), Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus (2 and 3), plus gear (4) and Attributes buff skills (5).
This is not accurate. You need 21 character levels, only 16 need be Barbarian (15 for greater rage, and 1 more level to take terrarage) and you need intimidate 25. The rest are to add to the skill.
Taking 33 points in intimidate and adding some gear, you can easily hit 50 or more intimidate without needing extra feats to do so.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Roach wrote:
Just for clarity sake:
Quote:
Rage: Terrifying Rage takes Epic Barbarian (1), Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus (2 and 3), plus gear (4) and Attributes buff skills (5).
This is not accurate. You need 21 character levels, only 16 need be Barbarian (15 for greater rage, and 1 more level to take terrarage) and you need intimidate 25. The rest are to add to the skill.
Taking 33 points in intimidate and adding some gear, you can easily hit 50 or more intimidate without needing extra feats to do so.
I didn't mean to get Terrifying Rage, I meant to improve the Fear. You can get Gear, Skill Feats, e.t.c to improve the Intimidate skill.
Rage: Terrifying Rage takes Epic Barbarian (1), Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus (2 and 3), plus gear (4) and Attributes buff skills (5).
This is not accurate. You need 21 character levels, only 16 need be Barbarian (15 for greater rage, and 1 more level to take terrarage) and you need intimidate 25. The rest are to add to the skill.
Taking 33 points in intimidate and adding some gear, you can easily hit 50 or more intimidate without needing extra feats to do so.
I didn't mean to get Terrifying Rage, I meant to improve the Fear. You can get Gear, Skill Feats, e.t.c to improve the Intimidate skill.
True, but... in equal defense, the familar can receive a few buffs too. Perhaps not the same, but... it -can- be improved over the standard. Just playing devil's advocate.
That said, I think Terrarage and this thing should be looked at by the team.
Firstly, speaking of "gold investment". You said you can get Will gear in the game. Oh wow, more gold investment.
Fey bolt has no save and no sr. You can't boost your will and be better defended against it.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Rage and the Faerie's bolt can be countered easily, it isn't about "balancing" it. How can you balance something that is so easy to counter?
Because the necessity of perma-mindblanks the server already cultivates is stupid as fuck. Not only that, it's on the breach list; Mordie (which any sorc/wiz has), fey bolt, dead.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Paladins with a lot of Charisma and multiple great smite feats can do overwhelming damage to an evil character, and vise versa.
Alingment based, rolled against actual ac not touch ac, doesn't ignore evasion feats like epic dodge, requires multiple epic feats.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Shifters can turn into Immune to Critical / Sneak attacks, Dragons immune to X Damage (Fire / Acid / Electrical), a Wraith that gives them HiPS, and a Kobold, so you just have to put Hide / Move Silent Skills. Mind Flayer form that does KD.
All shifter forms but d shape are instant killed by gear available to anyone. That's the downside. Dragon shape requires like 6 epic feats as well so it's hardly comparable. Ilithid mind blast also has a WILL SAVE.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Barb, if focused in Taunt, can lower your AC with Taunt + Curse Song, making you easier to kill.
Skill and class investment. Bards (which i assume you meant instead of barb) also arn't full bab so their base ab tends to be 4 or 5 lower then full bab classes. Curse song is not just an instant get fucked that required 0 investment.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Dex-Weapon masters have very high AC / and AB, unlike their counter part Str, who only get AB.
And damage. Don't forget the actual thing they get over dexers. Doing good damage is pretty good for fighting stuff. So is the chance to kd on a crit, which is likely when you are critting on a 10 or up.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Wizards (Depending on school focus) get high DC spells, which is game over if you're unprepared. Or they get a lot of summons, and can just GS and dispell. They can also stack Evocation spells for DPS.
Yeah and those spells generally have saves or allow spell resistance. So you get a chance.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
- Druid with maximum Wisdom for Dragonshape, +EDK, +Badger = one HELL of a fight.
6 epic feats. 5 great wisdoms and dragon shape. It had better be hell to fight.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
All of these take class dedication, and e.t.c. as listed above. Should some of them be fixed? I don't believe so, no. All "Great" powerss in the game require the same thing, dedication. Some are a lot harder to counter, if there is one, then others. But isn't that what the system was designed for? If you dedicate yourself (as a character) to a certain pathway, you would be rewarded with a better grasp of such field. Now if this Faerie dragon could do such, or Barbarian, e.t.c, at a low level, then yes I agree it is "OP" and needs to be improved.
None should be fixed but fey dragon bolt which is a no save no sr no class investment "confuse" bolt that there's honestly nothing you can really do about because the only viable defense is on the breach list.
Here's the ability since you seem to be confused.
Quote:
Range: medium (20 meters) Save: none Spell resistance: no Descriptor: mind-affecting Area of effect: single Duration: instantaneous
Description: If the caster succeeds with a ranged touch attack, a confusion bolt causes the target to become confused for (level/2) rounds, rounded up.
I legitimately don't understand how people can be in support of no save no sr cc. I don't understand how you think dragon shape (requiring all epic feats or all epic feats but one) is legitimately comparable to a familiar skill.
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
I hate to interrupt the discussion, but after looking up I'd like to shoot the daily reminder to drop the terrifying rage versus bolt discussion because:
1. It's apples and oranges 2. If these're the same confusion bolts we had on our familiars back on Arelith, they don't roll a mind save, therefore never establishing a check against Clarity, and therefore they bypass mind protection. Clarity still blocks terrifying rage completely.
Just- you know. Putting that out there.
_________________
*So, i've got a question for ya. *do you think even the worst person can change…? *that everyone can be a good person, if they just try? *all right. *well, here's a better question *do you wanna have a bad time
Terrirage is not part of this discussion. Keep the threads separate. That's one of the main rules of IA: One item per thread, and don't derail threads in the forum in general.
Anywho, no, a no-SR no-save no-mind-immunity ability is not balanced. I would've made this thread sooner if I had known it even existed, it's not just because Rosary used it on me in pvp. I was actually laughing and I was goodnatured when it happened, at the time. I thought it was funny I fucked up so badly that I got taken out by a familiar in like round 2 of combat.
But it still stands that there's literally no way to resist the ability.
This is clearly unbalanced.
Add a save of some kind and it's kosher in my eyes.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Field - tested it and mind immunity counters the bolt's effect.
Got hit by third attack, the previous two I've dodged with mediocre / below average half-ass dexer.
Oh, the OPsness
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Context was - it bypass mind immunity.
Result is - it does not.
Lvl 3 sorc vs. lvl 3 rogue. Used mind blank pot. No screenshots, if you want pictures draw them yourself.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
please learn how the game works before you comment further on this issue as you clearly lack understanding of what's happening when one character attacks another.
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
MisterLich wrote:
Dude.
Drop the attitude.
Hate to say it but like. Lich is right tho.
This entire thread is cancer. We're attempting to discuss the balance of placing a strong ass gimmick on an otherwise bad summon as an excuse for not keeping all the familiars 'up to par' with one another -- which, in my opinion, is a legitimate issue that requires addressing; as much for the sake of those whom would be effected (in PvP, which is honest to god the only place this will be used ever) as for the sake of the caster (in PvM, where anyone who RPly doesn't want to walk around with the glorious Skeleton familiar master race gets gimped).
Wether or not I was wrong (which, to be fair, I said I might be -- since Arelith doesn't have hacks), wether or not the ability is 'actually' OP, and indeed wether or not this is just a spite thread resultant from the loss of a PvP is 'literally' irrelevant; and ultimately this comes down to wether the Developers consider any of this information relevant.
Nobody's attacking anybody and all y'all need jesus -- we're all capable of better than acting Arelith tier. Let's keep the discussion purely to mechanics the developers can actually use please?
_________________
*So, i've got a question for ya. *do you think even the worst person can change…? *that everyone can be a good person, if they just try? *all right. *well, here's a better question *do you wanna have a bad time
I don't really agree with changing either the Eyeball or the Faerie Dragon. They are very poor familiars outside of their one or two gimmicks.
Game winning gimmick.
It has to roll to hit and it's AB is trash, even taking into account the AC it ignores. That's their checks. Hell, there's 4+ save or screwed level 1 spells. Having more than 1 check for any mechanic is pretty overkill.
Just because someone loses a PvP fight doesn't mean "Z0MG WE HAVE TO NERF IT BECAUSE SOMEONE SOMEWHERE LOST TO IT!"
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
Fey Dragon bolt AB is calculated as bab + dex + weapon AB + effects.
So you're looking at full bab (as iirc it has the 'dragon' class) so that's huge, plus it's dex, plus 4 or 5, plus whatever spells you put on it.
I think your math is off.
The Faerie Dragon has an unbuffed Dex Mod of +0. It's natural weapon is it's bite which starts with no enhancement and only gets to +5 enhancement at level 30. I don't know what AB boosting spells a Wizard/Sorc has since that's usually the realm of Divine casters, but it's Touch Attack AB is likely going to be between 25-30.
Also, I don't think touch attacks remove your base AC of 10, they just discount armor/shield/natural. So it's 10 +Dex + Defl +Dodge + Tumble. A Dexterity based PC is 10+14+5+5+6= 40 at least discounting other sources of Dodge AC.
It's no sure thing at all you'll get hit by it.
Edit: Actually my math may also be off since I forgot to take into account the Familiar script. That's going to add about 10 AB assuming it affects Touch Attacks. I'm just not sure if it does.
_________________ Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder
I don't really agree with changing either the Eyeball or the Faerie Dragon. They are very poor familiars outside of their one or two gimmicks.
Game winning gimmick.
It has to roll to hit and it's AB is trash, even taking into account the AC it ignores. That's their checks. Hell, there's 4+ save or screwed level 1 spells. Having more than 1 check for any mechanic is pretty overkill.
Just because someone loses a PvP fight doesn't mean "Z0MG WE HAVE TO NERF IT BECAUSE SOMEONE SOMEWHERE LOST TO IT!"
what level 1 spells are save or screwed? please name the 4+
I don't really agree with changing either the Eyeball or the Faerie Dragon. They are very poor familiars outside of their one or two gimmicks.
Game winning gimmick.
It has to roll to hit and it's AB is trash, even taking into account the AC it ignores. That's their checks. Hell, there's 4+ save or screwed level 1 spells. Having more than 1 check for any mechanic is pretty overkill.
Just because someone loses a PvP fight doesn't mean "Z0MG WE HAVE TO NERF IT BECAUSE SOMEONE SOMEWHERE LOST TO IT!"
I don't have a screenshot, but I remember the touch attack having over 30 AB. For a ranged touch attack against an opponent who is, in most situations, flat footed to the familiar, that's fucking huge.
Also drop the whole "This is only being discussed because someone lost a pvp match". That's ad hominem and derailing the discussion, and you're a big boy, you can get your point across without resorting to such.
For the audience that thinks that touch attack invalidates the need for a save on abilities.
Can we please remove the saving throw on Harm, then?
Harm is not an instant win, unlike this ahility, even on a failed save - and like this ability, there are potions that make you mostly immune to Harm (or completely immune to this confusion bolt). Bubbly potions make you 50% immune to Harm. Harm is even worse in that it is a melee touch attack, meaning I put myself in melee range to use it. So, clearly, since the consensus from some of you is that touch attack = no save needed, let's remove the saving throw to Harm.
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, considering, for example, the abuse we had with a certain character and his "save vs. skill" rage abuse. Just can't remember who it was right now... or can I 
. I'm out, this is a total waste of time.
