So as everyone's probably about to see, a couple shifter forms got a lot of nerfs. These were for several reasons. I am going to touch on each of the nerfs and explain them. If you are a shifter affected by these nerfs, you are entitled to a free rebuild.
1: Knockdown Immunity was removed from the Stone golem form. This was far too strong for any form to have, let alone one as defensively powerhousing as the Stone golem. In tandem with the other options available to it, this form was rendered functionally invincible. The form could barely be hurt, and could not be knocked down, critical hit, or disabled.
2: The Stone Golem had DR 10/+6, making it unbypassable by any weapon in the server except monks with +6 gloves. This would normally be a nice nod to glove monks, except for the following reason, which is part and parcel with the above nerfs to Stone golem in general, bringing it in line... The form now has 10/+5 DR, giving it the equivalent of permanent stoneskin. Greater Stoneksin and Premonition are still better, so high level DR spells still have an effect on the form.
3: Stone Golem was 50% immune to Slashing and Bludgeoning Damage, but only 10% weak to Piercing. This meant that the only form of damage that could reasonably hurt a Stone Golem (+6 glove using monks) was already having 50% of their damage hacked off before even counting in things like golem immunities, item damage resistance, elemental damage resistance, and the like. The damage reduction has been reduced to 10/+5 each to bring it more in line with Risen Lord, which, while 50% resistance is also 50% weak.
4: Risen Lord has had its damage reduction reduced from 10/+6 to 10/+5 for the same reasons as Stone Golem.
5: Iron Golem has had Ki Critical and Weapon of Choice removed from it. The shifter is meant to be a jack of all trades, and gaining Weaponmaster feats for free is not in the purview of a class that should be a B to a B+ in its class role, not receiving feats that other character sink 13 dex 13 int and a lot of feats into pre reqs to get. There's no compensation for this: the Iron Golem is already the most offensively oriented form on the server.
6: Drider has lost its WM feats as well, for consistency reasons. Not much else to say here: It's still an x3 crit.
7: Epic Gargoyle used to have 25/+10 DR and 20/- to all physical damage. This has been reduced to 10/+6 and 10/- in all physical damages, giving them the only form with "irreducible" damage reduction, as befits the gargyole form, which has few other offensive options given to it.
~~~
Overall, these changes were done for a few simple reasons: All combined, the Stone and Iron Golem forms were immensely powerful, and combined with the Golem form's ability to drink Heal potions, unlike the Undead forms, combined with the mismatched ratio of damage resistance versus damage weakness, meant some forms were functionally invincible, and couldn't be disabled in any way shape or form. These changes should go a long way towards lowering the power of these forms and making other forms more attractive, or at least, lowering the immense power these two forms had that centralized all shifter power and progression along their use, minimalizing the challenge of content on the entire server, and turning PvP into a boring one sided slog.
Any shifters who request rebuilds due to this change should make their posts in the Rebuild forum along with a note in the toopic title that it has to do with Shifter changes, and we will endeavor to make this change as simple as possible. I'll leave this pot open for constructive discussion.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Yeah. I wondered why in the pvp tournament I was just attacking forever and just not doing any damage at all. 50% s/p immunity, immune to knock down, can use heal pots, insane dr, insane regen, haste on command, can't be crit, I had no idea wtf I was even fighting or what the hell anyone or anything could do TO fight it. Just stand there and not die the shape.
During the height of the arcanum plot the Phoenixes would lost tournaments and practice battles and training events, we'd get dozens of PCs to a side in intense war games. Invariably, it would always ended up with one of two golem-shifters as the last few standing, with a mob of 6+ PCs trying to get in enough damage to end the fight. It was pretty ridiculous, I'm glad to see it fixed.
1: Knockdown Immunity was removed from the Stone golem form. This was far too strong for any form to have, let alone one as defensively powerhousing as the Stone golem. In tandem with the other options available to it, this form was rendered functionally invincible. The form could barely be hurt, and could not be knocked down, critical hit, or disabled.
- I view this point as completely understandable and a much needed change.
2: The Stone Golem had DR 10/+6, making it unbypassable by any weapon in the server except monks with +6 gloves. This would normally be a nice nod to glove monks, except for the following reason, which is part and parcel with the above nerfs to Stone golem in general, bringing it in line... The form now has 10/+5 DR, giving it the equivalent of permanent stoneskin. Greater Stoneksin and Premonition are still better, so high level DR spells still have an effect on the form.
3: Stone Golem was 50% immune to Slashing and Bludgeoning Damage, but only 10% weak to Piercing. This meant that the only form of damage that could reasonably hurt a Stone Golem (+6 glove using monks) was already having 50% of their damage hacked off before even counting in things like golem immunities, item damage resistance, elemental damage resistance, and the like. The damage reduction has been reduced to 10/+5 each to bring it more in line with Risen Lord, which, while 50% resistance is also 50% weak.
- I do agree that Stone Golem did need some drastic changes in the way the damage resistance works. With the way it currently stands though, anyone with a +5 weapon (requestable, mage, cleric, paladin, ranger, druid) can completely bypass the entire function of the form. Assuming the person has a +5 weapon, and deals about 40 damage (physical) with the 10% immunes still dishes 36 damage. You might argue that with you can use a healing potion, and your a permanent haste bot, but any "tankiness" aspect the form had is now completely removed. If it's to bring it in line with the risen lord, I'm not entirely sure if the wisdom dump you need is on the same comparison to the benefits you gain. With subpar AB (35-40 maybe?) I can't see any other reason to choose this anymore except to spam haste on a group. The AC isn't anything to be impressed about either. (48-55) at least while running haste.
What now can you achieve from this form except mass haste and stonehold that Iron Golem won't beat it at?
4: Risen Lord has had its damage reduction reduced from 10/+6 to 10/+5 for the same reasons as Stone Golem.
- Look above, except you still gain a 50% immunity to slashing (afaik, I could be completely wrong about this.)
5: Iron Golem has had Ki Critical and Weapon of Choice removed from it. The shifter is meant to be a jack of all trades, and gaining Weaponmaster feats for free is not in the purview of a class that should be a B to a B+ in its class role, not receiving feats that other character sink 13 dex 13 int and a lot of feats into pre reqs to get. There's no compensation for this: the Iron Golem is already the most offensively oriented form on the server.
- My counter argument would be why would the Wraith still recieve hips, then? Multiple discussions have been made that this feat should be available to shadowdancers (and shifters?) only.You also generally recieve much more AB and AC, crippling strike (rogue only) if you have your dexterity stuff on. I get 56's (no haste) for AC and 47-49 AB (the latter including bless/aid) in wraith form.
Running in my full strength gear with bless/aid, I receive 47 AB iron golem. That's absolutely a fine number. I'm not overly concerned with the Ki Crit considering the absurd merging bonuses you can achieve with a weapon. Though, compared to wraith/iron now I'd pick wraith 9/10 of the times now. You just can't beat hips, crippling strike, and superior AC.
6: Drider has lost its WM feats as well, for consistency reasons. Not much else to say here: It's still an x3 crit.
- Not much to say here, who uses that form in reality. Even less so now.
7: Epic Gargoyle used to have 25/+10 DR and 20/- to all physical damage. This has been reduced to 10/+6 and 10/- in all physical damages, giving them the only form with "irreducible" damage reduction, as befits the gargyole form, which has few other offensive options given to it.
- No comment for above.
But if you desire to make other forms more appealing, there are a number of other things you can do to improve them. Like raising the caster level for offensive spells cast by the Rakasha for example. As it currently stands anyone with subpar spell resistance can completely negate any magic. The only thing going for it is the spell immunities. Similar with drow/drider/medusa/vampire/etc.
A lot more people are going to opt for the cliche shifter/monk route now, and just get undead form because the investments simply aren't worth it anymore. I play a shifter as my main, and while he certainly is a powerful character there are numerous ways to beat them. Any decent ranger can stomp a shifter regardless, a cleric with harm (heal if your UD!), Dexterity WM, certain Strength WM's, non stupid mages, druids (harm, heal, animal companion). Sure shifters were a good class, imbalanced in some situations, but by no means impossible. You just have to be smart, like pvp should be.
Undead form doesn't require any wisdom to take, but from what I'm seeing it's probably more powerful then golem now. All I'm deducing from this change is a shift in the meta to monk/shifter UD wraith spam.
AirPhforce wrote:
Undead also has drawbacks, and you also can't heal pot in undead form.
If you weigh the pros and cons, I still personally feel it's heavily weighted towards undead now. This post was written in full consideration that undead cannot drink healing potions. Is that con worth 2-3 epic feats into great wisdom though? I feel it is.
Last edited by TheCortroy on Thu, Mar 17 2016, 2:12 AM, edited 4 times in total.
Being able to heal pot and have 50% damage immunity to Slashing and Bludgeoning and have 10/+6 was absolutely not balanced out by a form that had a 10% weakness, sorry. Add in free mass haste, the rock for a no-AB needed ranged option, free spammable Stonehold, +4d10 mass crits, and golem immunities and KD immunity, it was ridiculous.
Vs. risen Lord - weakness to bludgeoning 50% instead of 10%, no built in haste, no immunity to Acid (much mor useful than 50% cold or 100% negative), can't healpot, no ranged attack option.
I'm open to killing Crippling Strike on the Wraith on the basis of that logic, sure (and instead adding it as a with-save STR drain to the claws, if it doesn't already have it). It's also a good argument for HIPS on the ground that Kobo-Commando still has it, but I am more inclined to keep it here.
I see no issue with +5 weapons bypassing DR, btw. I don't see why Shifters need to be the undisputed kings of tankiness while also having the versatility of being able to pick exactly want form and mode they want (forms and modes which wer eoftne better than PCs focused in those roles and classes), if that nigh-invincible tankiness isn't what's needed at the moment. No other class on the server has access to the percentage based immunities outside a specific Knight commander Aura.
Balance is, as always, an ongoing situation and some of these may potentially be revisited in the future as observation continues.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Stone golem was 50% Bludgeoning & Slashing Immunity, 10/+6 with a 10% Pierce, 10% Sonic weakness if I recall, not Slashing and Piercing like people have said in this thread as that was risenlords.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
- I do agree that Stone Golem did need some drastic changes in the way the damage resistance works.
Half the stuff I posted was in agreement of your changes. Your absolutely right that shifters shouldn't be the king of everything. Yet what's the point of having stone form if Stonehold = Freedom (who doesn't have that, really?). throwing rock = evasion (generally taken in any cookie cutter build) or a laughable amount of DR to circumvent. 4d10 mass crits? Good luck hitting them. Golem immunes, okay sure, pretty useless though if you can't have any form of retaliation. All you get is haste at the end of the day. More then half the server already has +5 available. Can't be a contender if you aren't even in the competition.
I'm getting a hostile vibe from your most recent post, sorry, but I'll excuse myself from this topic now.
At Stone Golem's inception, it was originally 50% weak to Piercing. No one wanted that because it's a fairly common creature damage type, and because of rapiers in PvP. But if you're not going to have as much of a weakness, you also shouldn't have as much of an immunity to the other types.
You're right, +5 is much more common now than it used to be - but if we give shifters unbypassable DR, where does the line get drawn? Should Epic Divination Focus make Premonition +6 DR? What about Transmutation for Stoneskin? Shadow Evade? You can't keep creeping up the power level forever. There has to be a line somewhere. The Stone Golem does have the barbarian damage reduction feats, by the by, and so does still have a small degree of reduction, along with the suite of Golem immunities and 100% Acid Immunity, which shouldn't be underestimated.
There's no hostile voice here. I'm not sure what else to say. I'm sorry you feel that way, it's not intended.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Has anyone even tried putting the stone golem and other forms to practice? Rosary's unenchanted prismatic dragon was quickly chopping Sully's HP down to under a half in a matter of seconds in stone golem form. It was too easy... From what it looks like, you're still just taking solid hits with your mediocre/ below average AC, so you can't dodge much. Wouldn't the acid immunity be considered useless if you have the ring? So other than bypassing mestils acid sheath and casting haste, when will you ever need the stone golem considering that the other forms provide better offensive capabilities? It's significantly reduced defensive capabilities do not feel it's worth of investment and efficiency. All it's other abilities are negatable. I think this needs to be tested thoroughly, in practice.
Also, we've had many cases of shifters in wraith form take out a party of 8+ singlehandly. Something to be considered!
_________________ Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch
I agree with most of the changes here, but I would bump Stone Golem's physical damage immunities to 25% and revert Gargoyle nerfs altogether. Stone Golem was too powerful, but the gargoyle was not. Without any offensive or supportive capabilities to speak of and none of the golem immunities, its great tankiness was within reason. I'm also going to voice my disappointment that nerfing shifters was considered a higher priority than destroying the abominable Bioware True Seeing. I made a topic about it years ago that gained a lot of attention, but nothing happened. Another one was made in recent times with even lesser success. Maybe now is the time? Editing creature skins shouldn't be this much trouble.
Joined: 29 Jul 2007 Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
Yay, dragon shape sucks a little less for shifters now since the stronger stuff got a nerf. Though I'd still love to see a small bump in it's powers to bring it more in line with some of the other shapes that doesn't require such devotion to wis dumps, like allowing more items to merge or giving them an elemental aligned spell to cast in addition to the breath weapon. But of course I'm completely biased.
And IMHO, all forms that has epic weapon focus should have it removed to force you to get it yourself and devote some more feats than just the 1 form shape when you want to specialize in that particular shape, the same way you do with other feats or char stats to devote to a particular shape. Since it's an epic feat, gaining it for free on some shapes seem a bit over the top when you look at the other strengths or weaknesses of a particular shape. Since AB seems to be a general weakness of shifters, forcing people to devote feats to overcome it seems like a decent way to balance it across the board instead of giving it for free to some shapes, especially if they already come with high str or dex in the first place.
I also feel the gargoyle got nerfed a bit too harshly because it was already not the best shape to use for tanking due to lacking immunities the same way the construct or undead shapes get. I rather enjoyed using the gargoyle at times, not because it was better than the stone golem shape, but because it was different. I did some testing and generally against both players and spawns, gargoyle already preformed well below the stone golem due to not having crit immunities and a much lower healthpool. Giving it 20 or 15/+6 DR with 10/- physical reduction will make it a bit more useful in some situations and avoid it being generally useless.
The only reason I say this is that I'd like to see a bit more of diversity in shape uses rather than everyone using 1 or 2 for most situations. Diversity is always a good thing and bringing more forms up to par or making them have more fringe uses, but still be weaker than forms that require epic feat devotion, could help diversify the class a bit.
_________________ Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
I agree with most of the changes here, but I would bump Stone Golem's physical damage immunities to 25% and revert Gargoyle nerfs altogether. Stone Golem was too powerful, but the gargoyle was not. Without any offensive or supportive capabilities to speak of and none of the golem immunities, its great tankiness was within reason. I'm also going to voice my disappointment that nerfing shifters was considered a higher priority than destroying the abominable Bioware True Seeing. I made a topic about it years ago that gained a lot of attention, but nothing happened. Another one was made in recent times with even lesser success. Maybe now is the time? Editing creature skins shouldn't be this much trouble.
I think the gargoyle is crummier then construct by design because it doesn't take feats or wisdom investment to get.
Yay, dragon shape sucks a little less for shifters now since the stronger stuff got a nerf. Though I'd still love to see a small bump in it's powers to bring it more in line with some of the other shapes that doesn't require such devotion to wis dumps, like allowing more items to merge or giving them an elemental aligned spell to cast in addition to the breath weapon. But of course I'm completely biased.
And IMHO, all forms that has epic weapon focus should have it removed to force you to get it yourself and devote some more feats than just the 1 form shape when you want to specialize in that particular shape, the same way you do with other feats or char stats to devote to a particular shape. Since it's an epic feat, gaining it for free on some shapes seem a bit over the top when you look at the other strengths or weaknesses of a particular shape. Since AB seems to be a general weakness of shifters, forcing people to devote feats to overcome it seems like a decent way to balance it across the board instead of giving it for free to some shapes, especially if they already come with high str or dex in the first place.
I also feel the gargoyle got nerfed a bit too harshly because it was already not the best shape to use for tanking due to lacking immunities the same way the construct or undead shapes get. I rather enjoyed using the gargoyle at times, not because it was better than the stone golem shape, but because it was different. I did some testing and generally against both players and spawns, gargoyle already preformed well below the stone golem due to not having crit immunities and a much lower healthpool. Giving it 20 or 15/+6 DR with 10/- physical reduction will make it a bit more useful in some situations and avoid it being generally useless.
The only reason I say this is that I'd like to see a bit more of diversity in shape uses rather than everyone using 1 or 2 for most situations. Diversity is always a good thing and bringing more forms up to par or making them have more fringe uses, but still be weaker than forms that require epic feat devotion, could help diversify the class a bit.
I think the feats that give access to multiple forms have enough diversity as it is. I think Dragon Shape is in a good place as it requires six epic feats to get (literally all your epic feats if you're a druid) and has solid mechanical drawbacks, I still think cloak/ring slots merging wouldn't be out of the question, as right now it's super gear independent. Or giving it +5 natural armor inherently, so I don't have to use a skin-change to look all cool, and then turn into bark which looks stupid as fuck.
How long does the free rebuild offer last? I am not currently capable of actively playing on Amia, yet my shifter is very influenced by these changes. Because of other factors I cant just immediately decide if I need to rebuild the shifter or not.
Also stone golem in this way seems useless as a tank - GMW is vanilla here, meaning it is easily obtainable and if bosses dont have +6 or better it should not be reason to such a drastic change.
Iron golem does not receive any compensation for losing WM feats? Consider that Shifter builds generally dont have really high AB, it was nice to sometimes actually hit something hard. And as said above me - will there be more balancing because of HIPS?
_________________ Zendaer Amattis Torgon Crimsonshade Khalid Athanalo CET time zone
How long does the free rebuild offer last? I am not currently capable of actively playing on Amia, yet my shifter is very influenced by these changes. Because of other factors I cant just immediately decide if I need to rebuild the shifter or not.
While I don't speak for the DM team, I think it's pretty safe to say that if you PM a DM now about how you don't have time right now irl to sit-down crunch builds and compare/contrast numbers, and don't just keep playing every day in the meantime, they would let you rebuild for free outside of the time-limit.
Take a step back and look objectively for a moment; the form gets temporary bonus HP and has over 600 HP, mass haste infinitely, over 65 AC easily, and golem immunities with free DR and Barbarian DR feats; to say that is 'useless' as a tank is absurd. Maybe people got used to being insanely overpowered or something. I'd love to have half of that stuff as anything else; kind of ridiculous when you consider that's only one of its forms.
Yeah, I don't think people are expecting people to have rebuilds ready immediately. It's best to take some time to digest the changes and do some testing and math. I like Commie had a great suggestion with queuing a future rebuild with the DM's!
How long does the free rebuild offer last? I am not currently capable of actively playing on Amia, yet my shifter is very influenced by these changes. Because of other factors I cant just immediately decide if I need to rebuild the shifter or not.
Also stone golem in this way seems useless as a tank - GMW is vanilla here, meaning it is easily obtainable and if bosses dont have +6 or better it should not be reason to such a drastic change.
Iron golem does not receive any compensation for losing WM feats? Consider that Shifter builds generally dont have really high AB, it was nice to sometimes actually hit something hard. And as said above me - will there be more balancing because of HIPS?
Iron Golem did not have WM levels and so does not lose AB due to this change - what it loses is 13-20 crit range. It is now 15-20.
I consider 49 AB pretty good AB - this is +5 weapon AB for a non WM full BAB fighter, as the bogstandard 12/2/16 wm hits 52. We shouldn't be balancing a 3/4ths BAB class so that it has WM levels of AB in forms, imho.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Great change and for the better. Never understood the fact as marketed as "Jack-of-all trades, master of none", yet seemed to wipe out most others they met, even if facing a group of people.
What I don't understand is the lack of sonic weakness. Aren't golems, by my limited understanding of lore, usually weak to sonic especially.
Well I won't reach 49 AB in Iron in any way. I would have to dig into rebuilding even further than just "is this shape worth it" but go to "is this whole concept worth it"? But I'll see. If there's time I will look into it.
_________________ Zendaer Amattis Torgon Crimsonshade Khalid Athanalo CET time zone
Well I won't reach 49 AB in Iron in any way. I would have to dig into rebuilding even further than just "is this shape worth it" but go to "is this whole concept worth it"? But I'll see. If there's time I will look into it.
I think this goes with the "Jack of all Trades" idea... most classes cannot reach that AB. Fighter types should and can, but.... shifters aren't meant to be the best fighters.
47 AB is not something top, but if you consider other things from Iron Shape like : Base 30 STR 24 CON, all construct imunities (this means PM lvl 10 imunities + some protect spells against mind and such, and you get it for free and undispellable from constructs), 1d10 electric (and since it's shifter you merge-add fire+cold on it with a help), free keen, free +5 weapon, free feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Knockdown, Disarm, Improved Critical, it would be ridiculous if it had some top AB.
Personally i think most of the balances are OK, i'm just a bit sceptic about stone golem which right now looks like only support shape for mass haste, and no-nerf for wraith which can be really strong (but yeah, it can be countered by clerics or such too).
EDIT: Oh and i think the only one non-feat shape that was used a bit was kinda destroyed, because everyone will consider undead/construct imunities with less reductions against those gargoyle reductions but without imunities. It would be nice if someone focused on making the non-feat shapes a bit...tasty...so players would play more shifty-shifter class, while changing shapes according to the situation.
Just a little reminder, (I know this was changed very recently, but it is kind of important to change this quickly IMHO) there is this post, which would need updating (or at least the "The Druid & Shifter Spreadsheet" download would need changing, or a note and link about this topic, since searching for stuff like this before making a character is very tedious.
It would be nice if someone focused on making the non-feat shapes a bit...tasty...so players would play more shifty-shifter class, while changing shapes according to the situation.
This is ultimately what I'm still crossing my fingers for. I know it'll be some work, but with shifter shape buffs no longer working from one shape to the other, theoretically it should be easier now to focus on improving the situational quality of each individual form, too.
It's a tough class to balance. No matter my stance on the changes, or my own belief that it's not as simple to create an OP warmachine as it's been made out to be-- I understand that there are significantly more hurdles in moderating the abilities of Shifters than other classes.
It would be nice if someone focused on making the non-feat shapes a bit...tasty...so players would play more shifty-shifter class, while changing shapes according to the situation.
This is ultimately what I'm still crossing my fingers for. I know it'll be some work, but with shifter shape buffs no longer working from one shape to the other, theoretically it should be easier now to focus on improving the situational quality of each individual form, too.
It's a tough class to balance. No matter my stance on the changes, or my own belief that it's not as simple to create an OP warmachine as it's been made out to be-- I understand that there are significantly more hurdles in moderating the abilities of Shifters than other classes.
We'll see what happens, I suppose.
Yeah as it stands its very hard because most forms are still more or less not used because it all boils down to AC/AB/DR and damage... I use my Blue wyrmling for true see scouting, and skeletal form for ever thing else (((I'm a odd case because I'm focused on scythe feats...ect and a fighter levels mind you))
But the problem is all the forms are the same, very bad melee fighters unless they have a ability and in that case its nothing more then spam skill till fight is over Mindflayer,Medusa,Death Slaad...ect you get the idea.
The only form that kind of forces itself to be different is Dire tiger form with its +7 AB vs Animals, 2d6 Damage vs Animals, I don't know if that is really a option/correct one to have more forms have kind of a select monster type to go after.
Because as it stands I don't think Harpy,Minotaur,Basilisk,Drider,Manticore,Drow, and Dire tiger, really get much use in game so the question is how to change them to make them more useful but not just throw on more of the same of the other forms...
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
i don't know, I used Basilisk and Dire tiger on my shifter quite a bit. The basilisk is especially useful for when someone brings in a hack toon and starts killing all the NPC's in sight, they get really pissed and are very funny raging in chat while turned to stone.
Although the question I've been waiting years to have answered is, what the timeframe for the Elemental overhaul is?
_________________ Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
As I am getting slowly back to playing here I went over the changes again. I would like to point out, that most tankish/fighter-like forms have bonus to discipline - gargoyle, risen lord, azer, dire tiger etc. However stone golem lost his immunity to knockdown and got no discipline bonus. Is there a chance for adding this, or is stone golem form considered too powerful even as it is now for this bonus?
_________________ Zendaer Amattis Torgon Crimsonshade Khalid Athanalo CET time zone
As I am getting slowly back to playing here I went over the changes again. I would like to point out, that most tankish/fighter-like forms have bonus to discipline - gargoyle, risen lord, azer, dire tiger etc. However stone golem lost his immunity to knockdown and got no discipline bonus. Is there a chance for adding this, or is stone golem form considered too powerful even as it is now for this bonus?
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
I would kinda like to re-open this topic.
I've been leveling a new Shifter. I haven't played a Shifter sense before these changes, and I haven't really got to say what I thought..
These changes kinda screwed the whole class up. From Leveling to Running Bosses. I'm not saying I dedicate my time to Epic Boss Runs, but its always been enjoyable for me. With these changes, literally every Shape I used (and many other Shifters use) to run Epic Bosses are now useless.
For example,
1. The Epic Gargoyle Shape could take Windy. While it wasn't easy, the Epic DR with a Elemental Pot meant Windy piratically killed herself. You just needed to heal once. Their DR has literally been cut in-half. Making them really useless in general.
2. The Epic Drider lost its WM Feats, and this was a form commonly used for Snowbeast. Now its useless because the damage output isn't useful anymore.
Another issue is the buffs. You can't buff your character with a Shifter form, then shift to a new one. Which was a huge bonus for the class. But now it just means players have to focus in buying materials to outsource what their forms use to do. I don't see how logically buffs go away just because you unshift.
This "update" was to make more forms attractive, but it just made all these forms unattractive. On top of all this, Slaads no longer get to summon other Slaads.. I've leveled a Shifter to 28 to see the updates and don't even want to finish. Not a single form I consider useful anymore. Not in PvP, PvM, e.t.c. And I love Shifter class more than any other.
Maybe the team can actually update forms, not nerf them? I love Amia, but this literally ruined my desire to play this whole class. It's pretty bad when the forms PCs use to Epic Boss Hunt / Level were completely nerfed, and we're told it's a "Update".
1. The Epic Gargoyle Shape could take Windy. While it wasn't easy, the Epic DR with a Elemental Pot meant Windy piratically killed herself. You just needed to heal once. Their DR has literally been cut in-half. Making them really useless in general.
I consider a level 3 shifter form soloing windy by making him kill himself too strong. Fixed, working as intended.
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2. The Epic Drider lost its WM Feats, and this was a form commonly used for Snowbeast. Now its useless because the damage output isn't useful anymore.
x3 vs x4 crits is not breaking that form. Its AB was not touched, and the weapon doesn't have a high enough crit range to where it's a large adjustment to the form's damage output. Drider was not commonly used for snowbeast, Iron Golem and Stone golem were. Drider was not commonly used for anything except to spam darkness. The crits were removed for consistency's sake. Working as intended.
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Another issue is the buffs. You can't buff your character with a Shifter form, then shift to a new one
This was one of the biggest exploits available to the shifter and one of the biggest reasons they were a problem class. Because they could get infinity: mass haste, stoneskin, greater stoneskin, flame weapon, imp invis, darkness, elemental damage shields,. stat buffs that stacked with the standard Animal Buffs, and an entire suite of offensive spells among others.
Fixed. Working as intended. You were never meant to be switching through forms to buff and then right clicking in Stone Golem form.
Slaad summoning was used to exploit AI. That's all. It was removed.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Therefore, pick wizard, buff yourself, and shapechange into a slaad to murk everything, because Shifter is a meme class now with the occasional gimmick build.
Therefore, pick wizard, buff yourself, and shapechange into a slaad to murk everything, because Shifter is a meme class now with the occasional gimmick build.
I don't think infinate mass haste + dr + immunities is really a 'gimmick.' Outsider shape having a form that's immune to all magic level 8 and below is not a 'gimmick.' Wraith and risen lord forms are not gimmicks. Dragon shape is not a gimmick. Gargoyle is almost unkillable.
It's not gimmicks, these things have uses, you just need to use the right form with the right abilities at the right time, and 'shift' as what's needed changes.
Not just sit in one form and have the buffs/spells of all forms.
Stone golem is a gimmick if built with monk so it can actually hit things with its infinite hastes, otherwise it's just mass haste support with mediocre AB. Rakshasa is a gimmick exactly for the reason you specified; immunity to most magic. Good luck chugging haste pots and spamming ice storms on anything with improved evasion. Spectre is the cheesiest of all the forms, even for a generic shifter build. Risen lord is embarrassingly trash unless specifically built to spec. Kudos if you're a nigh unkillable gargoyle though. Until you fight anything that isn't vanilla AI.
I've played a shifter for five years, I know they each form has their uses. If synergizing with yourself is OP, so be it. The class itself just isn't attractive for me to play anymore, except to troll people with a thousand faces.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
I suggest you, Tormak and Commie, actually make a Shifter and see how it works against Amia now. It use to be able to withstand some nice areas, but now 90% of the shapes suck. All of the forms, touched or untouched, aren't useful to Amia anymore. Over the years they've been "updated" so much they're not even use able, in my eyes, unless you're a really well geared Shifter, a Old one at that, and have a great build, like a Shifter/Shadowdancer.
And, Tormak, the infinite Mass Haste / Flame Weapon / blahblahblah, I hardly see being able to cast any of the spells the forms offer 3 times is "broken". Because once a Shifter shifts into its forms 3 times, then its over. Majority of Shifters would shift to get Stoneskin, Flame weapon, Mass Haste and Invisibility. I hardly see having to take the time to shift into 4 different forms a bit too overpowered when in that time frame any PC / Monster can kill you. Plus you have to prepare yourself with traditional enchantments, then fight.
EDIT:
Commie;
Stone Golem is really weak in Melee. The DR / Haste / Immunities doesn't compensate for the low AC / AB it has. At best you'll just be bait for a little while. Outside Shape (Rak) is immune to a LOT of spells, yes, but any melee will kick its ass. Spam Unhasted Flame Strike / Ice Storm vs. 1 KD and your'e dead. Wraith / Risen Lord: Risen Lord is OK, it has good DR / Immunities, but any Melee will pick it off. Unless the Risen Lord can get some great crits in. Wraiths? Only time I see Wraiths in Pvp / PvM do anything is when you're the Monk/Shifter/Druid. Dragon Shape I can't really comment on. I was going to get it on this new Shifter, but too disappointed to get 2 levels.
90% of the best Shapes aren't useful anymore. Plain and simple.
Infinite cast of the best spell in the game is not useless by that alone.
Undead shifter druid 5 DWD wraith is unkillable and actually does great damage with a good bab and has +5 built in so get a +2d8 divine dmg dagger and go ham.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Commie wrote:
Infinite cast of the best spell in the game is not useless by that alone.
Undead shifter druid 5 DWD wraith is unkillable and actually does great damage with a good bab and has +5 built in so get a +2d8 divine dmg dagger and go ham.
But yeah, class is good. I have one, it's good.
You're naming a very specific build, which means its a gimmick. Any Shifter build that focuses in a single form is a gimmick. The point of a Shifter isn't to focus in one form, but to use a wide range of them to perform his task. While I'm glad you enjoy it, seems more people dislike it then like.
Being the case, I'd like to see if at the very least least used forms or other shapes in general can get a update. A actual update not a "update we're going to remove their abilities and make them lame".
Generalist, SHIFTing shifter is at best a poor flavored bard. And specialized single form shifters neuter the spirit of the class. It is the hardest class to balance, I can't see it ever being happily playable as a generalist when specialization is an option.
Generalist, SHIFTing shifter is at best a poor flavored bard. And specialized single form shifters neuter the spirit of the class. It is the hardest class to balance, I can't see it ever being happily playable as a generalist when specialization is an option.
It's a bit tough to make the class less "Jack of all Trades, master of all" without "Jack of one trade tbh" being a thing.
For current shifters: What aspects of each form are you struggling with? If possible add if you have specialised in that form or not. I'm genuinely curious.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Lack of buffs, general utility and lack of overall healing.
Healing - whilst Shifters can stack a lot of regen due to how its gear merges Stats (only counts the highest), passive regen can never really equate to someone spamming heal kits. Something Shifters can't use at all due to a silly vanilla mechanic. Cure potions are nowhere near as effective, and are much less cost efficient then a Heal Kit.
Buffs - Shifters can no longer prepare themselves by switching between forms to gain various buffs. This hurts a lot more then one might initially think as a Shifter essentially has no other means of getting various buffs. A shifter build generally requires 5 Levels in Druid, limiting builds to Druid/Shifter/One other class, usually Monk. Meaning many Shifters often don't have access to UMD. Without UMD a Shifter has no access to wands or scrolls, meaning no Imp. Invis, no Death Ward, no mage armor, no longer version of haste, etc. Shifters also don't have access to any items when shifted. Again Heal kits, but also scrolls, wands (if they even could use them) or spell books. This severely limits their all around utility.
In comparison to a Druid these days a Shifter is a Fighter comparing itself to a Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master. A Druid comes out on top in pretty much every way these days, especially with the new buffs to both Animal and Elemental Shape on top of the Druids innate casting ability, animal pet and potential Epic summon. I like Druids as they are and definitely believe Shifters needed a Nerf originally. But you not only gave the forms that needed it a much needed nerf, you completely took out the teeth of every shape by then additionally nerfing the class as a whole.
Albeit Gargoyle probably needs some love given back to it. Without being Crit immune its always still gonna get kicked around slowly whilst never really dishing anything back due its pathetic offensive capabilities. Relying on something like Elemental Shield potions is a risky mans game due to a Shifters overall lack of direct healing. Heal pots quickly lose their effectiveness, especially when not spaced out by heal kits.
Most specialized Shifter builds focus around getting certain feats for certain shapes, usually meaning they dont build Wisdom. This means there generally also limited to their Shapes base STR/DEX/CON. In example you want a CON based Kobold for Epic DR. Even if you have 26CON, the Kobold only has 12 base so the most your gonna ever get is 24. That's an extreme case, but the same applies for smaller min/maxing examples.
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