AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Holydeath on Fri, May 22 2015, 18:20 PM, edited 1 time in total.

So I'm currently using the lvl 27 Repose summon and it fits my character 100% so i'm happy about that, but something strikes me as odd when it comes to other folks there Epic summons As it stands i see that Construct thing and Silver dragons used 85% of the time, making me wonder about the others.
Also posted in the *help* Topic, maybe we can get a list about the summons's intended Roles(not stats)
But again here's my question to you, :::WHY do i rarely see anything else but a Silver dragon/construct ??
-Rp reasons?
-Power reasons?
-There using it since most others are?

This is not intended as a complaint to Balance/power its out of pure curiosity, Please keep it civil

I personally use whatever fits the character's aesthetic. My goody two-shoes aasimar uses the Arcadian Avenger. My clockwork loving inventor uses the golem.

The golem is marginally better than the other summons (the elemental blows, though), but it's also very neutral. Outsiders reveal your alignment, and undead annoy people. If you're trying to fly under the radar, Elemental/Sirrush/Golem is the way to go, and typically the golem beats out the other two.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

(the elemental blows, though)

I just made an evoker, goddammit!

The last thread regarding summons and their abilities was shut down by the staff, but I really hope this one isn't.

I really think we need to distinguish the difference between what information is in-character and what is out-of-character regarding mechanics. Amia isn't really a server that makes it's mechanics much of an in-character achievement. There are no secrets to discover regarding them, else some might be more difficult to acquire, and by extension more powerful, than others. The secrecy behind summon statistics makes our mechanical information feel incomplete, and we as players are sorely
misinformed because of speculation and hear say.

I don't think telling the players to find out in character addresses the issue that the information sought is generally out of character only, and it feels more like an insult to the player base, who's concerns are generally ignored on the matter.

To do what was suggested with summons, it would require either one incredibly dedicated player or multiple dedicated players to level characters up to a caster level of 21 to see what a summon does; and that doesn't even count pale masters, blackguards, or planar summons whom scale based on caster level and epic feats.

The very thought that all of these characters would cooperate for the sole purpose if categorizing the summon list on amia is metagaming at best sure to the required background and alignment aired of these characters - literally requiring every alignment from lawful good to chaotic evil to with in tandem for an out of character goal.

The other problem with the current system is that if in fact you are unhappy with your current summon, you are required to spend DCs on it, which most of the DM team hardly ever reward anymore. Making your mechanics commodity based, especially when said commodities are do desperately rate these days, discourages exploration entirely and gives players very little incentive to try out anything that works better for their character because they have no idea if it will be a flop.

None of this is an attack on the team of course, I'm offering player perspective on the matter because that's how I've seen it and I've agreed with a great deal of other players on the matter before.

So, that's my thoughts on the subject. Let's try and keep it civil when we post what we think guys, differing opinions are good, but don't be condescending each other; that's what got the last thread locked.

I believe the general consensus in the last thread was that non-specifics (ie roles) is good, specifics is bad. It only got shut down because people were obstinate.

Another IC method is a group that neutrally gathers intel on all epic summons and publishes a book on them. No screwing with alignment in that case.

That could be up BoB's alley with the school in the lowlands. It'd be good Mystran rp.

Well that's why I'm going to be watching this thread closely.

But really, the "find out IC" excuse is just that, an excuse for a system we don't understand. It also isn't really applicable because most of the summons are alignment locked.

The problem I'm pointing too is that the information being hidden is not in character information, but OOC mechanical information about the changes made to Neverwinter Nights fur the purposes of our module. Off it's different, we ought to know how before making a decision on hire to apply it. And the fact that there it's a mechanical discrepancy makes it ask the more important to evaluate them without having to spend 5-25 off the aforementioned usually rare DCs we're awarded on them.

There was no consensus at all before. The thread got locked because some posters were exceedingly rude to the development team, and a rage post was made that signaled the end of the conversation. As a result I'm just going to try to keep this one from going out off control so we can talk about it.

Posting the 'roles' of summons is absolutely fine, and if somebody wants to compile a list they're welcome to do so. That said, I think it could be interesting if this was done ICly rather than OOCly since that might give casters something fun to gather up and research. You don't have to, and an OOC list is probably useful nonetheless, but actually gaining the information IC could lead to fun opportunities.

That brings us to, once again, the issue of separation of IC and OOC information. Why is it necessary to hide this information if it's just mechanical data?

If it is a mechanical discrepancy, then that discrepancy ought to simply be fixed instead of blaming "power builders" because it just puts blame on people who've then effort to learn the mechanics it the game.

And that is kind of a bad way to paint that people considering our end game content is based around farming boss NPCs at current and the best farmer is usually the one to have the best gear. This primarily benefits the mechanically adept or "power builders" the most anyway.

In that instance, he wasn't saying that it has to be done ICly, and leave OOC out of it. Just that it could be interesting rp to gather the information ICly. And I'd have to agree. Once the rp was done, then we could post an OOC topic about the various roles of summons.

Not to be that person who craps on someone's RP idea, but I really don't see how even a neutral group could track down and interview every single type of summoner in the game. Sure, you might be able to talk the wizards into cooperating for the sake of knowledge (although given how certain wizards don't go anywhere without every buff up and running out of paranoia, I dunno), but plenty of summoners aren't the scholarly type, or even casters. To cover each and every summon you'd need:

- Wizards of every alignment
- Wizards with every familiar
- Clerics of every alignment
- Clerics with the repose domain
- Clerics with the death domain
- Druids with every animal companion
- Blackguards of every alignment
- Shadowdancers
- Palemasters

That's a minimum of 32 people needed.

That's what makes it interesting. For the sake of knowledge, you'd have to go to some dark places. And hopefully not die. I mean, we could assemble it OOCly. It wouldn't be that big a deal. But it just seems like it could be a pretty neat, drawn out line of rp.

Holydeath wrote:

But again here's my question to you, :::WHY do i rarely see anything else but a Silver dragon/construct ??
-Rp reasons?
-Power reasons?
-There using it since most others are?
[/u]

Arguably, the Silver dragon and the Construct are the coolest looking epic summons, that on top of the fact that they are arguably the most powerful, makes them the most popular.

Honestly, though, that power isn't really required, and is kinda overkill. You can do just fine with any of the other epic summons with the right buffs. Anyone that won't let you in a farming group for not having chosen a powerful enough epic summons is just being a meanie.

Larsaan wrote:

To cover each and every summon you'd need:
- Shadowdancers

Already ICly documented:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=79925

Edit: Instead of, say, one person trying to document every single summon, why not let Palemasters/Evil Arcanists/Clerics and the like do one section, Neutral lot another and Good guys the last, then just link the IC documents to people who ask about Summons?

If this group truly was focused on the study of magic, instead of their personal moral/ethical codes, they'd get it done easily enough. Heck, Laura would happily work with anyone to advance the collective knowledge of summons, it's everyone else that doesn't want to work with her. :lol:

I'd argue that Tarkuul based casters would likely be willing to pitch in, which would help with a chunk of the darker summons.

It wouldn't be as bad as you might think, just takes effort.

Last edited by Dergaii on Sat, May 23 2015, 16:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.

This would need a neutral mage faction to initiate this. Something like the Mage Academy in the Delta. :wink:

Edit: Just noticed Davis already made the exact same reply.
I'll rephrase. Considering what I'm doing with Morfran, he'd eventually get to doing this himself.
Though if someone else were to initiate it, he'd be very eager to actively contribute.

I'm just talking about the roleplaying aspect of this situation.
I have no opinion on the dev aspect and the discussion on posting exact numbers.

The problem is, again, that you're blaming the player base and proposing and excuse for a system that was insufficient from it's conception.

Saying "it's the player's fault we don't have this information available because they didn't search exhaustively for the information" when the information should have been public knowledge from the start doesn't really make sense.

Forcing the players to compensate for something that was poorly implemented from that start is putting blame on them for not implementing the system well in the first place.

No one is blaming anyone, I believe you are reading too much into that. Speaking for myself I am offering a viable IC means of knowing this information. Hell, it'd make more sense to find out IC and have something IC published and then post it all OOC. That makes more sense for an RP based server, anyways.

But I doubt anyone is 'blaming the player base', that's just silly. Besides, the epic summons need to be reworked; construct and undead vastly outpower the rest as it is and everyone knows it. Then there's the other non-EMD ones with issues.

Well, therein lies the rub. I'd actually like to know just how many players, when planning a new build and character concept, take feats they know nothing about mechanically. I mean wow, that Dirty Fighting feat suits my character, I absolutely need that feat on my character sheet, right?

I also understand that in order to curb the general tendency to min/max and build as efficiently as possible, some things need to be vague. However, the barn door let alone the power-building channel or teaching players "how to fish", has been open too long to reasonably tell players that certain mechanical elements are restricted to IC knowledge only.

To be fair, if maximizing character potential is allowed in addition to IC concerns, then how can denying mechanical data be called fair. It only really helps those players that already have mechanical experience and penalizes players who don't. Players who farm the bosses on the server regularly, already know which summons, epic items, and gear are mechanically the "best". The players who are unable or decline to farm epic areas, will have very little of this mechanical information at hand and be at a disadvantage overall.

It also occurs to me that if the DM team as a whole cannot distinguish between IC knowledge and OOC information, how can players be expected to?

Edit: typo's >.<

Naivatkal wrote:

But I doubt anyone is 'blaming the player base', that's just silly.

No. I also think that is precisely what happens, and on a pretty regular basis.

The summons are fine, largely. The problem comes when people start measuring them as apples to apples when it's more apples to oranges. You cannot measure the golem, for example, against the Arcadian avenger because they are both built for vastly different roles (one a tank, the other an all-rounder).

The reason you see golems/undead is a simple and obvious one, the classes who cast epic spells are by and large a buncha squishy dress-wearers who want tanks. And while there are a few other epic summons options with a tank role to choose, they fail because NWN is pretty limited in mechanics. You've only so many ways to mitigate damage in this game and of choosing high AC, massive regen, dmg resistance, or dmg immunity only resistance is really viable. All the AC in the world will get tore apart by 5 monsters rolling 20s easily. Ignoring 50% of physical dmg still ends up losing a big chunk of HP/hit. And massive regen just means you're probe to being overwhelmed or having to sit around waiting to regen, no one wants that.

You cannot contrast and complain a summons built for offense (like the corruptor) is weak compared to a golem simply because the point of the corruptor is damage, not soaking. Each summons has a niche mechanic it specializes in to do their roles and unfortunately no matter what you do some are always going to be better than others simply because their mechanic is the most useful. Short of downing it to the point it's worthless (yay, useless summons), there's nothing to be done. So long as each summons is different statted, one will always be more effective at this or that.

Complaining that every summons doesn't tank as well as undead/golems do is silly because every other summons greatly surpasses them in another regard pertinent to their roles (be it AC, damage, # of AT, a balanced "jack of all stats, master of none" sheet, etc).

If the caster chose a non-traditional playstyle like spellsword or has a steady and active party or large faction, they're well-served in choosing anything other than golem, as an offensive choice like the corruptor or avenger is much more useful to their play dynamic as a whole.

MightNMagic wrote:

The summons are fine, largely.

Strongly disagree. It's all well and good to say that the summons are supposed to have different roles, but the fact of the matter is that some summons plain suck at those roles. For one, the caster AI in this game is utterly terrible, so any caster summon that isn't the eyeball familiar is borderline useless by default, and that's without going into the ones that are just built badly.

Holydeath wrote:

WHY do i rarely see anything else but a Silver dragon/construct ??

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

The problem I'm pointing too is that the information being hidden is not in character information, but OOC mechanical information about the changes made to Neverwinter Nights fur the purposes of our module. Off it's different, we ought to know how before making a decision on hire to apply it. And the fact that there it's a mechanical discrepancy makes it ask the more important to evaluate them without having to spend 5-25 off the aforementioned usually rare DCs we're awarded on them.

MightNMagic wrote:

Each summons has a niche mechanic it specializes in to do their roles and unfortunately no matter what you do some are always going to be better than others simply because their mechanic is the most useful.

I think the reason you see Silver dragon/construct so often is because their 'roles' are more understood than the others. They are the safe choice. Who wants to invest time building towards an epic summon that it turns out isn't suitable to the pc's style of play? At all. Ending up with an EMD that doesn't do what you expected or hoped... is a not so nice feeling, trust me.

Larsaan wrote:

MightNMagic wrote:

The summons are fine, largely.

Strongly disagree. It's all well and good to say that the summons are supposed to have different roles, but the fact of the matter is that some summons plain suck at those roles. For one, the caster AI in this game is utterly terrible, so any caster summon that isn't the eyeball familiar is borderline useless by default, and that's without going into the ones that are just built badly.

Did you even read my post beyond the first line? Mind-boggling.

I did. Did you read mine? Because saying something like:

MightNMagic wrote:

Complaining that every summons doesn't tank as well as undead/golems do is silly because every other summons greatly surpasses them in another regard pertinent to their roles (be it AC, damage, # of AT, a balanced "jack of all stats, master of none" sheet, etc).

If the caster chose a non-traditional playstyle like spellsword or has a steady and active party or large faction, they're well-served in choosing anything other than golem, as an offensive choice like the corruptor or avenger is much more useful to their play dynamic as a whole.

very much implies that each summon is good as long as they're used for their intended purpose, when that just isn't true. There are summons that are bad at everything.

Okay caster sorts, what's the better tank? Arcadian Avenger, Sirrush or Silver Dragon?

I never used the Sirrush, but I'd say the Arcadian Avenger is the better tank out of the other two, simply by way of having Regen.

The problem with "roles" is that the tankier summons are adequate at the other, more offensive roles. I think the Githzerai one is the exception because it hits like a wet noodle. The golem is the summon of choice for just about everyone on the server because it's massively tanky and also clears most places just fine. Whereas the more offensively oriented summons (your Arcadian Avengers and Sirrushes) might hit harder than the others, but they melt in some of the more difficult places that the golem can handle just fine.

I'm having a squishiness problem after my druid's pet was switched from Badger to dire wolf. I didn't know they had that much variation. Her EMD is the avenger, but she can reskin anything that uses the Conjuration base.

Role variation in the druid companions is far more pronounced than in the EMD line of summons.

So, is there a link with the updated Repose summons? Cause I summoned some sort of soul crow?

topic necromancy... oh yes!
I have a question about Githzerai Savant summon from Mummy dust. It was said here, that he hits like a wet noodle which is expression I just cant translate precisely into "good/bad" explanation. So any ideas?
Personally I'm expecting some sort of unhitable monk.

Also there were some opinions about elemental sucking? Why? Even worse when casting than omnielemental (who usually uses meteors on like one last almost dead foe)?
And I also heard that Sirrush is kinda sucker as well? Hardcore attacker?

Opinions?

No stats needed just some bit of guidance needed.

I use both Githzerai Savant and Sirrush on different characters, sooo...

Savant: Unbuffable attacks with average strength and some pretty okay monk abilities. Straight up cannot harm most high level enemies. But if you can buff its wisdom and dexterity up, give it a full battery of defensive spells it serves pretty much its only purpose as a living wall.

The main difference being that it's a wall which you can just fling spells into any melee that is attracted its way. Good for blasty wizards and clerics who like blade barriers.

Sirrush: Buffable attacks, low strength, very high dex for a summon. Biiiig regeneration on it, but it's dependant on its power attack feats to deal out much damage. If you maintain it with the odd healing potion it serves as a passable tank for most epic level bosses, but it just straight up doesn't have the immunities of other tanky summons so it's very high maintenance.

I use it as a secondary form of attacks on my spellblade, since it makes a really good flanker. Good for melee casters who like to charge in with something to support them in a fight rather than have the summon itself as a front liner. Excellent for druids if magic fang works on the thing.

Keep in mind that both are faaaarrr from optimal, mind you. I just really like 'em both.

I still would favor you your character (if interested heavily in Summons) go ahead and become a Master Conjurer, epic focus in conjuration, and adopt it wholly as a piece of your character's identity, and work to summoning even more powerful creatures by way of dedication. Work with the DMs to get such a Calling spell approved, and become mighty over those 'generalist' casters who think they know everything. No pun intended.

Murkoph: thx for info, helped a lot.

Aiseth: While it is true that my character is kinda heavy on summoning and has (among some else) epic spell focus in conjuration, other part is that I've been here for a fairly short time. That means having no DCs and still not being sure about how to fit in here. I'm working on all I can think off to fit everything in place it just takes lot of time.

My character as a mage is kinda reaching out to other planes of existence so I would prefer to use Githzerai as a summon and maybe later on to "upgrade" him. I like what you are saying I'm just not sure what would be demanded on my part. Would just the style I play mage and epic spell focus enough? I'm afraid that it would not be the case.

Reason why I'm asking is that I just like to balance my character's RP level and actual system power so I dont come off as someone who talks big but cant do a thing. It happened to me when I started playing NWN and I felt it was wrong. So now when I am kinda opened to certain summons more than others and I have almost no info about some of them (that's why I asked about Githzerai and Sirrush) I try to look it up and find the right fit.

As said, by going down this route in IC, it would be great way for conjuror mage to establish a reputation as a conjuror. Amongst IC and amongst the DM team. Not an impossible task, time consuming certainly. Honestly speaking though, this course of arcane RP would be great opportunity to get to know people from all around the places. This would have something I could have done with my toon had she not hated certain individuals and organizations IC:ly.

Sure your mage can be sought out due to working evil people for the information and people IC:ly might be after you.. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. Additionally, if you're unable to locate certain summoners, perhaps you could work with a DM to organize a summoning circle to summon a specific summon for study. Thus having great RP sessions with other mages and finding out information. I am sure someone from the DM team would looooove to help facilitate magic RP, been my experience at least. You don't need a faction to arrange this either. There are good aligned casters, evil aligned casters and neutral casters around already. Just get in touch with correct people, the IC way of finding the correct people is part of the fun as well!

Plus, you can change your summon easily enough, sure you possibly could not get the DC's for DC rebuild.. But you can request a de-level and rebuild via that way. If you arrange the arcane RP and work with DM's you're bound to get DC's. For example, I rebuild Las 5 times, I think... 2 of them were total rebuilds. While I did not obtain Dc's all the time, the magic rp that I attempted to organize helped to gain enough DC's for them. Some events were just player events which DM paid interest to follow and surprise us. Not to mention sometimes people donated DC's for the rebuilds I was requesting, helping me out as they thought it was character fitting course.

This matter is not as difficult as it being painted to be organized. It is simple matter of bothering to do the work to gain something without it being handed to you.

EDIT: How I see this the IC knowledge is something most mages and organizations would want. A great trade. You do X, and I provide X. Thus we have a tome with Summon stuff.

EDIT 2: Not to mention getting your characters name as a conjuror out there.

Yeah, I get the idea in general, I'm not new to RP. I just need to get around to how Amia functions in this. Who to talk, how to spread the message, what counts as reasonable request etc. Plus english is my second language so it's not natural for me to formulate thoughts

This just now just sounds like you wanna me to do all that research mentioned above (all alingments, classes, differents levels and focuses).

But basically to be "master conjuror" I should work some research in that area, probably with assistence of other mages - to make something for others, create "content/event" as I would say (which is part OOC, part IC, cause I would not maybe need for research to necessarily work with others) which gains me reputation (and DCs for request hopefully). Plus if I wanted upgraded that summon I should probably work out something about summoning certain individual repeatedly and training him, or learning how to summon powerful creatures unlike other mages.

Anyway thx for advice in summon choosing and guidance in how to make more from it.

Hopefully I'll think something out and I'll be able to play it out even in my time zone limitations.

I think that epic summons as a whole should be re-approached and rebalanced to be more rewarding. Do not read this as me wanting to solo the server with them, make no mistake on this. I just think that if people are either taking a lot of a particular class level(pale master, cleric) to achieve a certain summon or if they're burning an epic feat on a summon, they should have a clear idea as to what does what and each summon should exceed at what it does and nothing else.

I remember reading the roles of each summon when they were first made. It was rather detailed. Not sure if those dev posts still exist.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47046&hilit=Mummy+Dust

Edit: Apparently it wasn't as descriptive as I thought.

Larsaan wrote:

That's a minimum of 32 people needed.

Challenge accepted.

Naivatkal wrote:

I'd argue that Tarkuul based casters would likely be willing to pitch in, which would help with a chunk of the darker summons.

Community work? 4 shizzle!

ZoltanTheRed wrote:

I think that epic summons as a whole should be re-approached and rebalanced to be more rewarding. Do not read this as me wanting to solo the server with them, make no mistake on this. I just think that if people are either taking a lot of a particular class level(pale master, cleric) to achieve a certain summon or if they're burning an epic feat on a summon, they should have a clear idea as to what does what and each summon should exceed at what it does and nothing else.

I totally agree! But there's some obscure unspoken rule that we can't really post specific details about epic summons because of.... Powerbuilding? :roll:

Shouldnt then be all the changes of mechanics and mechanics in general be also secret? :wink:

It would be alright to say that some are tankish (most are), some are a combi of attack and defense and a few are offensive in nature (insulting you constantly). If you read up on the different summons you will get an idea of what they are like.

ZoltanTheRed wrote:

I think that epic summons as a whole should be re-approached and rebalanced to be more rewarding. Do not read this as me wanting to solo the server with them, make no mistake on this. I just think that if people are either taking a lot of a particular class level(pale master, cleric) to achieve a certain summon or if they're burning an epic feat on a summon, they should have a clear idea as to what does what and each summon should exceed at what it does and nothing else.

I think they're fine myself overall. You'll be re-balancing til the end of time with your line of thinking because as I stated before -unless you make them all the exact same- something will always perform less worse than others and people will notice and take that from then on. Then guess what? We're right back here again, someone making this -exact- same thread and some DM going "I think it's time to mess with them again. We'll get it right -this time.-"

As they are right now, they are almost all equal really. Each one has a niche that they fit into - the problem is the staff has this archaic belief that people should be doing something so goofy as taking them for looks instead of party role and this absolute policy that "nope, don't tell them a thing about anything, fly blind and pick what sounds good to you based on a name!" (As if any epic mage or priest ever acts in such a way.) This leads to people going "I'm not a hardcore nerd, what the blue hells is a "githzerai?"" (When their character *should* know what a githzerai is just fine.)

Then they end up picking it and find out exactly what it is and get a support striker rather than what they wanted... a tank.

The problem isn't the summons, the problem is the policy. Your epic character would know exactly what a sirrush is and does and like any other summons - would pick what was needed for the situation based on capability, not a vague name that sounded good at the time or by a blindfold and dartboard.

Each one has a party role it's meant for and each one approaches that role in a different way. Some are tanks, some are strikers. Some handle their tanking via damage reduction, some handle it by high ac, some have crazy regen. Some do their striking with high crits, some do it with 8 attacks. The problem isn't the summons, it's the bad policy that forces n00bs who have nothing to go on to make bad choices while the rest of us who've been around the block know you don't take this or that guy if you want this or that thing.

And it's important to note, epic summons are not important in the least. They're gravy to classes that are already overpowered as they come out of the box - while nice to have, epic summons are garnish, not the full meal. Mages, palemasters, and clerics are not pet classes. Summons for them are merely a support facet that's entirely optional and without them they are just fine. Actual pet classes: druids, rangers, shadowlords, and blackguards are classes that have been balanced to the point that the classes as a whole have had their power diminished because the pet is integral to their balancing and as such, animal companions, shadow lords, and blackguard fiends should have more functionality and be more impressive than anything a palemaster, epic mummy dust, or epic dragon knight farts out.

To be frank, we should be making a widget that just lets an epic mage or cleric choose like every other caster chooses with every other spell and take what they want based on situation. Construct, Outsider, Elemental, Beast, Undead. *poof* There you go. All problem solved. No more threads. No more newbies unhappy with their choice and abandoning characters. About the only issue might be their alignment-based outsider could be less helpful, but they have other picks, so no problem.

MightNMagic wrote:

To be frank, we should be making a widget that just lets an epic mage or cleric choose like every other caster chooses with every other spell and take what they want based on situation. Construct, Outsider, Elemental, Beast, Undead. *poof* There you go. All problem solved. No more threads. No more newbies unhappy with their choice and abandoning characters. About the only issue might be their alignment-based outsider could be less helpful, but they have other picks, so no problem.

Can this be done by making the scroll of alternate summoning a widget which would switch between types? Or even through the rest menu with how you can change your summons now?

Solvaras wrote:

Can this be done by making the scroll of alternate summoning a widget which would switch between types? Or even through the rest menu with how you can change your summons now?

Pretty sure it could work something along those lines, but it needs to be rescripted. I'll bring this up in the Dev's super sneakret forums, though!

Question about epic summons

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