I'm not sure what it is you're saying here, Gorgometh. It seems like you're feeling two opposites at once, which is entirely possible, but it's not very clear to me if that's the case- or if you're insinuating you lay more on one side than the other? I can assure you I'm being entirely genuine, but, it's up to you to believe me or not!

The specific needs of city-factions vary. A lot of that depends whether or not they are involved or need to respond to certain storylines. Nec’perya, being rather disconnected from the rest of the city-factions, does not have to react a great deal. Whereas Cordor for instance, constantly needs to do so. When a DM handling that city becomes unavailable for a time, it immediately restricts the cordor city-faction to respond to the actions of those that often interact with it. In Nec'perya, that feels like a general storyline halt. In Cordor, it can quickly feel like everyone else is immune to the storyline pause and you have to helplessly watch what the others are doing.

The current city-faction system, and the spread that increases the overall number of city-factions, came to be through both player and dm trends. This has impacted the server gameplay considerably. DMs become obligated to handle a much higher demand of time by the playerbase in this regard, because they have become vital to those prominent storylines. I very much feel like this is where a lot of the problems stem from. Alone the lack of less restricted plots and events can very much be attributed in part to this.

I believe there are three main questions that need to be asked:
1.) Is it this gameplay-system sustainable and healthy for the server?
2.) If not, can it be optimized in a way it is?
3.) If it cannot, can we shift focus to a different style of gameplay that might be better overall and healthier?

I can well imagine that a much higher organizations of plot-notes and a higher number of DMs it can be improved. When there are more than one DM overseeing a city-faction, it relieves the demand and stress considerably. I also believe that alternatively, you can cut down on a number of city-factions by having some only dm-run. This may be an occ restriction, but without unlimited resources of dm-hours, it may be simply necessary. But all of this may cause other issues, which would need to be considered.

What I do not think we can do is go on like we have. DMs shouldn’t be obligated by the way the server gameplay works to spent an unhealthy amount of time in the client, or be stressed by understandably frustrated players when they simply cannot. Players should not feel like their storylines are force-halted oocly by dm inactivity. And those players not in the city-factions, should not feel like way too much focus is placed on those who are, while they do not get much fun dm time at all.

This is actually one of the major things I have observed since coming back. The server has shifted from mostly player factions to city-factions. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing and in fact has a lot more potential for the players to actually do some really awesome stuff with said cities backing. Though, like mentioned, not only is the demand increased ten fold on the DMs to be present but progress is almost impossible without a DM to confirm that your actions don't undermine what the npc city is about. It is really a double edged sword from my perspective and I think it is one of the major reasons these issues have boiled over.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Faded, the idea of using forum posts to start off plots might not be entirely bad but there are problems that can arise... it'd really depend HOW...

If you were to use the forum to convey something a PC could not have seen or reasonably been a part of.. then okay. But, depending on the city and time, people might be around ICly.

Now.. *holds up a finger* If you want to do an event in game and forum post (or get a DM to forum post depending on the nature of the event) after since no one was around, it might be a good storytelling device to get news to PCs who would want to investigate but might not have been about at the time.

Heck, some events might be better served without any immediate initlal postings or anything of the like. Gonna borrow Christophan's death for example.

The catalytic event happened in game, and given the nature of the poison used on him, it wasn't instantaneous.. so, he went home and... well.. ((If you look up Warrick's death in the PC story forums it goes where the Forum post picked up after the in game action ceased)) .. he ended up in the Lines of the Crystal Spire in a not so nice way to go.

The forum posts and RP which came from there actually flowed pretty well from my perspective.. I don't know the full details of what happened in the COrdorian Guard investigation save they had ultimately worked out how he died and I think found a suspect by the end.

Having read over my post, I want to be sure it does not come across as if I am shifting blame. I was a big contributor to the city-faction system with my character storylines. I also very much like to see it continue for those who enjoy it, as there are highly enjoyable roleplay facets that it allows players to explore.

But at the same time, I am critical of the problems that I feel it is causing. Especially as one with one of those branded former all-star characters, I am mindful of how (rightfully) unfair it might seem to those players of regular factions that can not "move armies", or who do not receive the same amount of DM-attention.

Honestly this is an issue, since it puts up a lot of barriers to getting anything going if you can't just RP your character and their actions out, without having to worry about possible weeks or more of paused RP or it falling out because of DM availability or it being smacked because it would conflict with a DM plot (which shouldn't occur purely for that reason anyway).

Wanting that much control over the setting DM side is fine, but to do so effectively you need far more DMs than are active currently or just need to give over some of that control and allow player characters to make some more impact-full decisions without direct DM oversight.


That all said, you hardly NEED a DM for most things. I've headed up a number of factions and the vast majority of events or things I ran for other players rarely directly required a DM presence, since if you are relying on that you WILL get delays, just due to availability.



Also I do agree that there seems to have been a big shift to many characters gaining power not by setting up new groups and factions but by trying to gain control over already existing groups (and with it the NPCs/City and all the benefits that come with that). A bit torn on this since a fan of the interaction with cities that became more of a thing, but perhaps too much so as it seems that many players simply decided that getting in on a faction with heavy DM support like a city trumps trying to scrape by with a new group and getting a fraction of the amount of DM attention or RP power behind your faction.

Edit: Magiros reminded me of another good point which is bans that result because of it, I mean of course it is obvious as a player to ICly deal with those types by banning, however "IC consequences" fails when it is just used as reasoning to basically remove RP interaction from another PC entirely. Which I always thought was another strong part of that player-player animosity that you see occur when conflicts occur. Banning is a bit of a plague at this point in my view.

My largest ire with the current city-focused system is that those who are banned from the City or are targeted by citizens are being excluded from most rp other than conflict rp. While yes, it is part of IC consequences, but at times bans are placed on characters in relatively easy terms. While it might be nice to see to continue for those who enjoy it, it tends to influence everyone in that city, regardless whether they like it or not. In addition, due to the trend of city-focused RP, players are placed in conflict situations with one another. Which seems to have caused some of the grief, competing against one another to get to something and for the attention and time of the DM.

I do agree with the statement there is facets that are most enjoyable to explore, but that can said of any type of RP. Personally, I would like Amia to lessen the degree of power characters have and focus more on adventuring type. But that is just preference of my own over something else.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Problem: As a city-state person you are no longer The Adventurer who are being hired by representatives of the city-state or any local authority (like in the case of a standard pnp campaign), but the one who is supposed to hire the adventurers to deal with the dirt.

The lack of independent factions also reduced the number of the player vs player type of conflicts. I happen to realize the effect the occasional effect on my person, that sometimes I feel the impression that any player based issue, struggle, conflict slowly became less important to me. A few years ago I didn't feel this, but this was something that I simply noticed in the past 1 year or a bit more?

I think it wasn't you Pony, at least it started way before you made Ser Bob, and Ser Bob provided what was expected from him ICly. It simply occured because the Cordor plot ICly demanded your PC to be something similar with the NPCs. The nobles in exile had to be nobles, while the ones who were in Cordor had to cut back their adventurer background and become one with the crowd and become folks heroes.

The sentiment that made the standard DnD figure (The Heroic Adventurer from a distant land) unwanted in the IC environment of the biggest city and starting area of the server influenced this shift more than any PC. It was simply expected ICly the characters reacted ICly.

The question is: Was it good for the server? Answer: No, it wasn't.

More questions with my answers:

Are the DMs who were running Cordor back in 2008-10 responsible for this? Yes

Can you blame them? No

Why not? Because they reacted ICly on an issue which was both IC and OOC at the time, the "adventurers", who were running around throwing hellballs on people. Many of them were godmoding quite a lot, completely ignoring the NPC guards.

So it wasn't an issue back then? Why? Because the server was always full back then, and making some people unwanted or banned in the central rp hub of the server didn't really influence the overall atmosphere.

PvP resulting from conflict like that has declined, indeed... but I'm convinced that has more to do with people not wanting to deal with the aftermath, because in my experience, even if you win, you basically still lose. Having no set penalties for death since the playerbase could not agree on any, and having a playerbase that treats death like a d20 dice roll has made PvP conflict .. dead for me and many others; who now avoid it like the plague.

_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

You're welcome, Lutra.

And without having any kind of death consequence, what option is there except banning people? That seemed off the original topic, but I'd say it is one reason people don't seem to feel like they can affect anything on their own. If -everyone- is feeling like they can't do anything on their own, it's probably the most fair environment I've heard about on this server.

But then again, after reading all this, I'm still trying to figure out how any of this relates to my own experience here, and/or what exactly people are even upset(?) about. The only real concept I'm getting from all this (besides some things that have already been addressed with fixes in motion, like requests getting faster feedback) is that the module is too big for the playerbase and DM team.

_________________

<3

I love you people... but summah yall mudda huggers gotsa take a deep breff and pump ya brakes.

I'll put together full thoughts for anyone that cares to read them when I get off work but, to me, a lot of the responses on this thread feel very tense. Take it easy. We'll figure these things out.

We have something rolling out soon which should give some non city-faction folk a real chance to flourish in a meaningful way. I have been poking and prodding about in the playerbase looking to stir up and support some small faction and offshoot initiatives because I find great joy in home-grown adventuring. These types of characters and groups lend well to classic D&D "your party stumbles into some shady business" scenarios or randomized epic adventure that doesn't necessarily have a broad-reaching server story focus. I hear the cries for a more uniform and transparent look at where everyone is trying to drive the story of the server, but personally I'm not really about that. I'll help, gladly, but smaller initiatives are needing attention as well and that's where I'm likely going to be putting my efforts toward in the long run. Support, really-- being as excited to see what those crazy PCs are up to just as they're excited to run into some new shenanigans to deal with. Their characters and their own stories will grow, and they'll care a little less about where a city or major plotline is moving because they just happen less often to offer a better impact. There's so much undiluted fun to be had in supporting a ragtag crew on an adventure without the pressures of worldly conflicts or mind numbing bureaucracy.

I offered to help Kobra deal with some of his issues in running Cordor, namely that he just doesn't have the time or energy that the large number of people who want to do things there ask for him. They're not wrong to ask, but in attempting to help I got a real glimpse at the challenges he's facing and I can't help but think it's similar for DMs of frustrated players in other locations. More DMs is good, especially if they put that focus in the game and work alongside eachother well. On top of that, though, a playerbase better equipped and rewarded for being more self-reliant, I feel, would make great strides in alleviating a lot of the server's current ailments. This is sort of the thing I had hinted at before when I said I thought the problem wasn't just in the DM team but on both sides of the fence, but... Pony is far more eloquent in elaborating that point than I am. When I read that players will actively avoid DM interaction, sit around by themselves and feel angry, or get roped into logging in and doing the same thing every day with the same people, it's really depressing but also a bit strange. Unless you are one of those PCs in a situation where you can't progress, at all, because you're so deeply involved with NPCs and not players (like Cordor can be) I don't see obvious for a barrier to roleplay because there's little stopping people from going out and doing things together IC.

While I'm not positive I understood the spirit in Pony and the following messages 100%, I would like to throw my thanks to illustrating it so well that it could potentially open up a bit more eyes over here. It sounds like a tangible problem we can tackle together in a pragmatic, meaningful way. I might not be the maker of change specifically here, but I'd throw my weight behind the rolling ball.

I've watched this thread and been in & out, I've refrained from commenting until now.

I really just want to voice my thoughts.

We're all here to have fun, Can we draw a line under this.. Recognise both beneficial players have contributed and recognise that the past did contain that things could be improved and focus on the playerbase we have now, Get IG and do what we all like?

Often times I've noticed that the forums have been toxic, Sometimes making some of the most calm players become very heated, Whether its the nature of that I dont know.

Playerside, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that our playerbase want to offer support to give back to everyone else to make things easier adminwise, but lets do things between each other as players! Make that content enjoyable.

The debate of needing more DM support is something I wont go into, but the point is that we are all writing posts for the same reason. Lets work with what we got and enjoy it, Everything else will come.

_________________

Xalibossk, Body Tamer & Terror Of The Underdark

I'd just like to express, once more, I'm not tense. It isn't an issue I feel extremely angry about, as some might, or am encouraging to blame upon anyone. I think it's things like this topic turning into what it has that show underneath each little step forward is the need to dig deeper, if the intent among our community is retention. Retention rates only increase if there is deep community connection and happiness. I feel as if I'm often in a position to bridge that gap, despite my feelings and disassociation from the current Team stances and initiatives. I've been here for.. Well, a long time. But for anyone construing my words as aggressive, ill-intentioned or inflammatory, I ask your consideration of my time spent and your belief that I enjoy being here. I have remained a member of the community for a long time. I can say that I believe that about a lot of people posting here, too.

I'd like to hear from some of the quieter folks and I like to challenge the outspoken ones, and be challenged in return, because it's from there we see the reality of the future. One that, as pointed, is increasingly limited due to a limited game. To stay here, I don't want new content every day... I want to be heard. Anyways, I was just trying to facilitate and would love for a mod to step up and continue it- or for Burning's summation to!

Well I took some time to think before posting. In truth the best summery I could come up with for you Estara is well this. My opinion and what I was trying to come across with is a few things. Here will list them down below.

1 ) People need to be nicer to one another and believe in each other. (Trusting people isn't a bad thing. Without trust there is no friendships, without friendship there is no connection to players and characters. Without connection you gain zombies. With zombies walking dead happens and though it is great show not so great for fun game.)

2 ) People need to be more active. Players and DM's. Being on the forums less and being in game more.

3 ) Be respectful and polite. Some may argue this but when has it ever hurt someone to be respectful and polite to others. Like come on people were not kids here. Manners and respect go a long way on games as well as in life. (Thats right the parent in me came out for a moment. )

4 ) Work with people not against. This one is tricky because many people clash here. But it is a game so have fun with it.

5 ) Keep it IC. Being friendly oocly isn't a bad thing. But keep the game play in character. So many forget this and it does cause issues. No one wants to play a game with people that always complain and whine about things not going there way. I admit I am being harsh but come on please people. We are all decent people so show good sportsmanship and gamesmanship on Amia and other games.

6 ) Help each other out. It takes more time to ignore a person then it does to help them. It is in human nature to help people and it wont kill you to do so on a game. It makes it more fun for everyone when you do this and in honest it does feel bloody good to do.

7 ) Work hard. I greatly believe in working hard pays off. This will help everyone. DM's and Players all need to work hard. Then you will feel satisfied when things come your way.

8 ) Be patient. This one explains itself. Though there is a limit to patience. Both players and DM's need to be fair with this.

Anyways thats pretty much it that I can think about. I hope that was decent summery. ^.^

_________________

Izariel Skyfall - Paladin of Helm / The White Wolf

Aruilther - The Bard

+1!

_________________

Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!

In the rare chances I've had to role-play with an NPC, I've always enjoyed it. It makes the world of Amia seem more concrete, and thus more real.

Player on player role-play is more important, however. That's what makes the game feel alive, and thus more real. We absolutely need to maintain the perspective that our role-play needs to maintain the interest of the people we are role-playing with. That concept goes for leaders and subjects alike.

On the DM side of things, if there is an area that seems lacking in progressive role-play, perhaps a little help from an NPC is a good thing. It doesn't always have to be a leader NPC. It may just be an NPC that inspires a player to take the lead in a certain area. Or it may just be a construction worker who decides to work overtime so a project gets completed.

I understand it's frustrating when projects don't get completed. Getting all hell ragey on the forums rarely helps, though. If a project seems to be at a dead end that you feel must be completed for your character to role-play properly, then play another character for a while. It might be fun.

Woops! Duplicate post!

_________________
-Ryoko
I’ve been playing at a new fun sever!

https://theaccursedisland.enjin.com/mobile

Best advice I've heared all year when it comes to how to turn a diminishing community around.

_________________
-Ryoko
I’ve been playing at a new fun sever!

https://theaccursedisland.enjin.com/mobile

I wonder, in order to change the demands on DM's and the risk of plots grinding to a halt, it would be interesting/necessary to change the dynamic of the setting. In the context of shifting conflict away from characters vs npc's towards characters vs characters, city-state conflict provides a good context. But there has to be something of value to fight about. Which leads me to the next part (and it's been brought up so often it would be redundent to describe in detail): a revamp of the job/crafting system and the IG economy.

Most if not all items of note can only be found by adventuring or by trading ludicrous amounts of money for them, while crafted goods are dissmissable in their relevance. If this was inverted, in that items found while hunting or bought in standard stores (aside from the occasional DM NPC merchant like the genies) tend to be inferior to those that are crafted/enchanted, it would stimulate an IG economy. Combine with natural resources being limited ("usable" trees/rocks/whatnots only produce a finite amount per server reset depending on their location and rarity). And then conflict over resource locations (especially if there was a mechanic to "lock down" those resources for your own faction somehow) becomes meaningful.

Just a thought. Not even sure it fits here.

_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

I fully endorse a grand combat between the city states. However any change that requires scripting or excessive modupe work to even get underway is naive of where amia is.

_________________
bad man

I do not think encouraging city-faction conflicts would be a positive step in any way. Unless a server is designed for it and the community joins a server with the expectation of it, it will cause a lot of problems. It would dominate the theme of Amia for a considerable time, and force itself into roleplay across the board. That does not even scratch a long list of other issues, including demanding far more DM-time than the Reyes Plot did at any point.

When approaching discussions about these topics, you need to vet it if your suggestion fits the established genre and theme of the server. If the central theme and gameplay changes, you will begin to alienate players. You may have side-genres, but these may never change the central theme in any significant way for a long period. If you change the central theme for any long period, you are basically creating a new server that caters to a different type of community.

For instance, the central theme of Amia should never be Grim Dark Warhammer Fantasy or Gothic Ravenloft. With pushing city-factions into an event more prominent role, and encouraging city-conflict that demands even more DM attention, you begin to at the very least seriously flirt with that line.

I myself could possibly enjoy such a server. But it would no longer be Amia, and the reasons I did play on Amia and am considering doing so again, would be gone. Especially if you begin losing members of the community.

Having a central theme of "PC vs PC" would be generally healthy for the server, but it has to be able to be handled with more maturity than in the past, and how it currently does now by the playerbase. This means people need to take a step back and ask the question "What am I willing to lose, to get what I want, or eliminate my enemy?" If the answer is nothing, in my view, you're contributing to one of the largest cruxes this server has; being immortal and suffering no consequences.

I personally think more meaningful player versus player conflict might occur with non-city-states or more specifically between groups and factions, with a higher cost and purpose, from parties who are logically at each other's throats, and have something worth fighting for (i.e. knights vs banites). Even more importantly parties on both sides should be finding times where fighting might be too dangerous. Too often do I see some people short circuit RP and force PvP, before even giving someone their character doesn't like more than 30 IRL seconds to vacate the area, before turning it over to PvP, often times they will buff while threatening, making it quite clear there's barely any time for "I'm leaving". Sometimes an exchange of words; albeit hostile, can give adrenaline and rather thick RP all by itself even if someone isn't "leaving or dying." Basically, I just wish a lot more of the players on the server opened up to having more than a one dimensional view at times in this aspect.

For years, people kept drumming that fear could not be taught through mechanical means, i.e. combat, and a lot of people subsequently "did not fear the Banites." You're free to feel that way, and nobody is going to stop you, I guess. But from my perspective, launching yourself unknowingly at someone else just because you think they are criminals is kind of goes against common sense, because you should be also worried about the consequences of your actions. For example, if you die to a necromancer, how do you know they won't raise you as a Wight, cast negative energy burst on you, and send you to a village to eradicate tons of innocent people? Similarly, how does the necromancer know they won't get burned alive on a stake if they die. I just wish people on both sides took the interactions more seriously. If they did that, perhaps when it did come down to PvP, the consequences might mean more and make it worth fighting for. As an example, Nazara, my last Banite character, would kill people in Kohlingen every time she was attacked for "no reason" . Ironically, despite telling people cause and effect, somewhere in the likes of 20 NPC children of Kohlingen died to the selfish actions of paladins who were pursuing justice like vigilantes. But it shouldn't take such a crass example for you to consider these possibilities. It should just be part of your character, in my opinion; because only you- the playerbase can make conflict meaningful and bring life to the server in this facet.

Every time my PC dies, I usually set them aside for a week or more. Sometimes months, while I come up with a story on how to incorporate that loss into my death. I know many people here (in this thread specifically) are fantastic RP'ers who also have penalized themselves in ways they didn't need to. I applaud that. Keep it up... good RP spreads =)

_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

What is Amia's central theme that we ought not stray from?

_________________
bad man

In my view, having something completely DM run will inevitably dry up when the DM doesn't have time to direct all the RP. I'd like to see more push towards 100% player driven initiatives and governed bodies and hopefully in time, even factions/bases.

_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Nothing I feel I could adequately sum up in words. Game of Thrones-esque political and military conflicts and intrique between player-run cities however seems to be something different than what I feel the server was in the past.

Yeah, it did not involve anything like that. Cordor and Kohlingen didn't have to compete with eachother, since Marinsbane and Monty were friends. Conflicts between city states usually came up in the traditional good vs evil scale (the Wyrmshadow prophecy, siege of Udos, Kohl Defenders attacked Tarkuul etc.).

It is. In the old days we had a lot of DM-supported factions, but factions came up and ran their own initiatives and DMs would help set up areas to facilitate player plots and conflicts. It was the Era of mini plots and small interactions, which I personally miss. I had more fun RPing between factions than I did RPing between faction and city

_________________

"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I do like this concept!

_________________

Xalibossk, Body Tamer & Terror Of The Underdark

1+ to what BoB said.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

exactly!

I was going to put together an enormous dissertation on the state of the server and what I think can be done to soothe some of the festering wounds the community keeps picking at, but I think BoB summed it all up pretty well....so.. You only get a paragraph or two.

I think the focus should be on player factions and not cities. Focusing on the major cities(Cordor, Kohlingen, etc.) and getting characters involved in their leadership will always slow things down and create exclusive plots for 'All Star' characters. I feel like PCs are much more willing to flex their NPC Army God Mode than they were in the past when NPCs were generally kept out of conflict unless there was an absolute need for it. Sure, involving NPC armies, diplomats, etc. makes the world feel bigger.. but I think the world, as it is now, is already a bit too big for the community.

Player factions should be encouraged and I think the process for getting a small faction base should be streamlined, but it should also be possible to lose faction bases to other player factions. Right now, there is nothing any player faction that isn't tied to a city can do to contend with Wiltun, Cordor, Kohlingen, etc. Putting the focus on those places and the factions that are tied to them only makes it harder for new player factions to get going and make an impact on anything.

Many of the current city-related plots would also work fine with the old style that BurningOutBright described. Instead of the player characters having the role of the city officials, they could be the type of adventuring, mercantile, artistic, faith, etc. based communities those officials recruit and turn to for events.

That was also what the Reyes Plot catered to in the beginning, at least for me. Robert was still very much an adventurer helping out. At a certain point, the line of backing the officials grew less distinct as more characters claimed the positions of officials themselves. For me, it was at the point of the Winter War that he slipped more and more into the role of an NPC.

Events grew more restricted, as massive resources were required to tackle them or involved access to incredible amounts of information discussed behind closed doors. Backing major city projects became player initiative as building guildhalls was replaced by expanding and fortifying cities, constructing naval armadas and so on. From the ic side, this all made sense. You were trying to keep control of the events, lest it meant catastrophic consequences for your city.

But this is also often where the decisions of the development team and the dm team are very important. As players, we play our characters. The ooc implications on gameplay is not our first thought when we are in game. Especially if these develop over the longterm and as slowly as this did.

I feel if we want to turn things around, the DMs and Development Team need to know that we will accept some initial "meh" moments related to our characters or our city-faction goals we had. If they can not rely on our support for them to begin to tackle this problem, they will have their hands be bound behind their backs. But they in turn would need to get the DM Team and Dev Team fully functioning and dedicated to properly see to it. Alanna seems to have had a few good ideas to tackle really worrying problems on the DM side.

So, what exactly are you suggesting happens?

_________________
a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Try to get to the same chapter, so we can get close to the same page. Then we can actually begin to tackle details of what and how it could be done in a way that a transition would work as smoothly as possible.

The general direction I feel would be appropriate is:
- slowly transition characters out of NPC positions and have NPCs take control of overall city development,
- steer the focus back to traditional factions and away from city-factions,
- return focus to more adventuring character focused plots (be it with city-related or non-city related plots),
- and invest freed up DM Time immediately into less restricted adventuring plots.

What I would expect from the DMs during this is:
- optimize the way their team works,
- try to recruit more DMs,
- be honest, transparent and update us on progress and challenges, (like Alanna was)
- tell us what they need from us,
- allow city-faction plots (when possible) to be resolved in adventuring style,
- make sure players still feel like they can make an impact and influence developments,
- try their best for a lot of activity during the transition phase.

What I would expect from the players is:
- Support the DM and Dev team while they work on this,
- put in effort for player factions and events,
- and be tolerant that any transition will have hickups.


*General Disclaimer* My brain still feels pretty mushy from the hak-update work.

I think PCs should be able to move into whatever position they like, providing they do and succeed at the work required for such... but they should be retired then.

Becoming 'King of the Land' (or whatever) is a fine goal, but the actual play of it is far and away from what NWN, D&D, and Amia are designed for. It simply doesn't work on many (most?) levels. Most interactions are going to be with NPCs, since most of your actions as a leader have more to do with what you make other people do than what you do yourself, which requires an exponential amount of more DM interaction. It's also, simply put, way too much power for a PC. I mean, there's a list of rules a mile long about what gear or abilities are acceptable for PCs for balance reason... then they are allowed to take positions of leadership of the places that make up the very fabric of the game world? That makes no sense at all. I can certainly do a lot more damage to the world with the power of a city behind me than I can with a single +6 vorpal sword.

Now combine the above, the unfair to all increased DM attention required and the severely unbalanced amount of power, with the fact PCs get the special OOC consideration that nothing can happen to their character without their consent. I know some DMs require that consent to be loosened a bit, bit the fact remains that the server rule is that -nothing- can really happen to your character without your consent, especially as a result of mere player actions. This gives unbreakable armor to a character getting increased attention and power already...

Retiring characters is a big part of PnP campaigns, for some of these exact reasons. It IS possible to run a campaign purely about leaders and nobles, but it requires the game to be designed around that from the beginning, and (from my personal experience) an unmanageable amount of work from those running the game. And it doesn't really work for a game to be about both those leaders and the people they lead.

Adventurer factions are entirely different, as they are made up entirely of other players. That makes them both fair and manageable. (Though I'd still argue that unbreakable armor causes issues, but that goes well away from the topic at hand.)

So yeah, to the original topic of PC/NPC leaders, I say retirement is the only decent option. All the DM interaction stuff brought up just seems to me to be a result of an overly permissive decision, and holding onto a poor decision won't make things better. Maybe retirement with the option to still play the character for (limited, and by request) special occasions, or letting the player still make some decisions for the now-NPC leader. Either of those would give the players that choose that route some significant sway in the world, without game breaking levels, and give players an option to really leave a lasting mark on the module. And possibly give DMs a bit more room to breathe during large events that require multiple influential NPCs to be played.

_________________

What do you say to the players of characters who are not adventurers, who do not like adventurers/adventuring, or who have bigger goals in mind that are city-oriented? Do you tell them they are playing the wrong game?

Genuine question, nothing accusatory.

I use the term more as an easy simplification, and as the biggest chunk of the amian characters usually fall into that category. What applies to the adventurer, would also apply to the non-adventuring wizard or non-adventuring merchant.

Instead of them being the ministers of magic and finance in a massive city like Cordor, they could run the local guilds. Something akin to the Tower of Mystra or the Amian Traders and Crafters Federation. Instead of being the minister of Law, you can be the Cordor's Adventuring Guard Captain. Instead of being the First Knight of Kohlingen, you would be the Grand Master of the Triadic Knights. The type of characters those leaders might turn to.

If you want to be a journalist, recreate the Amian Paper. If you want to be a bard, host the Storytelling Union or hold regular lessons and bardic events in general. Instead of being the minister of health and public wellfare, be the ilmaterite cleric who offers free healing, and might propose initiatives every now to the ministers. Initiatives you would then tackle with fellow PCs instead of NPCs.

It is simply shifting those character concepts back a little, so that especially the incredibly powerful and complex city-states return to NPC control.

It was my backdoor goal of the Delta Mage Academy (which I'm trying to figure out how it can be salvaged after the OoC uproar it causes before it even got off the ground)--an unaligned Arcane Academy which would eventually offer magical tutelage to Cordor and other places (with grants and scholarship to study there, if anyone remembers that being the case with the old Tower of Mystra. )

I was inspired by reading the IC story of Glim's character Ranallas where he was once a young inventor who did not want to adventure, but rather did odd jobs so he could afford school and invent for a living. I thought it would be neat to have an easily accessible place from Day 1 selling basic mage equipment and it would provide funding for non-adventuring arcane folks to create. I'd give them stipends of gold, and when they finished their idea, I'd go half on having it made or scripted. And when they did, I'd have them "published" in a journal of whatever their focus was, and forum posted for everyone to see so they can get recognition and a reputation.

But alas.

_________________

"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I still think shifting control over to NPCs has flaws of its own; if players want to become ministers let them. Or better yet why not have an advisory faction which advises the ruling NPCs so players still have influence.

Player factions not associated with cities use to be something completely driven by the players. I don't see what is stopping most of you from doing it now. As long we get a few DMs shifted to pure player faction support then the ball is in the player bases court once again.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Please dear god no City of Arabel tried doing this shit and it effectively killed the server.

And fortunately there is such a server; Escape from Uncertainty which is still going strong.

My concern primarily with going the optimization route of the city-faction system, opposed to simply transitioning out of it for at the very least the major city-factions, is that I am not very confident enough would come out of it. My pessimistic expectation would be that not enough would be done, the effort would not be/stay properly organized for a united approach, and we would fall back to old habits.

You would need to come up with a plan that addresses the issues effectively, and make sure it is followed through both in a needed timeframe and in an appropriate manner. Due to my experiences as both a player and a designer, and given the many problems the current system contributes to, I simply would not take the risk on choosing that approach.

I would rather we shift back to the style that has served Amia incredibly well for years. If it works in correcting the issues we are trying to get a handle on, we can still consider how to make the type of roleplay city-factions provide available in a healthier manner. For me, it would be simply a choice to err on the side of caution and putting my coin on the direction I personally feel most confidant about.

Edit: And to elaborate, the major city-factions for me are Kohlingen, Cordor and Wiltun.

I shall simply interject that the focus of city-states has been quite irksome to me. I can see a correlation between when that started to happen and population decline.

And a decline in my general interest. Because if you are not part of those circles you are cut off from a lot of stuff.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

So, now it circles back to- do these factions (whether political or not or just groups of people) currently have adequate DM support? Or, do we have any DMs who don't feel frustration from the kickback and OOC commentary? Are people willing to wait longer without some sort of cohesion between the wait and the changes? Some acknowledgment of the frustration? Pony and Alanna suggest transparency, but thus far it's really only Burning and Alanna offering that.

I still feel it is not so simple, and that the flow of The RP Environment and the feelings are the symptoms of underlying factors. One of these Symptoms is less people (here we blame the game being old), one is the direction of the server culture (here we can blame Yossarin, right? And some blame the current DMs...), one is the volatile relationships between some parties (here we blame the players), one is confusion in who the leaders of Amia are (here we've cast blame about at it all)..

Each of these things is true, and difficult. That's why it seems emotions creep into each conversation. But even deeper, there is one thread tying it all together, and that thread is the loss of cohesion. The cause of the symptoms, as I see it. I feel as though we venture into unclear territory now and approach the "meat" of the issue, as I see it. I wish my questions were answered because I think it would've gotten there without the accusations on my intentions, and I haven't opened up too much on my exact stance because it makes me sad...

But I will, now, because Alanna has touched on it, and gotten little response, and MuseReader and others have left from it- and Bobo and I and others may be close. I see Mercedes post here about not knowing what some people speak to, and I go look at the forums and my Private Messages and still see no response to my DM queries. It could be easily found if looked after.

I'm sad because the reason you, Faded, seem to believe what you propose is based off a general idea of how one "should" RP, and how the concept of death "should" be seen in the realms. I'm sad because we're now just discussing where everything "should" go OOCly, rather than seeing each perspective on it and trying to make it work for everyone. Not that everyone can be happy, I'm not delusional, but we used to care about trying as a community.

My character has traveled to other Planes, spoken to dead bodies and spirits and has been offered glimpses into Liminal Time and A Place With No Time. She has been killed and raised, although not often. She is not as crazy as some, but, she fully understands how easy it is for her to come back and thus will not consider death or PVP the major deal some want it to be. It simply isn't. What is, is the story. With what is mechanically possible on Amia, a decent amount of compromise seems needed for a plausible (if unrealistic in our opinion) reality. Death is not always so concrete for our characters, as it is for us behind the screen, because they can learn to cross its boundaries.

Instead, what inspires me as a player of a dynamic adventuring characters, to consider perma-killing my own creations, is a reason for Samantha not to come back. She was close to perma-kill status when infected with lycanthropy. She was close when she was in a War with Arcanum. It could be a sense of giving up, of defeat. Or, on the contrary, something to hope for. Something to give her life meaning, whether it be a positive or a negative thing- and so her soul would continue onwards. There is this idea that the spirits of our characters cannot know when to stay or to move on, but, I believe they have to, otherwise why would there even be an option- a spell to raise the dead- why would there be a way not classified as evil to come back at all?

It is only considered an evil act to raise the dead 'when the soul wishes not to return.' Because the magic belief is that a soul CAN choose. Valerius recently learned this lesson, faced it head-on.

Samantha is a martyr, deep down, upon learning all this lore of her world, and don't we all feel a little that our treasured creations deserve a worthy end to their story? I don't see Audrey perma-killed. Or (the character you have that I love even more) your drow Miz'ri. I want some reason to find meaning in my character's death, as much as she wants to find some reason in her death. I have perma-killed my first character, and to do so, her death meant something to my next character. No one knows the history behind Estara and Samantha, because no one has ever delved far enough to find out, but it doesn't mean.. Well, that my characters can't understand that death isn't so final and scary. Or that I'm not willing to be serious about it. It's not that.

In the world of the Forgotten Realms, for adventurers, at least, those that make up the characters of the OoTS, and us, and the people who love to escape- in this imaginary world and life, death does not have to be- and is not- such a grievous penalty. What's wrong with believing that? There are other reasons worth writing stories over, too.

This is what I speak to. The loss of understanding as we participate in story-telling, the loss of care taken to each voice. It's in you, Faded. You have a sense of superiority in your version of what death and player conflict 'should' be. It is in the Requests forum, and how DMs hyper-process lore, though less so these days, and is in the people not answering this thread. Avoiding it. In the people staring what's most important for the community is things that "should" be done to RP. Sure, it makes sense OOCly, but I point to Yossarin's questions- what about people who enjoy the type of RP you're going to cut?

I think this is why the person I consider one of the greatest storytellers of Amia, and who seems to have expressed that Amia can no longer hold allure for his imagination- why he seems to express he has 'moved on' in some ways. It's why I say I miss Tormak, even when I was so angry with him- I knew he held storytelling dearer than all else- and that while he had strong opinions, he allowed flexibility in the story. Even if he wasn't always flexible in the OOC! Or in the cat ladies!

Anyways... Perhaps this is all another rant to some of you, perhaps it also seems over the top, but I've thought it for a long time- and I have waited- I have waited so long for a DM to own it, or the Team to admit it's becoming less flexible, or for a player to ask, "what happened?" Yossarin takes responsibility for part of it, perhaps, because it was his NPCs that first reacted to enormity and ridiculousness of adventurers and took the story down a more serious lane- but I don't recall Yossarin ever touting the opinion that specialness was wrong OOCly, or that death must be so serious. He even regrets his 'serious mode' posting, these days.

I see it now, though. I see it everywhere OOCly. In players, in DMs, in the way things are handled and ignored and the way transparency flies away in brief posts from the DMs who are brave enough to step up to the plate and talk to players, and the lack of support they in turn receive from their fellow teammates. I see it in party chats about specific characters and in Tells and PMs around what's a "good" concept. I see it in the political RP that gets only responses from certain DMs, and the ones that get ignored. I sometimes see it in myself, even, and then I hate it. I hate that I've let myself think superior attitudes because I never did before- I was happy to RP with everyone!

I only post now to respond to Burning- enough to add where I stand on RP preference, as it seems at least one DM is curious and will ask and listen transparently. I know other DMs are curious, and will do the same, but it means the most to hear one ask it- as Yossarin once did. What do I always care about most? Why is this post so long?

Because I think we've forgotten the phrase Rolling with the Punches. I'm happy to roll with your RP, so be happy to roll with mine.

For a DM expectation this means: Don't decide before I go into a cave that it's empty. Don't decide before I scry that this is how it's going to go down. Don't make a surprise NPC to interact with in a house I've broken into and would've found signs of the first time, or acknowledge the RP done and show why it didn't get noticed. Roll with it, as it happens, and as it feels right. Care enough about your players to remember what they've done and ask if you can't, or you're tired, or it's hard. If you need more information, don't assume I will offer it. You don't offer me information on the environment without making me work for it. My character is the same way. Because if you're not willing to work to understand Samantha, I don't want you playing with her.

For players this means: Power building? Sure, as long as you RP some. Social RP? Sure, as long as it's RP. You want to be political? Alright, I'll roll with it. You want to have faction conflict? Sure! You want to do it all? Yay! You want to keep coming back to life?! Alright- as long as someone is there to raise you and you accept... who am I to MAKE you perma-ed without working with you? I feel horrible for serbiris, who it was semi-forced upon, even if along RP lines.

I have questions for people that seem to make them uncomfortable because I want to question this mentality, and I always have. Where is the OOC line, and how much do we let it affect our IC interactions? I questioned it a long time ago when I was refused a request and frozen out of my own topic. I question it now, as the environment speeds down a more serious and ever-widening gap in its old culture versus it's new one.

I don't think it's about anything anyone has pointed out yet, really- I think we've all lost why we came to Amia in the first place. To be able to be a little special. Anyways, sorry for the too long post. I've also stopped summarizing for people and just hope someone else will step up to the plate of organizing all the thoughts. I ain't got much more to say. All the topics and months have built into this, in my mind.

Wow.

As many players are familiar with, one of my passions is diagnosing problems in paradigms. Trying to figure out why something has changed, or no longer working as it is. Knowing this, I find myself 100% in agreement with Pony's and Casvenx's diagnosis. It just makes sense.

It's this very interesting, but steadily malignant theme that has been developing over the course of years. We've been turning more into a city-based political sandbox with a community that originally came to Amia desiring something different.

And both player and DM actions have caused this to continue growing. It's silly to try to put initial blame on one or the other, as this is-- in my opinion-- a completely unintentional outcome. But through some relationship, as Pony suggested, between plot severity escalation and PC's seeking NPC positions that could move the necessary amount of resources to deal with the plots has indeed made for a greater reliance on DM-NPC involvement.

A whole host of problems develop from this situation:
- PC's perceive DM's as being favoritist, because 'officer' PC's get goodies. But DM's feel this to be unfair, because a majority of it is reacting to players who possess initiative (Or in worse cases, initiative in ways that mesh with server direction). This makes sense, though. PC's who enjoy the original styles of RP feel no longer relevant, PC's who work within the system of city-factions by their very nature require more DM attention in order to play with the instruments they've been given. And players who attempt to start other initiatives that are outside of this more hub-centric, city-focused play find their actions more akin to wasted effort.

- By the nature of city-focused play, a MUCH greater demand for DM attention has been placed on staff members. And, to compound this problem, as Casvenx pointed out-- our server wasn't set up for largescale City-focused Political Intrigue/Sandbox play. It's possible for a server to be designed for that, but ours isn't. So this means that DM's have an even greater demand to help move the pieces.

- Players who do not desire the City-based route are continuously frustrated that they are either ill-equipped or irrelevant, and-- in the worst case-- stop trying to create player factions as a result.
- DM's have historically been supportive of player initiative. Hell, it's the only reason that players have been able to secure such positions in the first place. However, these positions such as Minister of Law require a great deal of trust between the DM's and the player involved. Even if the DM actively determines not to take a favoritist route, at some point he has to for the sake of protecting the server against abuse (He ends up awarding the familiar, trusted player with the position because he doesn't want to see it become a matter of abuse for someone new and untested). This doesn't make the DM a bad guy-- this makes him have to choose between the lesser of two evils. If we lessened the potential positions that players could achieve, we lessen the trust requirement, and a number of other things.

I have something to add that I forgot ruffles my feathers. I've been trying to find a nice way to express something which frustrates me as a DM but it comes down to this: not everyone will have equal opportunities. You will miss out on things.

The primary reason for this is so people who have original ideas and get original things will continue to enjoy exclusivity of their quest reward, opportunity or idea. They put effort in it, they should have it.

The hard part is that it sounds like I do not want you to have something. The truth is I do not want you to have something that you did not put in at least as much effort to receive as they did, because that isn't fair. Why should they have endured a harrowing event to get their reward, only for you to come in the aftermath and try to get the same thing?

"No" is the hardest thing I have to say sometimes but it's very frustrating to me when the above scenario happens. Let people have their cake even if you don't get any of that cake. There will be more cake later if you go get it yourself and put the effort into baking it.

It's different if you show up after and they let you have some of the cake they baked. But of they specifically wanted the cake to be a precious and unique thing they aren't sharing, please respect their wishes.

_________________

"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."