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Wildcard
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 Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 1:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
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CoA's had the opposite problem of having NPCs being the designated leaders and PCs having limited roles despite attempts tried. Believe me you dont want that either
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Estara
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 1:31 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Oh, that wasn't me saying that no other places have player input, Grave. It was just me saying that gorgz/Burning's examples might not be as... easily widespread as they think. They are privileged members of the community, not necessarily on par with the rest of the folks in terms of organization, OOC/IC political capital and other things. Pointing out possible bias is a standard thing I've done lately, even if I'm not particularly invested in the issue, because it's so rarely given space. (I don't mind when places are NPC or PC run, really. It's not ever effected my RP much- it's really just about whether said people are active. That said, I did like the idea of Cordor/Kohl having multiple DMs heading them, but I'm not sure it's been working out as well as hoped thus far- Cordor doesn't go anywhere without Kobra really- Kohlingen struggles without Rigela-)
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 3:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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That is true, Sam, but I think it is quite owed to the fact that Wiltun doesn't run like Cordor or Kohlingen, which is run by a council and a theocracy respectively. The Jarldom is an autocracy, which allows a lot more room, because it has less NPCs and PCs to have to approve things. If the Jarl thinks it's a good idea, and Parrico thinks it's a good idea, then it happens.
_________________  "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 3:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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That said, Wiltun has special considerations to still give others sway -- for example, Lord Arsant Wiltun is looking for a new wife and Oilanna may have to take a husband. Both roles can be filled by PCs.
_________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 9:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Is it in poor taste to quote yourself? Oh well. NinjaClarinet wrote: Like all things in life, a balance is necessary. The vast majority of the focus should be on facilitating, as Elor put it, and simply being ready, in the client, to field any RP that happens. The secondary purpose falls to the city leaders. The NPC leadership in a settlement need to be played as though they were the DM's own PCs. They need to have ambitions, personalities, and flaws. They need to be constantly advancing their agenda each and every day.
Justicar Cystana should be constantly holding court, pushing recruitment, devising plans and goals, and -advancing- them. The same with Archmage Mherun. Every night, performing experiments, advancing the agenda. The high clergy of the major Amian faiths need to hold congregations and sermons, and push tasks and agendas on the faithful that attend. The Shadowborne family should be seeking out business opportunities, not waiting for PCs to come to them. When was the last time a PC got a letter from an NPC out of the blue, rather than having to prompt it? The personalities of the island feel very robotic, responding to input without any spark of motivation of their own. I realize that this takes a massive time commitment. Kobra did this -very- well with Cordor during the war. The Cordor NPCs were more accessible than the PCs that were supposed to be running the place! It needs to be like that with every settlement, largest to smallest, all the time. Have meetings between the DM's handful of NPCs, and have them be spontaneous. Don't predetermine how the negotiations go behind the scenes. Play them like you would a very influential PC. Some of my favorite moments as a spy or assassin would be catching two NPCs in a private dialogue in an office, that was never announced as an event, or sparked by player input. It was just organic roleplay.
Yes, it is a huge time commitment, but that's how PW DMing is done right. Some of us still remember the "golden age" of Neverwinter where citystate factions on the large PWs could reach 20+ people, with 4-5 DMs on at a time facilitating the conflict and intrigue between them. 20 vs. 20 PvP battles over a chunk of territory or resource were a sight to see. We probably will never be able to muster that kind of raw manpower on Amia, but the principles remain the same. Provide compelling (or awful!) personalities the PCs can bounce off of and interact with, and don't mind investing in, knowing the DM isn't just going to randomly stop being available for a month. DMs should be held to a very high standard of activity, positive impact, and general player satisfaction if they wish to retain their input in server direction.
In the end, it's really not hard to keep that kind of activity up, because it's -fun- and rewarding. You'll get the occasional DM that is over-attached to their NPC, but is worth the trade when it's done consistently.
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SamTheGiantSlayer
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 11:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Mar 2014
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Burningoutbright wrote: That is true, Sam, but I think it is quite owed to the fact that Wiltun doesn't run like Cordor or Kohlingen, which is run by a council and a theocracy respectively. The Jarldom is an autocracy, which allows a lot more room, because it has less NPCs and PCs to have to approve things. If the Jarl thinks it's a good idea, and Parrico thinks it's a good idea, then it happens. That's very true. A lot of the difference has to do with the political systems in place, which vary vastly from place to place depending on overarching religion, caste systems, etc. But the Wiltun way of doing things is very appealing to most of us in terms of PC-DM co-existing power roles. Its really great, in my honest opinion. But again, its correct that this might not work under a different rule of law. Again, thank you guys for all of your opinions! They've all been great reads.  _________________ Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!
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gorgometh
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 13:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Burningoutbright wrote: That said, Wiltun has special considerations to still give others sway -- for example, Lord Arsant Wiltun is looking for a new wife and Oilanna may have to take a husband. Both roles can be filled by PCs. Bahaha, good luck with that everyone.
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 14:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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gorgometh wrote: Burningoutbright wrote: That said, Wiltun has special considerations to still give others sway -- for example, Lord Arsant Wiltun is looking for a new wife and Oilanna may have to take a husband. Both roles can be filled by PCs. Bahaha, good luck with that everyone. Elwyn can marry Oilanna, she's as masculine as any man! Arsant can marry Avadon.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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Mercedes
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 14:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Good luck with that yourself. 
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 15:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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gorgometh wrote: Burningoutbright wrote: That said, Wiltun has special considerations to still give others sway -- for example, Lord Arsant Wiltun is looking for a new wife and Oilanna may have to take a husband. Both roles can be filled by PCs. Bahaha, good luck with that everyone. Shh, Gorgy. Arsant and Avadon can still have their forbidden love in private. _________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 23:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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Going to probably rant a bit here and will probably not apply to the broader picture.
About five months ago, I moved to Korea which radically changed when exactly I'm available. I could manage this fine for a bit, of course. My week days were Amia-less and any and all business was conducted on my weekends. In my particular case, that means that planning and meetings all happened on those two days when I was available at normal times and everything fun and event-wise for Cordor seemed to happen on weekdays. I missed things I'd planned and wanted to be on, I missed random events. Amia became less a job and more work. So, even on the weekends, I stopped logging in so much. I don't really know who I can contact about DM-Cordor stuff, half the time when I log in on the weekends no one who can help me is topside. Even if I wanted to, all of Cordor's NPC bureaucracy is dead so PCs were pretty much forced to stand up in place of them. Plus, Andrew was naturally fitted to pursue the role as it is what he would have done IC.
So, I feel sort of bitter toward Amia. I put very limited time into something that I never get to see bear fruit. This makes me upset when I need to log in for something that needs Andrew's or weight. In my case, it feels like I have no kind of support in anything I'd like to do, and that even if I did, I wouldn't get to enjoy any of my efforts.
Just today, I had to wrestle with myself to even log in. Literally, I rolled a d20 to see if I would or not and when I did, my stomach sank.
Do I think PCs should be leaders in cities? Absolutely - it can be a rewarding experience. But they need a reliable DM backing to do so. Lyle's time as mayor was challenging and at times stressful, but I never felt like I was alone. With Andrew, I do feel that way a lot of the time, which is only exacerbated by my very, very limited schedule.
It could just be the difficulty of coping with living in a foreign country, admittedly.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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serbiris
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 23:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Welcome to GMT +9ish, Bobo, and all the inherent perils.
_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293
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Analog Kid
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Posted: Fri, May 01 2015, 23:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 May 2010
Location: The Great White North Eh!!
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i must say, for different reasons, I'm still driven toward the same end and opinion as Bobo here. Different arena, but the same ultimate emotional outcome.
_________________
I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.
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Mercedes
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Posted: Sat, May 02 2015, 1:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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With what I have gathered through this thread and my "Stand in the place that you live" thread, I am planning an experiment. An experiment of small scale that could very well broaden based on community interaction. The bad side here is that I can't just say what it is! You'll probably know it when you see it, but bridging the PC-NPC gap just enough to motivate people into motivating themselves is another goal of mine alongside breathing life into the world in small ways.
Even if it doesn't fall the way I expect it to, it should be a fun experiment regardless.
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SamTheGiantSlayer
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Posted: Sat, May 02 2015, 1:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Mar 2014
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Mercedes wrote: With what I have gathered through this thread and my "Stand in the place that you live" thread, I am planning an experiment. An experiment of small scale that could very well broaden based on community interaction. The bad side here is that I can't just say what it is! You'll probably know it when you see it, but bridging the PC-NPC gap just enough to motivate people into motivating themselves is another goal of mine alongside breathing life into the world in small ways.
Even if it doesn't fall the way I expect it to, it should be a fun experiment regardless. Annnnd, that's exactly what I wanted to come out of this thread. Thanks for that Mercedes <3 Can't wait to be a guinea pig! But seriously, I'm astounded at how much attention this thread actually got. I'm proud to have highlighted an issue that so many of you had great opinions about. Rock on, Amia. _________________ Thats the way it crumbles ... cookie-wise!
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Mercedes
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Posted: Sat, May 02 2015, 1:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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I want everyone to know that the things you say are noticed and talked about. If it doesn't SEEM like things are occurring because of them there could be any number of reasons-- but I am a believer in gradual, moderate change over time. Unexpected change is what happens suddenly, which result from various experiments and trials.
This is what I'd call a constructive topic for its majority, and is something I and others have taken the voice of the player-base from. It's sad I can't just relay everything and tell you what we're thinking about all the time, but we are actively trying to coordinate our movements with the culture the players have created and the current roleplay setting at the time. You folks do a lot more and change more than it may seem, especially if you don't have one of those characters who is active in virtually everything; not to point any fingers. Glendil.
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Wildcard
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Posted: Sat, May 02 2015, 5:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Jan 2015
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One of the things that is really drawing me to Amia is the fact that players ultimately have the ability to run things in a way that aren't allowed on City of Arabel. I really hope this contiunes and is expanded because it lets players have a driving hand in the story versus NPCs calling the shots which unfortunately still happens a lot on the other server I play on. NwN may not be in its golden age anymore but the fact is that Amia still doing quite well as a PW when it comes to numbers and is only rivaled by maybe Ravenloft.
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Dunecat
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Posted: Sat, May 02 2015, 7:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Location: +3 GMT
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Bobo_Underhill wrote: -snip- serbiris wrote: Welcome to GMT +9ish, Bobo, and all the inherent perils. I know that feeling. ._._________________ 
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 0:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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While I do appreciate the sentiments, I'm not particularly optimistic about the future of Amia, at all. I do enjoy Amia, I truly do, but not for any DM or story-related reasons. For several months, I and a couple of people were trying to get something done. We finally did get help, but because we got no information or feedback (for at least two months) despite lots of IG gathering and forwarding of screenshots (that weren't answered), we had something sprung on us that should have come up much, much earlier but didn't because of the DM team's lack of response or willingness to work with us. We were told it was for plot reasons, which about sums up one of the reasons I have such a jaded view of the plot progression on Amia. It feels like, often times, that DM plotting supersedes what players would like to do. A few years ago, while we were doing some stuff on Caraigh, we were basically told by the DM over the place (no longer on the team) to knock it off because it was reserved for story plotting - which didn't happen for at least a year. I bring that up because we were told, OOCly, not to do anything again. We never received any kind of IC interaction or response to anything we'd done beforehand when we pressed it. It left a terrible taste in my mouth, at no fault of the poor DM who stepped up to help us. Trying to even get basic interaction has been like pulling teeth.
I should mention, I don't dislike any one - I just am not certain I like some of their priorities. One of my favorite DMs I've ever had is currently serving on the team, very admirably. I'm very lucky that I get to work with him on a regular basis. And I know being a DM is extremely stressful at times. But I have felt, as a player, that at times my efforts were being brushed off for purely OOC reasons. When a DM tells you (OOCLY) not to do a perfectly IC action because it interferes with designs, that is a problem.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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That Guy
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 0:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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I believe that Amia will stay alive and afloat as long as there are people willing to put in the effort. Not to offend anyone, and not intended as an attack to Bobo, but... if everyone decided to just give up, it would fall apart. Common sense. You get out what you put in. Of course some initiatives fall flat. Bringing up things that happened years ago and using that to prove why today isn't working doesn't help either. I'm still fairly new around here.... after 4+ years. I still see some really amazing roleplay happening, and new things coming up all the time. Sure, people leave, get bored, or just disappear. That's the way it goes. You either move on and enjoy what you have or you leave too. Me? I try to enjoy my time here, but, don't let it become a second job. I have a full time one of those already, don't need more. If it's not fun, do something else.
As for leaders... I think that having an NPC in the overall leadership position and a PC as the "acting" leader... such as we have in Wiltun, is the way to go. This way the faction is given continuity and if the appointed active leader is gone for a period of time, they can be replaced permanently or temporarily as needed by the NPC. Also... delegation will set you free, having a chain of command is SO important too.
The most important thing though.... activity. If players and DM's aren't active and responsive in a REASONABLE manner, the whole thing fails. That's pretty much the story with a Persistent World. When people stop being persistent, there is no more world.
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 1:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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I'm rather in the same ship as Bobo at the moment. I don't feel that the sentiment that you get out what you put in is particularly true, either. The team doesn't want help, doesn't acknowledge that it needs helps, and waiting entire months to get feedback on anything you attempt to do is not an equal return on investment.
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CrazyCatLady
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 3:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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NinjaClarinet wrote: I'm rather in the same ship as Bobo at the moment. I'm there with you, Bobo. One of my characters was engaging in activities that would be expected by her class. I was asked to refrain from doing so without a DM on, due to "plotline" stuff, even though these were actions that she would normally take and that could have been caught ICly by other players, leading to a lot of RP. This hindered quite a bit of her RP, and caused a bit of a "why bother" attitude. I know DMs are busy with RL and their own characters as well as all the stuff they do upstairs but yes, sometimes the delay in things does cause players to become disheartened or just give up. The 'Plotline' stuff spoken of is still on an apparent hiatus, causing that specific pc and others involved with it to just cease that course of action. _________________ 
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SkyfallingHaven
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 8:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2012
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CrazyCatLady wrote: NinjaClarinet wrote: I'm rather in the same ship as Bobo at the moment. I'm there with you, Bobo. One of my characters was engaging in activities that would be expected by her class. I was asked to refrain from doing so without a DM on, due to "plotline" stuff, even though these were actions that she would normally take and that could have been caught ICly by other players, leading to a lot of RP. This hindered quite a bit of her RP, and caused a bit of a "why bother" attitude. I know DMs are busy with RL and their own characters as well as all the stuff they do upstairs but yes, sometimes the delay in things does cause players to become disheartened or just give up. The 'Plotline' stuff spoken of is still on an apparent hiatus, causing that specific pc and others involved with it to just cease that course of action.
As far as leaders and what not goes though. The best leaders I find are ones that can work with you. They work with DM's they work with players and to do this it is I will admit hard. But there is something that I personally think people need to do a bit more. Which is creating their own fun. Heck pull some ideas randomly out of ones head and give it a go. I think my personal favorite thing playing any sort of leadership role is making up things to be done. Whether as a player leading a faction or as a DM. I think that the more you use your imagination (Which use wisely and respectfully.) the further things go. Creating fun is what we do and getting others involved can be tough and at the same time a challenge.
It does take a lot of initiative and in truth a heck of a lot of effort. Some things work, some do not. But only way we learn is by testing them out and trying. Personally I have played Amia for a while now and like most players have had good moments and bad. The highest points though were running things and getting people involved. Small things like assigning duties, setting people on patrols, working forges to make weapons in mass, full on battles, hunting together, role playing drinking in a pub. (Yes the tribal paladin likes mead.) Heck even gathering gold and resources is fun. But I admit this only goes so far and can only go on for so long. Without initiative from all sides, player, DM and well what ever side your going it wont work. It can be a permanent thing or temporary depending on how much effort is put in and how well it is received.
It will also all come down to how you chose to play. Whether you are a warrior type who likes hunting or a political type who loves playing Game of Thrones Amia edition. There should by all rights be a place for everyone. It just takes some time to find. That and some things in game change a character and player greatly. Just remember we are all here to have fun and the more we do the more we open up to our imagination and the greater the possibilities of entertainment happen. So with that my point being. A good leader inspires people to do more and lets them run with it. Work with people, have fun and just well try to have a bitchin time._________________ Izariel Skyfall - Paladin of Helm / The White Wolf Aruilther - The Bard
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Mercedes
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 12:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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If you feel you are ignored (reasonably) or have hit a brick wall with a DM, feel free to hit up another and explain. Don't just give up if there's something you'd like to do.
That said, it's not an open door for "go to daddy when mommy saif no" scenarios. It's regrettable that plotting ruined any interaction with a character OOC, but I can't really say much without knowing the details. But try not to get frustrated to the point you lose up because something got stuck in the wheels.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 13:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Mercedes wrote: If you feel you are ignored (reasonably) or have hit a brick wall with a DM, feel free to hit up another and explain. Don't just give up if there's something you'd like to do.
That said, it's not an open door for "go to daddy when mommy saif no" scenarios. It's regrettable that plotting ruined any interaction with a character OOC, but I can't really say much without knowing the details. But try not to get frustrated to the point you lose up because something got stuck in the wheels. I think others, myself included, have done this and received the response of, "You should contact X DM," where X DM is the original DM who is unavailable for whatever reason. Or been told something would be put together, with no further response. What Ninjaclarinet said resonates the most with me: Quote: The team doesn't want help, doesn't acknowledge that it needs helps I think the team may have a different opinion, but from the player perspective, that's what I see. And although things are different on the team than they were when I was there, I don't know if they are so different that that doesn't still happen. In my case, I only have myself to blame because I was too proud to seek help and a lot of players were disappointed as a result. So it isn't anyone necessarily doing anything wrong or bad. It just seems like the demands placed upon the team right now by the playerbase are more than the current team can handle.
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Elorathall
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 13:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
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From my experience when Aurelius was in a position of relative leadership, I can only agree with Bobo's sentiment. What made it even worse was that common knowledge that my character - who was at the time an officer - should have access to (how many guards actually exist in Cordor? Who does this guard report to?) was not available. It felt this kind of crucial information was never even considered.
I was once told in response to my queries: "this isn't SimCity". I disagree. Running a settlement of the complexity of Cordor or Kohlingen should be managed as if it were SimCity. That's the only way you can have consistency in your setting, and that's the only way it can be kept manageable across DM's. And to be fair, PC leaders should be expected to face the same challenges in terms of administration. Want to run Cordor? Prepare to spend the majority of your time doing IG and forum paperwork. If you or your character has no interest or ability in managing the complex dynamics and economics of a city, then fully expect everything to go to sewage. And that should be fine. And could be one hell of a good time, plotwise.
_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 14:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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I'm going to go ahead and throw my hat in with Bobo, NC, CCL, Yossarin, Skyfall and Elorathall. And really, ThatGuy, I think you're saying the same thing but just haven't felt ignored. I have a lot to say, but it's probably worth the Confessions thread! Suffice to say that when I see DM interaction these days, I get sad and want to leave instead of excited and wanting to participate. I struggle to log in. I can't even speak frankly to most of my (good) friends on the DM team because I feel unsupported and uncared for by them. Mostly due to being promised things, then ignored and then falling through the cracks over and over. I get that DMing is hard, but I know an apology would go a long way to start. After six months at one thing, I haven't even gotten that. No "wow I'm so sorry you're still waiting!" Or even a "THAT SUCKS!" Just a "you're not the only one waiting, you know." - if that's the case, shouldn't it be clear you need help? I still love Amia, too, but it's the truth. I try to look at the bright side- at least I'm not mad at anyone? Except, I think deep down I might just be disassociating from the team instead. I miss Tormak sometimes.
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 14:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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You should remember, Estara and others, that some of us avoid getting involved in yours and others interactions, because it could pose a conflict of interest for us in our own personal pc endeavors. (If we have any.)
We don't mind weighing in with our opinions behind the scenes or even going to bat for you (which we do) with guidance and direction for the other members of the staff that could be or should be assisting you, but I'm personally not putting myself in the line of fire for anyone to cry foul or conflict of interest or favoritism when something happens that (insert team name here) is not happy or content with. I may not be the only one that shares that sentiment on the team.
That's not ignoring you. That's making a deliberate and reasoned decision to not interfere where issues could make the interaction just as negative as not helping you at all.
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 14:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Understanding that logic and still feeling burnt out after months of attempts can exist simultaneously, Gorgz.
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Mercedes
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 15:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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I would like to note that some of the present team, myself included, regularly point people towards DMs with more control or expertise in a matter but have never said "No" to someone looking for more information or a path to follow. Even if you've had bad experiences please try not to take your frustrations out on DMs as a whole.
Not everything goes through, but everything that is asked to be put before more than 1 DM is logged and discussed, and I have personally picked up a number of them. I'm not tooting my own horn because I'm not the only one who does this. I understand frustration but, clearly poor handling of situations aside, we all need to be patient with eachother.
It is relatively painful to read about a lack of support and avoidance of what DM support you do see because of personal grievances some folk on the team haven't even heard of until it's aired as some apparent long running phenomena. I don't know how to apologize if you've felt ignored or wronged in some way, but honestly any disassociaton with the team goes both ways. If you shut down, get defensive, or lose hope when you work on something hard and care about it because you don't think it's being supported... well, support the team concept. There's a bunch of us up here who have never even heard about what you're doing, or perhaps there are more to these stories than are told from just one viewpoint.
It takes a village, everybody. We can get stuff done by working together.
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 15:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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It really feels like the players lack the sufficient tools to play their roles. A compiled list or database for leaders to know everything they should be it paperwork etc, ic info. Coupled with an ooc "you can do these without dm oversight, these over here though do require dm oversight"
Knowing the boundaries helps us help ourselves.
_________________
bad man
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 15:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I think the folks speaking here over the past day or so have patience in abundance, so pointing to a lack of patience is unhelpful. And when I say that I am not being accusatory, just realistic. Different players have differing levels of tenacity in pursuing what they need (I feel Dead is the best with this and seems to know exactly how much time to leave and how to "remind" without ever being rude, and without compromising how important it is to him that it gets done), but I think everyone here has pursued what they want longer than necessary. Again, this is not pointing to any DM'S personal failure or lack of care or effort. It is just pointing out the disparity in player demand and DM supply, with the reason probably being a matter of numbers and coverage. Garglemeth, I like that you are very cautious about the conflict of interests. It is why I amended my personal view of DM vs player time that I used to have. I used to feel that a DM should never have an IC presence as a player to evade those problems and to free up their time for the playerbase. I still believe this to an extent, but I acknowledge it presents some serious issues when a DM loses tpuch, and people lose touch at different rates. I like to tell myself that DMING for 6 months or a year and then stepping down to play exclusively for that same amount of time is a great balance that incidentally prevents a DM from creating a plot so big that he or she cannot wrap it up in that length of time.
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Magiros
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 15:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
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While we might need everyone and interaction is the basis of this game, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to do stuff on your own. Then again, I feel far too selfish to request a DM to make an event just for me, so I try to include other people in it. For good and bad.  Life happens for DMs and I try to help them organize events as much as I can. Alas, there is so little players can do in OOC lvl for their events. By the way, when we had arcane lecture in Winya, it was great that first DM started helping me out as I was panicking due to the time... And then the DM contacted got there and took control of the situation. While the latter could not remain through the whole thing, I think, the fact that she brought NPC there for audience made it seem like we were working with our setting. So, just to give an example that good things do happen too! I do think that we are moving to more flexible roleplaying atmosphere and DM's can do things out of the blue at times. But going from A to B is a process!
_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 17:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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Personally? I think all of our players who feel like they don't get the DM support they need are correct. I remember that being the case 100% when I played a faction leader and political brat in Cordor for a few years, fighting for the resistance. I waited for months to get things done and wouldn't get the intreaction I needed to progress the plot from our end--as a player, my character and my faction's characters and players had done everything they feasibly thought they could.
It's then that we felt it was moot to log on and deal with the IC repercussions of not having a DM after several months or being put to the wayside and ignored.
When I became a DM, I thought maybe I'd DM for the groups I was involved in to give them the support I desperately needed and wanted, but as a DM, I struggled to do it because of severe conflicts of interest and still wanting to play my character with that group.
And that is how I found myself way out in a place I'd never played in on any character when Khylaria was intending to step down from DMing and asked me to take over Caraigh, and then I absorbed Wiltun too. It was infinitely easier to DM stuff my characters had no interest in.
I still feel bad when I'm on A checking how things are and someone asks me about Cordor stuff and NPC possession, and I tell them I have no idea (to keep myself from being spread thin, I often won't keep up on Cordor, since it's huge and so is Caraigh-Wiltun) and I need to tell them no and to talk to Kobra. I will say Kobra has asked for help with organizational things behind the scenes and is doing well, but I've been slow going on writing some things he needs to progress with his NPCs.
I know some of the folks who are "outliers" to the Caraigh plot tend to be overlooked. I'm looking at you Estara. It's a struggle for me as a DM because I have no idea what your goal is except that you want information and to be involved in some kind of fluid manner. It is infinitely easier for me to think about my aligned Caraigh-Wiltun people and see goals and reasons and to respond to them quickly because I'm on the exact same page as they are.
It's more difficult when it's one person, or a few pepole just trying to break ground and then go back to what they were doing before--the exception I saw recently was with the EO players coming to Caraigh and investigating and offering aid, even though they're stationed on Amia. I can see their cute little mini faction with clear cut goals to accomplish and it involves others, even if they have to go back home, so it's easier for me to be on the same page of what they're doing.
_________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 17:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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You have identified a problem from your perspective, BoB. What would your recommended solution be, taking into account the current climate and resources of the DM Team and the players?
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 17:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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What would really help me, personally? Let me know what exact goal you have, make it your priority to know (even if you have to cut out going to meddle in other regions and plots as much, which, I know, kind of sucks), and then involve as many other PC's and players as you can, so if you're not there, there is another delegated PC who may be, who I can feed information to and include on your behalf. That is what makes the Caraigh crew successful, and the Wiltun crew successful, and the EO successful (even though they have just barely entered the region), along with commitment to the region. I can identify who they are associated with, and rely on them to contribute to the information network for when I'm not around. I have had a few players tug on my sleeve for attention, but they don't meet any of those critera: they don't have goals, they don't want it to be a priority, they aren't working with anyone, they're [probably] not going to stick around in the region and contribute to the information network. When I see that they want to just know what is going on, I direct them to the exact players and PC's to talk to and work with the get involved and meet my criteria, and I usually get met with something like "Fine, nevermind."  In a region that is really obscured in myth, stories, superstition, oral tradition and misinformation, it is really aggravating for me to have a player tell me "No, I don't want to talk to other PCs with my PC. I want direct DM attention and DM-given information" when I have no idea what your goal is, or what you exactly want, or what you exactly want to do with it, or if that information is going to be a dead-stop with you (which it will likely be if you don't want to RP with the others to learn it in the first place.) So, to reiterate: - Be committed to the region and contribute to the information network. - Have goals you can tell me about, which are clear, or are self-evident (like the EO) - Involve others! Have a group of folks aligned with clear goals and purpose, so I always have someone to reach out to. - You must RP with others in the region. Not all information will be DM-given just for you, though I will make exceptions for groups of aligned purpose with clear goals (see above). But I am not entirely unsympathetic to the casual observer, and I am working on a general catch-all basic information topic for the region for IC and OoC information, just in case.  Also, PMs are an absolutely awful way to reach me unless I specifically tell you to send me a PM. I check them and then I almost immediately forget and go back to what I was thinking about before. _________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 19:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Is that your recommended solution for things pertaining solely to you, or for the broader scope of players and Team, BoB?
I feel I should clarify that what you're referring to (in regards to me) is only a very small portion of what's contributed to the feelings I expressed here, and of which I recognize my character was a clear minority. I wish I had known the thoughts you expressed above sooner, and I think it might behoove all DMs to have personal outlines of what they prefer for things as much as they ask players to have in events with them. I also have no idea why you didn't express these things directly, but I was not speaking to Caraigh/Wiltun much at all. I was speaking to the broader scope.
On top of that, I think people such as Bobo, NC, CCL, Skyfall, etcetc. have suffered through these feelings in other scenarios, for varying time frames, and are people I consider far more well-spoken (and far less pushy/impatient than I can be- but maybe I'm making assumptions). So I would really like to hear from them more in-depth, both on what it's like for them and how these DM responses so far make them feel. I'm pretty in line with Yossarin's stance. Telling me to be patient just makes me question how idealistic or realistic we're being, and I don't mean it accusatory either. Telling me that you stay away out of personal conflict for characters makes sense logically, but still does nothing for my feelings and needs. And speaking to what you want from me as a player for your DM needs/plotlines helps me understand you better, but still does not really solve the broader scope issues- it only helps me with you, specifically. I'm curious to hear from the rest of you, though! I'll try to stay quiet for a little bit now.
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Mercedes
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 20:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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I wasn't telling people to "be patient and wait", I was saying patience goes both ways, and work goes both ways. If you want to do something cool somewhere and a DM is just not working with you at all, honestly try and put something forward to another one-- with your issue-- or to the team on a broader scale. If we don't have the information you require there is a good chance we can get it for you if you don't need it 100% on that moment: because we all don't and can't know everything, but many of us are fine and dandy with poking the sleeping bear into activity or getting it for you.
For instance: I get PMs about doing stuff on Cordor because I had a plot nearby, or... finding out information about __. I try not to say "go talk to ___" but sometimes I have to. I also add that, if they're not giving up the goods, PM me with what you need and we'll find out! Similar to what BoB said, it can be tiring to answer an onslaught of OOC questions about an npc, an event, server lore, or a region even if we do have the info. We're intentionally keeping some stuff secret and I tend to inform someone if I know what they want, and tell them the reason I can't tell them. It's usually for the good of whatever's happening! If it's an IC interest of your character or just a think they're trying to do, let me know that. Tell me why they're searching about. Your characters are allowed their secrets, too, but if you want to work WITH a DM and not simply have the DM work for you, give us something to work with and we can reciprocate.
Those things said (and before the red alarm starts going off) I'm not implying you all just ask things willy-nilly of DMs without thought or purpose. I mean to say, with patience: if a DM you need is just not doing it for you, try not to get too upset as there may be a reason lost in communication as to why this is true. Take it to another DM, or the team as a whole, and see if we can't help you do what you want to do. As far as "Supply and Demand" of DM time, I'm more than happy to jump you at random to see if you want to DO THE THING or arrange a time that benefits us both.
Hell, I've pulled other DMs to run things for you because I was busy (Thanks Corbie!) Don't let some bad experiences spoil the pot, as these are hardly solvable with paperwork, charts, and errata because when it all boils down to it: We're all people trying to make this big machine work together and we're all very, very different. It's going to be messy and a little chaotic, but that doesn't mean it can't function.
(In cases of just pure undiluted rudeness or breach of. conduct bordering mistreatment: please, bring it to someone's attention up here.)
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Burningoutbright
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 20:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Location: Where the She-Devils roam
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I can only speak for myself and my own personal style. I wasn't meaning to single you out, but rather, make it clear that I understood the problem and would try to make it so it doesn't continue as Caron prods around in Ruathym. _________________ "The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 20:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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I'm not really sure an in-depth dissertation would be anything but gas in the wind, right now. We were promised a new, player-centric Amia after the end of the Arcanum plot, and what we were given is nothing even close to that. Plot hooks -still- vanish without a trace. (Shadowscape Vampire? Delta Mage Academy?). Storylines are -still- wildly exclusive (to the point where posts discussing them now come with a disclaimer that -outright- says "don't bother unless you're part of this clique"). Responses to player-side initiatives -still- come weeks or months after I've already thrown my hands up and said "fuck it".
In the rare event that you -can- get a DM to facilitate something you're trying to do, it turns into an excuse to screw with people. DMs no longer DM to entertain the playerbase, but to entertain themselves. It is the rule, rather than the exception, for a DM to schedule a time and then simply not show up, and never offer an apology, an explanation, or even a "shit came up" in a forum PM from their phone. Players are treated more like expendable resources than other storytellers.
Staff isn't being hired for any particular experience or storytelling ability, but because they never voice any contrary opinions to the status quo. The current staff absolutely refuses to acknowledge or accept any accountability or oversight for their actions, and there are literally no safeguards against bullying, DMs overriding one another, immersion-breaking or simply bad, inappropriate, or lore-inaccurate plots, and nothing to enforce reasonable expectations of courtesy and professionalism. The staff are plainly vitriolic and demeaning towards the players in off-forum mediums.
DMs are free to be "commitophobes" and abandon all their responsibilities, and the staff is entirely disinclined to reprimand their peers or slot in replacements. They are not required to write down what they do for review. They are not required to maintain a minimum investment. They are permitted to place themselves into areas of conflicted interest, and it remains entirely an honor system (I have seen DMs possess NPCs within the same factions of their PCs. I have seen DMs create entire plot-lines DMside and nudge their factions towards it PC side, and then pass it off as "natural flow of story").
At this point, I consider the whole system from the top down to be broken and bogged down by people unwilling unwilling to change, compromise, or even discuss their shortcomings that anything past the most casual tavern RP is fundamentally impossible. I'm to the point where I actively avoid being in the same place as a DM because it is never a positive experience. My playtime lately likely reflects that. I don't really feel that discussing how this makes me "feel" is as important as it is to actually fix all the underlying corruption, if we want to preserve Amia in any semblance of a serious storytelling medium.
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Dunecat
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Location: +3 GMT
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I wish to once again agree with assertion that delays, and months of waiting, and waiting for an answer or an update, are quite aggravating, especially when such problem tends to occur consistently, with various DMs and and plots, over the past two years. Another, equally important issue, is the appearance of the fact that DM plotting virtually always supersedes what players' initiatives, with plotlines moving towards, at best, to one of a few predetermined results. Sometimes, not even that - resulting in 1 out of 1 options, or worse - plot abandonment.
As for the second to last BoB's comment;
while I do not agree with some of your judgments and elements of your approach, in addition to strongly preferring IC reasoning as opposed to OOC ones, I find your list of expectations to be extremely important, both as a clarification for future Caraigh interactions - and general DM <-> Player, as well. For example, until now, DM-offered suggestion to interact with other players was understood as unwillingness of interaction with PC, player, the plot - or any combination of thereof, not to mention possible utter unfeasibility of such.
The last notable issue I see, is not unlike second problem: appearance of the fact that no matter what players say, write or do, it will have no influence onto reality of Amia, beyond, at the very best, giving some things for DM team to consider.
_________________
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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as to avoid adulterating NC I'd like to merely state that I fully throw my stance alongside his in this thread.
_________________
bad man
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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Glad to see this discussion about leadership turned into another rant thread.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Take heart, gorgometh. I've been trying to point at the "unresolved issues" from the other thread and warn that this was going to happen, and it was bound to spill over into a discussion that was convenient. I think that had someone created a new thread specifically to address it, it would have seemed a little too much like someone posting "I believe this is so important that it deserves its own thread!" Which just makes the person sound like a dbag. And it probably wasn't brought up in the original thread for one reason: convenience. It was a natural, organic conversation that led to the "rants", and the posters didn't feel it necessary to curb themselves and post it in another thread. You were awesome at addressing the playerbase initially, and that same gusto would be a brilliant effort. To call what's been stated here "rants" in that out of hand manner, you may find, could do more damage than you want it to do. I know you take the concerns seriously. BoB, I was reading between the lines in your response to my question. Clearly, my question was fishing for a "collective" answer from the team, and you answered for yourself personally. I would probably have responded the same way in your shoes, being it is uncomfortable to respond on behalf of the entire team when, perhaps, the entire team does not share the same opinion. But your response was appreciated all the same. I don't have much of a dog in this race (I don't call it a fight for a reason, it isn't a fight for me, and we shouldn't be fighting each other. We're all good to each other and want the best.) Amia is weird for me at the moment. The last time I logged in, I was almost immediately hit by another PC who wanted me to contribute something towards a request they wanted for something material. Perhaps it was just a bad day for me, but what immediately struck me about the interaction was how materialistic and OOC oriented it appeared to be, and it reminded me of what Sunkin posted as his "brb afk away thread" post about players being more interested in the request aspect of Amia than the story aspect of Amia. It in fact left so bad a taste in my mouth that I do not believe I have logged in since. Maybe once or twice, but...only briefly. I also decided not to have a PC at home for the time being because I want a new one and the old one is crap and I just left it where it was. But also, I think NWN being "old" may have finally gotten to me. I like the community still, which is why I still really enjoy doing development work for everyone. But the game itself disappoints me. I never thought that would happen to me, a very, very casual gamer, but I think it finally has, and the allure of the community is not strong enough to make me want to log in and play, even if I could. That's not a bad thing about anyone else, just a "me" thing. To put my moderator hat on for a moment - don't let this thread suffer a biting tone that baits people into saying things they will regret. Struggle against ennui, depression, hopelessness, anger, and predispositions and work together to make something better.
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Discussing a set of grievances in a thread discussing the "Future of Amia" is not a rant, Gorgs. Dismissing us (as I'm plainly not alone) as "yet another rant" is a symptom of the systemic cultural tendency here, to marginalize anyone that doesn't see the world through rose-colored glasses. Dissenting voices are not inherently inferior voices, and the forums are literally the only medium most of us are given to express any desire to see improvement. Uncomfortable discussions still play a vital role in a non-stagnant community. Dismissal without engagement is very disingenuous and leaves many of us feeling like we're wasting our time.
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gorgometh
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 21:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Southeast (USA)
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NinjaClarinet wrote: Discussing a set of grievances in a thread discussing the "Future of Amia" is not a rant, Gorgs. Dismissing us (as I'm plainly not alone) as "yet another rant" is a symptom of the systemic cultural tendency here, to marginalize anyone that doesn't see the world through rose-colored glasses. Dissenting voices are not inherently inferior voices, and the forums are literally the only medium most of us are given to express any desire to see improvement. Uncomfortable discussions still play a vital role in a non-stagnant community. Dismissal without engagement is very disingenuous and leaves many of us feeling like we're wasting our time. ' Was neither meant as a dismissal nor an attempt to marginalize the opinion of those here. That's all I'm going to say, because it's not worth writing a dissertation and voicing my frustration in the form of a singular, biting phrase is no different than some of the things that have been said or insinuated here already about some of the team members. Bowing out from this one folks.
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AzureLuna
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 22:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
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Dunecat wrote: I wish to once again agree with assertion that delays, and months of waiting, and waiting for an answer or an update, are quite aggravating, especially when such problem tends to occur consistently, with various DMs and and plots, over the past two years. Another, equally important issue, is the appearance of the fact that DM plotting virtually always supersedes what players' initiatives, with plotlines moving towards, at best, to one of a few predetermined results. Sometimes, not even that - resulting in 1 out of 1 options, or worse - plot abandonment. The above, at the very least, is not an insinuation, it's a fact. I'm speaking as someone who has been told that assigning a temporary DM to a major settlement while a staff member is dealing with RL stuff isn't a going to happen because 'nothing happens there'. That is after I have struggled to get the personal story resolved for months and months and months. It feels as though it never occurs to the DMs that quality roleplay doesn't happen in specific places because the team requires copious amounts of RP or direct oversight to get anywhere and they never show up in the client. If you (the A Team at large) don't care about your own stories/initiatives and you don't care about our stories/initiatives, then why would you expect anyone else to invest the time? Much less invest the time without complaint or frustration.
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 23:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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I couldn't resist a little thing: I, for one, would love to hear what you have to say even if it's just reiterating someone else's stance, Gorg. Even if I disagree with you! We said this before: we're good enough friends to disagree and let it go. I hope! I'm not sure there's a way to end the recurring topics until it's all out there, on both sides...
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Lutra
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 23:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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NC raised quite valid issues and I'll only grab out one of the many points he raised. Lore-inaccurate events or inappropriate NPC controls occurred quite a lot in the past two years.
I partially considered it as a result of the big change of personnel in the DM staff since 2012-2013 and that might be an understandable result up to a certain point. It is one thing that the old DM doesn't pass much information to the new one. The DMs who were present in the IG OOC debate even admitted that they did not read the past DM events on the places they took over.
If we have to do that as players, then how come the members of the team don't have to do that? How come a DM doesn't have to spend a week (at least) to read through every background lore on this server (no, it is not an impossible thing to ask) before they can begin their work as DMs?
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, May 05 2015, 23:20 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I'd just like to say that while I have had some similar experiences, I do believe the team is making progress towards righting these sorts of things. The language of both sides might get a little mixed up at times, but I don't think anyone here is trying to point blame or fault with the team or a DM in particular. So I would caution any DM from feeling like any of this is an accusation against them. Rather, I'd chalk the expressions, maybe even venting, up to feeling like now is the time to say such things because they'll be heard. And to that same end, I'd caution players about dwelling to much on previous happenings where we might have been disappointed or let down. Fine to use them as examples and parable in how we might fix still lingering issues, but it will be harder to see them righted by continually faulting them and not encouraging them. And I'm the blackest pot talking to the kettle right now, because I fully admit, I'm still salty as hell over a few past things(and sometimes make this known to others), but who better point out how it doesn't really help? Do as I say, chillun', not as I do.
So some feel like our initiatives as players aren't respected, or at least haven't been respected in the past. Fine. What is some advice for a DM team about how to make them feel more respected? We can commiserate all we want, but I imagine from the other side it feels more like complaining and shaming. DMing was tough when it was just me and my friends on the back of engineering paper in the library; the difficulty of understanding someone's motives when they're not across the table from you, rather on the other side of a computer screen, is a magnitude higher I'm sure. So my advice is somewhat along the lines of what BoB said, but in reverse. When a player tells you what their motivation is, prod it a little bit. Ask follows ups. What is often difficult for me is that I sometimes get the feeling DMs assume a lot about my PC based on what they see alone, rather than what I might explain given the chance. Most of what my PC does is secretive, stand-offish, and usually only involves a few other characters. I have to explain his intentions on an OoC level sometimes, or DMs would have a very different view of him. So creating a dialogue where they go "Oh that's why he's doing that? Well, what are his feelings on this?" gives me more peace of mind than sending a PM or a tell explaining it into the abyss and hoping "Man, I sure hope they understood what I was going for this time."
_________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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