viewtopic.php?f=4&t=81030

I think it's a bad idea to include it under spells and/or instant death effects. If we make it an "instant death effect" (which I will explain later, it is not currently an instant death effect), this sets the precedent for:


1. Spell Mantles absorbing it.
2. Shadow Shield, Death Ward and Undeath's Eternal Foe protecting against it, allowing good-guys to once again ignore an item in a necromancer's arsenal - which is an extremely limited arsenal as it is. We already made Negative Energy Protection only a 50% base immunity rather than 100% immunity. Let's not take a step backwards just because someone is refusing to gear for Fortitude and/or unable to prevent a character from approaching them for some reason.
3. Loosening our interpretation of what spells are and what instant death is.


The arm is not a spell. It does not cast a spell. It does not impart a necromancy spell, or a negative energy damage effect, or even, in my opinion, an instant death effect like what Shadow Shield blocks. Shadow shield blocks a spell being cast on someone. In my opinion what the death touch attack does is not cast a spell on someone or shoot magic at them, instead the bone arm drains the life out of someone or corrupts them in some way by exposing them to undeath. It doesn't necessarily instantly kill them. If it were an instant death effect, the enemies that are immune to the arm such as fire giants, would not be immune to it. There would be no immunity to it that was not present in other death spells. It is a different mechanic. Moreover, magic damage resistance or immunity protects you from the arm. It makes you survive. Clearly this is not an instant death affect.

The arm does damage. It does not instantly kill you. This damage is not even 100% reliable, as some enemies are outright immune to the arm's death touch. To me, this all adds up to mean that it imparts harm and destruction or corruption to you, and that causes MOST people to die; some particularly large or hardy individuals are immune to this effect, and protection from untyped (magical) damage also allows you to survive the exposure. It is not instant death. It should not be blocked by instant death protection since it is not instant death.



*Steps down from soap box*

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Osiris Masud

I'll do my best to respond to all of your points.

1. Spell Mantles only absorb spells and spell-like abilities, so it wouldn't make much sense for them to also absorb the arm effect because no spell is being cast.

2. Shadow Shield and Death Ward provide immunity to death effects, so they really should protect against the death effect of Deathless Touch. Undeath's Eternal Foe doesn't provide any protection from death effects, as far as I know, so it wouldn't make sense for that spell to protect against Deathless Touch.

3. This isn't really about balance at all. Shadow Shield and Death Ward provide immunity to death effects. Deathless Touch is a death effect, because it's a save or die attack, so it shouldn't be able to bypass spells that specifically protect against death effects the way it does right now.

It doesn't seem to be working as intended.

Finger of Death has a damage component as well. Still a death effect.

The argument I'm seeing is that the Deathless touch ability should be blocked by Shadow Shield because it is an ability which forces a Save which if failed results in Death. Shadow Shield gives immunity to death effects. As a definition, a Death Effect is an ability or spell which has the 'Death' descriptor, it is not a spell which forces a save against dying.

Spells which are Death Effects:
Touch of Death - Touch Attack, Save or Die.
Circle of Death - Area effect, Save or Die.
Power Word: Kill - No save whatsoever, you die if your HP is under a certain threshold.

Spells which are not Death Effects which force a save against death:
Phantasmal Killer - Save or die, Fear/Mind effect.
Weird - Save or die, Fear/Mind effect.
Implosion - Save or die, no descriptors.

Saying that a death effect is a spell which forces a save against death is untrue because a third of the actual Death Effects allow no save at all. There are actually more Save or Die spells out there which aren't death effects. Deathless Touch is not a Death Effect: From what I've seen reading combat logs while playing my Pale Master, the various graft attacks count as an Evil effect as any time I smack someone with it it says that the target rolls vs. Evil.

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Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

The explanation for those spells lies in their description.

Phantasmal Killer - If you fail to disbelieve the spell, you run the risk of being scared to death. That's why Fear Immunity makes you immune to this spell. At least it's supposed to. I haven't used it in a long time, so I can't remember if it's working that way on Amia.

Weird - Basically a more powerful version of Phantasmal Killer.

Both of those bypass immunity to death magic because they're illusions effecting the mind. Death/injury comes from believing the spells can actually damage you, not from any death magic in the spell itself.

Implosion- This spell creates a vortex that tears apart anything inside. It's not actually death magic.

Deathless Touch is a magical death attack that directly affects the one that the palemaster touches.

Ninja: Finger of Death does damage on a successful save - it kills the opponent outright however and does not deal damage to do so. The death touch, on the other hand, deals damage. You can't survive a failed save on Finger of Death without death immunity no matter what. You can survive a touch from the Pale Master on a failed save if you have damage resistance. It is not an instant death effect.

Everyone I guess: I misspoke about Undeath's Eternal Foe, my apologies.

Krin:

1. Sure, doesn't make much sense; then why does Shadow Shield suddenly protect from it when it didn't before? Shadow Shield doesn't protect from vanilla Dev Crit, to my knowledge, but it's instant death. Why? Same reason it doesn't protect from Pale Master's touch (and this is a vanilla Bioware issue, I think, so it probably won't be fixed regardless, because rebuilding a Bioware ability from scratch is something that the devs usually don't do). It uses a different mechanic (in dev crit's case, cutting someone in half as opposed to casting Finger of Death on them). If I request a spell that does the exact same thing as the touch attack - deals an amount of damage equal to your HP, but it's magic damage - that is not an instant death effect, even if I call it such. It is a damage-dealing effect, and it is not a spell; ergo spellcraft should not work against it either, really. Instant death would kill you outright. You can - and I have seen people - survive the death touch attack on a failed save. It is not an instant death effect mechanically and to some degree ICly. It is a damage dealing effect.

2. See above.

3. It is absolutely about balance. It's about future balance. You can't just say "well his touch is different now, because now it's considered a spell-like instant death ability", without having weird issues come up later. Does the paralyzing touch count as a necromancy spell now? More importantly, for balance purposes... Why are we adding extra immunities? You haven't answered the fact that necromancers are fucked compared to everyone else, or at least they -were-, because most of the spells are fortitude saves, most people have huge fortitude saves, and most casters (or UMD users) have scrolls or spells to make them immune to good portion of our spells. This is not balanced despite what you think about it not working properly. It was intended for negative energy protection to completely make you immune to negative energy; and it worked perfectly fine. But, it was unbalanced, so it got changed. Balance is what you have to think of. Stop hiding behind "it's not as intended!" to justify nerfing Pale Masters. It also -is- as intended, which I will get into in a moment.


The only reasons to play a Pale Master after this nerf (if the DM's and devs take a liking to it), a supposed master of necromancy and undeath, would be for AC and the summon. There's nothing making it a useful class. It fucks up your spellcasting and we're not even allowed, according to you, to have a trump card for obnoxious meleers or casters that don't know how to immobilize somebody. 29 levels combined of wizard and Pale Master, and you get a good summon - sure - whom can be banished or Undeath to Death'd, or GR'd. The only people who would play Pale Masters after this proposed change, are people who play the class solely with 10 levels, for the AC and immunities - there would be no point in playing a true Pale Master after that. We have no abilities that people don't have easy-access counters to. An entire class and a culture of the server, Tarkuul's Pale Masters, should not be made completely useless just because you think something's not working as intended, and you got beaten by it.

Speaking of which, I have to point out... You are only bringing this up because you lost to Kaelthas in a couple duels, and once or twice I used the touch attack on you. You even sent me a /tell that you thought it was BS that I could use the touch attack on you, because you let me get close to you, even though you had Shadow Shield. Learn a different way to avoid the attack (like Greater Sanctuary or Time Stop or high Fortitude, bruh.) You don't care about balance, you just like winning at pvp. There're precisely three people on the server (Lucius, Khuul-Khum, and Kaelthas) with any decent DC on their touch attack, that I or anybody I've asked, know of. If this were a real issue there would be mobs of people playing just for the touch attack, or using it to gain some odd advantage over others en masse. That is, of course, ludicrous, as is the notion that it is broken or unbalanced. 90% of the time the arm is useless anyway because people have huge saves, and epic monsters likewise have huge saves.

Lastly, "intended" is relative. The developers for Bioware did not allow shadow shield to block the touch attack. If this were unbalanced like True Seeing, maybe it'd be important, but it's not a big deal balance-wise to leave the touch attack as-is. It is, in fact, nerfing the class significantly if we start treating the touch attacks as spell-like abilities that can be blocked by other spells or abilities, like every other ability Necromancy has (or even a good fortitude save foils necromancy, half the time.) If one wants to be protected from it, get some fortitude gear. This is a purely PvP concern. It benefits us nearly not at all in PvE or most of the time in PvP, except that I beat you with it, and now you're calling for it to be "fixed".



EDIT: You added in, that the death touch attack is a magical death effect. You are wrong. It is a damaging effect that tries to kill you. It does not have the death descriptor, as Murkoph said. Want me to make a lore reason up for why it's not?

Shadow Shield protects against attempts at someone instantly killing you.
The touch attack tries to deal lots of magical damage to you by channeling evilness and undeath into an unwilling host.


BOOM - suddenly the spell Shadow Shield works as intended, because the touch attack is not a death effect. Make up lore to support it. Mechanically and ICly, it does not just kill anybody. There are, as I said, even some creatures outright immune to it because they just are - but they're not immune to death effect spells. This tells me the Touch Attack is not just a death effect.

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Osiris Masud

So.. point by point again:


1. Dev Crit is a physical attack, not a magical effect. Shadow Shield protects against magical/supernatural death effects, not getting your head cut off by a sword.

Deathless Touch is an instant death effect. It sounds like it does magical damage in the amount of the person's HP to reflect that instant death effect, which is why people can survive it, but that doesn't change what it is. Sounds like it works the same way Undeath to Death does and that spell clearly forces undead to make a save or die, but reflects the death effect by doing damage in the amount of their HP. The way it mechanically does the insta-killing doesn't change the fact that it's a death effect. The description says the the target dies if they don't make the save.

3. I don't think this is about balance at all. Shadow Shield and Death Ward should protect against death effects. Deathless Touch is clearly a death effect..so.. I dunno. Seems pretty cut and dry. I don't see how having two spells work as intended is going to ruin the entire class. Maybe just use disjunction or damage spells to kill the PC/NPC that has a death ward up?

Unless the 'selling point' of the Palemaster abilities is supposed to be that they bypass any and all immunities, they should be subject to the buffs that protect against the things they do. I don't think it's all that big a deal. If they are supposed to be subject to those buffs and they're not right now.. they're not working as intended.


4.You're right and wrong here. This did come up because I noticed that the death attack worked through Shadow Shield in a duel Krin had with Kaelthas. I didn't send you upset tells about it. My tell was more along the lines of.. 'It works through Shadow Shield? o.0 That's weird.' And it is weird.. which is why I made the suggestion. I don't get upset about 'losing' PvP. Honestly, I really don't. Not at all. Never have, never will. The most agitated I ever get about 'losing' PvP is like.. 'Crap. GS or Timestop bugged again. Oh well.'

The duels between Krin and Kaelthas were semi-OOC because you asked me to show you the ropes of mage dueling. I'd have made this thread of I saw Deathless Touch work through Shadow Shield anywhere else. I think you're taking this a little too personally. It's not an attack on you. I'm just saying that Shadow Shield protects against death effect..so.. it should protect against Deathless Touch. That's about it.

While it's my gut instinct that DMT is a negative energy death effect (rather than one that just causes a massive amount of damage, like vanilla dev crit or indirect massive damage like implosion), I don't think it's written anywhere that it's the negative energy causing the damage. So we can make it whatever we want.

And I think MisterLich is right in that it shouldn't be countered by shadowshield or deathward. Deathward is painfully easy to get, and even shadowshield is going to always be up for every single spellcaster of high enough level (or, if not, it should be.)

There are only a handful of characters that have enough PM levels to make it work effectively, so it seems kind of shitty to change it just to screw over the 3 people who will ever use it. Max DC is, what... 26? 3/4 of the server can make that on anything but a 20. And the rest still have a decent chance of avoiding it. They only get 3 shots, and then they're fucked. I see it as kind of a Hail Mary anyway.

Almost all the PM arm things are largely useless, even for high level PMs, so adding another easy way to counter it just seems unsporting.

I don't think it's negative energy doing the damage. To me, it always seemed like it was supposed to be an at-will Finger of Death touch attack. It's an instant death effect, just like Finger of Death. Death Ward and Shadow Shield are supposed to make you immune to instant death effects...so.. It seems clear that they should protect from Deathless Touch. This isn't about adding counters as much as it is about fixing a counter that isn't working properly right now.

If someone is countering it, use damage spells? Disjunction?

I really don't see how making two spells work as intended is going to ruin the entire class.

Eh. Reversing that logic, if it's kept as it is, it's not going to destroy the balance or gameplay either. It's so rarely even an issue that the only people who ever complain about it are the one's that get screwed by it.

If people complain, it's because it isn't working as intended. Sure, it's not a major issue that needs to be addressed immediately, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be put on the list if it's bugged right now.

It is working as intended. It directly bypasses death immunity because it does NOT instantly kill you - it deals magical damage equal to your HP.

And it is absolutely about balance. Every change for the game is about balance.

I'm not taking this as an attack on me, which you mentioned; I appreciate you saying it's not an attack on me, but that's not what I was getting at. I am tired and sick and don't want to type out another long response right now... But I don't think this is a good idea.

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Osiris Masud

I don't know. There's no reason it CAN'T bypass death immunity. Other high level class abilities do it.

The assassin's murder ability, for example. You can argue, of course, that it's based on damage. But the attack is also either based on a sneak attack or critical attack ability. Palemasters are immune to both, and yet murder works (almost all of the other abilities do, too.) But you don't hear a lot about that oversight because it's not really ever an issue.

Just like the Deathless Master Touch isn't really an issue. Really all that's required to make this go away is to say the arm works by dealing a massive amount of damage from some other source. Or say it bypasses death immunity.

Or, you know, it'd be just as easy and probably MORE appropriate to change "immunity from instant death effects" to "Immunity to death magic." Technically, there are a lot of things that fall under "instant death effects" that really shouldn't be compromised by shadow shield. "Instant death effects" is kind of a bullshit catch-all that NWN put in there, but it's really vague, and is contradicted by portions of it's own system.

The magical damage is a mechanical thing. Deathless Touch instantly kills. Here's the description:

Deathless Touch
Type of feat: class
Prerequisite: pale master 10

Specifics: At 10th level a pale master's touch becomes deadly, instantly killing unless a DC 17 fortitude save is made.

Use: selected


Here is Undeath to Death

Undeath to Death
Spell level: cleric 6; sorcerer/wizard 6
Innate level: 6
School: necromancy
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: medium (20 meters)
Area of effect: colossal (10 meter radius)
Duration: instantaneous
Save: will negates
Spell resistance: yes

Description: This spell slays 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the point of origin of the burst are affected first.

Both of these attacks kill on a failed save. Both of them use damage in the amount of the target's HP to reflect the instant death effect.

And yet Undeath to Death does not have the death descriptor either.

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Osiris Masud

supernatural ability

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise and generally does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature's HD + the creature's ability modifier (usually Charisma).

FYI, the touch is listed as a SU. hope the above is true for 3.5, someone check PHD?

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

While I do see how making those spells block the arm makes sense lore-wise, I really can't say I support it. It seems like such a drastic, heavy nerf to PMs just for the sake of being pedantic.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Well, I guess that it is not that much of a "drastic, heavy nerf" for PMs. Look, all of their touch-attacks were boosted + they added a few new touch-attacks.

+ Immunity to Crit/Sneak
+ They can cast spells like full wizard (almost)
+ They can cast Epic Spells
+ Shitload of AC (+10 while taking 19lvls of PMs) - From how I am counting (probably wrong ) it is abou 59AC at top level. Quite a lot for a spellcaster with immunity to critical hits...
+ The most powerfull summon on Amia
+ All the Touch-attacks... - Level Drain, Constitution drain, paralyzing touch... At top lvl you are almost free to make it a 42-43 DC !!! (10+Int[36-38=13-14mod]+PM lvl 19) = 42-43

PMs are just... Damn powerfull right now.

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

I'm going to be honest though, as long as paladin is as powerful as it is I'm against nerfing any evil-aimed classes.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I just want to thank Silkelock for introducing me to the olala, which I will now proceed to use non-stop.

Ok, I'll try to examine this to you. It's a murder. It's a technique - not super-natural ability or spell-like ability.

Murder
(Death, Death Immunity ignored, Fortitude)
The most valuable and feared tool at the Assassin's disposal is not their famed agility or skill with blade or bow, but their knowledge of anatomy and flagrant disregard for the niceties of honorable combat. This attack leaves nothing about the Assassin's motives to question. A feint, a flash of steel from the shadows, or a careful shot: a strike made with the intent to bring their target down instantly, no matter the cost.

If you would say, that death-less touch is a unique-technique, where PM is able to tear your own heart from your chest, it would be okay to compare these two things... - but it isn't, so ... Nope.

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

I was assuming that the assassin abilities were based directly on and linked TO the death attack ability, which is a sneak attack. So you could argue, if that were the case, PM would be immune to them.

Either way, my point is that any number of reasons, some logical and some full of shit, can be given for the PMs touch to ignore death ward and shadowshield. There's no game ruling I can find on either, mainly because I'm pretty sure shadow shield exists just for NWN, which doesn't do much in the way of explaining rules or making any damned sense half the time.

It's going to come down to what the DMs decide. There's completely logical arguments for either case. At this point, we're all just of just beating a dead horse.

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Osiris Masud

Libris Mortis has it listed as supernatural as well. By definition, supernatural abilities are magical. So why wouldnt a spell that blocks magical death effects block a magical death effect?

It is a sound thought, I wonder myself why Spellcraft gives bonus to saves for spells as well and I think all this can definately be explained with:

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Palemasters are able to learn all the same spells a wizard can from 1st-9th circle and even cast epic spells (however I-IX need to be learned from scrolls) on top of the high AC they also get several immunities (Freedom, Sneak, Crit and Darkvision) and to top it all off they get the most powerful undead summon of the entire pool, which is powerful in it's own rights, not to mention a well equipped and prepared Palemaster by it's side.

The power level of a class isn't determined by it's capabilities in one aspect, but it's utility in every possible aspect. I think they're fine as they are, and as Silke pointed out. Weird hair guy with the 'Bioware' caption sums it up.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Well, then I guess there have be problem on your side. And no, I am not saying that because I do play paladin, as someone mentioned above (not directly).
I would really like to see, how someone will Turn Undead PMs WW... I do not where you live, but it is "impossible" to do so. You will not turn it even with full charisma-based 30lvl pure cleric. Simply no way! (+ The summoned undead gains +6 to Turn Resistance., via PM summons)

The fact, that people do not use other "touch attacks" than paralyze and intant death, only makes them stupid. Really, why do you think the additional touch-attacks were added? For a reason, not just for a fun, because more was added elsewhere.

Also, you say "AC/immunities are all most people take Pale Master for. It is a nice boost" - are you kidding me? You are willing to say this "loudly" on RP server? Really?

Had to get scrolls for magic: Thank god for this! You do not have CL like others, but still you can cast "any" spells like II, haste, balagarn, bigby's (all of them), LSB, GSB, Various dispells, Shadow shield, LSM, SM, GSM - should I continue?

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

I am not sure about this but if you catch someone off-guard in pvp or you cast a disjunction on the opponent, then I'm pretty sure that the bone arm will be damn good and effective. Maybe THAT effective against priests or paladins but PMs meant to have really tough time if they fight against holy people. However, mind that you can easily debuff every meele class with disjunction while you have decent AC and Crit immunity.
Paladin can easily lose his advantage after the debuff, here is the reason why: STR based cannot crit (even with knockdown, they have hard time because of the good AC and the concealment bonus), Smiter won't be able to hit you (concealment bonus and the generally crap AB due to the loss of the charisma buff), while the balanced one will remain sitting duck.

I do not know how the arm works in PvE but that is my experience from the paladin side of the PvP vs PMs

Played PM for the lore of the class. That it wants to become undead, taking a way and most likely never reaching the pinnacle they want to become. Not for being a full caster, as that is not what the class is supposed to be. If I wanted full caster, I would go wizard specialist necromancy epic focus necromancy. Now that is your full caster necromancer.

My PM was death touching balors in Abyss, was quite fun. Could melee most things in PvE.. Note that some preparation was needed and strategy, but still. The summon sure ripped everything I met. Even the greater summon mummy is rather potent in melee. Relying on deathless touch attack on PvP.. I would not count on it, but when I have such an epic summon by my side and rather good variety of immunities.. I was not that worried. Sure, some better builders more than likely could have killed me, as well full casters.. But as it is always with PvP or PvE, much relies on strategy, ability to play the game and good amount of luck with your rolls.

Deathless touch DC: 43
With greater int feat would be 44.
With greater int feat + race with +2 int would be 45.

Banshee DC: 38
AC: 64
With tower shield +5 = 69
With tumble dump = 71
With improved expertise = 81

Some builders could get in higher I think. And consider that as a RP build actually, with my feat selections.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I really don't think making Shadow Shield and Death Ward block an attack they're clearly supposed to block is going to break the entire palemaster class.

You still have full spell casting. If someone uses Shadow Shield or Death Ward, use a Breach or Disjunction to get rid of it. It's really not a big deal.

"The fact, that people do not use other "touch attacks" than paralyze and intant death, only makes them stupid. Really, why do you think the additional touch-attacks were added? For a reason, not just for a fun, because more was added elsewhere. "

The reverse is true, and Misterlich is 100% right. Why on earth would you waste your round trying to do a level drain or trying to do 1d6 STR or CON damage, when your other choices are to paralyze them or kill them outright? Even if you do succeed, I'm pretty sure those attacks ARE stopped with negative energy protection, which the other person is almost 100% likely to have running, and can be reversed with a one manner of restoration or another. They WERE added for fun and flavor. Let's be realistic here.

Personally, I'd give them all up for a zombie arm with +4 STR.

Whoah, you are raging and outright insulting people here. Get off your high horse.

1. "Problem on your side". I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I have pvp'd outside of an arena precisely once on Kaelthas (unless you count casting greater sanctuary to escape Bendir Dale, pvp.) I think you're trying to insinuate that I'm pvping poorly, or something to the effect of "you don't know how to play your class". That's just silly.

2. I forgot the PM summons get a turn resistance boost, actually. OK. That still leaves several options to dispatch it. I mean, Frugdar has beaten the winterwight on his own without any help, and he's a pure meleer - he just beat the thing to death without much trouble.

3. Really? You're calling me and other Pale Master players stupid because we primarily use the two most useful touch attacks? What the fuck is your problem? I have never used the destructive or degenerative touch attacks, and I don't think anyone else has either - they are just not useful 90% of the time. Control undead touch attack is very fun and useful when faced with PvE undead, but that's the only other touch attack besides paralysis and death, that is useful. Once again, get off your high horse, you're the one coming off as stupid here.

4. Yeah, I told you that a lot of people take PM for the immunities/AC. On an RP server. What's hard to understand about this? Have you never seen the entire subforum we have on how to build characters? Barbarian/Bard/PM is quite a nice build, and multiple people use it. You act as if there's something wrong with building a character to be mechanically good. Once more - get off your high horse.

5. Sure. I can cast haste. It lasts one minute. One minute. Wow. How underwhelming is that? Sure, I can cast IGMS, guess how useful it is with 10 or 11 caster levels and no maximize spell feat (because PM's don't get bonus feats like wizards, but I guess you'd know that since you know everything about PM's, since you play a Paladin)? I am absolutely appalled at your attitude here. Maybe you should actually go build a Pale Master and then tell me how overpowered they are compared to the rest of the server. Your lack of knowledge makes me think you don't even know how the game works. Pale Masters do not have caster levels. You get me? Bigby's is almost always useless because we have no CL, IGMS is only good if you somehow grab Maximize Spell and use up a 9th level slot for it, and use it on one single person, Timestop is not even available for them unless you take an 11th Wizard level like I did in epic levels (which cost me an epic feat to get), I mean really. You start calling people stupid and saying other people have issues, and talk like you know the class perfectly well, yet you know absolutely nothing. I didn't even talk about spell resistance before. Guess how easy it is to get past 32 SR (for people with arcane defiance gear) or God forbid, Monk or Drow SR, when you have 10 caster levels for everything but your fortitude-based necromancy spells, on a server where the normal fortitude save is in the stratosphere. Go ahead. Guess.

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Osiris Masud

Woooah. Guys, come on..

I am taking it perfectly easy, but I'm not going to act as if someone wasn't an ass. I will call them on it.

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Osiris Masud

I'mma kindly ask both halves of this discussion to chill.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

What Numbers said. It really isn't anything worth calling each other stupid or assholes for.

All I'm saying is... Deathless Touch seems to fall under one of the effects Shadow Shield and Death Ward provide protection from. Right now, it goes right through them..so.. it seems like it needs fixing. I don't see how changing that will break the entire class. Both of those counters have a counter of their own in Breach or Disjunction.

Just want to say I have the same experience. And many a time I have witnessed an unnamed Lucius palemaster fisting ( ) people to death, and not just some poor farmers, but badass maxed up dragonslayers, whilst dodging their blows with zero effort. And only in case that bitch Tymora winked at the mentioned dragonslayer and he hit the unnamed palemaster, the unnamed palemaster just laughed at the effortless, non-critical damage. And then... one touch and... game over.

And the unnamed palemaster was really not a powerbuilder too.

So yeah, I think it is only wise to make it even stronger. Right? Riiiight?

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

Easy man okay? Who's on high horse here? Definitely not me.

For me, yes, it is bad and wrong and any other word for bringing building sections on RP server, but that doesn't belong here. (My fault)

You are still arguing with a CL, as if I am absolutely stupid or what. So ready it again. "Had to get scrolls for magic: Thank god for this! You do not have CL like others, but still you can cast "any" spells like II, haste, balagarn, bigby's (all of them), LSB, GSB, Various dispells, Shadow shield, LSM, SM, GSM - should I continue?" - CL means Caster Level and yes, I used in my former post, so please... Take it easy.

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

I think you guys have a few issues here that can be helped just by splitting this up a bit. First, based on the lore regardless of mechanics or balance. Now my reading of it is in agreement with Krin that the "immunity to death effects" the mentioned spells/abilities have reads as if its meant to effect Spell (spell-like) and supernatural abilities, so basically everything under the span of "things that draw from the weave" but not against being killed in "Mundane" ways.


Secondly is mechanics, now based on that reading of the lore side I also think that the mechanics currently fail to reflect that and should likely be altered.


Finally, would doing so cause the class to become imbalanced and if so is there a more appropriate and lore fitting way to mechanically adjust the class to balance it again. (I am against fitting lore to mechanics myself so I see leaving it as is if its flawed lore wise as the last option) Now not a Palemaster expert myself so I couldn't say exactly on this.



Point being decide if what at issue should be changed and then figure out how to do it, no need to argue it all at once.

Yeah... we don't really need to give the already super-spell Shadowshiedl even more help by making it a silver bullet against a handful of people who took palemaster 10, especially when it's obvious it means "Death Spell" since it does nothing to anything else that forces save or die. It's the capstone ability of the class and has no need to be nulled by a spell that already does a ridiculously lot.

The only balancing it and AA's death arrow needs is putting them on par with Quivering Palm with their DC formulas. Both Palemaster and AA have somewhat unbalanced formulas that leave them with pretty silly high DCs above and beyond what the best monk in the world could possibly achieve and it isn't even based on a secondary stat. (DC 45+? Based on their primary stat? Really? Who thought this through?)

Drop the DC by 5 and it's reasonable and balanced.

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

I don't think its a silver bullet. Needing to use breach or disjunction to get rid of a buff before using an instant kill strike isn't going to break the class.

From a balance standpoint it's not OP. If change is needed or not should be up to the balance team, imho.

However. My two cents:

If someone went for an 18 intmod 20PM, they'd have a DC of 10+20+18= 48, which would be the highest you could get, unless something's changed and you can now get over 32 base int. Put up against the standard 30-40 Fort most people run around with, working off an average of 36 unbuffed that's a 60%(1-12 dice roll) chance of killing for heavily investing in int and PM levels instead of multiclassing in favor of something else.

That's not really OP if you compare it to my old fey necro/encahnter his Wail spell was at DC43 with the same kind of investment into feats, and unlike a full turn action, he can mord and wail in the same amount of time(when hasted), then follow it up with multiple wails until it goes trough. And he doesn't need to be point blank to do it.

Statisticly the wail spell is more powerful with the same sort of investment, assuming you can mord off the defenses (which is almost always the case, since shadowshield is number 4 on the breach list, UNLESS you're up against someone with death ward that don't loose it to the dispel on mords)

If we work off the same 36 fort average, it's got a 35%(1-7 dice roll) chance of killing each cast assuming a number of 6 wails after a mord or two have been tossed. 35%*2 in the same amount of time as the 60% with both parties hasted.

If you look at the numbers objectivly compared to some of the other ways you can instantly kill someone with a similarly heavy investment, it's simply not OP in my opinion and you can itemize against it. Plus as it's magic damage, you can reduce it as with any other magic damage source.

Plus a PM needs to be more or less point blank to do it. And if you allow him to do it without sufficient protection, you really deserve what's comming to you, just as you do if you allow a melee class with powerful knockdowns to get up close or ignore a caster bombarding you with spells etc etc etc.

It's there, work around it as you do with 50 other threats other characters have. It's far from impossible.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

I know it isn't hard to get around the Deathless Touch. Just..don't get near the PM. Personally, my character has horrible AC so I assume he's going to be murderized whenever anything gets near him. I didn't make the suggestion because I think it's totally OP and there's a scourge of PMs running around the server boning people in the face with their broken death attack.

I made the suggestion because it seems pretty clear that Shadow Shield should stop Deathless Touch. Death Ward should too. That's about it.

That being said... I'm still not seeing how fixing a counter that should already exist is going to break or severely nerf the PM class. Shadow Shield and Death Ward aren't permanent effects. They can be breached or dispelled like any other buff.

How would making PMs need to strip a buff before trying the insta-death attack break the class?

Because they don't get 1 CL on odd levels, meaning a 10 Wiz/20 PM is effectivly a 10 Wizard with higher level spells on everything that isn't necromancy. Giving his mord a 1d20+10 VS 12+CL, which means death wards cast by a CL19 Caster or above, can't be touched at all. Shadowshield would still be breached, but anything not on the breach list won't.

Also shadowshield doesn't block all instant death spells as is, mainly spells and spell-like abilities.
List here.. afaik it's a homebrewn spell made for NWN1 & 2 and it's already the single most powerful buff spell you can get, beyond haste's utility. Adding to it isn't really going to balance anything.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

On a slightly tangential note, perhaps, I would never even consider buffing Shadowshield. It's already an atrociously good spell.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

No I get the feeling it's been made because someone killed you with it.

You want a blanket immunity, in the form of a spell is already an overly-good spell (that realistically probably needs some nerfing) with a long duration that every caster has and casts anyways just so you don't die to an already rare prestige class' capstone ability that already has an attack roll AND save affixed to it?

That's not balance, that's lazy. Increase your AC and saves.

The only balancing that needs doing is to bring both Deathless Master Touch and Death Arrow inline with Quivering Palm's DC. Running around with a DC that spelunks deep to 45+ (and 5 more than QP ever could have) is a bit much. Palemaster should probably have a slightly more drop than even 5 given the fact it can be used *3* times a day,the class itself is already a very nice melee class to begin with, and it's stat based on is the primary stat of the class (unlike AA and monk who have to actually sacrifice to get their DC deathtouch up).

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Completely off topic, but I like that suggestion about Quivering Palm.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

Decreasing the DC a little bit isn't bad, but please not by 5. Then it would be weaker than Wail of the Banshee.

45 is not really possible. All three active, full-caster Pale Masters currently (Kaelthas, Lucius, Khuul-Khuum) have one bard level at least, so that's a max of 19 Pale Master (18 for Kaelthas because he has 11 Wizard).

Let's say they have a +2 INT adjustment for race.

They get to 27 INT max, 39 with gear, let's say they use one epic feat to get 40 INT - a totally reasonable and not unexpected build choice. Using three feats to get to 42 INT is a bit unrealistic probably.


So, 40 INT is a +15 modifier.

19 PM, + 10 for the base DC of the touch attack, +15 INT mod, is 44.

To get to 45, you have to have a +2 INT race, and either have 20 levels of Pale Master (which is extremely rare, I've never met someone with 20 levels of PM on the server) and a 40 INT, or 19 levels of PM and 42 INT.

That's a fuck of a lot of investment, lol, and very rare. Granted, the DC is still high, low 40's is possible on a caster PM. Let's take a more average casting PM.


No stat mod race. So, he gets 25 max base INT (18, +7 from levelups). Add +12 from gear you get a +13 modifier. This is the minimum a dedicated caster PM can get without actually just sucking at building.

Add 18 PM levels (let's pretend they built like Kaelthas, and took two other levels).


10 + 18 + 13 = 41. So that's a badly built PM, but he still gets a 41 DC on his touch attack. I concede that's a bit high.


Maybe impose a -2 to the DC, bring it down a bit; a PM with a 14-15 INT mod and epic necromancy spell focus still gets (10 + 6 + 9 + 14-15) = 39-40 DC on wail of the banshee, and that's a mass death spell, but is blocked by death immunity; as a compromise, the touch attack could be just a little higher DC (instead of a 44-45 DC on a well built PM, a 42-43 DC), and targets only one person, but instead of people being immune to it, they get the benefit of the touch attack having to hit them before it even rolls a fortitude save.


I think that'd be a decent compromise, if anything needs to be done at all. But really, yeah, touch attack is easy to block - expertise, dodge boots, haste, EMA, mage armor, cat's grace... These are easy things to get and make you unhittable by the touch attack.

Touch attack AC:


10 (base AC)
10 (EMA, you have it I think Krin)
4 (haste)
5 (dodge boots)
5 (expertise)
1 (mage armor, always helpful for +1 AC)
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35 touch AC.

My touch attack is like a +14. That means I have to roll a 20 to hit you with the touch attack; and EMA, dodge boots, and mage armor, are things you can have on yourself at all times, because they last a long time. You can Time Stop and haste yourself if you get stuck in pvp too. Let's also bring up the fact that improved invisibility already makes it a 50% miss chance for the touch attack.



There's so much you can already do to mitigate the effectiveness of the touch attack, but if you really are concerned (whoever may be reading this), a minor (think -2) penalty to the DC might be OK. I personally don't think it needs any balancing at all however.

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Osiris Masud

Going down the list here..

Gravemaskin:



I'm pretty sure the Death Ward potions everyone runs around with have a very low CL, so I don't think they'd be hard to strip with a Mords even if the PM has a low caster level. When they come up against someone that has been buffed by a high level cleric, druid, or paladin buddy of their's to prepare for the fight with a palemaster they can always use the other goodies they have at their disposal. The Deathless Touch attack isn't the only thing in the arsenal of a high level PM.

Shadow Shield being on the breach list means that they can always strip it if it's being used by someone in battle, high CL or not.



There are sound reasons it doesn't protect from instant death effects caused by Phantasmal Killer, Weird, and Implosion. The first two are illusions and the last creates a vortex that kills the target rather than directly trying to kill them with magic.

As far as I know, Deathless Touch is the only instant death effect both magical and direct that isn't stopped by Shadow Shield. That's why it seems like a bug that should be fixed.

MightNMagic:



Your feeling is wrong. I realize that there are some players on the server that do regularly get upset when they 'lose' in PvP and take to raging on the forums or in tells. I'm not one of those. I genuinely do not care about 'losing' PvP. In game PvP isn't the way I get my jollies off. My character winning a fight against another character doesn't make me feel like Fabio. In game PvP is about the story to me, just like everything else in game is.

My character loves to duel. I've been playing him that way for about 10 years. If I threw a fit whenever he lost a match, I'd be banned from the server by now.

I encountered what seems to be a bug. I made a suggestion that it should be fixed. That's it.

So.. yeah. I don't know how else to say it. You're wrong.



No, I want the spell to work the way it's supposed to. PMs aren't exactly helpless kittens, so I don't really understand all the hysteria over this. I don't care about how high the DCs can get. I don't care about how strong the summon is. I don't care that they can use Deathless Touch in Golem or Dragon form. All I'm saying is that Deathless Touch bypasses Shadow Shield when it should clearly be blocked by it.

I sure wish it worked on anyone and not just lower HD characters/creatures. Or at least equivalent - level.

On topic, fluff-wise Shadow Shield should block the PM death touch. It's not KALI MAAAAAA SHAKTIDE, it's necromantic magic like every other thing they do. However fluff-wise Shadow Shield shouldn't exist, so really it's just a balance issue and and good luck with that.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon