I decided to pull this from its original thread after giving it a face-lift and a few edit drafts. Here is the model I came up with to help with the monitoring with wealth, and wellness in Amia. The best way to understand the economy system if you are unfamiliar with economics is to read this thread as though instructions to a board game. All the things should add up reasonably and rationally, and the rules should be well defined. The micro-economics, or the 'special moves' section, I will write at a later time, as I am still working on it, but this is the overview of the Amia Economy System.
STATE: Every city state produces and imports. If we can account for production v. RP happenings, we can make something of a economap. I stole this idea a little bit from the World Campaign in Rise of Nations. When a place maintains an area, they receive the benefits from the resources there. Our map is already well drawn. What a city-state (area) produces is based on the RP principle put into making sure such a place continues to produce such. As there is lore for what villages do what and where, we have a good idea how to start. It would look something like this:
STATE-PRODUCT--BENEFIT---Index
STATE MARKET SUMMARY: Trade Influence summary (w/o benefits):
Treaty of Light: 12pts-- 12%GDP Cordor's Commonwealth: 12pts -- 12%GDP Enclave of Tarkuul: 9pts --8%GDP Jarldom of Wiltun: 8pts --8%GDP Underdark: 7pts --7% GDP Druids of the Grove: 7pts --7% GDP Myth Winya Ravana: 7pts --7%GDP Khem: 6pts -- 6%GDP Residual Osthavn: 5pts --5%GDP 363rd Layer: 4pts --4%GDP Forrstakkr: 4pts --4%GDP Frozenfar South: 3pts --3%GDP Frozenfar North: 1pt --0%GDP Neutral or unmastered territories: 17pts --16% GDP
-*= Capital State, all else colored according to Capital Area's possession. -Grey State= Neutral or unconquered territory. -Areas with Underlined Products, maintain the lead production of good/service and take a +1 to their trade level if maintaining one of these areas. -Additional Side Note: Remember that Trade Influence cannot quantify actions in the freelance and black markets.
PRODUCT- Product indexes the good or service produced or raw to an area of Amia/Ruathym. To reduce quantifying the system, the goods are set in four main categories and all goods or services fall under these four categories. The only products hi-lighted per city-state are ones that have had an extraordinary emphasis in development, as it would prove overly complex to mention every tin deposit and every shepherd's farm. Though a city state may possess many more goods or services produced within their own boarders, the allocation of where they have put time and energy hi-lights the most important and necessary markets of a city-state's economy, thus making up the index shown above. The allocation of RP to choose instead of building a naval yard in Uhm, and instead focusing on fisheries, has made Fish a prime market in Uhm, and a navy an excluded one (in comparison to the places where Naval interests are well invested.)
Naturally, the more product that one 'team' if you will, possesses in their boarders, the more their trade points increase, and thus having a bigger influence on the market. Also, if RP events call for an area's products to halt output. (For example, Bendir Dale does not currently produce Agriculture) then for the time being, Bendir Dale loses their trade points, and the entire economy suffers as a whole in result of the market failure. Bendir Dale's grossing points of Here are the four categories of goods and services:
Edibles: Edible goods are goods that feed and nurture a population. The edible products are: -Agriculture +1 -Meats +1 -Fish +1 -Water +1
Durables: Durable goods are goods that are not perishables. They are fuel to keep a population warm, as well as, clothing, infrastructure materials, fiscal alternatives. and odds and ends, which are labeled as exotics. They are: -Lumber +1 -Gems +2 -Metals +1 -Furs +1 -Textiles +1 -Exotics +1
Defense: Defensive services are sometimes required by larger city-states to uphold law and boarder security among their domain. They usually consist of large labor forces. -Military +2 -Naval +2 -Magic +2
Civics: Non-military services, or civic services, are social items that enrich the culture and well-being of a city. They are: -Arts +2 -Knowledge +2 -Health +2 -Commerce +2
Product Key: Arts- Arts create commercial prosperity and ingenuity, state receives +2 Trade Level How to increase Arts in your area: Creating a theater and having an active theater company, a bardic presence, or regular society of inspired people can make art a vital part of your state.
Agriculture- The means to growing your own food and livestock, +1 Trade Level How to increase Agriculture in your area: Most Agrarian-allocated areas put aside whole quarters or boroughs for the singular output of farm products. Cordor North, Bendir Dale, West Ceyren's Mill, and the Shrine of Eilistraee have gained agriculture points for the RP investment in those areas.
Commerce- State is a recognized hub for trade, +2 Trade Level How to gain Commerce as an area product: If your city is the direct means to most traders, if your trade halls are often filled with PCs, or if the noticeboards often highlight the most populated areas to sell their wares, this indeed fastens places like Cordor's Market Hall, and Kampo's Storehouse, as the premier location for finding trending goods.
Exotics- Unusual merchandise or outlets as well as planar imports and rare components +1 Trade level. How to delve into the Exotics market: Having a niche of unlike culture is an advantage in competitive markets, sometimes, people want to purchase the
Fish- An important trade staple of the nation is the fish soup, +1 Trade level How to make Fish a part of your state: It helps to have a lot of access to water and even more so, a dependency on fish over less hazardous and less uncertain foods, such as crops or cows. Being in a coastal location is a generous start, but creating a whole market is a lifestyle of its own.
Furs- A durable warm good for clothing, +1 Trade level How to make Furs a part of your state's product: Have a sizable and invasive population of animals, and enough hunters to make it worthwhile. It isn't enough to dress you own population in warm clothing, as it is to interest outsiders to come to buy your wool and leathers.
Gems- Precious stones with high exchange rates, +2 Trade level How to have Gems added on your state's product: The refinement of ore, stones, and gems are something land given. Build a formidable mine or invade where one may be, and start a tycoon. Some of the largest mine productions are below Barak Runedar, and just north of Endir's Point.
Health- The means to a longer living society beyond basic needs, +2 Trade level How to have Health a staple of my state: It isn't enough to have clerics on hand, but to have a whole hospice or temple dedicated to healing patients is a prized aperture of places like South Cordor and the Temple of Salandra, who's reputation goes undisputed as the leading care practioners of wounded adventurers.
Knowledge- Education is the means to empowering your people +2 Trade Level Are you seriously considering dedicating yourself to knowledge? A modest library will not do, your city state must be well-observed around the island as a leader in resourcefulness. Tarkuul's Library maintains as one of the best helpdesks for arcanists everywhere, while in the forests, for the wisdom of more ancient and archaic practices, Oakmist Vale has long tended to its generational wisdom of the land and its workings.
Lumber- Basic fuel for heat, as well as goods abroad. +1 Trade Level. Lumber is a prime material for building any city-state and warcraft. A lumber industry is a volatile one. You must have of course, a forest or so of trees and the men and tools to produce it. Being one of the most dangerous non-adventurer industries, loggers are generally tough people, and take a protective pride in their work. It requires a great deal of land and the willingness to step on Druids toes when you decide to start up a self-sustaining logging industry. Places like Guldorand have done this for years, as well as, Forrstakkr, where there is very little opposition.
Magic- More concentrated magic means more global power, + 2 Trade level To become an arcanic icon, it generally requires an arcane community, building most often times, a stable magician's tower for forum and deliberation of the magical arts, or a sizable arcane presence.
Meats- Wild meat is an important staple for the opposite of gatherers +1 Trade level To have meat become a vital resource of your state’s area: Do not construct, and let wild life flourish. When less man-made environments surround an area, nature makes revenue.
Metals- A staple for most warcraft, as well as durable infrastructure, +1 Trade Level Metals are a primary instrument into constructing a city state, walls, even roads, and some buildings all require metals. They encompass all precious metals and mundane rock and stone, to keep the index low. To harvest metal, ore, and stone, a city must have access to mines and mountains and deposit a fair amount of resource into mining these places. Brogendenstein is renowned to be the realm’s most distinguished metal craftsmen, and maintain a sturdy monopoly over the market.
Military- Great Security is always a sound investment, +2 Trade Level A necessary investment in a tumultuous world. A strong military is the make-or-break of a mobile city-state, one that takes action to secure or defend resources and lives. However, maintaining a military is not an inexpensive affair, those city-states who build a military, often forego many other Products, in the beginning, to manage a successful line or boarder. This requires a great deal of employement and training.
Naval- The uncertain waters are more certain, +2 Trade Level A different kind of line-drawer. Naval states often rely on controlling the waterways, the true highway of trade, and maintaining a fleet is something that too requires a great deal of product investment. In place of people power, one must use product power to maintain steady and stronger ships.
Textiles- Basic and fine materials for wear. +1 Trade Level Fashion’s exercise on the market goes underestimated. To maintain quality cloth and clothing for people is an important part of cultural standards in an economy, not so important for more native or aboriginal peoples, but for the common value system, clothing is a both a dignity and a means to keeping warm.Textiles require a great deal of cloth, silk, and accessorized merchants. Availability and affordability go according to where textiles compete often.
Water- A basic resource for survival, not everyone is rich in fresh water, +1 Trade Level Though not an immediately expensive resource (Where there is no water crisis) water is indeed the most important resource and in an innovative sense, a rather new product for places with sewage systems and aqueducts. Cordor’s aqueducts are some of the most innovative in all of Faerun, granting the city the title: The City of Water. Though, even they are overshadowed by fresh reserves high in the forests of Winya Ravana, a most fertile area in the Nexus Falls. Fresh water is not only important for hygiene but also for drinking, the basic component for surviving a large population. To process water, a city state must have access to fresh water; rivers, lakes, and an abundance of which.
---- BENEFITS: Consider these like achievements for showing great endurance and commitment to RPing your area’s survival. As resources are finite, and the purpose of this system is to create finitism to the Amian world, one cannot simply produce all products in one area without experiencing trade-offs. Trade-offs are the exchange of products that your city foregoes to have a quality product, a product of note. If an area has no quality to their ways of good, they are a flimsy state in any market, and by the means of trade, are most impotent. So it is important to have a focus in production rather than a smorgasbord of products. Places who are self-sustaining, by their own right, do not engage in the market at all, and lie to waste for invaders and flies to suck them dead and dry, running out of their own resources faster than a trading state would. A self-sustaining household still requires the outside market to facilitate whatever means of sustainment they may try. So, even if a state does take an isolationist approach, they overtime deplete their own resources faster and more dangerously than nations who do trade regularly. If all parties are dissolved except one party, then the last state must begin import trade with the Sword Coast, and by economic superiority, unites Amia under one people. This however is not likely to be seen in your lifetime, or the lifetime of your children’s children, as needs and wants differ extensively between Amia’s sectors, thus creating conflict. But conflict is good. It is a healthy and natural stimulus to the market that there are competing markets within a land, as this serves the allocation of goods of services to be used frugally and efficiently, prolonging Amia’s economic health. Inevitably, overtime, all resources are depleted by the market. An example would be that your computer’s processor fries, and you replace it with a new processor, and even this draws from the land the African silicon that cannot re-grow or renew itself at the rate of human consumption. Or I could point out the amount of electricity and water, hydro-electrically prepared in your area, you use to charge your laptop, or the Chilean lithium batteries that die in your mouse, or the amount of Guatemalan coffee you’ve ground up for consumption this morning. All things not growing off your own body come from elsewhere in the world, by the refinement of trade. The Us and Them argument is by way of this, is logically extinct, in the real world. There is only us and us and us. Though politics are politics are politics. Back on track. The benefits section are incentives to try and have states produce or gather space and means to produce more Product. They are clustered and designed in such a way to promote variation to a world’s economy, as variation provides for greater sustainability and market influence. However, having a benefit achieved by a state will not add trade points to the Market Summary, unless a previously uncontrolled area is made ground to produce said good. (Example: Bendir Dale occupies the Greenlake and creates a Fishery there, as well captures the Amia Forest, and earns Meat from the forest, and Fish from the Greenlake, earning the Benefit: Well-Nourished. The points are increased because Bendir Dale receives points from possessing a Meat and a Fish market, not from the Benefit: Well-Nourished.) I will list the benefits, and then I will explain how they will change the market.
List of Benefits
Well-Nourished: (Agriculture, Meat, Fish): Your state is a gastronomic goliath, they maintain such a monopoly on the market of perishable goods, that all outlaying hungry roads lead to you. Bon Appetite!
Super-Power: (Military, Naval, Magic): Your state has a very powerful military, able to move and supply assistance at a very low cost, and to use your war-arm to most effective measures. There is of course a moral cost to relying on this, but because of your militant finesse, the market swings its shields in your direction (And buys them from you too!)
Good Welfare: (Health, Water, Furs): Your people are more hearty and trying against disease, sickness, and the elements. By taking a good role in keeping your longevity high, life expectancy is known to be longer in such an area. More commoners want to live and work in your conditions.
Renaissance Wonder: (Arts, Knowledge, Commerce): Social enlightenment derives from a strong heart and a visionary mind. To give a whole state the keys to accessing this is close to divinity. Supplying the world with a Mecca for the aspiring innovators has swayed a great deal of market interest toward your state.
Industrial Complex: (Metals, Lumber, Gems): A nation of builders, of working class men and women is the backbone for a powerful economy. When a building must stand, you can supply that foundation. The great benefit of being the road makers, the wall builders, and bridge cutters, is that all roads lead back home. The market respects that.
Mercantile: (Textiles, Exotics, Commerce): A state can survive on peddlers alone if the price is right. No place better to do that than a place with great variation of durable products. By combining hands and wares into a central flowing market, your state has been recognized as a Waukeenite Paradise, and even if outside buyers don’t know what they need, they know just where to get it.
Benefits are hard to obtain because often times it requires some force and determination to acquire several outlaying areas rich enough to produce the wanted Product. Not to mention, having a mass of producing areas is harder to monitor and control. But because of a benefit’s difficulty to acquire, when achieved, there is a great result for the state it benefits. Here are the results of having a benefit: 1. Offsets Product Leader. 2. Raises/Lowers GP Cap. (5k being the lowest ceiling offer for any environment.)
1a. Offset Product Leader: if Osthavn achieves the Benefit: Industrial Complex, (Metal, Lumber, Gems) then all areas with leading production in Metal, Lumber, and Gems, do not receive the additional +1 trade point for leading the product industry. Lowering their trade influence. This is a result of the Benefit applied when they may offer the same good at a cheaper rate. In this example: The market would recognize that Endir’s Point Gems are equally desirable to Osthavn’s Gems, given their fine reputation of being a productive state. Even though Endir Point may have the highest quality, that is offset by favorable quantity. If this is confusing, please ask questions.
2a. Raises/Lowers GP Cap: States with Benefits get a +5000 cap to their merchant cap and lower trade caps by +5000 in all competitive states. The average or starting trade cap is set at a 10,000 return and get an additional 5k for every Product Leadership zone, and an additional 5k for every three products they maintain. Without Benefits applied, Trade Merchants should offer you this maximum per good, per area:
Figurative Merchant Map: Treaty of Light: Total Products: 6 Leads: 3 10,000 + 10k + 15k= Cap 35,000 Cordor's Commonwealth: Total Products: 7 Leads: 2 10,000+10k+10k= Cap 30,000 Enclave of Tarkuul: Total Products: 6 Leads: 1 10,000+ 10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Jarldom of Wiltun: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k= Cap 20,000 Underdark: Total Products: 5 Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0=Cap 15,000 Druids of the Grove: Total Products: 4 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5K=Cap 20,000 Myth Winya Ravana: Total Products: 5, Leads: 1 10,000+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Khem: Total Products: 4, Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k=Cap 20,000 Residual Osthavn: Total Products:3, Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0= Cap 15,000 363rd Layer: Total Products: 2, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Forrstakkr: Total Products:3, Leads: 1 10k+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Frozenfar South: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10k+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Frozenfar North: Total Products: 1, Leads: 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000 Neutral or unmastered territories: Total Products (Average): 2, Leads (Average): 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000
Okay. This is just the macro-side of the world's trade. A model I came up with. Next I will try to distribute the wealth accordingly with micro economics and how to adjust the market for RP adjustments. DMs can use this tool to factor in their events too, for example, Bendir Dale and the Shrine of Eilistraee are not producing Agriculture due to the dying of the land. It would make a tug on the rest of the economy as Bendir is the main gross supplier of agriculture! 3 Percent of the world's market has collapsed! These things will be addressed in detail in the next section.
Long pause, and we're back. In this section we show how the economy can be adjusted for both Benefits, (How states with serious influence affect the market) and how to adjust the system for RP happenings. Mind you I am using the model from the first post above, and that this is a figurative model mean to show an educated example, it is however not the master copy as to how the market is laid out. So please reserve comments regarding any mistakes in describing an area's production. So if you'll just look at the summaries below and we can begin again with Benefit Adjustment, see Khem below. And please refer to the keys in the 1st Post for definitions.
Aiseth wrote:
Amia Economy System
Part I: Macro
STATE-PRODUCT--BENEFIT---Index
STATE MARKET SUMMARY: Trade Influence summary (w/o benefits):
Treaty of Light: 12pts-- 12%GDP Cordor's Commonwealth: 12pts -- 12%GDP Enclave of Tarkuul: 9pts --8%GDP Jarldom of Wiltun: 8pts --8%GDP Underdark: 7pts --7% GDP Druids of the Grove: 7pts --7% GDP Myth Winya Ravana: 7pts --7%GDP Khem: 6pts -- 6%GDP Residual Osthavn: 5pts --5%GDP 363rd Layer: 4pts --4%GDP Forrstakkr: 4pts --4%GDP Frozenfar South: 3pts --3%GDP Bendir Dale: 2pts --2%GDP Frozenfar North: 1pt --0%GDP Neutral or unmastered territories: 17pts --14% GDP
-*= Capital State, all else colored according to Capital Area's possession. -Grey State= Neutral or unconquered territory. -Areas with Underlined Products, maintain the lead production of good/service and take a +1 to their trade level if maintaining one of these areas. -Additional Side Note: Remember that Trade Influence cannot quantify actions in the freelance and black markets.
Figurative Merchant Map: Treaty of Light: Total Products: 6 Leads: 3 10,000 + 10k + 15k= Cap 35,000 Cordor's Commonwealth: Total Products: 7 Leads: 2 10,000+10k+10k= Cap 30,000 Enclave of Tarkuul: Total Products: 6 Leads: 1 10,000+ 10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Jarldom of Wiltun: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k= Cap 20,000 Underdark: Total Products: 5 Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0=Cap 15,000 Druids of the Grove: Total Products: 4 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5K=Cap 20,000 Myth Winya Ravana: Total Products: 5, Leads: 1 10,000+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Khem: Total Products: 4, Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k=Cap 20,000 Bendir Dale: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Residual Osthavn: Total Products:3, Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0= Cap 15,000 363rd Layer: Total Products: 2, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Forrstakkr: Total Products:3, Leads: 1 10k+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Frozenfar South: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10k+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Frozenfar North: Total Products: 1, Leads: 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000 Neutral or unmastered territories: Total Products (Average): 2, Leads (Average): 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000
BENEFIT ADJUSTMENT
Alright. So Khem in this case has the benefit Mercantile, way to go desert dudes you play a rather effective role in the market of the realm. Recall that Mercantile is the product package: Mercantile: (Textiles, Exotics, Commerce): and so these products are going to be the ones affected in the mass market.
First we look to see if any nation outside of Khem's area of influence is a Product Leader in Textile, Exotics, or Commerce and we do find:
Exotics: Zanshibon (ouch) Commerce: Cordor (oof)
These are the ones who take a hit! Let's adjust the full market to express the benefit leader's reward. The offsets are as followed for Benefits:
a-Product Leader loses the additional +1 trade point due to competing against power. b-All competing good makers lose the addition of their good's value towards their trade cap.
I'll adjust them as designated:
1a: First Zanshibon and Cordor are gonna take a hit in the market summary. And as well, Khem is going to gain for having a Benefit:
1a adjusted map: Treaty of Light: Total Products: 6 Leads: 3 10,000 + 10k + 15k= Cap 35,000 Cordor's Commonwealth: Total Products: 7 Leads: 2 -1 10,000+10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Enclave of Tarkuul: Total Products: 6 Leads: 1 10,000+ 10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Jarldom of Wiltun: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k= Cap 20,000 Underdark: Total Products: 5 Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0=Cap 15,000 Druids of the Grove: Total Products: 4 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5K=Cap 20,000 Winya Ravana: Total Products: 5, Leads: 1 10,000+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Khem: Total Products: 4, Leads: 1 Benefit: 1 10,000+5K+5k+ 5k=Cap 25,000 Bendir Dale: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Residual Osthavn: Total Products:3, Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0= Cap 15,000 363rd Layer: Total Products: 2, Leads: 1-1 10,000+0+0=Cap 10,000 Forrstakkr: Total Products:3, Leads: 1 10k+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Frozenfar South: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10k+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Frozenfar North: Total Products: 1, Leads: 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000 Neutral or unmastered territories: Total Products (Average): 2, Leads (Average): 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000
In addition to this, other states have to compete with Khem's advantage and they too must take one point off from their Adjusted Total Products. Here is the fussy part so please pay attention. A nation cannot be staggered two-fold by another nation's market dominance. That is to say, Cordor and Zanshibon do not need to lose an additional point of their Adjusted Total Products. They are exempt from adjusting further because they are market leaders. (they still maintain that advantage given that they have put most of their resources into maintaining which.)
As well, nations who must take off a trade point will only lose a 1 point maximum from the affecting benefit nation. Example: Shadowscape makes products are Exotics and Commerce. Despite that the Benefit Mercantile effects both Exotics and Commerce and Textiles. Shadowscape will only have to adjust one less point against Khem's advantage, not one for each product effected. Let's list the affected STATES with exotics, textiles, and commerce and adjust this total now to see what changes.
-Tarkuul: Reason: Shadowscape: Textile and Exotic (Adjust -1 total trade point) -Underdark: Reason: Exotics (Adjust -1 total trade point) -Neutral Territories: Reason: Kampos, Swamps: Commerce (Adjust -1, clump Neutrals together as one figure)
1b adjusted map(assume 1a is already in effect) Recall that for every 3 products a state maintains, they gain 5k, so this effect may or may not affect a state's trade cap: Treaty of Light: Total Products: 6 Leads: 3 10,000 + 10k + 15k= Cap 35,000 Cordor's Commonwealth: Do not adjust further. Total Products: 7 Leads: 2 -1 10,000+10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Enclave of Tarkuul: Total Products: 6 -1 Leads: 1 10,000+ 10k -5k +5k= Cap 20,000 Jarldom of Wiltun: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k= Cap 20,000 Underdark: Total Products: 5 -1 Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0=Cap 15,000Does not alter market. Druids of the Grove: Total Products: 4 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5K=Cap 20,000 Winya Ravana: Total Products: 5, Leads: 1 10,000+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Khem:Do not adjust further. Total Products: 4, Leads: 1 Benefit: 1 10,000+5K+5k+ 5k=Cap 25,000 Bendir Dale: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Residual Osthavn: Total Products:3, Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0= Cap 15,000 363rd Layer:Do not adjust further. Total Products: 2, Leads: 1-1 10,000+0+0=Cap 10,000 Forrstakkr: Total Products:3, Leads: 1 10k+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Frozenfar South: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10k+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Frozenfar North: Total Products: 1, Leads: 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000 Neutral or unmastered territories: Total Products (Average): 2, (adjust average= 1.4:)-1 Leads (Average): 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000Does not affect market.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now make your charts nice and organized. Don't forget to effect the GDP Summary too! Each affected nation total loses one trade influence point in that chart. If you have forgot how trade points are calculated, refer to the first post key to see product point values. (To make it easier on you, I will break down Cordor's initial position on the previous Summary shown up above which was valued at 12 points for an example:
South Cordor- --Military, Health-- (+2 Mil, +2 HP) =4 *East Cordor- --Water, Commerce-- (+1 Wat, +3 Lead Commerce) =4 North Cordor- --Agriculture-- (+1 Ag)= 1 Guldorand- --Lumber, Metals-- (+2 Lead Lumber, +1 Met) =3 Total Points =12.
Now to adjust the effects: Only remove 1 Trade point per affected State. The affected states again are: Tarkuul, Cordor, Underdark, Zanshibon, and Neutral Territories. In Addition add +1 to Nes'ek Trade Influence Total as per benefit:
STATE MARKET SUMMARY: Trade Influence summary with benefits: Treaty of Light: 12pts-- 12%GDP Cordor's Commonwealth: 11pts -- 11%GDP - Enclave of Tarkuul: 8pts --8%GDP Jarldom of Wiltun: 8pts --8%GDP Druids of the Grove: 7pts --7% GDP Winya Ravana: 7pts --7%GDP Khem: 7pts -- 7%GDP + Underdark: 6pts --6% GDP Residual Osthavn: 5pts --5%GDP 363rd Layer: 3pts --3%GDP - Forrstakkr: 4pts --4%GDP Frozenfar South: 3pts --3%GDP Bendir Dale: 2pts --2%GDP Frozenfar North: 1pt --1%GDP + Neutral or unmastered territories: 16pts --16% GDP -------------------------------------------------- Total Trade Points: 100 *Notice how the Trade Point Total will adjust itself, shrink more often than grow to reflect the market, it also would reflect the finite result of goods and services. Beautiful!
Adjusted Market Merchant Cap Summary: Treaty of Light: Total Products: 6 Leads: 3 10,000 + 10k + 15k= Cap 35,000 Cordor's Commonwealth: Total Products: 7 Leads: 2 -1 10,000+10k+5k= Cap 25,000 Khem:. Total Products: 4, Leads: 1 Benefit: 1 10,000+5K+5k+ 5k=Cap 25,000 Enclave of Tarkuul: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+ 5k +5k= Cap 20,000 Jarldom of Wiltun: Total Products: 5 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5k= Cap 20,000 Druids of the Grove: Total Products: 4 Leads: 1 10,000+5K+5K=Cap 20,000 Winya Ravana: Total Products: 5, Leads: 1 10,000+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Forrstakkr: Total Products:3, Leads: 1 10k+5k+5k=Cap 20,000 Bendir Dale: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10,000+0+5k=Cap 15,000 Underdark: Total Products: 4 Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0=Cap 15,000 Residual Osthavn: Total Products:3, Leads: 0 10,000+5k+0= Cap 15,000 Frozenfar South: Total Products: 1, Leads: 1 10k+0+5k=Cap 15,000 363rd Layer: Total Products: 2, Leads: 1-1 10,000+0+0=Cap 10,000 Frozenfar North: Total Products: 1, Leads: 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000 Neutral or unmastered territories: Total Products (Average): 1 Leads (Average): 0 10k+0+0= Cap 10,000
Why Frozenfar Benefits from Khem: This is the magic of the economy. ICly we can say that the opportunities arise in Khem's markets for gems and jewelers and a demand of which and would get more miners working in the mines east of Chilliwyk. A pennywise Aurilite may take that as a sign to increase output and operations in those mines. But also, due to Khem's market expanding and Cordor's slowing down, there is more competition for Frozenfar Gems. The adjustment in the GDP has given Forrstakkr a spillover advantage. Nice!
There she blows. the Benefits tug, the offset of market superiority! Alas, it is not a make or break scenario unless you're in it to win it, but that is how the gold shall flow. Having a Benefit can really rearrange the power of a nation's welfare. Raising them high on the commerce bar, which essentially this is all that is measured. Where the carts are going and coming from. Who produces what, and how 'healthy' the economy is. But what about RP crises, events, Arcanum trickery! Let's see what we can do:
ACCOUNTING FOR EVENTS
Since Kohlingen is a hot topic as far as economics goes right now, let's try and factor in the a response to matters about the treaty wanting to collapse due to the cold war with Cordor being a now moot concern. Just an example to show how the market shall be effected according to a DM event, anything can happen of course really.
Let's say this becomes a factor:
Scenario: Due to the lack of support of knights and the knighthood, the values that had merited the trust and respect of the Shrine of Eilistraee and Wharftown has waned on their township leaders. There is a movement to disband their involvement in the treaty and go their own way as states. Kohlingen decides to honor the agreements at the Shrine and lets them part, but increases domesticity of the Wharftown people, which results in a freeze in the fishing market due to tensions rising while new solutions are being made. Wharftown's militia secures their own town as well as Uhm, but the fishing market does not benefit anyone during this swift and turmoils grasp for security.
Parties involved in this event: *Kohlingen- --Military, Magic-- Barak Runedar- --Metals, Gems-- (add all party territories for resource management) Wharftown- --Fish-- Uh-oh, a new state arises! But they do not produce fish during this crisis are are left unproductive... What's next!? Uhm---Fish--
Shrine of Eilistraee- --Agriculture-- Easy enough for the Shrine to simply become a neutral state. They have no foreseeable desire to control more land or expand.
So what do we economists and politicians do to measure what is happening? Well first we should certainly tally up the score as always, just plug in the alterations. Add Wharftown to the index.
Treaty of Light: Kohlingen:Military, Magic Barak Runedar: Gems, Metals
The GDP will be effected differently, and this is where it is ICly serious! Wharftown refuses to sell fish to the markets. As they have obtained 3% of the island's GDP this simply freezes. And everyone suffers as a result! And this is why it is best to resolve matters as soon as possible, adventurers.
Does everyone suffer in such an event? No. When a product is not available, in most cases the next alternative good becomes popular. If there were other fishing markets, those markets would receive a max +1 to their trade points. THIS DOES NOT AFFECT THE GDP THOUGH. The Economy will still suffer a bend at -3%. This is essentially what we call unemployment in economics. (or lack of production.)
Alternative goods are goods in the listed categories (see 1st Post on categories of goods). For Fish, the alternative goods will be Edibles:
-Agriculture -Water -Meat
Nations with -these- benefits will score a max +1 for having one or more of the alternative goods in these times. Essentially, conflicts are not always a bad thing, but the total island suffers productivity results. I think I will stop here for now,
if you want me to illustrate how alternative goods would be adjusted, I will do so on request, but the concept is the near same to adjusting for Benefits. Thanks for reading, and I hope this system is fruitful for our roleplay, if anything, to add perspective to how the economap is drawn, who is producing what and where, and how we draw our boarders. But also to illustrate a function that one groups actions can affect the total group's results and that we are not in separate worlds in this universe but on the same plane, and that this is a way to draw those boundaries closer aligned and synchronizing our efforts to make the world more dynamic. Comment away!
You asked us DMs for all of this OOC information once. Now you are going public and asking it again. As you never responded when I asked you the first time:
Why?
You can PM me your reply.
_________________ Eli Hodgewall<{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven<=={o===========> Qeelak\ | / ,
Thank you for the PM. As the team has already informed you, we will handle the economy specifics ourselves. However, if you are dedicated to the cause regardless of the outcome, knock yourself out.
_________________ Eli Hodgewall<{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven<=={o===========> Qeelak\ | / ,
One thing that stands out is your inclusion of the grove. It's not really a settlement and doesn't have an economy. It's exactly the few NPCs you see in game, living off roots and berries, and whatever PCs may be active. Druids don't trade or produce, they build a ritual site and leave it alone while they go tend to their own territories around the island.
The proportions are a little bit off, anyhow. Cordor's trade influence should be at least five times that of Winya Ravana, since 1) it's a port city, 2) it's an economic centre and 3) it has about ten times the population. Bendir Dale probably comes second, being the food basket of the island that exports grapes to the Winyan wine business, fruits to just about everyone, and wheat to a large portion of the less-fertile island. The Dale is maybe half that of Cordor. Kohlingen has a young economy and little extra production, but I suppose it's managed to gain a fair deal of hard cash.
I am not sure how you'd turn the Amian economy into a balanced game, though. The whole idea is that the island is dominated by one overwhelmingly populous centre with potential production outweighing that of the rest of it, and a cultural and military, if not economic, counterbalance on the northern tip. Compared to the Cordor-Bendir-Kohlingen axis, everything else is marginal and only a tiny fraction of their combined production.
I think the part where you assign resources to different areas is a great idea, however. It would be useful for DMs and players alike to know what areas realistically produce what, and how much. How do the Bramble Wood trees compare to those up in Guldorand? What is the most productive spot to practice fishing? Which plot of land is the most fertile for fruits, and which for wheat? We could even script in faction-specific control of areas that PCs could fight or negotiate over. Like setting up, maintaining and defending a lumber camp in the Forest of Despair, or mining the Skull Crags. Such controlled areas could passively produce job system resources into the faction's banks.
On an OOC note, "Myth Winya Ravana" is just wrong. It's fine to make the mistake IC (though Kalliniel argued against it in an article), but there's nothing unambiguous about it: the city does not have a mythal. "Myth" doesnt mean "city", it is a title that only appears in the names of elven cities with mythals. Cormanthor was renamed Myth Drannor when the mythal was created. It's a case of players trying to be too fancy and lore-savvy, and falling on their faces.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
It's a commendeble effort but I am curious what Tarkuul would be trading in. Tarkuul has no merchant fleet, few traders as far as I know and doesnt really stimulate trade except trading in lore and secrets perhaps.
Some other things that sprang to mind reading Iron's post.
I think Kohlingen has a strong economy, maybe the strongest on Amia at the moment with current events, working together with Barak and Copper Industries. The only thing that may hold Koh back economicly is their refusal to trade with certain settlements and creatures.
The economy of Bendir is in utter shambles right now with the ruined soil. Not much food is being grown and other settlements have to import food from elsewhere or grow it themselves.
Cordor is still navally blockaded by Amn at the moment (I think), that along with the civil war can't have helped trade much.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
Joined: 11 Jan 2013 Location: Riding the flow of the wind!
I actually like this quite a bit, good effort MuseReader.
My only concern with a system like this is simply how much "extra work" it will mean for the DM team when handling stuff. If it can be kept at a minimal, it would be great.
Re: Current events. I was more thinking in terms of population, trained workforce, infrastructure, and the equipment and resources to maintain a certain economy. Even if Bendir's crops were destroyed this year, they probably have the largest orchards and most fertile fields (though it strikes me that despite this common claim, there isn't much level land in game) and next year (if the issue is dealt with) will catch up in production again. Kohlingen may have recently come into a lot of wealth, but does it have the population of trained lumberjacks, stonecutters, merchants, artisans and whatever required to match Cordor in production? Its population is maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of Cordor, right? A large proportion are clergy, nobility and military, and don't really produce anything concrete.
Whatever current events shake things up, the simple fact that Cordor has, say, 3-5 trained ship builders or potters for every such in Kohlingen, not to mention the workshops and tools needed, gives them a massive advantage if and when they do put it to full use. I may slightly underestimate other settlements because I don't know what, exactly, has changed recently, but a small military fortress does not get the population and infrastructure of an old trade city overnight. Even if PCs bring in loads of cash. It's even more marked for something like Winya, which has maybe a 1000 elves who mostly loiter around, paint and sing and dance, and sometimes go kill orcs. To maintain a competitive economy, you need a large working class to exploit.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Interesting read. Though one major component I don't see anywhere is the actual trading aspect of it all. These territories might have all of these goods, but if the trade routes be they by land or sea must be safe. Caravans attacked by monsters and thieves along land, and lost to pirates, weather, and sea monsters by sea. Which coastal cities have stronger navy's. Which land territories have the safest and securest land based trading routes. The surrounding areas both in terms of inhabitants and weather can greatly shift economic power one way or the other. Looks good so far. Interested to see its development further.
Hmm... Given the revolutionary Cordorian government and it's economic strength, I'm surprised there hasn't been a grand coalition against the city.
Since the economic centre of gravity is actually in Cordor, I would honestly propose that the city should either lose some merchants due to the blockade and souring public opinion or get more high end ones - between level restrictions and gold costs it wouldn't be so ridiculous to get some good midrange gear in the city of coin outside of independent market hall traders. It would also be good if there could be either more job system NPCs or just more NPC traders without shops (for example the Cordor Market could be expanded and have a whole spice bazaar, or a textiles tradeshall) - just to add to the impression that the city is both populous and booms with the 'golden roar' of coin. When is Cordor getting a stock exchange?
There's also the matter of the racial gate bans, with regards to how it might be turning away trade - though the semi-colonial state of most of the isle means that direct pillaging of subject peoples (by adventurers who then sell their loot in Cordor) probably neutralises any impact that may have.
With regard to the comments on the working classes, how tight is Cordorian control on emigration?
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
The last time I was involved in the Commonwealth's economic related rp, Cordor was close to bankruptcy....and I'm pretty sure that it has gone worse, considering the recent events
There are also some trade that's kept an IC secret. Not even simply black market, but lots of other things. For example, I'm not really inclined to supply what Tarkuul is or isn't trading.
You dont have to Hackums! Much more fun to poke into it ic'ly.
And you're right Iron but some of those economic assets may be hurt because of current events. Some skilled workers in Cordor may have been slain in the riots and so forth. With the chaos I doubt much taxes have been collected and materials may not have been supplied as punctually as they were before. Bendir may have a grand harvest next year indeed but they first need to cure the soil and stay alive without suffering their farmers departure to other realms. As for Kohlingen I think there actually is a fairly sizeble trained workforce, mostly because of the tireless effort of Copper industries who did more then haul in the cash, I think they invested in the things you mentioned.
Just some examples. This is quite an interesting topic so far.
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
It's a commendeble effort but I am curious what Tarkuul would be trading in. Tarkuul has no merchant fleet, few traders as far as I know and doesnt really stimulate trade except trading in lore and secrets perhaps.
How current events affect the system is of secondary, perhaps tertiary concern to the system itself. They are part of the gameplay itself that modifies the numbers.
The chief problem I see with this proposal is the lack of integration into what already exists. It seems to try to manufacture new mechanics and cram them into this model, rather than manufacture a model that plugs in nicely with existing mechanics. That doesn't make it a bad idea, but it does threaten to be filed in the Pipe Dreams box.
On integration: perhaps I am not seeing the existing mechanics at all. There aren't any. I think there is little to no regulation really, besides what can be perceived as balancing tweaks with no IC consequence or explanation to the merchants, and, there is no concept of finite in the current world. Not to pick on places at all, but Tarkuul found they were running out of space, so they just summoned another chunk of island. Kohlingen quadrupled in size when it received its face lift, and Winya Ravana suddenly discovered the Sky Forest. These aren't problems. But they're elements we need to adjust to.
The system I am proposing is in place to track the growth or shrink of the world's economy. It is not a magic wand that is going to balance all our fiscal errors. It's a tool of measurement. What I can supply in the next section, is a sensible effect on the merchants/trade impacts in the areas that are involved in the world economy, an effect to the causes highlighted above.
Terent wrote:
:
To give you a short detail on the movement of trade. Trade has to be assumed to be traveling at the same rate, a perfect rate. So as for bandits, black markets, private investments, pirates, these things cannot be accounted for. Nor do they make a significant or long-lasting impact on trade per quarter. That is to say, Bandits and Pirates and Monsters oh my, are a petty concern overtime. I put a side-note in there somewhere that repeats that.
IronAngel wrote:
:
Okay, I feel I need to address the question of complexity. Though if the goal is to make things as precise as possible, as realistic to a real world setting, I would agree with you. Size you should know though does not always mean workforce. Unemployment plays a huge factor in this, even though, this too is getting off track from the system's intentions. We cannot make this a complicated machine. We cannot account for the total NPC population, and should forego them to track the movements of the economy based on the PCs, and Involved NPCs, (The DM operated efforts.) For the same reasons we have not measured the distance of the land, the average rainfall, the net weight of a Nibbler, or how many diseases are contracted from the Temple of Love every year. This is a blocky system for a blocky world, a fantasy one, a video game. So, the majority of the Products stem from the actual Player Involvement to create such industries in such areas more so than the assumed involvement of NPCs, and things we do not necessarily hear about but imagine.
I agree, Cordor is one of the few areas I agree is well defined to be the largest city (though unresting currently). The amount of initial lore that went into building Cordor what it is, defining its principles, foundations and quarters is admirable work, but there isn't a consistent amount of detail for all of Amia. Possibly mainly because DMs have Bismarked the world into sections that they supervise, and not everyone is as dedicated a writer, or even pinpoint the same specific details. What is consistent is the player involvement in such areas. The factions, great factions, that have given supplied most of the storytelling and done what they will with their characters in each of their preferred zones. Ceyren's Mill and Tarkuul are excellent examples of a player constructed environments.
Anyway. I am trying to keep matters simple, intentionally blocky and easy to follow. The other thing is, please do not consider this a final draft. This model, it is not finished. It is the basic foundation of a model to the best of my knowledge. Editing takes time and criticism, and this is just the criticism stage. Of which, I appreciate the suggestions.
Another note I would like to say, is that I cannot edit or change the initial post in this thread, the forums won't let me do so. I cannot adjust the numbers here therefore.
...but Tarkuul found they were running out of space, so they just summoned another chunk of island.
Oh totally!
First they magically found a chunk of land that happened to have an ancient Netherese temple on it, and another building identical to one in the existing Court. Then they realized they still didn't have enough room in their sandbox so they magically found -another- chunk of land that also just happened to have another ancient Netherese temple on it, as well as another tower, and another two buildings identical to the others. And those identical buildings just happen to form a roughly circular shape around the circumference of the Tarkuul landmass.
I wonder where they could have gotten that land from?
Please don't make wild assumptions and pass them off as fact to support your arguments.
*edit* I forgot to add that it took them nearly two years of RP (since the process was started when Tormak still oversaw Tarkuul) to finally work their way to getting those pieces back, also. *end-edit*
Speaking now not just of Tarkuul, I know for a fact that several IC contracts have been made between various locations and groups for specific trade agreements and that the larger settlements that have actually shown some concern about their economy, their DMs make regular reports to the players therein about the progress, strength and weaknesses of their IC economy.
Is there room for improvement, yes. But stating that nothing currently exists in place is downright false.
Well okay. Then with that in mind, then I imagine, a very small percentage of the player base has a general transcript of the working economy, or at least one part of it, with no comparing numbers. I certainly did not have anything to go off of, and recognizing that and that for others, I started this model. But that there are no available figures is grounds to say there are no visible mechanics, that I knew of.
Also, I was being facetious about the landmass thing. It's okay.
Commendable effort! I have nothing to add about the subject other then the fact that I like the idea but... It's not complex enough. Amia is simplified comparing to IRL, but this suggestion doesn't hit home in that apartment
Good job though! It feels like you do market economy for a living
I've been working harder than a gut shot bitch wolf dog carrying nine sucking pups and a number 4 trap up a iced hill in the middle of a January Wisconsin freeze with a mouth full of porcupine quills. And it's colder than a well digger's ass. I will try to get working on this the next couple of days
And now I can safely say this is mostly complete, the foundation is built and you can see for yourself! Thanks for being patient while I made this system work properly.
Yes you are right. I am fatigued though. Four hours today is enough work, I will pick this up to continue more, for now I am opening it up to discussion.
Things like Military and Navy confer a political benefit, yes, both are however an economic detriment. These are ruinously expensive things to operate, bought to protect preexisting economic investments. Every man in armor is one less man working the fields or otherwise contributing to the actual economic output of the city. On top of that, the government must feed and equip these men while they serve, which draws further resources away which could be invested into economic growth.
Your model does not account for this, and simply plugs massive military expenditure in as a benefit without providing any downside. Assuming you're a rogue state with a for profit army for hire it might make sense, but otherwise it's just not realistic.
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Ego680 wrote:
Things like Military and Navy confer a political benefit, yes, both are however an economic detriment. These are ruinously expensive things to operate, bought to protect preexisting economic investments. Every man in armor is one less man working the fields or otherwise contributing to the actual economic output of the city. On top of that, the government must feed and equip these men while they serve, which draws further resources away which could be invested into economic growth.
Your model does not account for this, and simply plugs massive military expenditure in as a benefit without providing any downside. Assuming you're a rogue state with a for profit army for hire it might make sense, but otherwise it's just not realistic.
It is for the navy to a large extent. For the medieval and renaissance Republic of Venice the trade fleet and the navy were pretty much the same, and the city states dominance over maritime trade relied heavily on the ability of its arsenal to produce ships for use in both trade and war. The difference between trade and war was sometimes not that clear cut either.
If Cordor is considered a maritime city state, having a large navy is an essential part of... well... existing and could easily be considered an economic advantage of the greatest caliber, assuming they can use the same ships to carry both trade goods and soldiers.
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
Navy I would be more flexible on yes, however we've established a clear distinction on Amia between massive expensive purpose built warships and civilian ships, so Naval I would think refers directly to the military aspect only. Warships are hilariously expensive, and require whole forests worth of oak to build, you can't have them without a preexisting economic base to support it.
I would also argue that the navy provides the political benefit of keeping the trade lines stable, rather than being an economic benefit in and of itself.
I just dunno what to call Kohlingen's range of influence, that is essentially what the Treat of Light is in this case.
On military, navy, magic. You have to see commerce in a bigger picture than just silver and gold to see what I am aiming at with this. The value of wealth is not in how much gold they have, but what resources they are wealthy in. A large military can influence the direction of commerce simply by being recognized, as well can a massive armada. As I described in another post, commerce is not the measurement of gold per capita, but more like interaction per capita, which resources speak volume, what do people want that we have. Or use what you got to make things happen.(Though too I have provided a means to capping gold per state)
What I haven't provided is a distinction between what is a note-worthy navy and what is not a noteworthy navy. Intentionally I haven't, because that is actually for the DMs to decide when the Navy is benefiting the society. Other states -have- navys, a lot of them do, but not everyone can make shiprunning an art that gives back. Just creating this model with that in mind,
I have recognized the Silver Dragons in their many campaigns are certainly a force of influence. A very powerful military. Cordor has had a military, but given recent downfalls and recessive behaviors, I would not give them the 'Leader' acquistion of military. It isn't that strong, noteworthy though! (As there is divisions even beyond the walls of Cordor) but unequal to Kohlingen's main force. That's just the blues of it.
Likewise, Wiltun just -does- the ocean. Despite that Tarkuul and Kohlingen and Cordor have ships, and could potentially win a battle against Wiltun at sea, that's not the point. Wiltun has chosen to make ships a huge essence of their legacy. Guns > Butter.
It's a perspective you have to see as a raw material at that point. An infrastructure. All the places I have looked into and thought these were good choices in how they're designated. It does not mean the industries do not exist if they are unlabeled, they are just marginally unimpressive to other leaders. It would become a too complicated system otherwise.
What is also important to note in the case of Kohlingen, is that the city has not only gained a capable arcane community. It has also gained the exiled cordorian nobility. These were the affluent and influential merchant families, who have the buisness contacts, experience and know-how. While Cordor lost many highly capable buisnessmen and women that were central to Cordor's mercantile success, Kohlingen has gained them. And they have had time to rebuild a great deal of what they had lost.
On top of that, Kohlingen has now become a member of the Lord's Alliance. They have a very beneficial trade agreement with Waterdeep. They build a portal to Brogendenstein, and the dwarves are incredibly close allies and trading partners. They have expanded their infrastructure, housing, agriculture, security, and naval force. In the last five years, Kohlingen has gained the basic foundation that could easily make them the mercantile power of the region in the future. Especially given that Cordor has lost many of it's most capable buisness, went through ordeal after ordeal, and suffered incredible corruption.
On military, navy, magic. You have to see commerce in a bigger picture than just silver and gold to see what I am aiming at with this. The value of wealth is not in how much gold they have, but what resources they are wealthy in. A large military can influence the direction of commerce simply by being recognized, as well can a massive armada. As I described in another post, commerce is not the measurement of gold per capita, but more like interaction per capita, which resources speak volume, what do people want that we have. Or use what you got to make things happen.(Though too I have provided a means to capping gold per state)
North Korea maintains the 4th largest army in the world, yet has to beg for free food from Japan and China. A military should not count directly towards a gold cap or anything else relating to how much wealth is in circulation.
The British Empire used its military might to open up Africa and China for exploitation, but it is the resources they got from those places rather than the fact that they had a military which provided the economic advantage.
The British Empire used its military might to open up Africa and China for exploitation, but it is the resources they got from those places rather than the fact that they had a military which provided the economic advantage.
Well yes. This one is kind of what I imply by trade influence.
That's fair, but under the current system you have it's a lot like saying whoever has the most shovels gets a bonus, regardless of whether or not the shovels are being used to dig gems out of the ground.
Forges, smiths, shipyards ect. would be a better way of arranging it.
Wiltun for instance, uses it's military to take and hold Caraigh, which provides them with numerous resources.
Ostland by contrast, has a larger military, but can't/isn't using it to acquire new resources and markets.
Basically, it needs to be factors of production, what a state can actually produce, rather than just what they have.
I'll look into stockyards and such as alternative measures, but I think right now mechanically it is a matter of wordplay that is getting a hand on the means of which.
This is already far too over complicated, what is preferred would be a breakdown of who can produce what, and who's trading what with who. That would be far more useful than what you've been building so far.
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
Pony wrote:
exiled cordorian nobility. These were the affluent and influential merchant families, who have the buisness contacts, experience and know-how. While Cordor lost many highly capable buisnessmen and women that were central to Cordor's mercantile success, Kohlingen has gained them. And they have had time to rebuild a great deal of what they had lost.
This is different than how I understood the situation in Cordor. Usually in history the mercantile elite of city states have not been nobles as in nobles that landed nobility would accept as their peers, despite their privileged status. Therefore, I made Lily under the assumption that the mercantile elite of Cordor still remains as the upper class of the city. If what Pony said is true, she should live in Kohlingen instead, as she is from a wealthy patrician family of traders.
Which version of the story is closer to the truth?
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
Mercantile elite remain, but the nobles were putting a lot of money into it. The mercantile elite are having to produce new capital that isn't old money.
I'm not completely well-versed on the in-game specifics, but my take on it would be that the well-established merchant families could fill the vacuum left by the nobles without too much trouble. From what I understand nobles in history often invested in merchant businesses, but those nobles may have been the same ones who decided how heavily to tax them. The most well-established families should survive unscathed, but many smaller merchants may have trouble without that source of investment. In Elizabethan England some nobles were even given monopoly rights, which when handed out willy-nilly would've had quite the adverse effect on certain trades. Amongst the ruling classes in that example, keeping people on-side took precedence over cold, hard business sense, and I can't imagine too many merchants would've been upset to see the back of the nobles. Greater independence would probably be welcomed with open arms.
Think about it as the nobility being know-nothing investors who were giving their coin over to the "trade experts" (commonborn bourgeoisie merchants mostly in the Cordorian Merchant's Guild) to maybe make a profit. More often than not, it was the merchants fleecing and skimming some serious windfalls for themselves that they in turn reinvested into foreign and domestic trade, being otherwise good stewards of noble money.
But when the nobles left with their money, this put the merchants into a position where they had to use their own capital more than ever before, instead of having this big ol' purse they could dip into of money that wasn't even theirs to begin with.
We really need to flesh out the lore of this server and get it written down. Exhasperating when things keep changing, as I was told something very different two years ago. (edit: Or at least, differently interpredet by DMs)
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
It'd be helpful to see a solid and consistant lore I agree, especially on older established things.. even if it's contrary to what the oldest of players remember, as long as it's understood why the Lore is as presented, then shouldn't be too bad.
We really need to flesh out the lore of this server and get it written down. Exhasperating when things keep changing, as I was told something very different two years ago. (edit: Or at least, differently interpredet by DMs)
This. Though we're developing Tarkuul's economy from scratch right now so we'll see how it works out soon.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
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