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Dakotaen
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 10 2009, 9:28 AM 

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Rymonster wrote:
I approve.


That. Finally I have a place to look up some draconic stuff. Thanks a bunch for the hard work, Letum.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 04 2009, 13:48 PM 

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Found and corrected some more typos, eradicating a strange new color called "organge" in the process. (I can only suspect this is a shade of orange that kobold organs can turn.)


 
      
Steelscale Tribe
 
PostPosted: Fri, Nov 27 2009, 1:21 AM 



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Bump for new kobold players.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 06 2009, 16:05 PM 

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Another bump for new Kobold players.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 6:00 AM 

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Kurtulmak approves this bump.


 
      
Jyro X
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 6:20 AM 

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Awesome topic. Should be added to the Wiki imo.

:D

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 7:36 AM 

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It can't be in this exact form since so much of it is direct quote.


 
      
Gunz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 02 2010, 8:30 AM 



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Tis sexy indeed. More than I knew about Kobos. Nothing bout were-dire weasels though? :(

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Fri, Aug 20 2010, 1:35 AM 

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Added a pretty picture.

Fixed truncations and typos, and added cross-linking both within the thread and to some Amian resources. Have some more to do.


 
      
Spirit of Rock
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 23 2010, 12:15 PM 

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Terrific job, little scaly buggers are more ingenious and civilised than you might think at first glance!


 
      
LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 01 2010, 7:52 AM 

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Fixed a couple more issues.


 
      
wereguy2
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 01 2010, 8:42 AM 

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Exo/Endothermic, dude! Didn't you read Draconomicon!? >8C
But no, great thread thing. Also spotted a few errors:
"The most important difference between the two, however, is that kobolds are cold-blooded creatures, and dragons are warm-blooded." (Also, see above)
Your Dragonwrought link isn't working.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 01 2010, 9:06 AM 

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Updated the link, added the missing word. Thanks for the eyes, it's really hard for me to catch those. The whole kobold/blood/temperature thing still makes me nerdrage, but whatev.


 
      
Steelscale Tribe
 
PostPosted: Sat, Dec 18 2010, 10:37 AM 



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Bump!


 
      
Gunz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 28 2011, 9:29 AM 



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Here's some Kurtulmak info from Monster Mythology you might like:

Quote:
Kurtulmak is the chief deity of the kobold pantheon. He is a hateful deity, one who despises all life, save kobolds. He has an especial antipathy for brownies, pixies, sprites and their kin -- and most of all, gnomes. Kurtulmak is prepared to enter into any alliance in order to defeat Garl Glittergold or any other gnomish god, even ignoring alignment considerations (and all others!) for this end.

Kurtulmak is not a stupid deity. He has skills; he taught the first kobolds the skills of mining and tunnelling, and also the skills of ambushing, although Gaknulak is now the more important influene in this sphere. Rather, Kurtulmak is a creature dominated by his emotions and hates.

Thus, Kurtulmak is intelligent, but he is not wise. He is fairly easily trapped or tricked and out-manuevered if his weakness are played upon. He is arrogant in his hatred of his enemies, and loves to gloat over his successes at length. It is this weakness which Garl exploited when he demolished Kurtulmak's cavern; rather than putting the gnome straight to death, Kurtulmak wanted to gloat and watch Garl grovel, and this was his undoing.

Kurtulmak has the psychology of the small creature written large all over him. He carries grudges, and has a huge chip on his small shoulder. He hates being bettered by any means, especially by deception or by some "frivolous" means such as illusion or practical joking. Kurtulmak has absolutely no sense of humor. He makes characterisic errors as a result of this weakness. He often tries to gain revenge over his enemies in the same ways that they gained an advantage over him. Thus, dragging Gaknulak along for support (despite the demigod's misgivings) he attempted to booby-trap a citadel of the gnomish gods, only to fail miserably as the first group of guards easily detected him (Kurtulmak is hardly subtle). The gnomish gods captured him, tied his tail in a knot which took a score of years to unravel, stuck a false red wax nose on his face and hung a luminous stuffed chicken to his waist, and packed him off home. No wonder Kurtulmak hates gnomes above everything.

Nonetheless, Kurtulmak should not be underestimated. He is a savage deity who is always attentive to events on the Prime Material plane, and who is always active in trying to secure some advantage for his people on that plane. He is reluctant to oppose goblinoid gods, especially Maglubiyet whom he fears (while he considers Gruumsh and the orcish gods stupid and oafish), and thus while his people often contest with goblinoid raes for living space, Kurtulmak will rarely overactively intervene in such conflicts.

Kurtulmak will not send an avatar to oppose actions by goblinoid gods, unless they have acted first and he feels himself forced to respond. He will always send an avatar to deal with strife between kobolds and gnomes when this becomes more than mere skirmishing, and is eagar to send an avatar to despoil Sylvan lands if he thinks he can get away with this. Kurtulmak does not bother with omens; he instructs his priests directly through commands which are given in dreams, dozing, daydreaming and other states of mind when the threshold of consciousness is lowered. Priests who do not act immediately on the basis of these commands are simply snuffed out of existence by the god.

Kurtulmal's priests are the commanders of war bands and many are also expert miners; priests are expected to specialize in one or other role. Whichever role is adopted, priests strive to unite kobolds and undertake the tasks of war, and mining and underground exploration, with a large force of kobolds; there is strength in numbers. Kobolds hate most other life, and this attitude is encouraged by the aggressive priests. The priests wear orange robes with a white death's head sigil on the chest.


If you want the info on the other kobold god, Gaknulak, let me know.

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 28 2011, 11:30 AM 

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LetumLux wrote:
Updated the link, added the missing word. Thanks for the eyes, it's really hard for me to catch those. The whole kobold/blood/temperature thing still makes me nerdrage, but whatev.


How could such a large cold blooded predator survive with so much time underground? Really? Snakes and lizards have to sun-bath on a daily basis in order to survive.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 2:16 AM 

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o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:
Here's some Kurtulmak info from Monster Mythology you might like: {snip!}
If you want the info on the other kobold god, Gaknulak, let me know.
Can you get me the page number for the Kurtulmak info? Also, I'd love the Gaknulak stuff. I'll add those to their respective sections soon as I have page numbers to cite. :D


 
      
Gunz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 6:45 AM 



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It's on page 54 of Monster Mythology.

As for the Gaknulak stuff, you might want to ask a DM if it's considered relevant on Amia. I remember seeing someone be shot down recently when they asked about worshiping Gaknulak. Perhaps ask for a DM ruling on the god even.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 7:26 AM 

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There's already a very prominent disclaimer in the first post to cover that. It's really up to them to say something or not, if they want to; I'm just providing the lore!


 
      
dayfer
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 9:07 AM 

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Yeah I had a character concept for a Gaknulak follower, turns out he's Greyhawk setting exclusive :(

But anyhow this is brilliant, incredibly useful since I lost my copy of races of the dragon.


 
      
LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 19:15 PM 

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Forgotten Realms is saturated in interloper deities (Kurtulmak himself is across many of the campaign settings and clearly not unique to Faerûn) and it's obviously a DM discretion thing, but I don't see that having Gaknulak and Dakarnok as "saints" or folk heroes damages or undermines anything; A cleric of Gaknulak is really just a cleric of Kurtulmak's trickery/traps aspect but venerate that aspect in the "saint" - the power still goes to and comes from Kurtulmak.

Monster Mythology bit added.


 
      
Gunz
 
PostPosted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 3:33 AM 



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Well, the thing is that Monsters Mythology actually states that the info provided is valid in FR, unless otherwise noted. But, of course, the DM's here decide what's legit and what's not. Amia is FR based, but not FR strict, after all.

I'll type up the info for you soon. I'm a little busy (currently procrastinating!) so I can't type it out for you just yet.

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Gunz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 26 2011, 3:55 AM 



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Gaknulak (Demigod)
Lawful Evil
Portfolios: Protection, Stealth, Trickery, Traps
Symbol: Cauldron with whirling ellipses.

Gaknulak is the kobold demigod of trickery, ambushing, and setting traps. He is a highly intelligent and sneaky deity with a magical cauldron from which he pulls tools, unpredictable minor magical items, and diverse resources for ingenious -- and to fool others. He is the deity who protects and defends kobolds, and teaches them practical trickery. He is a supreme pragmatist, and in this way is a very lawful trickster.

Roleplaying Notes: Gaknulak is always ready to send his avatar to instruct kobolds in new arts of defense through creative innovation. He avoids direct confrontation with other avatars and races, preferring defense and trickery. His omens are subtle, and/or hard to decipher, challenging his priests to understand or perceive them: subtly triggered trap defenses, misplaced tools and everyday items, and weapons/clothing subtly rearranged.

Priest alignments: LE, NE

Duties of the Priesthood: Gaknulak's priests are spies and scouts. They also are experts in setting traps and ambushes of all kinds, and in the construction of defenses. They are defenders of lairs and homelands above all.

Page 55, Monsters Mythology

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 26 2011, 4:02 AM 

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Yay, it matches! Page number added.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 26 2011, 14:36 PM 

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The stuff about Dragonborn, is that 4.E? Or is it another term for half-dragons? Or perhaps Dragon diciples? The line about gnomes confuse me; I quote "but it is difficult for a kobold to wholly forget a dragonborn’s origins, especially when that dragonborn was formerly a gnome." End quote
Reason im asking is that there's another section about half-dragons later down, too.

Quote:
Dragonborn: The kobolds’ view of the dragonborn is that of suspicion tempered by grudging respect. It is difficult for kobolds to overlook the fact that dragonborn were not born with the dragon within them. The touch of Bahamut elevates the dragonborn above their unfortunate non-dragon origins, but it is difficult for a kobold to wholly forget a dragonborn’s origins, especially when that dragonborn was formerly a gnome. Still, kobolds have been known to cooperate with dragonborn on occasion, when their goals coincide.

Dragon-Descended: Kobolds view the dragon-descended races with almost the same reverence that they reserve for dragons, particularly when they encounter a half-dragon. While no kobold tribe would consent to devote itself to any but the most exceptional and charismatic half-dragon, it would still be willing to go out of its way to help out any half-dragon or draconic character, regardless of what that character’s dragon heritage is.

Half-Dragons: Half-dragons are fascinating and enviable creatures, but kobolds assess each individual half-dragon on its own merit, taking specific interest in its draconic heritage. A half-gnome half-dragon is an abomination to be destroyed, lest it continue to pollute the draconic bloodline, while other half-dragons receive some degree of reverence. Dragon disciples, who come into their dragon powers through sorcery, are also a curiosity to kobolds.


Seems like it's just a repetition of the same :)
Sorry for being nit-picky!

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dayfer
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 26 2011, 17:03 PM 

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Dragon born are in races of the dragon 3.5 so...


 
      
LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 26 2011, 18:17 PM 

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Very_Svensk wrote:
(...) Seems like it's just a repetition of the same :)
Sorry for being nit-picky!

No need to apologize! I didn't write the book, and I certain have issues with some parts of it. Haha.

All of the information is taken from Races of the Dragon, but only the kobold and dragon deities / language sections. It talks about the Dragonborn, Spellscales, and all the other less interesting draconic options in other sections of Races of the Dragon, so your answers would be there. I'm more a kobold person, so I don't have the familiarity with the others to give you a direct answer off the top of my head.

And yes, everything in this thread is pre-4th Ed, so no need to worry about that.

Also, if you haven't already, take a peek at these: Races of the Dragon excerpt
Races of the Dragon, Web Enhancement (Kobolds; Playing to their Strengths)
Races of the Dragon, Web Enhancement (Kobolds; Of Traps and Perfection)


 
      
DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 27 2011, 20:18 PM 

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Someone poke me so that we fix some of the things on the Wiki.

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Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 02 2011, 12:59 PM 

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Do you know if there's any lore appropriate way to decide name for a kobold? Do they take names afte their appearance, their ancestry, their favoured craft? Is it always in draconic?

Also - Can somebody tell me how to edit the AmiaWiki? I just stumbled upon this Gem

Quote:
Kobolds are cold-blooded creatures, and as such need to be in warm environs to survive very long, which is why they live underground.

Like wtf? Yes, They're coldblooded but that sentence doesn't make sense! A cave is cold, damp and ... Wet!

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 02 2011, 18:25 PM 

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Try not to think about the cold-blooded thing too hard. Whoever wrote their lore wasn't a herpetologist.

There doesn't appear to be any canon naming convention.

On Amia, some people string together some word meanings to make a name (Othokentir is made from words that mean Smart One, for instance) or just make some phonetic sound into a neat, Draconic sounding name that, to my knowledge, has no canon meaning. The Tenek-born named their members with the Draconic word convention; the Steelscales used Turkish words and twisted them around (The "name" Kurtulmak is actually a Turkish word, in case you're wondering why Turkish was chosen for that) and that style was a small part of what distinguished the Tribes from each other, making their members more recognizable inter- and outer- tribe just by the sound style of their names. (The Steelscale Kuçukavga, meaning "Small Battle" has a different "sound" than the Tenek Ixen'sauriv, "Fire Eyes".)

Naturally, if you were to ask me, I'd say go with Draconic words as a name, because then the savvy types can look up what your name means, or you can use the English/Common meaning to introduce yourself in Common so that the Draconic language doesn't become further defiled on the tongues of those filthy mammals! That, or conform to whatever the tribe standard is, because Kobolds are Lawful by nature!

To edit the Wiki, you have to create an account / sign in with your account and go to the page. There should be a tab near the title/header of the page that says Edit.


 
      
LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 15:30 PM 

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Added go-to links to sections!

Dragon deities that do not exist in Forgotten Realms have been removed.

As it turns out, I have a bit of demystifying to do on Faerûnian dragon deities...

Dragon deities that exist in Faerûn, listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 221:
  • Bahamut
  • Tiamat
  • Io
  • Hlal
  • Null
  • Task (What book is he in?)

On page 220 it also states:
    Other sourcebooks such as Defenders of the Faith list deities for some of the creatures in the Monster Manual. The Monster Deities table (from which the above list is sourced) presents information on most of these deities. Not all deities from other sources exist in the Forgotten Realms setting. For example, Panzuriel, a deity worshiped by krakens, sahuagin, and other evil aquatic creatures, has no influence on Toril, and Umberlee grants spells in his name (and most of these creatures actually worship her directly rather than through this alias). Any deity not listed on the Monster Deities table or in Chapter 5 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting does not exist on Toril.

Defenders of the Faith page 95 describes, in brief, the following:

    The Dragon Deities
      The dragon deities are all children of Io, the Ninefold Dragon who encompasses all the opposites and extremes of dragonkind. None of the dragon deities have preferred weapons; spiritual weapon spells cast by their clerics manifest as biting dragon heads. (NB: This latter part does not apply to Forgotten Realms unless no other favored weapon is listed, I assume, as Bahamut and Tiamat clearly have favored weapons in Forgotten Realms)

      Aasterinian
      The chaotic neutral Aasterinian is a cheeky deity who enjoys learning through play, invention, and pleasure. She is Io’s messenger, a huge brass dragon who enjoys disturbing the status quo. The domains she is associated with are Chaos and Trickery.

      Bahamut
      The platinum dragon, Bahamut, is lawful good. He is the Lord of the North Wind, ruler of good dragons, and a god of wisdom, knowledge, prophecies, and song. The domains he is associated with are Air and Good.

      Chronepsis
      Chronepsis is neutral—silent, unconcerned, and dispassionate. He is the draconic god of fate, death, and judgment. The domains he is associated with are Death and Knowledge.

      Falazure
      The terrifying Night Dragon is neutral evil. He is lord of energy draining, undeath, decay, and exhaustion. The domains he is associated with are Death and Evil.

      Io
      The Ninefold Dragon is neutral, for he encompasses all alignments within his aspects. He is also called the Concordant Dragon, the Great Eternal Wheel, Swallower of Shades, and Lord of the Gods, as well as the Creator of Dragonkind. The domains he is associated with are Knowledge, Magic, Protection, and Travel.

      Tiamat
      The chromatic dragon, Tiamat, is lawful evil. She proclaims herself Creator of Evil Dragonkind, and her five heads each bear the color of one kind of evil dragon. She enjoys such wretched pastimes as torture, bickering, and destruction. The domains she is associated with are Evil and Law.


So...

I'll be flushing out the FR-specific entries on these deities to replace the core Races of the Dragon ones currently present in this compiled lore thread; where they are brief or incomplete, I will supplement non-contradictory information from core sources. I'll also be cleaning up the main entry for Kurtulmak to assure it conforms more with FR lore than core, and slipping in FR-specific details about Kobolds (which should include dire weasels, IIRC!)

/update


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 16:32 PM 

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I'm still edgy about the whole cold-blooded aspect of Kobolds...They're related to dragons, damnit. And dragons are, by god, not cold blooded. (Unsure about White dragons and silver dragons tho)

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 16:38 PM 

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I think that true Dragons are more magic-blooded ("lol ain't gotta explain flight") than warm- or cold-blooded, anyway.


 
      
Mobile_Svensk
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 16:55 PM 

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LetumLux wrote:
I think that true Dragons are more magic-blooded ("lol ain't gotta explain flight") than warm- or cold-blooded, anyway.


Eh...?

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 17:07 PM 

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Half-joking. Dragons are beings of immense inherent magic, and it's often referenced when discussing how dragons can even manage to fly. (Bees fly by magic, too!)

Anyway, I agree with you that Kobolds being cold-blooded is silly. In a way, it doesn't functionally matter if they are or not because of the prevalence of magic in their lineage and in the setting; it's very easy to find someone to give you an Endure Elements, or use Kobold ingenuity to make equipment for staying warm.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 20:54 PM 

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The proper term is "endothermic" in regard to dragons. That just means their internal temperature remains the same (cold or hot depending on the dragon) no matter what the temperature of their surroundings are. It doesn't mean they have warm blood, even though the term is used for "warm-blooded" creatures, too. The only reason dragons are like this, though, is their elemental nature. Given kobolds do not have a draconis fundamentum, it's only natural they're cold-blooded. Dragons would be, too, if they didn't have it.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 17 2012, 23:38 PM 

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I don't know if "it's only natural" is a safe argument, since we're talking somewhere between biology in reality, and biology in a fantasy game. For instance, it's been posed that a good number of dinosaurs we thought were cold-blooded (or ectothermic, if you prefer) likely weren't. I doubt they had a draconis fundamentum either. :lol:

Kobolds aren't direct descendants of true Dragons; there wasn't an evolution there, so there's no reason to assume that they would have the same-just-smaller physiology. They are a different species that was either created by or from Dragons/Dragon deity, with details varying based on which creation story you go with. Either way, they're not Dragons in either OOC Subtype or IC lineage.

Any argument really hinges on what the author/editors of Races of the Dragon meant by cold-blooded, I suppose, since it's a categorical term. Did they mean that Kobolds were ectothermic? Bradymetabolic? Poikilothermic? That they didn't specify implies to me that they meant Kobolds are more ectothermic, for which 50° - 40° F does not seem adequately warm, especially for a race that is naturally subterranean and thus don't have the benefit of solar power. Perhaps they just seek out caverns with lots of geothermal activity?

Maybe I should go read up on cavern dwelling reptiles and see if that's more reasonable than it sounds, but my experiences with snakes suggest to me that kobolds would feel cold in anything less than 60° F. That they eat more and not less as the temperature drops is also weird to me. Perhaps they have a sort of koboldis fundamentum installed by their draconic overlords that ties their diet into their thermal homeostasis, and when they get cold it kicks into overdrive like a little metabolic furnace - but then that wouldn't describe an ectotherm or more general cold-blooded creature anymore.

Maybe they had a reason for saying that Kobolds are cold-blooded and were actually well-researched about the choice, and we just don't get to see the reason and justification leading up to in the book. My guess, though, is simply that not a great of thought was put into it beyond "reptile = cold-blooded, thus reptilian humanoid = cold-blooded".


 
      
LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 18 2012, 0:22 AM 

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Added a super fancy picture and moved some superfluous stuff to make the first post neater and cleaner.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 18 2012, 0:24 AM 

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I would go with that, honestly. I personally think that kobolds were only compared to dragons because it's easier to think of them as related creatures. I mean... Dragons are immensely similar to cats, too, but that doesn't mean we should think they had a common ancestor. I always considered the "relation" between dragons and kobolds to be completely in their heads and dragons never corrected them because they get wholly subservient creatures out of it. I mean, if no one - not a single sourcebook - can state how they're related outside of myth and legend, then who's to say that's actually the case? It's something they believe wholeheartedly, sure, but aside from the occasional unexplained Dragonwrought kobold (which reminds me of tieflings, by the way) there is no real proof of the claim.

I think kobolds are the result of Io having a laugh at dragons by giving them a vast fanbase (le tongue in cheek). But that's simplifying it a bit too much. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while kobolds may be very distantly related to dragons, we shouldn't question how they're different from them. They just are. Just like a dragon is just what it is or even a goblin is what it is. Kobolds are like dragons, yes, but so is a wyvern.

Another thing to note:
Kobolds are specifically identified as being reptilian.
Dragons are specifically identified as not being reptilian.

In any case, I guess I'm just rambling now. I think Kobolds just weird me out. Sorry, guys!

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 12 2014, 6:45 AM 

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Fixed a broken image link, updated the others.


 
      
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