What is the difference between a Bard's version of arcane spellcasting and that of a Sorcerer? Do they gain their powers similarly from their bloodline, and it is simple a choice of focus and profession? Bard-specific spells aside, I'm curious moreso about the generic arcane spell list the two share, operating from the same stats.

Never really spelled out. But I'm personally more interested in what you think.

It was my assumption that, to unlock the secrets of Arcane magic without extensive study or some sort of pact ala blackguards or warlocks, one must explore the connection to their racial heritage dating back to dragons, the fey, and other naturally magical creatures. Bard works as "arcane spellcaster" for the use of several PrCs like Arcane Archer and PM, but it and Sorcerer are the sole class prereqs for things like Dragon Disciple, leading me to believe that Bards get their innate abilities from the same source. Then, it is just the matter of focusing in one area or another have having the aptitude/talent/drive/whathaveyou to progress within the art.

I in no way think that Bards and Sorcerers are the same, namely, I am just curious where the innate magical ability comes from. Being that, a Bard would have an easier time becoming a Sorcerer than a Wizard, but unless fate decrees a Wizard would have an exceptionally difficult time becoming a Sorcerer or Bard.

I'll offer my take: Sorcerer and Bard cast magic through pure emotion. When the sorcerer is cold and deeply wants to feel warm, the emotion of the cold feeling translates into warming magic like tipping the balance on a scale. When she wants light, and sees the candle, the want and the emotion of that want translate into creating the fire that lights the wick.

On the other hand, when she becomes enraged, at a foe or for an unrelated reason, that rage gains form through attack magic. This is especially the case with influencing others. Her desire to have things become one way or the other draw in those around her in the form of influencing magics.

It's the emotion that's the key. Strong desire to protect her fellow comrades? This emotion bends the weave to protect them with wards. Strong desire to harm a foe? This emotion bends the weave to inflict pain in the form of attack magic.

Just one take.

I enjoy thinking along a related line: a sorcerer can draw power from her emotions, but a bard draws power from the emotions of others. Thus the importance of the Perform skill, and the artistic nature of a bard spell's "verbal" components: in order to magically impose fear or ice or whatever emotion or condition, the targets must first be genuinely feeling some degree of that emotion or condition, which the bard intensifies and channels back in magnified, purified fashion. To make someone flee in fear via War Cry, a bard needs to begin by unsettling the target with eerie or intimidating or frightening song. To cast Ice Storm, a bard has to begin with music that suggests ice and snow and wind.

There's obvious problems with that as a game mechanic, but as fluff, I think it's pretty fun.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

All of these interpretations are actually quite varied and interesting; it is always such when it involves classes that don't have a lot of "specific" lore to them. I usually find these classes harder to operate in the beginning out of fear that I don't understand something important, but they always seem to have something personal you can bring to the table.

Hence why I responded the way I did. J am always intrigued by other alternatives because there may be some nugget in them.

Yossarin is a really freaky dude in game, and i'm still impressed at how charming the character can be while wigging people out with questions as to what he is on every level. I love a good traditional flighty bard character, and I can probably name a few on the server, but it's always cool when someone goes and does something interesting that doesn't look like cheese.

(we partied with the Fire Giants last week!)

Thanks everybody for your input. Liz gave me interesting food for thought especially as it relates to Sorcerers.

Bards don't necessarily have any innate magical ability. Their only similarity to sorcerers is that they cast spontaneously - something that says nothing about the origin of magic and doesn't differ from Favored Souls or Spirit Shamans. The Player's Handbook makes some poetic reference to heart and soul, but it conflicts with other sources and isn't very exact. In 3e, undeniably, bards were re-envisioned as innate spellcasters, but it's an innovation that we need not take too seriously. Remember learning spells from scrolls in Baldur's Gate? My bards do it still. The most retarded assumption implicit in the new system is that bards should have some kind of a supernatural ancestor. I think it's very unfitting for the average bard to assume and explore some monstrous heritage. It's possible, but it should not be the norm.

Faerûn has a history of bardic colleges. I like to think of the bard's trade as a tradition they study long to master and pass on. The bard isn't just some musical prodigy who starts making magic spontaneously with his own songs. He studies the folklore and different musical traditions of the land so as to preserve them for future generations. He is expected to entertain the audience with whatever performance they want to hear, whether it be a high-brow concerto or a bawdy drinking song. This training includes the study of magic.

The bard spell list is partially the same and partially different from other arcane casters. This is probably because their paradigm lends itself more easily to certain types of spells. I imagine bards to learn their spells as little tunes, as abstract ideas, as clusters of emotion, or as traditional wizard-like spells, first. They can do this from oral tradition, scrolls, or their own ingenuity. But once learned, they can remember a set number of spells and keep them in their mind, unlike a wizard. These spells can be unlearned and relearned, and nothing prevents an academically trained bard from studying new spells in a library, but it takes time. So I like to think that bards have the potential of mediocre wizards to study and learn new spells, but they have to settle on a smaller number they can keep in active reserve.

This may not be the best, most exact interpretation of the latest canon rules, but I feel it works a lot better for me in terms of the theme and flavor of the class.

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As you reckon it, Iron, a Bard knows arcane magic only because he is willing to do so to further his craft? Does this mean that in lore-respects a Bard can study as a wizard or use their magical racial inheritance like a Sorcerer, depending on the character? Can Bards keep spellbooks?

I think that your take on the class really lends to the "jack of all trades" that is often painted on the class skillset.

My bard actually does keep a "spellbook" called an octavo, which is a collected series of musical manuscripts written in his own hand (autographs).

In my little world, yes, a bard can keep a spellbook. Some may be closer to sorcerers (because demonstrably, some of them have magical draconic heritage which makes the eligible for the RDD class, but that can't possibly mean all of them do) while others work more like wizards. I would say arcane magic is a fairly central part of their training because it also ties in with their supernatural Bard Song. And, adopting the paradigmatic view of magic (as suggested in Yossarin's lexicon in the Library), I think the bardic paradigm would see an intimate connection between the structures in music and the structures of spells, both being equally capable of imposing new patterns and rules on reality. At the culmination of such a magical discipline, musical performance and spell become indistinguishable. A beginning bard may study the details of a wizard's spell and learn to repeat it, but a master of song will see the underlying logic, or rather dramatic arc, of the spell and reproduce it in musical terms. That is just one twist on it, though, and related to the IC theory my priest is formulating in his own studies.

Strictly in terms of 3e rules, though, the scholarly aspect of bardic magic is played down. You could say I'm simply wrong and outdated, but the 2e class was different and obviously lore and history doesn't completely change as editions do. I think there's space for both takes (and more) within the bare bones of NWN mechanisms.

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The lore about bards are pretty vague, which I let bleed into my RP of Andrew quite a bit. I don't really like when someone attempts to nail down what exactly a bard is or where its magic comes from because, quite honestly, I love the idea that it's a mystery both IC and OOC. From my own observations, I've seen people point to Sorcerous-type origins. Other bards learn their spells I've seen learn via scientific observation. Some are more like wizards. Let's not forget, Bard's also have some spells that, otherwise, are exclusively Divine spells.

Andrew, for example, is extremely devout and in service to Lathander (including having a level in Divine Champion). Though his father was a sorcerer, Andrew's spells and Spell songs also dip into the divine territory (Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison, Healing Circle, Cure Minor Wounds, Bless Weapon). I'd like to eventually request Andrew have additional divine spells in his spell repertoire. Though I keep it intentionally vague, I do like to imply that his spells are a reflection of his piety - in essence, making him sort of a Divine Bard (which I took inspiration from the alternate path suggestion in the SRD). The rest of his spells are focused on making him a more competent or aggressive attacker, investigation (Legend Lore) or helping others (e.g. Clarity), reflecting his impulsive/passionate nature, his inquisitiveness and his altruism.

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Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess

Once you become a Bard or Sorcerer, are you stuck with your power for life, or does your connection to it wane as you stop using it or focus more on other things?

I imagine a wizard who doesn't study or think about his path, maybe as he becomes a family man, would start to lose working knowledge. Likewise, a Fighter or Rogue would become less strong, dextrous, or able in times of prolonged departure from their skillsets.

The actual question is: Can you lose levels over time?
To which I would say: Yes, regardless, your connection never -ceases- to exist... Not by natural methods, at least...-
From my humble perspective, that is.

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Womans in your town

I think the issue is primarily with level limits; you can't simply pick up a level of fighter if you're a... say, Wizard / Rogue at the cap, so you'd have to ditch that rogue level from your youth or some of your wizardly knowledge to pick up the proficiencies and discipline, or however your characterize the class. But how does it work in lore? Does losing that level of rogue or wizard make you 'forget' the knowledge and skills that come with, or do you simply become bad at it through focus of other things?

Especially in regards to Sorcerers/Bards, whose capacity for doing magic is inborn but ability is determined by experience

Sadly, 3rd ed writing is terrible and often non-existent to the point much of it makes little sense and you just have to make it up yourself.

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Mercedes; I think that the justification for that is personal, rather than openly in lore. We know the mechanics and how they work, and we have to deal with them. Even if you somehow, over the years, lose your ability to cast level nine spells as per sorcery, you know you are -able- to enhance your connection to your magic again - and so a wizard can study all the arcane stuff again - and so a rogue can practice agility of fingers, and so on. Exceptions could be dragon disciples and palemaster and such, but you get the idea.

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Womans in your town

That's interesting.. Could a palemaster lose its abilities if someone lopped off their arm/other grafts? Could that constitute a loss in some PM levels?

After several hours, if not plain millenia of ponders, I've returned to the forums with a proper answer for thine queries:



Jokes aside, I really can't imagine how it would happen. It may be for the reason that I don't get palemasters, or perhaps my imagination is failing after frying my brain with three essays in a row, but in any case, I am at loss of words here.

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Womans in your town

It is not explicitly denied. Nor are there any rules to handle deleveling in D&D, as far as I know. So it boils down to whatever you can explain away and get DM approval for. There are some ways I can think of (surgery, continuous positive energy treatments, probably combined with divine help), but it's probably a hazardous and experimental endeavor that may never entirely succeed.

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Sounds like a good fit for a PM.

I am of the understanding that it is not plausible.
For the same reason you do not lose a figher level from chopping off your limbs.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Which brings me back to the original question: lore/fluff-wise, how WOULD you lose a level of fighter? Without simply saying you "replaced" it. I understand this question will have answers tailored to the individual, but I am curious nonetheless.

The most basic level of of character revision is retraining - that is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option.

Retraining is not rebuilding. Rebuilding constitutes such a major change in your character's identity, accomplishing it isn't simply a matter of erasing an entry on your character sheet and replacing it with new information. In essence, you are altering reality in order to rewrite your character's personal history. Therefore, to accomplish a rebuild, your PC most complete a significant and challenging quest (PH II page 196)

Rebuilds are at the DMs discretion, there are no rights to it by rules. in PnP it comes with quests and tasks to fit the RP of your character and the same applies here

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

I'm less talking about the rebuilding RP and more about that constitutes the lore behind such things.

If someone wanted to drop Fighter, that sounds simple enough given time; if someone wanted to drop... PM or Wizard, those things sound a bit more complicated. It's a difficult question, pending on what class and character in is question, but since this IS the Lore forum I thought it up to the task. Often the best answers to these kinds of questions aren't dredged from the bottom of a sourcebook, but instead from a specific player's informed point of view. "How does bard magic work?" etc.


In response to your explanation, however: why would rebuilding be considered "altering reality" or history? What is stopping a character from losing ranks in one thing and later gaining them in another in a similar way as to how they gained ranks previously? Is it "once a fighter, always a fighter" in realmspace? One can say a class level represents a sum of collected experiences throughout a PC's life, and thus you cannot erase experience, but that stops making sense when a character arbitrarily stops getting tangible experiences at level 20 or 30.

I agree with your statement and I have pondered on the same on reality changing.

I would say it comes down to this being a game. Sure you can compare some things to reality for ease of use but whenever I DM I take the rules as is mostly and disregard when my players cry about reality and physics in a fantasy game

Your character is "destined" to be what they become. The PM part I think it was Yoss who once summed it up nicely with how your PC is destiny ties in to what they are.
For a simple example: Regenaration can regrow a limb, but it does not close up the belly button or holes in your ears from piercings. Why? because your "being" is attuned to what it is.

So chopping off your arm as PM will not cure you from it or make you lose all the talent and spells you've gained from it.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

There's no real lore behind it. Rebuilds here are just a decision to practice something different. Some class traits will be lost because you forgot them, others will have to be actively undone. But given that epic levels is something you can achieve with two weeks of training, there's no way to make IC sense of not being able to practice something else in a similar timeframe, forgetting your old skills in the process.

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Although there is no lore about it, this issue did come up in a tabletop game I was playing once, about experience attrition or the natural loss of levels over time. Somebody cited a series of Dragonlance novels about the brothers, Wrestlin & Caramel, and about how Caramel got fat, stupid, and drunk and then went back in time and got less fat, stupid, and drunk.

Iron as I said it boils down to being a game and not real life

And the players handbook as quests and extravagant deeds to handle "massive" rebuilds

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Yeah, but while that is interesting (or can be, if the stuff is good; I haven't read it), it's not really relevant for Amia; we do have rebuilds here without changing history and reality through epic quests. That's the empirical reality of our setting, so we need not concoct elaborate and far-fetched lore to justify it. We can just explain it through experience attrition, as Yoss put it, or re-education. And when we make up explanations, realism (and by that, I mean believability) is obviously the first standard of evaluation that suggests itself.

"No critical lore to determine the answer? Ok, then what makes sense?" is the approach I would take to any player ideas and requests.

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The discussion went in such a way to answer my question, insomuch as it has an answer, and then more on the broader scale. Good stuff, I like a bit of thought and anecdote.

Of course this raises MORE questions, but let's see if I can't make them cohesive with each-other and subject for another thread. Like... Level-draining

It is still a valid point to adress with rebuilds since some classes simply do not get rebuilds from just training (or lack of it!). I have found that reading the core books has helped me a lot in dealing with IC stuff and it is wrong to simply pawn the massive amount of books off because they are not "relevant" to Amia. I believe they are.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think characters couldn't rebuild out of any class sans, say... RDD. PM sounds like a big stretch, but with divine help I can imagine it possible, though I don't think you'd ever fully return to normal and would be a pretty scarred individual physically and emotionally.

As per the topic, though, how do you view the "link" a PC has to their magical heritage and their spellcasting ability? One could argue that all Feytouched or Dragonkin have the ability to become sorcerers, but many simply do not. It wouldn't be that hard for them to pick it up later in their careers, but what about dropping the practice? Can sorcery fall into disuse and force you to relearn it ala muscle memory?

Sure. I mean, I can't offer a very thorough answer to a question formulated as "could it be possible" - the only correct answer is "sure", because almost anything is possible.

It depends on the sorcerer in question. Some perhaps might be unable to ever even stop casting their spells, if their power was an uncontrollable urge inside them. Others would have to practice constantly to maintain their abilities. If there was a specific thing empowering them, you might be able to sever the link and make them mundane for good. These are just wild suggestions, but maybe you're a tiefling or another planetouched with a third magical eye that lets you perceive the secrets of the Weave and cast magic; piercing it or cutting it out might make you lose your sorcerous potential. Or maybe your power is due to a connection to some specific magical or planar creature, or a particular magical phenomenon (planar rift, ley node, sylvan rock, whatever), and when that thing is destroyed or cut off from this world, your powers go with it. For someone who just gets them from dragon blood flowing through their entire body, it's a little harder to do - but in an age of advanced medical magic, a blood transfusion wouldn't be out of the question. I don't see why one would go through the trouble, but theoretically, I am sure you could demagic a sorcerer. As for specific spells, Miracle and Wish could do it. I would even argue, for the purposes of cool DM and player stories, that a Mordenkainen's Disjunction might sometimes dispel a sorcerer's power by freak accident. It is supposed to have a chance to premanently disenchant magical items, so I don't see why certain types of sorcerous nature couldn't be subject to it too.

As for PM, it's one thing to ask whether you can completely undo the damage, and another to ask if you can do so well enough to lose the levels. If you remove your grafts and begin treatments to restore your calcified/mummified/rotten flesh, you'll certainly lose the Pale Master powers associated with them, hence, the levels. With the amount of epic clerics around, getting a Miracle from an anti-undead god shouldn't be too hard, either. If what PM gives you is grasp attacks with your bone hand, and AC from your special skin, and you remove both, isn't that effectively deleveling? Dropping arcane magic is even easier; just burn your spellbook and soon you'll probably forget the specifics. That's not to say it wouldn't leave some marks, and more often than not you might die in the attempt. But I find it a stretch to say it's somehow so super special a class that you can't undo any of it.

The same probably goes for RDD. It will be difficult and uncharted territory, but if there are rituals to empower the dragon within you, there must be rituals to suppress it and/or awaken the original (demi)human blood to fight back. Certainly not the stuff of regular daily rebuilds, but not an impossible story to tell.

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Reading Iron's I think he makes some good points.

I think all relevels are pretty much possible though is someone with a build like F10/AA19/Tumbleclass1 wanted to become Pal30 then I think you have a long period of rp ahead of you and multiple requests for partial changes along the way.
The bigger the drop the harder the impact and losing a dominant class and replacing it entirely should be an epic undertaking.

As an example my wizard Harold.
Harold is physically weak. He could decide he wants to be a warrior. But burning his spellbook and picking up a sword wouldn't make him a warrior. It'd just make him a gimped wizard.
He'd have to start training, perhaps trying to convince someone to cast physical enhancing spells on him with permanency or have a diet of bulls flesh and blood (+Str/Con). In the process he would neglect his studies and focus more and more on body over mind (-Int).
He'd also have to change his instincts and reactions as right now his first reaction is to run away towards the warriors when attacked. That doesnt cut it when he is supposed to be the warrior. An overhaul mentally would be needed as well.
He'd have to get used to armor and perhaps wearing metal armor all day long would atrophy his wizardly abilities even more as weeks become months.

The same goes for RDD and PM's who want to drop the class entirely. Chopping off limbs and casting a wish/ miracle/ any magic then shouldn't cut it. Magic shouldn't insta-solve such problems.
Should it be impossible? No, (almost) nothing should be.
Should it be easy? No, it should take months of research, testing, trying and forging a path ahead. But the destination shouldn't be the focus, it should be the path towards it.

If you pull it off against the odds I bet you'll have a great sense of accomplishment to boot!

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

Don't know if this answers your question completely - but this is how we view it in our PnP campaign. Our view is it's a magical art that is learned and the medium used is poetry, song or music:

<Insert "not sure if serious" Joker meme here.>

Caramon and Raistlin! Who are badass, and awesome.

Gamewise, Caramon was still a fighter, but his alcoholism and depression led to weight gain and getting out of shape. Statwise, this translated into some hefty penalties to physical attributes. He was still a fighter with all his levels, but dimished in capability. Luckily for him, he simply busted his arse with exercise before setting out with his brother and lost the penalties. (See the "Legend Trilogy," an excellent read.)

Characters losing bodyparts, means abilities needing use of those parts cannot function, not lost levels. Nobody simply wills level loss or forgets "how to fighter" in canon. A better logic is simple amnesia and permanent brain damage for most classes. A warrior takes too many dints to the head now has trouble remembering technique. A mage has a traumatic death experience and chronic nightmares leave him unable to ever memorize spells again. Of couse, there's other, artificial means to induce this like the waters of the rivers Styx and Leethe or something like a dire curse. Then the character should just go back out and squash ogres their way back to original level, learning a new way.

Some classes probably should never lose class levels without some serious hardship simply because it makes little sense. You can't forget the fact you mummified half your organs or enacted rituals that pretty much twisted your entire being to something wildly different from birth. That sort of thing could probably only be undone with wish-level reality-altering power.

But Amia is Amia and policy seems pretty loose in an effort to be accomodating. Sometimes our characters just have to accept Johhny Swordswinger yesterday is now Johnny Spellslinger today. Amia NWN is a wildly different beast than PnP canon because it must be, most of which can be imagined away by creating some artificial explanation that would separate the islands metaphysical reality from the rest of the Toril's for some reason. (Amia could be the tinkering and testing place of Ao, a demiplane ruled by the whims of a mysterious unknowable being patched offshore to Faerun, a land whose reality is warped by a mysterious artifact, or all in the imagination of a little autistic boy who spends his days staring at his older brother's collection of badass '70s fantasy power metal album covers, etc.)

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Mind that we also have a level cap. In theory, you could keep leveling forever. (But even then, it does not make sense why an epic mage takes several times the XP to learn the basics of roguehood compared to a beginning adventurer.) When you want to pick up a new profession, you just take levels in it. On Amia, you don't go over 30. But from an IC perspective, that obviously doesn't mean your PC becomes incapable of learning anything. "Oh sorry, you can already summon a dragon, it will be impossible for you to learn how to pick a lock or knock someone over with your shield."

I am more inclined to say that maintaining your levels requires conscious effort. If you start to learn an entirely different career, you might lose your previous levels. In 2e it works a little different, when multiclassing makes your abilities inactive until the new class reaches the level of the old (or whatever). That idea is a little different, but it shows that going off to do something entirely different means you may not have the capacity to hold onto your previous skills.

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I think I get the jist of what you're trying to say. I like the idea that being a powerful adventurer takes... upkeep, due to the nature of arbitrary level caps. If we've got a full cup, and want to add something else to the mix, the free space has to come from somewhere. Maybe the PCs just don't have the time or concentration needed to juggle all the things they're doing with equal proficiency, otherwise PCs would just be Elder Scrolls 'Masters of Everything'.

Limits and boundaries to work within are good, I think-- fluid ones moreso.

Obligatory disclaimer: The following are my views and opinions. My thoughts stem from the in-game mechanics, the little bits of lore that are given, and music and performers from the real world. This is how I play my bard, and this is my cup of tea. ^_^ If it isn't yours, then let us discuss!


How does bardic magic work?

I know this has been touched on in the posts above, but I believe that bard magic is just a type of sorcery. The method of casting is similar, but the source and total process is different. Whereas sorcerers cast from ideas and an innate knowledge of spells in existence; I picture bardic magic as simply being the magic of creation. They wish to create something, they get a picture in their mind's eye, and they have an innate inkling about how to make that vision come to life.

This visionary quality can be used for traditional entertainment, or other forms of art, or even in battle -without- necessarily using magic. With that logic in mind, I think that their magic is innate in the sense that it can be very instinctual. I believe people can be predisposed to being bards. Having an ear for music and having the talent to carry it out legitimately runs through families IRL, so why not in lore as well? This is also how I would explain the bard/sorcerer prerequisite for the Dragon Disciple class. You're imbued with the magic in your bloodline, it's up to the character to hone the instincts.

I like the idea that bards have an intimate knowledge of the structure of music, such as the structure of the magical Weaves. I would further this by saying that bards know how the two can interact and help one structure illicit and affect the other.


Do bards have spellbooks? Can they have spellbooks?

I don't like thinking of bards having a concrete spellbook, I picture it more as a varied repertoire. Perhaps not as... ornate as what Yoss described. Think of a journal with scrawlings of ideas, notes on spells, general feelings and images. A manifesto of desired outcomes. Emilie calls this her 'songbook', but it's more than just sheet music and lyrics, it has a lot of writing-in-the-margins madness too.

That said, a bard could have a traditional spellbook, if that's what gives them their inspiration. I just don't think it works quite the same as a wizard or sorcerer's spellbook.


How do bards learn? Prodigies or Colleges?

I think that you can have either flavor of bard: the prodigies who are simply gifted with the connection and understanding from a young age to the point where they can harness it on their own or you can have the studied lore-bards who gather in colleges and read magic books for inspiration for their own casting.

However! At the end of the day, the magic needs to come from them. It's not a matter of reading a book or a scroll. They have to develop the ear, understanding, and ability all on their own. Just like learning an instrument, you can read all the books you want in order to understand music theory, but you have to be able to do something with it when it's just you and the music.


What are the similarities and differences when compared to sorcerers and wizards?

Bards make their distinction from sorcerers from bending the rules to create as they please. Sorcerers are still bound by prescribed ideas of magic. I think both classes run off of emotion as a basic power source, but I feel like emotions are more likely to affect a sorcerer. Emotion can be one way for a bard to find the inspiration to cast magic, but I don't think it's isolated to just emotion alone. In my opinion, the only way emotion could really affect a bard's magic is if it inhibited their inspiration/vision/voice/ability to create.

I also think it's a little harder for bards to follow the rules when they can easily see the ways around them. Abiding laws and staying in a tight structure can feel tedious and limiting. This may only apply to charisma bards and the more diversely artistic bards, but that's the way I justify the “No Lawful Bards” rule.

Lore is also another facet I think should be a distinguishing factor between bards and sorcerers. Bards are the ones that pass down history in one form or another, so they possess the burden of legacy.


How do bards lose levels?

I think that bards are capable of losing levels. It can be a simple matter of letting time wane their mundane skills and magical abilities to cast and create. However, I think the more likely possibility for a bard losing their levels is a drastic inhibition to their vision. You can think of it like writer's block.

This is going to sound melodramatic, but at least for the characters where bard is their primary class, I would picture the process being close to Falling. Losing touch with themselves, their world view, or just not giving enough fucks to create anymore. Loss of inspiration and reasons to provide their skills could affect their ability to perform. I've personally role-played Emilie as near-constantly teetering on this edge. That was actually the original character concept in a nutshell.


TL;DR - (Don't let go) They got the music in them.

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I'm inclined to agree with most of what you said, except the bit about Sorcs being forced into prescribed spell castings. The only reason I even say anything is because you mention your thoughts are stemming from in-game mechanics. Taking the flavor blurb to heart, the spells they have ingame are chiefly manifestations of of creativity and will. A Sorcerer doesn't necessarily have to think this is how I make a fireball. He/she can think wow, I sure hope that guy over there catches on fire... I feel like flicking my nose at him like thi-OHSHITHESONFIRE! Sure, it always takes effect as what we know as Fireball, but that is just the nature of the beast. I have never seen Sorcs as the type to be so clean cut. If anything, they are usually the roughest and sporadic casters, since they are self-taught. Their spells are basically superpowers. Very rarely is there an innate knowledge of how they work, so much as there is an understanding. And I very, very doubt any 1 sorcerer's Fireball looks, feels, and is cast exactly the same way as another one's. There is probably a good amount of overlap, but assuming it is the same thing every time is kind of bland for what they are.

Now, I am significantly biased I suppose; my PC has researched Sorcerers extensively. But to get back on topic, I believe Bardic Magic can be either Wizardous or Sorcerous. Remember, classes usually are just a representation of a certain set of abilities and skills. Barring a few exceptions, you can RP it just about any way you want. Simply because the Bard has a similar gameplay method of casting as Sorcerer, it doesn't constitute a similar source and usage. That would be like saying Smite Evil and Ki Critical must share a similar internal source to a PC, because they both have daily charges.

Somewhere in the grouping of characteristics we call Bard, they pick up different spells that a Sorcerer would generally manifest or Wizard usually would learn. They can use these spells like a Sorcerer if that is their RP method, or learn them like a Wizard; there is really nothing to suggest that they cannot. Furthermore, there is nothing that explicitly that bans Arcane classes from creating something similar to these spells, like the Cure Series. That again is a vestige of gameplay . Simply put, Clerics become rather pointless if all mages could have healing, in terms of game dynamics. From an IC perspective, we can assume that such spells generally aren't widely spread through Wizard tradition, or no one has ever had the need to reverse-engineer them. On the other hand, I cant think of a reason a Sorcerer couldn't manifest a Cure spell, other than again, gameplay. All the same, you could represent a sorcerer being able to cast basic cures by taking a few Bard levels and RPing as that same sorcererous type of learning and no one could really tell you were wrong.

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So are you saying every time a bard casts a spell they are really singing or playing an instrument? What happens if they are stripped of possessions and silenced? Should bards not be able to silent spell?

Doesnt saying "magically imposed emotion" woukd mean a monk or a mind protect spell renders one immune to all bard spells even song? They have to be using the weave somehow in a traditionally arcane caster manner for at least half of their technique no?

Not trying to correct you I genuinely like your theory a lot I just want to make more sense of it while I try to roleplay my first bard myself

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Quote from D20srd.org

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Silent Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Special
Bard spells cannot be enhanced by this metamagic feat.

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A point of note on your query re: Bards and casting Silent spells.

.Aaah thanks I was looking for that on some sites but couldn't find. Now I Know!

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There are spells which can counter the silence effect though.

Personally I like bards that can learn their spells like second edition bards, but 3.5 bards don't really do that. In the "Netheril: Empire of Magic" book bards of the era were often cited working for netherese arcanists in return for new spells.

I love that idea.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

This is typically the mentality I approach whenever I try to explain Cyrene and Magic IC. So +1 To that!
I enjoy 2e Bards, what can I say?

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Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...

Yups, but at least have at least 16 int if you want to play that!

On my list of "character concepts to play one of these days" is a Brütal Legend-style bard. Using music to wield the primal energies of the world and influencing their surroundings through the power of METAL.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)