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I've done a lot of reading and I am interested in 2nd opinions.

In terms if 3.0 Forgotten Relams. I am having trouble determining if Elven Paladins of Corellon Larethian is cannon lore. I had thought Bladesingers were the closest to that type.

Yep, Corellon sponsors paladins. Amia has seen a few of them, in the years I've been here. I personally think that Divine Champion would be a better fit for elves, but paladin has always been ok too.

Paladins of Corellon are request only by my understanding. As would PrC Bladesinger be. I've only seen 2 paladin of Corellon on my time. I would strongly reccommend seeing to the DM's on these

Oh. Nyacelil is going through the Bladesinger PRC. I was just curious with a character I met claiming to be a elf paladin. Just seemed in elven and too lawful.

Quote:

In its mores and strictures, rituals and even knightly aesthetics, paladinhood is a very human institution. If you were to ask an elven scholar or theologian about paladins, he might claim there are none serving the Seldarine; the elven gods and peoples have their champions, but they are not to be confused with human paladins. In part, this is clearly true: in elven society, many of the typical ”paladin” roles and tasks are fulfilled by divine champions and, most notably, bladesingers. But among these heroes there are also those who can be identified as paladins and, thanks to centuries of cultural exchange, adopt the title as necessary. Although elves are sometimes viewed as a chaotic people because of their connection with nature, theirs is also a society of conservatism, traditionalism, loyalty to kin and queen, and complex social hierarchies. Thus the lawful paladins hardly stand out in the more civilized elven communities.

Excluding those who've lived among humans and adopted human gods, the vast majority of elven paladins serve Corellon Larethian. A handful can also be found within the cults of Angharradh and Labelas Enoreth, but even so elven paladins revere Corellon's role as the artisan of elven history, tradition, and culture, and even though they may serve the immediate interests of other Seldarine such as Angharradh and Labelas Enoreth, elven paladins ultimately acknowledge the familial order of the Seldarine. Thus, at times, it might be fair to say that elven paladins are not merely Paladins of Corellon Larethian, or Paladins of Angharradh, but as Paladins of the Seldarine, or Paladins of the Tel'Quessir, for it is the united will of the Seldarine they serve, guided ultimately by Corellon Larethian's teachings about the People's history and his visions for their future.

Amia calls them Paladins of Corellon or more loosely Paladins of the Seldarine based upon the canonical organisation "The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower". It's an exception we haven't written into our prayer script yet, but you -do not- need a request to play one.

Mosh's quote, btw, is from IronAngel's writeup here, which should be required reading for elven paladins.

No request for bladesingers, for that matter. You don't need to request to emulate prestige classes unless you intend to claim some special powers you can't emulate in game, or ignore the restrictions of the classes you use. It's only when you want DC feats or something that you need to justify it. I never had to, I just said Kall is a bladesinger and that's it. (There's not a lot to it, really.)

I was always unhappy with the concept of paladins of Corellon. But since they were a thing on Amia, better write about them than ignore them.

I didn't mean to say that they get their powers collectively from the Seldarine, though. That's an interesting take and one I am not at all opposed to, but I do find it dubious that the churches of Shevarash, Solonor, Erevan or Sashelas, for example, would have paladins in their ranks. Because it's not just about divine patronage, after all; you become a divine caster in connection with a temporal church whom you serve.

The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower aren't a paladin order at all. They're relic hunters, basically the elven Indiana Joneses. It's just one of the few "knightly orders" of Corellon (none of which are said to have paladins, though Amia has now made the leap) that are still around.

Demihuman Deities wrote:

Corellon is the divine patron of many knightly orders, many of which claim to trace their heritage and membership hack to the Time of Flowers. Such orders are typically composed largely of crusaders, warriors, and wizards (particularly fighter-mages), but their composition has varied widely over the millennia and from culture to culture.

Notable orders in ages past have included the Knights of the Golden Wyrm, the Blade of Sahandrian, the Fey Staghorns, and the Swords of the Seldarine. On Evermeet, the Wings of Yathaghera, the Knights of the Alicorn, the Weavers of Bladesong, and the Vassals of the Reverend Ones are all pledged to support the Protector in the defense of the Green Isle. Few orders have remained on the mainland of Faerun since the Retreat began in the Year of Moonfall (1344 DR), but of those that remain, the Swords of Evereska are the most notable for their unwavering defense of that alpine vale. Outside of elven homelands, the most frequently encountered agents of an elven knightly order belong to the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, a loosely structured organization dedicated to the recovery of lost elven relics from long-abandoned elven realms.

Alright. Good stuff to know.

Ty my fellow elfies!

Quote:

The Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower aren't a paladin order at all. They're relic hunters, basically the elven Indiana Joneses. It's just one of the few "knightly orders" of Corellon (none of which are said to have paladins, though Amia has now made the leap) that are still around.

Yarp I know, I think we made the leap because someone over at Candlekeep made the leap and the leap was confirmed by someone else. I don't mind it personally, sure I'd prefer to have Bladesinger but even if we do add more HAK classes, adding Racial restrictive stuff is meh.

They are called bladesingers and they follow a code but they are not paladins per se.
The chaotic nature of the elves would make it unlikely that any elven god sanctions paladins.. (however should the elf go to another pantheon all bets are off)

Eizendur, sun elves are legally may be LG. %-S

Eizendur wrote:

They are called bladesingers and they follow a code but they are not paladins per se.
The chaotic nature of the elves would make it unlikely that any elven god sanctions paladins.. (however should the elf go to another pantheon all bets are off)

Bladesingers are quite different, though I did characterize them as "elven paladins" in my IC article years ago. Don't know if someone else did that, too. Their code is basically not to leave another elf helpless. The paladin article quoted above is Amia canon (and there may be some references to paladins of Corellon in the source material; I've forgotten). Whatever the case of elven paladins in the canon Realms, the Amian Seldarine sponsor the paladin class (even if the culture is somewhat different). At the very least, Corellon, Angharradh (and I assume the three deities that make her up) and Labelas Enoreth do, because they to me (and I assume Yoss, who edited it) seem like the most lawful-minded and compatible with paladin virtues of all the Seldarine.

I don't think elves are chaotic by nature. I know the books say they are, but I think that's more a result of carelessness, bias and quick conclusions on part of the designers. The elven culture of Faerûn does not portray many elements of chaos. Many elven NPCs are lawful, not least the mythical Coronal Eltargrim of Myth Drannor (LG). I've think I've listed lawful elven NPCs elsewhere, too. But the misrepresentation of elven alignment is not a can of worms we should dig into here, I guess, and there's plenty of discussion to be found on the topic in Candlekeep as well as here. My original issue with the paladin class was not with the law-chaos axis, but the fact that the cookie cutter paladin's virtues and codes of chivalry, as usually understood, didn't work too well with elven culture. But when we decided that there wasn't one set of rules paladins should all follow but instead variations specific to culture and faith, it seemed more acceptable.

But regarding the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, I didn't mean to say it may not have paladins in its ranks. Just that it's not primarily a paladin order and wouldn't be the first/default place one should look for elven paladins. Maybe no one even interpreted it that way, just making sure.

Eizendur wrote:

Post subject: Re: Elven Paladins?
Eizendur, sun elves are legally may be LG. %-S

When did i say elves can't be lawful? The lore dictates the vast majority of elves to be on the Chaotic scale (as reflected in their pantheons).

IronAngel wrote:

but the fact that the cookie cutter paladin's virtues and codes of chivalry, as usually understood, didn't work too well with elven culture. But when we decided that there wasn't one set of rules paladins should all follow but instead variations specific to culture and faith, it seemed more acceptable.

Wait does that infer that paladins here can be excused from otherwise dishonorable behavior because their deity permits it?

Not exactly. Think more like "dishonorable" as defined within the worldview of the elven paladin, which should be conceptually equitable to the human culture.

Even within human cultures you need to broaden that perception, Paladins in Mulhorand being complicit and supportive of the act of slavery. Paladins of Osiris, who is a lawful good deity, are partially tasked with seeing to the welfare of slaves. They also tolerate and even support their clerics in creating undead to guard the tombs of the nobility. In Mulhorand, especially around Mishtan, to be raised as a guardian is a massive honor and guarantee's that your soul will spend eternity in Paradise. They literally raise their own specific Mummy's that lack the evil blight stuff and are True Neutral in alignment.

Yeah, the above two. Honor and chivalry are entirely cultural concepts that vary from context to context. In some culture it might be honorable to turn the other cheek, while in another not answering a challenge to a duel is the gravest cowardice. The slavery example also applies to the church of Tyr in Calimshan. And there are plenty of ideas about how paladins "should" fight; not use stealth and illusion, no ranged weapons, so on. Stealth and illusion are obviously not considered dishonorable among gnomes, whose entire culture is based on staying out of sight and out of mind. In Tethyr, swordfight is considered the honorable means of conflict while archery is for cowards; but a paladin from the Dalelands, or an elven paladin, would always keep a bow handy. And so on.

While this isn't set in stone as far i know i think the following are good basics:

Quote:

A Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment.
A Paladin may never willfully commit an Evil act.
A Paladin cannot associate with any character who persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall - notably Evil creatures.
A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times.
A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to enemies.
A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

For example: a paladin who butchers an enemy who is on his knees pleading for mercy needs some pretty harsh justification in order to not fall in my book. from what i saw in elven rp in other games/server elven holy warriors were always borderline malicious in their disregard for non elven life.

While cultural differences may vary nuances i still don't see elves as being paladin in material if they do not willingly throw aside elven upbringing/deities.
Want a divine class that can murder babies in the name of justice? i'm sure there is one but it's not a paladin.

Then again it is up to the DM how to interpret things.

Take a look at the Lore forum entries on Paladins that Iron and I collaborated on and you will get a feel for how to interpret the differences.

I'm so very glad this has turned into yet another "you're playing your paladin wrong" thread.

MoshingChris wrote:

They literally raise their own specific Mummy's that lack the evil blight stuff and are True Neutral in alignment.

Baelnorns are undead that run the gamut of Neutral to Good as well, right? I am pretty sure an Elven Paladin of the Seldarine would not have any specific issues with them, due to their purposes. Also, is there a written reason why Elves couldn't be Paladins of non-elven Deities?

I believe Baelnorn are in actuality Deathless, a seperate but comparably similar template that falls away from the Undeath equating evil convention.

Baelnorn are undead, although indeed of a neutral/good variety. The only real difference between them and a normal lich is really that a rare few are actually granted lichdom by the Seldarine and so don't need a phylactery, but even them most Baelnorn aren't of that type and require a phylactery like any other Lich.

The idea behind Baelnorn and them being good and neutral is seemingly more tied to the fact that they are both sentient and so retain their morals from life but also the fact that unlike other Liches, Baelnorn becoming undead is not seen as an evil act as they aren't doing it for their own sake but rather it is seen as them sacrificing themselves to immortality to serve a greater good even after death.

Baelnorns are definitely undead.

Monsters of Faerun wrote:

Baelnorn: Baelnorns are elven liches who have sought undeath to become the backbones of their families, seldom-seen sources of magic, wise counsel, and guardianship. In ancient Myth Drannor, they stood watch against thieves, protected journeying elves, kept family lore, and tutored young wizards in magic. Since the fall of that elven city, they remain in its ruins, standing guard over deep vaults holding powerful spellbooks and magic items. Baelnorns are tall, impressive-looking undead elves with shriveled skin and glowing white eyes. They do not radiate an aura of fear, nor do they have phylacteries (though some do make use of the clone spell), but they otherwise share the standard powers and abilities of liches. They can turn undead as a good cleric of their own level, and also have the ability to create a projection.

Interestingly enough Humans also have a variety of Good Liches called an Archlich. Rather than becoming a lich to avoid death or for personal gain and glory, they become a lich to further a noble ideal or goal.

Did Monsters of Faerun come out before or after Book of Exalted Deeds?

Monsters of Faerun was 2001, Book of Exalted Deeds was 2003.

The concept of "Deathless" isn't really well-integrated into 3rd Edition. It's probably more fitting for baelnorn (and for Tormite crypt guardians and so on), but most of that stuff was already solidly defined by the time Deathlessness got thought up. So we're stuck with off-kilter lore.

Before.

BoED doesn't over-rule MoF in this instance or at least hasn't in the entire time I've played on the server. It's a gray area I will grant you that much. I think the key point is;

BoED wrote:

However, while undead represent a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, the deathless merely stave off the inevitability of death for a short time in order to accomplish a righteous purpose.

vs

MoF wrote:

Baelnorns are elven liches who have sought undeath to become the backbones of their families, seldom-seen sources of magic, wise counsel, and guardianship.

I don't think it's off-kilter. I usually take the realms specific stuff over non-realms specific stuff as more canon than not.

MoF is FR specific, it should take priority cannon wise over BoED (even if that is a newer release) since I believe that was a general D&D book.

Yarp. That's what I was trying to say.

I was under the impression Baelnorn are definitely undead, and I prefer it that way. Calling them Deathless seems like a cop-out by the setting creator to avoid there being moral ambiguity. Makes it too easy to say “All undead are bad, but these are okay, cuz theyre not really undead, cuz we said so.”

Fact remains there are good undead, as any paladin or cleric of one of the Mulhorandi gods will attest. And I wouldn't even call them good so much as culturally sanctioned. I see Baelnorn as similar to this.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Calling them Deathless seems like a cop-out by the setting creator to avoid there being moral ambiguity. Makes it too easy to say “All undead are bad, but these are okay, cuz theyre not really undead, cuz we said so.”

I actually really like this concept. Some of the better Paladin roleplay that I have seen in my time revolved around when actions or theories were questioned, resolves challenged, and when Paladins actually had to make difficult choices that mattered. Following a manual of "yes/no" for roleplay may be a big part of some classes due to restrictions and duties, but the gray areas are where things tend to be the most interesting. I think this is a good argument for player and DM interpretation, where the most interesting ideas often win out. I can imagine an Elven Paladin with a different ruleset based on their Deities having a discussion or a run-in with someone of a different culture who operates under different assumptions. Then again, I like cross-culture discussion in general.

I've always understood elven paladins to be a very rare thing (someone already mentioned the special order of Corellon), since elves are a chaotic race tending to good or neutrality. That doesn't mean that they can't be evil either, like the Eldreth Veluuthra (if it wasn't for Gael I'd make an elf who belonged to them).

There are other systems where the paladin is actually the ideal alignment of his or her deity--a paladin of a CE god would be much different from a paladin of a LG god, and they'd fall if they strayed from their gods' alignments. I used to think that this would be a better way to run paladins in NWN until I realized that this would weasel in an allowance of LG assassins, Lawful barbarians, Chaotic monks, and make the Blackguard prestige class pointless.

You can be a Paladin of a CE God?

I know a lot of Gods that support Paladins aren't themselves Lawful, but I don't see why that keeps LG Paladins from being Lawful by following a way of life based on their Chaotic god's dogma and features. Corellon Larethian is CG, but just because he is doesn't make it weird for his followers to be Lawful to his words and their own duties. I would imagine Elven Paladins to be more rare in general, though, because Elves have a different relationship with their Pantheon and there are a lot of ways in which an Elf can serve it.

A divine caster in the Forgotten Realms needs to be within one alignment-step of the deity which grants her spells. So, paladins are only called by LG, NG, and LN gods.

Amia has traditionally recognized two exceptions, both CG: Corellon/Seldarine, and Sune.

Baelnorns should be undead liches and not deathless. And I do not see any difficulty for an elven paladin/cleric to tolerate them. Every and each elf knows that the older they grow the stronger the calling to West becomes, to move to Arvador. Those individuals who are granted to become baelnorns are selfless and do it for the community and for the People. In order to keep safe elven culture and elven people they have accepted to remain in this plane and not join their loved ones until their task is done. To meet an baelnorn is an honor, as the sacrifice the individual has done is for the community and one recognized by the Seldarine, a cause they have deemed fit to grant a special lichdom to the individual.

And by the books, elven paladins are rare... Well, elven paladins of Correllon are rare. Meeting one should be quite an honor actually, much like meeting an bladesinger should be.

As well the differences between bladesinger and paladin are quite prominent in my eyes. Sure, the two have a lot of common, but there is a great deal that sets the two classes apart from each others, I would like to think that bladesinger is actually far more highly valued than a paladin of Corellon. But that is just me.

Mercedes wrote:

You can be a Paladin of a CE God?

Not in NWN, no. I've seen it in other systems where paladins were restricted to the alignment of their gods, including CE gods. NWN's class system prevents that from working here.

Undeath and Elves always was interesting to me, as many an elf/player sees Undead = Evil thus bad. It would be interesting to see a Baelnorn appear for the elves at some point, just to see how they react. I would not be surprised at all if someone did not try to kill it. And yes Elven Undead are not about selfish prolonging of life but about giving up their afterlife to help The People. I recall besides Baelnorn there is something of an elven Army of the Dead that, as i remember reading, though i dont know the source, is a group of elven warriors, that choose to give up peace in their afterlife to train for all time to be called in times of great need. I think i read about them in Elves of Faerun, which i believe took most of its info from lots of canon sources. If its wrong that is a shame, as i quite like the idea and it builds off of the Baelnorn thing so its hardly a stretch.

I think a lot of the G-E/C-L scale is based on Kelemvor's perspective.

I do LPs too!

The alignment scales for undead are a combination of Kelemvor's views and how Myrkul did things. The latter actively made death something to fear and utilized undead extensively to further that goal. Most necromancers then could be seen as 'evil' for going along with that god and what he did (Also most Undead-creation spells have 'evil' in the descriptor which is the biggest flag there can be). Then Kelemvor came along and basically continued that line of 'undead are bad things', keeping them mostly Evil. Jergal just doesn't care, and undead can be on the Neutral spectrum (Probably TN) if they're raised in his service to continue some function. Think kind of like those zombie workers at the start of Planescape Torment or something, I think. And of course the new patron of necromancers, Velsharoon, is full out Evil and egotistical, which does not help that spectrum.

Elven undead/Baelnorns follow completely different moral and ethical codes, but felt like outlining the 'typical' human/DnD/FR outlook on undead and 'why' it's how it is.

Magiros wrote:

I would like to think that bladesinger is actually far more highly valued than a paladin of Corellon. But that is just me.

Corellion taught the first bladesinger himself the bladesong. He didn't teach a first paladin to paladin.

Where is that legend about Corellon from? It's not in Complete Warrior or The Complete Book of Elves, the only two sources I am aware of. It's a pretty misleading statement anyway, given that bladesingers just require physical and magical practice, whereas the very existance and power of a paladin proves Corellon's daily approval. As a divine class, the claim to divine sanction is not hard to make.

I would be wary about generalisations regarding what's more highly valued in a given community, anyway. There are different kinds of elven settlements and cultures, with different ideologies, histories and dominant faiths. Bladesingers are the archetypical elven heroes, but paladins are champions of the most important elven churches. In highly religious circles, the latter would probably get a fair deal of respect. But most importantly, people tend to gain respect for what they do, not what class they've taken. I could easily claim Kalliniel deserves abnormally high respect in Winya for being perhaps the first Amian bladesinger (at least as regards DC requests) and being a member of the oldest Winyan knightly order. But that would just empty talk, because fact is he hasn't earned the respect of Winyan NPCs or PCs of late. That he's a bladesinger does not weigh as much as what common rogue/fighter may have done in service to the city.

IronAngel wrote:

... given that bladesingers just require physical and magical practice ...

Unless I am mistaken, Bladesingers utilize a very, very specific fighting style. One could say that an exclusive martial art passed down from teacher to student over thousands of years just requires physical and mental training, but you'd never realistically be one of them unless you were trained properly. That's why a lot of fiction pits rival martial arts schools against one another, to "prove whose style is better." These instances often have secret techniques etc. passed down through generations and are held as secrecy.

In a phrase: Bladesingers are Jedi.

And my PC is of course a Sith. Which are cooler.

Yes, but that has no bearing whatsoever on my point.

IronAngel wrote:

Yes, but that has no bearing whatsoever on my point.

As a paladin, you're taking up the cause of going out into the world and spreading the Dogma of Corellon. You're making a personal sacrifice and getting the power to physically promote his Dogma through worship. That's going to give you some brownie points in any good traditional Elven community--maybe less so among the Wild Elves, or those Wood Elves who worship the Seldarine through the various totemic aspects of Rillifane

A bladesinger, however, is a member of an ancient Elven tradition that is considered as much of an art as it is a fighting style. It's supposed to be very difficult, very elven specific (aside from the more generalist class of Paladin,) and participating in keeping the tradition alive is working to defend not only Elven civilizations, but culture as well.

You're just probably going to get more cool points having worked on your Elven art for years under a master and continuing a proud heritage than simply doing the Seldarine's will through power given to them. That's not to say Paladins don't train, of course. I'd like to imagine the situation as similar to how Arcane Archers work. It's not as much of an Art as bladesinging, but it's a powerful cultural tradition that lets elves feel even more distinct in comparison to the other races.

TLDR; Paladins are in service to the people, Bladesinging is an Art.

Olin Gisir are cooler than Bladestinkers anyway.

Yes, but my point was simply a rebuttal to GolbezLunar: s/he claimed bladesingers get more respect because it's a gift from Corellon (citation required) unlike paladinhood. From the purely religious perspective, the situation is in fact quite the opposite: paladins are the ones who get active divine sponsorship, whereas any elf with sufficient mental and physical potential (including drow and forsaken baddies) can learn bladesong under a mortal tutor.

I do think bladesingers are the more archetypical elven champions, and their position in society is more established. They play a visible role in Amia's early history, too.

It's neither the divine blessing nor the specialized training that mark paladins and bladesingers as special. It's their self-sacrifice, dedicating themselves to the service of the People above their own desires. That's common to both paladins and bladesingers.

I imagine them to be similar in a cultural sense, more than anything else. Whether he actually taught the first Bladesinger or not, Corellon himself uses both blade and magic. You can see it in his Deities and Demigods stats(Fighter 19/Wizard 20/Cleric 10) and of course his divine portfolio. I could easily see early elves watching their god-king fight against the orcish pantheon and attempting to mimic his style of intertwining both swordplay and Art.

In that sense, Bladesingers might be seen as trying to fashion themselves in Corellon's image, while his paladins do the same, but through faith and spirituality. Sort of like asceticism vs aestheticism, or what a preacher is to a missionary. Not that that has to be the case, but it is one that I've always found plausible.

Elven Paladins?

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