People seem to draw the line of what is acceptable to them and can't possible fathom how certain build combinations can exist. And some people have no line. Everything is fair game to them.

Obviously people draw a line in the sand at different stages.
- Paladin Sorc, Skill Dump Classes, SD6, Bard/PM/Barb

I think I have a line and Bard/PM/Bard is close to it.
Paladin / Rogue is another I'd consider cheesy. (Unless a the paladin worships Baravar Cloakshadow or deity known to support traps and ambushes)

I think Bard/PM/Barb sounds cheesy because it's a hard concept to understand. And because PM in a melee build instantly sounds powerful, (Immune to critical hits.)
But one of the best characters I've ever seen was a Bard/PM/Bard on another server. He kept the arm hidden for years. And when the full story came out it asked a lot of hard questions of other players. When everyone found out no once cared OOC because of the persons role play and back story were A) Believable B) Well thought out and well role played.

I find myself agreeing with Hackums and Uberuce; that a good story can make any build possible.
And I generally have this attitude. I don't tend to worry about another players build. I tend to let their actions do the talking.

_________________
Little Libba
Roruk Steelshadow
Morten Morrowcroft

This.

_________________
Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

I should say that although 1 level dips of bard are a pet peeve of mine, I'm not actually going to think less of anyone based on what their character builds are.

_________________
NWN Login: Havicus

Active Characters:
Souris, Former Bendir Dale Councillor, now alleged assassin and general hobo
Haren Mariq, Witch of the Southwestern Wind, and High Poultrymancer
Elaneth Merwick, Elfling Arcane Archer

For some further background to my opinions, I had a Barb24/BG4/Rogue2 that was RPly a complete split personality. He was actually, as far as Mister Judgeypants aka Kelemvor was concerned, a horrible demon-pacting scumbag with a propensity for extreme and unruly violence.

However, being an insane scumbag, he had an angel-on-the-shoulder alter ego that was basically a Paladin, and was in charge of his body, except for his mouth, so the two of them would argue in front of other people, and/or insult and provoke them into a fight while apologising and suing for peace, or praise their ebilness while begging them to repent. So the Chaotic Stupid part was locked up by the Gentle Goodly half....until it let him out the cage, at which point he'd kill all the goodies and monsters in sight. This meant he only ever Raged when soloing or partied with overt Ebils.

I took a break from Amia while still playing him, during which the BG fix came in, Ferocity Rage lost its Haste and he became a shadow of his former and overpowered self and he kinda drifted into obscurity, but I never forgot his RP, which I really enjoyed doing.

I fancied bringing that kinda of double act trapped in one body back, but it was bloody tiring, having to type for two people, and I haven't got my old Amian quick typing mojo back yet. So I tweaked it to a milder form of being a buddy movie between the uncultured grunt and a sensitive poet.

Looked around for a few builds to fit that, and obviously Barb/Bard fit the bill best, but I admit I am a powergaming twunt, so couldn't say no to Master Scout5, so the sensitive poet is a hippie treehugger poet who loves to sleep under the stars and find out all about the bunnies and their charming little footprints and write odes to beautiful views and if pressed will use the grace and art of defencing to save them and what is this bullshit? I'm not scrubbing about sniffing squirrelshit and sleeping up a fucking tree. I'm going to wotever pub's barmaid's got the biggest tits, getting hammered, then I'm going to smash stuff up with a proper sword.

I dunno... I appreciate wanting to build good builds, mechanically, as well as fun RP concepts and builds, but when you build a character specifically designed to take advantage of the most things you can squeeze into it to make it unbeatable (like bard/pm/barbarian, any two of those classes make sense (except for barbarian/PM itself), all three together don't make sense), then I already am thinking "Well, obviously they cared more about building an unbeatable pvp-bot, than building a fun story."

It doesn't help that the two people I've met who are PM/bard/barbarian have either never role played, despite me interacting with them often, or they didn't role play their classes even slightly. I wouldn't have known one of them was anything but full barbarian if they didn't explicitly tell me, and the other one I have literally never seen role play, except when the person finds me in the middle of grinding and says "Oh, yeah, you've got this. Bye."

I can't respect that kind of playing. Frugdar is designed to be maximum damage, true. But he's got a perfectly sensible build. I even gave him specific weaknesses that people can take advantage of, both mechanically and RPly, and so forth; he's just a fun character, and in some situations he's extraordinarily powerful. That kind of character I love to deal with. The kind I hate are the ones that are designed to be able to do everything better than anyone. A barby/bard/PM is designed to be able to tank anyone (literally anyone), use any magic items or spells (scrolls/wands), have good damage output (rage bonuses and self buffing), and depending on level spread, you can even get epic spells (and one of the people I know who plays this build -does have epic spells-. It's a barbarian/PM/bard who casts greater ruin and hellball, yet I haven't seen the character role play more than three lines.)

That is patently ridiculous. Anyone who plays a barbarian well should know that they aren't meant to cast a fucking spell to stop time, right after they're done going through a blind rage and trying to cut people in half. It doesn't matter that you think that's narrow minded. Look at the class in the handbook, and use some common sense. BARBARIAN. Not "generic fighter guy" who might study magic. Barbarian. A raw-meat eating, axe-wielding, savage warrior. They come in many flavors, but they are -supposed- to follow a certain trend for a -reason-.

The whole "I was captured and turned into a pvp god build because I was abused" thing might seem great, but you shouldn't have done it anyway. That opens the door for everyone to use the build and make up their own similar justification ("Well I was born a powerful sorcerer through the line of Larloch, but raised by a tribe of Uthgardt, and now I'm realizing my Larloch bloodline potential..."), and if anyone is an actual D&D player and not a powergamer, they should know that the build concept is stupid beyond belief. Palemasters study for years or even decades in magic before they become such. Barbarians hit things with axes and make art out of boogers, or if they have high INT, they think about killing things and they get angry easily and have low patience.

Yes. Let's combine the two.

_________________
Osiris Masud

I'm plainly fine with them, on the proviso that my character has at least +1 modifier for Charisma and is a people person, for good or ill.

Low-CHA characters get Rogue for their Tumbledump, and they can just like it or lump it.

So you're a Barbarian/Bard... the loremaster and healer of your tribe. You preserve the history of your people, you conduct all the annual rituals of song and feast, inspire your warriors for battle. All makes perfect sense, no?

Now, this tribe just happens to be a bunch of heretical meanies who believe in continuing life through undeath. As the tribe healer responsible for maintaining contact with the afterlife, lacking any divine casters, you study necromancy. Like the classical shaman who is expected to go through some life-threatening sickness before initiation, you are exceptional because you make the sacrifice to step outside normal life and normal body. For centuries, one or two members of the tribe have taken on the duty of pale mastery, and now it's your turn.

Plenty of other possible concepts, too. Ultimately, classes are just a collection of abilities and restrictions. The fluff is generalised statistics. It's the final product, the abilities and weaknesses your build combination has, that determines who and what you are. There's no such thing as Rogue/Fighter, IC. You're a certain type of person with certain types of skills, period.

_________________

You're all judgemental pricks ... let people play whatever they desire - Who are you to decide what's in and what's out.

Playing a sorcerer, pure or not, is a cheesebuild in itself.
Doing a cleric pure or not is too.
Or how about a paladin...

You folks here are essentially just picking on the builds that doesn't fit your universe of acceptance.

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

As for Druid/PM... anyone ever heard of Talona? Her druidic servant spreading the disease and corruption of undeath would make perfect sense. It only seems weird because the druidic stereotype, with its certain rules and restrictions, is outdated and does not mesh with the fact that in 3e the possible druid patrons were expanded into anti-druid deities. The logical consequence is that the druid class now means more a primitive caster than a follower of the ancient druidic ways. Such a character concept might need some custom spells and summons to fully realize the theme, though. Rotting, sick or undead animal companion and an animalistic PM summon.

Umberlee is also explicitly associated with aquatic undead.

EDIT: Also see Lossarwyn, the lich druid of Auril in the Eldreth Veluuthra who taught the organisation to harness nature's power for druids and rangers without patronage from the Seldarine.

_________________

One thing I can say is that if anyone's actually done indigenous studies then they would know that it's actually (in real life, I mean) really offensive to assume that people from a culture deemed 'less advanced' is in any way intellectually inferior, or not disposed to academic learning. Many of these groups may have no system of writing, but they can easily have incredibly complex systems of laws, customs, cultural lore and technology all of their own which requires a great deal of study, patience and learning.

People from tribal (ie: deemed "Barbarian") cultures in real life who do not have a system of writing will often keep oral histories which can recall long sagas and series of events which can potentially pre-date written histories from many parts of the world. That is an "Oral History", as in long massive stories which would require the ones who keep and tell stories to sit and study at the feet of their elders, for months or years on end in order to learn so that they might pass them on to the next generation. To absorb, keep, remember and to use that information. So in that sort of way it's hard to say that a Skald, or a storyteller, or a wise man from any culture who is meant to keep the lore of their group is too simple to learn any given discipline. They might go about learning that information or skill in a different way, or use methods that is preferable to someone of their culture, but they can sure as heck learn anything they put their minds to.

I really don't like to be the one to pull the 'assuming tribal cultures are stupid is pretty racist' card, but I've spent way too long in mandatory indigenous studies courses to not say that this preconception is pretty false. And while the Barbarian/Bard/Pale Master is a cheesy build, so is a whole bunch of others. I might think you're pretty farfetched, but I see nothing inherently wrong with the build.

Also: Druid/PM? I'd request they use it to emulate Blighter from Complete Divine, which is to Druids what Ur-priest is to Cleric, or Blackguard is to Paladin. They're fallen druids who rip life from the land and use it to raise a buttload of undead. Alternately: Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm. The class about loving the desert so much that you turn into a walking salted mummy, I'm fairly certain that Druids can take it.

_________________
Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

Here's what I find amusing.

Getting paged by someone explicitly wanting you to run bosses with them (a situation entirely unsuited to any type of substantial RP and a bit OOC anyway), MULTIPLE times, after they're aware of your build - because they asked about it, not because you randomly offered up the information...

...only to have them then, for some reason I can't even begin to fathom, create an entire forum subject devoted to bashing the build and the people who used it. And, later, additionally complaining that people aren't RPing the pale master aspect, even though there's absolutely no reason for them to do any of that out in public with people who are basically random nobodies. Why would someone who's hiding the fact they're Pale Master, in order to avoid getting dumped on by every dumb-ass paladin and meta-gamed out of every goodie city in the module, RP anything but their other classes?

The creation of this thread boggles my fucking mind. I guess the fact that Bard/Barb/PM exists just makes some people seriously butt-hurt because they think it's better than their character? I can't figure it.

I never said a barbarian was stupid.

I said they were not interested in extensive studies ussually which would make a barbarian wizard unlikely (How many famous barbarian/wizards are there in the FR?) Being not a bookworm doesnt make you stupid and a bard/ barb skald is an awesome rp concept imho.
Palemastertry does require extensive rituals though so to me it does require study on how to perform those, you don't just chop off an arm and replace it and add some boney parts here and there as well. Its possible but I really don't think a tribe of barb/pm's would be a great idea.

I agree a persons rp is their own to decide upon as is their build. But a build has to be supported by viable rp on Amia (and thats for the DM's to judge upon.) I quite enjoy reading about people's (Hackums, Iron's, Ruce's, Murkoph's) ideas even if I don't always agree its a good idea.

However, this is a discussion so I think I am quite entitled to give my opinion here and I take offense to responses like Muspelkvist's. I am not telling people what to rp and what not. I am offering an opinion and that does not make me a judgemental prick, thank you very much.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

if he got inspired by x event to create y thread there's no harm in that.

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

Human? This whole 'having an opinion' thing is pretty common on this planet...

Jesus would be ashamed

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

There comes a point when hiding your pm levels becomes difficult and there has been numerous topics of it and last I saw even the DM team publicly asked for players input on how to treat such situations.

_________________

Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

While the reasoning (ic'ly) is sound enough and I can find myself in your position oocly I find the way you choose to describe paladins and seems to think half the server population metagames not amusing at all.

MisterLich post above could have been less agressively worded as well. If you think something rediculous it doesnt mean it is ridiculous. You shouldnt judge if you don't have acess to most of the relevant data. Thats a DM's call.

Lets keep the forums civil by avoiding insulting others or their way of roleplaying even if you dont agree with it folks. We're playing a game here so lets try to enjoy it and let others enjoy it as well.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

Doesn't this topic now fall under the "specific incidents" category, giving us a good excuse to lock it?

_________________

I've not done a Bard skill dump ever, in fact I've only ever done Rogue once, looking in to my characters. But:



Neither do I. It's a biased desire to see more people involved in a niche RP that, personally, I have enjoyed. In fact, during Rico's final levels I was subject to some rude OOC comments about aiming to be a 20 SD, but as Iron said above me this isn't the time to name the specific incident. All I'll say is, if you're judgemental about someone's build and that changes your opinion of them, fine, but don't OOCly go out of your way to belittle their roleplay.



Is this an issue? I mean really? Does some one HAVE to roleplay their CLASSES publically all the time? I understand that your characters class is a big portion to what they are, but if I'm an Assassin, I'm not going to sit in Bendir Dale's roads roleplaying being an Assassin as I'd get kicked out, for example.



But define perfectly sensible? There is no lore or ruling that says Bard/PM/Barb can't exist, but if you yourself admit to min/maxing, is the only difference that your build seems to be sensible because you aren't mish-mashing three classes that, stereotypically, have somewhat vastly different lore?

I'll point you to:



I understand your point, Lich, but I can't fathom why you'd think less of someone who doesn't want to show off their Palemaster levels to you? Is it because you have a vision as to what you think a Bard/PM/Barb should be roleplayed and if someone isn't doing that for you, that's no good for you?

One of my biggest gripes is someone complaining about a Paladin/Rogue build. Yes, Paladins are insanely powerful and yes, the skill dump only furthers that compared to a full Paladin, but you CAN roleplay the Rogue level that isn't stereotypical! As I said in my first response to Tanzek, I've only ever done a Rogue dump once, for Dian my Paladin/KC/Rogue Hin. Did I roleplay her as an inspiring Paladin who took to just stabbing people in to the back? No. Did I roleplay her as an inspiring Paladin who's combat style is typical of a Hin, where you attempt to strike the most vulnerable parts to a tall being to bring them down, thus representing from the extra sneak attack damage? Yes.

I think the issue here is, unless someone sits and tells you their life story, you're not content with them building a cheesy build.

I wish to see more people delve in to certain PrCs like SD, but if someone takes levels and doesn't, it does not affect my opinion of them as a player and most certainly not as a character.

EDIT: Lots of spelling edits because I've not long woken up.

_________________

i think people would build differently if tumble and umd weren't locked to a few set of classes.

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

^ that

_________________
Ssinssrin The Devout Scourge!
Zarsara. Drow ftw

Oh, I agree it's unlikely that you'll get a barbarian/wizard multiclass, if anything I find it more likely that you'll get Barbarian/Sorcerors. As in, magicians who can wield arcane power through accident of having their great^32 grandparent be a randy copper dragon with a love of pliable mammal flesh, and use that power through sheer force of willpower and personality. Magic doesn't only work in one way in this setting, after all.

In leading up to Wizardbarians, I'd like to say that one thing I find people tend to forget in these sorts of 'this is my character concept, this is my build' arguments is that; a character, if they are indeed a real character, with real personality will change. You can give them all the backstory depth you want, but if they are exactly the same at level 30 as they were at level 1 then you can't say they've had any form of growth at all and are more statuary than characterful.

A Pale Master is not a Pale Master from the beginning, they need to consciously make the choice to make themself less than, and simultaneously more than a mere mortal human wizard/sorceror/bard. If you play it properly, you should do as Dead said and have a viable reason for wanting to do it; and you should play out having convictions, struggles, and indeed doubts about what you're doing by mortifying your own flesh and soul for the sake of the mixed blessings pale mastery gives you. What I disagree with Dead on is the notion that there is only one path of pale mastery: That of scholarship and contemplation. I've seen a few of Lucius' rituals, and while I admit they're pretty awesome to watch, I would feel that following the path Dead has laid forth on my Pale Master would rob me of being able to make my own story.

Pale Masters can easily be scholars in a Tarkuul basement, but can also be mad sorcerors tearing holes in reality to barter for the steps on path to undeath from Orcus, relic hunters seeking out lost tomes with rites that make you one of the undying, greedy merchants paying corrupt clerics a fortune for an eternity of idle pleasure and an assured empire, perverse necrophiles who dissect old mummies and experiment on themselves when there's nothing else to hand, or vampire hunters who have stared at the void too long and seek the powers of necromancy to use the power of the dead against them. Each one of these is a different story, and one which everyone should enjoy being a part of or playing through. Why would you want to make an exact copy of someone else's story?

This really applies to any class. Is the Cleric just a humble priest? A righteous crusader? A scholar of divine secrets? A torturous inquisitor? Is the Bard a singer and poet? A librarian lorekeeper? A seeker of draconic mysteries? Noble Herald? Is the barbarian a drunken viking berserker? A desert nomad who fights as if in a whirling dervish trance? How about a knightly duellist with a vicious temper on account of being raised a spoiled brat who answers to no one? A tired old soldier who knows that their anger makes them a danger to everyone they love, but has to fight as it's all they can do?

Everything is open to interpretation. Some combinations are harder to explain than others. A Wizard/Barbarian? How about a traveling scholar whom upon tasting the mead at Maeduselde falls in love with the way of life and takes up their customs, unleashing all his pent up rage from apprentices in the wizard tower chewing gum and passing notes in his lectures? A Barbarian who arrives at the Triumvir and grows to love the light and sound of their illusions, but hasn't the arcane bloodline needed to learn it and commences studying just so they can make something beautiful of their own? A wizard who experiments with alchemical means of inducing a truly legendary berserker rage and wants everyone to try his latest breed of combat stimulants while they're out hunting? A monster slayer from the endless wastes who genuinely struggles to learn arcane tricks to give them an edge over demons and monsters, but perseveres because of their burgeoning friendship/romance with the one who has the grace and patience to teach them?

I guess the long story short is, remember that the only thing standard about any class is what they can do. How they learned those abilities could come about from any number of places or stories. But the important thing is to keep their entire progression fun for all involved and consistent.

_________________
Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

ITT

In seriousness, my opinion has already been stated for the most part. If it can be built, it can be RPed. Whether that is to anyone's particular smell or taste doesn't really matter. That is not to say make things that are three-legged chickens for the hell of it, but as it was said, concept first, build second. I know many people don't give half a rat's ass about the former, unfortunately, but those people are the people that will do it regardless of intangible people on the internets browbeating them. The people that worry about builds first are probably the same that sit down in a new game and immediately try to figure out the “best” way to break the game. It is a game, and some people just want to “win.” End of the day, nothing you can really do except make an emphasis on rewarding RP and story with things that make relying on bare mechanics look paltry, flimsy, and ultimately 1-dimensional in comparison. We have made steps towards that, but that is perhaps a different thread.

To get back on track, classes are a representation of skills, abilities, and talents. No PC is an X, so much they are an individual who shares traits and characteristics associated with those names and titles. I.E. There is no book that each and every medical doctor reads, worldwide, that dictates what a doctor knows. Rather, it is a career and aspiration. The people that call themselves doctors surely have some similar knowledge and abilities, but can differ greatly in skill and a specialization. Now of course there are organizations that say a doctor must know this, but hey, do you really think a MD degree from North Korea entails all the same cultural practices and knowledge as one from Saudi Arabia? Your Paladin/Rogue isnt someone who tries to be both archetypes of a holy knight and a pickpocket. He is something that is ICly a blend of both knowledges and abilities, to whatever extent his build suggests. And it can suggest tons of different things.

To say “there is no way to properly RP a build, period” is both lacking in imagination and insulting to people who have it. And I say that with full knowledge of plenty of builds played that make bile rise in my throat because I know people have gone the route of ye olde munchin and said to hell with story. But hey, it's a game, and when it is all said and done, I don't care what gets other peoples rocks off, so long as it isn't obnoxious to the purpose of the server: roleplay.

_________________

Good points Murkoph. A well worded argument I can defenitely agree with.

And yes again; If roleplayed properly you can go pretty much crazy with a mix of classes. But I am glad we have the DM team to keep an eye on that process.

And you're right Muspelkvist, people would likely omit the 1 rogue/bard/monk level if tumble and UMD were more widely avaideble to classes.
But as it is you just kinda shoot yourself in the foot if you don't take the 3 extra ac (1 more then an epic feat!) for most builds. Same for UMD.
And for that very reason I wouldn't frown at anyone for crossclassing there and that includes a paladin that takes a rogue level.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

It doesn't even sound. It reeks of butt and old cheese. Everyone his mother who wanted to have a wannabe awesome character had this character concept. Hells I had it when I first started on Amia. (yes it involved PM, though not with Barbarian *pukes*) It is not original, it is not unique, and it makes no sense. It's just cheesy.


She does. Her druids do not. I am expecting that you are fully aware of this. Why are you trying to prove a point when you know that your argument is invalid in its essence? As for your little undead worshipping barbarian, I have thought of it. It is not a character concept. It is a build concept. You do not get to justify terrifying rage, crit immunity and bard skill dump by any story. We will always know why you have chosen that build. There is no way around it. Also MrLich did not name anyone, and those who found themselves responsible of this thread being opened.. well.. I have expressed my feelings in my first post in this thread


I was rather clear in the lore thread I made.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

Oop, my bad there sorry. I must have misunderstood what you meant by 'RP their Palemasters properly', as meaning through ritual or whatever here:

_________________
Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

I am sure you can word this without wording it so offensively. The fact that you play a PM does not make your opinion a fact on Amia.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

Because you just arbitrarily say so.

We are concerned here with evaluation of what makes sense for our setting and story. "They just don't" is not a convincing argument. We have already thrown strict paladin lore out the window with the canonical articles I wrote, adapted to the richness of the Forgotten Realms. I've shown, several times, the development of the Druid class between editions and the inherent inconsistencies. The druid charcicature in the Player's Handbook (who gets his powers directly from nature and only exceptionally from deities, no less) is not representative of the various druids of Faerûn. And to be exact, it does not even include mention of undead in the Ex-Druids section which describes the parameters of acceptable druidism. I just gave you a canonical example of an undead druid of Auril, which should be the final straw in an already overwhelmingly convincing argument.

Divine casters are above all loyal to the will and dogma of their patron, and to the church hierarchy. This is the official Amia canon we've judged the most sensible and which we follow consistently when it comes to paladins. If I were to write "Druids of the Realms" articles, they would follow the same rule. Generic, Greyhawk class rules are the basis which may or may not be overwritten by specific IC traditions and arguments.

There is absolutely no doubt, when it comes to lore and common sense, that druids of the Furies (not traditional druids at all, since they are anti-druid deities) don't follow all the strictures of classic druid society and can indeed deal with undead if it serves their cause. This is so blatantly obvious and beyond argument that any objections come across as trolling, really.


As far as PMs go, they're just people who get undead-related abilities. I hope nobody is role-playing them as simply as that, but it's the mechanical minimum. They may not even be role-played as the Pale Master class, given that you are free to emulate any concept with NWN classes as long as you adhere to the inherent, mechanical restrictions of the class and don't claim additional powers (and there are some special cases, listed in R&L, that require a request).


Anyway, our feelings and the motivations of other players don't really matter. Unless we can prove with logical inevitability that something is impossible and should not happen, we have no business interfering pre-emptively. Bad players deserve the cold shoulder once they're proven to be bad, in game. Concepts are all potentially interesting, and everyone gets the benefit of the doubt. That's why this topic should be locked.

_________________

To explain the absolute certainty of my stance above: it derives from the principle of innocent until proven otherwise. I do not have to show that it is impossible to make a case to the contrary. I don't even have to be certain that my case is the most likely interpretation. It is enough to show that there is ample evidence, both canonical and rational, for the possibility. If you can take all the material, absorb the setting, sketch a story in your head, and reasonably come to a convincing suggestion, that's good enough. It is better to allow five players the freedom of five slightly different, plausible interpretations, than enforce one and shut out four almost equally good ideas.

It is the principle on which Amia was founded and by which it was governed for years: benefit of the doubt, trust in the player, diversity of interpretations.

_________________

Druids cannot use or accept undead. Period. Even if Velsharoon himself could sponsor a druid, his druid would be always siding against the undead. That is not something I arbitrary am saying, that is something WotC, Amararice and many other DM mentioned many, many times over the years, and you absolutely know it. I am still failing to see why are you trying to use a moot argument.



I rest my case. Palemasters and druids are the two classes I have researched for years. If you truly did not know that a druid cannot use an undead, regardless of his deity, then I am pleased that you've learned something new today.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

A druid DM said so. I'm right. End of story.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

You are wrong. Even the Player's Handbook, which is not the authoritative source for Druids in the Realms, doesn't say anything that absolute. A DM may have said it, but the DM was wrong and would change her stance given the appropriate evidence and in the face of a player request. DMs can be wrong, they can admit it and revise their stance. This is not a matter of authority, this is a matter of truth. Truth always trumps authority. We already decided and codified, years ago, our canonical stance concerning Realms-specific traditions vs. core D&D generalisations. That's not something we can go back on.

The only undead-related mention in the Druid entry of the PHB is that they hate undead and aberrations. That's it. A generalisation about their personal feelings, not even a normative statement that they consider them "wrong" or "against the tradition". In the section detailing the conditions of Ex-Druidism, undead aren't mentioned. And all this is trumped by Realmslore. Specific deities and church traditions trump core rules, period. They do so for paladins, they do so for druids.

Besides, I could just use the Druid class to emulate something else entirely. As long as I stay neutral and have a patron deity (that is, respecting the absolute mechanical rules of the class), that is within Amia's rules. If I wanted to play a Rashemi spirit shaman using an undead telthor spirit, that would be fine. That has been fine, there is DM precedent for it, and it is the standing rule. Even within canon FR, not all people with the druid-class are druids. The Furies, including Malar, have "druid" clergy, and yet they are enemies of druids and druidism. This can only mean that there are two meanings to the word. One concerns the class, a nature-themed priest. The other means the druidic tradition, organised in circles and all that complex ritual. The two overlap a lot, but evidently there are druid-class people outside the druidic tradition. This is the most crucial distinction to make, and the one which explains your mistake.

EDIT: I am not encouraging anyone to play a Druid/PM willy-nilly. You should probably make a request to get some cool custom spells and DM recognition for your RP. I am saying that, in the Realms, there are perfectly sensible possibilities for such a concept. These are exceptional people, specific cases that arise organically from the lore of the setting, not some forced concepts I made just because I can. Dogmatic opposition should not blind us to the reasonable evidence that is there and cannot be denied. You will note how Dead has not even addressed a single of my arguments, instead clinging onto a clear-cut rule that makes life simpler. But simpler is not better.

_________________

I respect Dead's obvious passion for the palemaster class and I share his sentiments mostly regarding the class combination druid/pm being impossible.

But I feel Iron does make a good argument and I agree with him that roleplaying, a good creative concept and DM permission make the differance between extremely unlikely and impossible.

Impossible after all is the bane of creativety.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

With regard to Ftr30, I think I'd find it harder to justify that ICly than a multiclass, especially to Rogue. I mean, for OOC bragging rights, going pureclass is awesome. I did it for my first few characters and it's a wonderful feeling.

ICly...we stray into the land of stretched analogy to real life fighting, so it's bound to go wrong soon, but... About 15-20 years ago, the whole Mixed Martial Arts revolution was going on, on internet forums as much as in dojos and gyms. Grappling reminds me a lot of Sneak Attack - it's absolutely about using brains to deliver maximum ouchy to a vulnerable part of the body. Rather than Xd6 per hit, you kinda save up all your dice with a lot of homoerotic rolling about that doesn't hurt the other fighter at all and then dump them all at once, at which point he or she either taps out, dies or will never walk right again without major reconstructive surgery. It was much, much much better than the traditional stand-up forms of fighting, to the extent that the first few years of MMA were a bit of a joke at how one-sided it was. A lot of the old guard had real trouble accepting they'd not been using their years of hard work as effectively as they could, and there was an ocean of denial, kicking and screaming from them, but last I looked into that world, it's just the new landscape; you can either fight on the ground or you can't fight. Anyone who says different is a trolling you or deluded.

I'd say the same thing about a pure Fighter in a landscape filled with Sneak Attacks. Broadly speaking, a 38STR Epic Spec pure Fighter hits for ~33 damage, a 22STR pure Rogue hits for 17. I don't understand how you can argue that won't be noticeable IC, but I doubt anyone argues that, so it's fine.

When flanking, the Fighter gets a slightly higher hit rate, as does the Rogue, who now hits for ~80. I don't understand how you can argue that won't be noticeable either, and that a fighter wouldn't want some of that action. It's as crazy as those people that walk into MMA tournaments having only done Tae Kwon do or boxing.

Barbarian, yeah I can see the argument against it, even if I'm not completely sold, but for the soldier? Nopes, not feeling it.

Few things.

Firstly, on the subject of Talona, Dead's correct on the way that Amian's had ruled it. The Clerics and faithful can use Undeath as often as they please, but our ruling is that it is a breach of Druidic oaths. I'm not arguing one way or another, here, because that's not really the point of this thread-- I just wanted to clarify if there was any confusion.

Secondly, Dead, I absolutely applaud and appreciate the work you do. Your Palemaster roleplay is rich and engaging, but its not the only route. We've bumped into these issues before in the past, if I recall. Its not my intention to undermine your work-- but precisely because I'm a DM, I'm going to take the stance that permits and recognizes alternative routes of roleplay. To clarify-- I highly encourage palemasters to seek Dead out. He's got all kinds of knowledge, tools, and neat roleplay for you. But there are other routes to palemastery. Do I think Dead's PM roleplay is of higher quality than the suggestion I gave at the start of this thread? Yes, hell yes. But its not the only option. Your opinion of how Palemasters should be played is ultimately your opinion. There are base figures, stats, and even likely rituals that you'll find in lore books. But your opinion on the best route remains your opinion. Dead's is an opinion I even approve of, but not the extent of excluding other options.

I never ended up playing the character, but it was a process I was going to engage the DM's with-- invite them along during the procedures, and take them step by step. To the bounds I wanted to go, would have likely required a request, but its hardly impossible. If you wanted to try that Druid/PM, it would definitely require a request, but I can't say that it would be impossible either. If I recall, the character concept I provided was set to even have an academic understanding of what was happening-- he wasn't stupid, he was desperate. And ultimately, a tool. He wasn't captured in his story, and turned into Amia's monster. It was a thorough journey of self-sacrifice for freedom of his guilt.

Oh, and also, keep it civil folks. Or it'll be locked quick. I'd hoped to have a nice discussion on something that's probably on a few player's minds, but if things stay nasty, we're not only locking threads-- but giving people vacations from the forums as well.

I appreciate the ruling concerning character creation, as long as you don't make it into a matter of lore and what's possible. You can never make a ruling on something like that. The best argument and coolest concept always wins, even if it comes five years from now. If that wasn't the case, everything about Amia would lose all legitimacy.

Druids don't really have specific oaths, though, any more than there is a universal Paladin's Code. I am not sure where that idea comes from. It's not part of the class requirement. The PHB entry does not have a sub-section titled "Oath". What is this oath supposed to be? It seems about as mysterious as the supposed "Blackguard Pact" that isn't based on any sources either.

Druids are the most misunderstood and overinterpreted class in the game. Things get repeated often enough to become taken as gospel (such as the vague reference to their negative personal feelings towards undead transforming into some metaphysical and religious doctrine). There is a strong archetype and a particular in-world tradition, but it is not synonymous with the class. The class is/should be as generic as any other. Druids are nature-themed divine casters of a neutral alignment. That's pretty much the extent of it. Everything else is negotiable fluff. The class is a confused mess of different ideas. If that wasn't the case, druids of Malar would be impossible.

_________________

I frankly prefer the idea of the Palemaster as the graftee, not that I have anything against the traditional form. "Graftee" style PM not directly in line with the extremely limited established source, but it fits. I went with a Thayan slave used as an experiment by a Thayan necromancer, grafted and "embalmed" (alchemically treated) in order to turn the weak, half-starved slave into a killing machine. I did check with DMs and it was ruled as okay that the grafts don't need to be willing - although eventually the character developed a dependency, forcing her to tread the path on her own in absence of her master. The grafts are like a car - it required an engineer to build it and get it running, and the graftee was taught the skills of a mechanic to fix it up, keep it running, and occasionally bling it up. I like how it turned out - not the typical PM, but not just someone unwillingly turned into a monster to call cheap-shots against PC morality. I felt I could go places with that. (then I got a day job and busied up with my main PC, and my free time turned to sand... and after I spent 10 DCs on this loser, too!)

And my 6SD is fantastic thankyouverymuch.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

I never appreciated the idea that you should take half your levels in a Prestige Class. They're the cherry on top, something to add flavor. It also makes no sense to go further if you don't want the additional abilities. I think it comes from the fallacious idea that classes are essential entities that you somehow "become".

None of my characters identify with their classes. They are the sum of their parts. Joon is a scholar-priest who fights with a quarterstaff and feels itchy in armor. He does not "have six monk levels" IC. The abilities it gives him make sense (except Stunning Fist - I never use that), but you would not find an oriental martial artist or practitioner of zen meditation in him no matter how hard you tried.

Dipping into classes usually makes more sense than investing a lot. If you take 20 monk levels, become a native outsider and learn all the tricks, it the explanations get narrower. Same for bard or rogue: skill dump a few levels and you're good, but invest more and you need to account for your supernatural song and exceptional trap awareness. If anything, I encourage class combinations that take the best of both worlds. There's no inherent merit in playing an archetype.

_________________

Stunning Fist makes hilarious sense for Joon, in a "Sherlock Holmes is apparently a martial artist" way. "See, I studied the [however many] pressure points, and I learned if you strike a foe here - *knee to the groin* ... You see? They can't move."

Yes, for Velden he dabbles into his classes for good reason - mostly rogue because he's a born thief. A bit of fighter, because he focused on bladework at the expense of furthering thievery. And a bit of shadowdancer, to add some cute little tricks to his repertoire. He's a trickster, jack-of-all-trades even - tries to ensure that he always has the right tool available for the right job, and the wile to know how to turn a situation to make his tools relevant. But he's not going to be a champion duelist or a shadowmaster anytime soon, not without a huge change. The spread even costs him the dream of being a true "master thief", but damned if he won't come close enough for it to count...

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Just gonna say, what one considers "cheese build" differs from what another considers cheese build. I consider every single character using a shield to be cheesy. I also consider any character with 1-2-3 levels or so in just 1 class to be fairly cheesy.

On several servers I played, you had to invest at least 3 levels in a class, or else the character was not valid. One of them was limited to level 14, and up to 16 for exceptional RP, so even on a server with so few levels compared to Amia, we had to deal with that limitation (and I wholeheartedly agreed with it too).

As for Barbarian/Bard -> Even when you take barbarian as the core cliché non-instructed roaring tribal dude, you can very easily fit bard with that. That one "savage" pirate that uses the drum for the others to row at the same time, or that one guy on the battle field that uses a horn to trigger battlecries, etc. That guy is very clearly a bard, and no less barbaric than his fellows.

If he survives (he's at the back, so there's a chance) he might also sit around the campfire and tell stories of the great warriors who fell at X battle to the young future big brutes of the tribe. If anything, I am extremely surprised that there aren't that many barbarian/bard characters around, because quite honestly, it seems to me like the very most interesting part of a barbarian tribe-based character.

Palemaster thrown in the mix? Much harder to justify, I agree. But everything can be justified through RP and events that happen IG.. it is when the character is planned from day 1 that there --usually-- is a problem / indication of powerbuilding

_________________
Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Planning prevents mistakes which lead to rebuilds.

Less attention should be paid to how 'cheesy' or how much of a powerbuild a build is and more attention paid to how much it fits the way the player is portraying their character in the first place. Just my two cents.

So it's cool if I want to do an Aasimar Bard/PM/RDD build? I swear I'm not taking the race just for the +2 CHA. Promise.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

"Dumb-ass paladin" is comment about how I feel towards the class in general,, not referring to any of the players of said paladins. And, as far as thinking half the server meta-games...

No, they don't. But I have seen some pretty meta-gamey shit out there. And in a case like this, all it takes is one person to start the ball rolling before it becomes a cascade of bullshit.

I don't know if it's "cool" but it's your business. And maybe the DMs' if you want DCs or custom items.

_________________

My god. The grass on my lawn in front of my glass house is so much greener than that other persons yard. Im going to throw some rocks onto their lawn to show them what's what.

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

You know, technically, you gave the whole server the means to metagame your character >_> I'd honestly advise to editing you know what out of one of your posts, cause I know I didn't want to find that out, hah (though it makes a lot of sense now, lol).


Shhh, relax, I was joking :3

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=51516&p=1237391#p1237391

you should all just play minecraft. where we actually can place blocks on their lawn

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

In my opinion, if a player can pull a build off with RP to explain the build then by all means go ahead. I get what you're joking at and I understand the sentiment, but your focus isn't going to be on absolutes if the idea is to promote creative freedom in RP, but more on how you'd make something actually work RP and build wise in the first place. This is generally how I approach my characters, anyways.

Also, what really sets me off with these topics is that too much attention is paid to builds by both sides of the fence. Powerbuilders/cheesebuilders/good builders or whatever aren't bad RPers and someone with a "bad" build isn't necessarily bad at the game.

Editted to be slightly less offensive