AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Double-sided weapons require exotic weapon proficiency, so, technically it'd be four feats (assuming ITWF). Which can make a difference or not, depending on build.

It's just not worth it. =/

Quote:

A double-sided weapon is a weapon designed such that both ends can be used to strike opponents. Even though these are large weapons and require two hands to wield, they do not get 150% of the strength modifier added to the damage inflicted; instead, hits from the main end have the normal (full) strength modifier added to damage, while hits from the off-hand end get half that amount added to the damage.
Not even 150% STR bonus.

Wielding a double-sided weapon automatically causes one to be dual-wielding, allowing an extra attack (or two) per combat round and incurring the standard dual-wielding penalties. These penalties are not as severe as possible, as a double-sided weapon's off-hand end counts as a light weapon, and they can be further ameliorated (as usual) with the dual wielding feats (ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting).
You still get -2AB, Like normal dual-wielding does to you

One advantage of using a double-sided weapon instead of two weapons is that both ends inflict base damage comparable to medium-sized (non-light) weapons, yet the attack penalties are those of using a small (light) weapon in the off-hand. Another advantage is that a single spell (such as magic weapon) can enchant both ends of a double-sided weapon, whereas it takes two spells to enchant two weapons. The major disadvantage of double-sided weapons is that they are exotic, and thus require a feat investment to wield. They also necessitate a weapon switch if a shield becomes desired in some circumstances, which could affect the applicability of weapon-specific feats (such as weapon focus).

Less spells used.

Exotic proficiency requried. Another feat used.
No shield in dire circumstances

The double-sided weapons in Neverwinter Nights are the dire mace, double axe, and two-bladed sword.

Source

Dubble-sided are equal to using two-weapons apart from this
They are 1d8/1d8, and potentially do more damage then dual-wielding two small/Light weapons at 1d6/1d6
Easier to enchant
1 More Mythal power
Cost 1 more feat.
Easier to disarm with (They get +4Bonus being big vs medium/Small weapons and potentially could give you extra AB)
Can't switch to a shield
Quote:
Light weapons are, for the most part, finessable.
Weapon finesse allows you to use DEX for AB
Double weapons are not Light. (Can't be finessable)
Double weapons must use STR for AB.
Ambidexterity has a 15 DEX requirement which is also a must have feat for double weapons.

I could possibly see using it as a militant bard, PM or monk (something that mitigates the loss of shield AC) that focuses on improved disarm, since you'd get the 6/7 attacks, plus the free disarm bonuses. Unfortunately, you'd be strapped for both feats and ability points.

Last edited by Mushidoz on Sat, Oct 26 2013, 14:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I recall having a weapon master character wearing a 2sided blade on another server. I had at least 9 lvls of ranger, low dex, huge str, and freaking high dmg.

Was it the strongest character I ever created? No.
Was that character weak? Hell no.

Yes, he was wearing light armor even though he would have had higher AC with a plate - AC is fairly pointless at some point when you don't have zillion of it already - you get hit anyway, so might as well focus on other things.

A solution could be to make a topic in the Improve amia forum and hope that the Team can give the dubble-sided weapons some well deserved love.. But i know that will take time since the team is horrendously backtracked
Hopefully dubble-weapons can compete with two-handed weapons in a year or so.

Edit - Yes, that was bitterness. Lots of bitterness *Sobs*

Mushidoz wrote:

Yes, he was wearing light armor even though he would have had higher AC with a plate - AC is fairly pointless at some point when you don't have zillion of it already - you get hit anyway, so might as well focus on other things.

Thats just...blatantly not correct. Unless you literally have such low AC that they would need to roll a 1 to miss you, there's no reason to not improve your AC. We accept that you like creating challenging builds and restricting yourself to improve your enjoyment of the game, and that's fine. However, in an overall balance stand-point, double-weapons are simply not as good as anything else. It's just a fact.

Nah, really, if a dm gave me an ooc lvl 30 on a character that would get deleted after (with items) I could deliver a very powerful and useful character with a 2sided blade or axe.

I've done it before.. (though it was lvl 40)

I genuinely think these weapons are underrated.
-----

As for AC, when you fight stuff that have +30 to their attack rolls, the fact that you run around with more or less 34 AC won't change much and you'd be better off with con bonuses, damage resist, regen, saves and even dexterity since it will increase your AC with your light armor (and your reflexes).

It's exactly what's happening to my dwarf - he gets hit by every epic creatures, but he just tanks them anyway due to damage resist and high constitution. Fun fact is he's far less challenging to play than my dexer Saya ^^

I'm not saying it's not possible to make a reasonably powerful character with a double-weapon. As I've said, I experimented with builds like that before. However, it's still vastly inferior to a build using dual-weapons, and that's simply a fact when you take the balance of NWN into account. As for the AC thing, I have to say that you're simply incorrect, but given that it's largely irrelevant to the point of the topic, we won't get into that further. The point is, you can't change double-weapons to balance them in comparison to the others purely because your particular decisions (refusing to use shields for one) mean that they're strong for you and weak for everyone else.

Pretty much any two weapon build ends up being inferior to the 6-8 AC a shield gives you and the fact that you don't lose AB. They should be beefed up to make them worth doing is all I'm sayin'.

@bob
More like shields shouldn't be able to have +5 AC. It isn't dual wielding or two-handed fighting that is weaker, it's that shields give too much for no effort or penalty whatsoever. If shields added penalty to dex (LIKE THEY SHOULD), then dexers wouldn't use them, and so only 1 handed str using fullplate beasts would. I don't exactly understand why wearing any type of armor (even padded armor) prevents your movement if the giant tower shield that can weight twice more than your armor will not.

Similarly, I have no idea why shields with spell-penalty reduction are not class-restricted - it basically gives 7 AC to classes that are already powerful (sorcs/wiz). Would you pick a feat that gives you a net +7 or +8 AC if you had the choice? Epic armor skin feat gives +2... getting "Wear armor" with your mage gives you +7. Balanced? I really think shields with spell penalty reduc on them should be like deity rings - you write in the description that only "Bards" should wear them or something like that.

@Mana
I'm sure you know how to end up with a good build, I've had talks with you before on Saya's ^^ Dual wield vs 2sided weapons though, I don't think 2sided weapons are weaker. It simply depends on your build.. and, in my opinion, because of how overwhelming critical works here (aka, it isn't forbidden), the 2sided weapon user will be able to do things the regular dex-dual wielder won't do (and it works both ways).

If the dex-dual wielder will have very high AC due to his high dex, the 2sided str based guy will deal more reliable (and higher) dmg and will have a much easier time to knockdown / disarm (basically disabling the enemy).

It's an underestimated type of weapons, that's all, and that comes from people not being familiar with how to build around these weapons ^^

Anyway, yeah, that is off-topic.. but since nobody even understood the problem I brought up (or wanted to admit it), there's pretty much (almost) never been a on-topic post on this thread.

It pretty much has been but I will distill it down for you:

Two Handed Weapons suck compared to Sword'n'Board and Dual Wielding.

9 times out of 10 characters that wield Two Handed weapons will use the extra mythal slot available on two handed weapons for Massive Critical, the "Third" power reflects that.

Mushidoz wrote:

I don't exactly understand why wearing any type of armor (even padded armor) prevents your movement if the giant tower shield that can weight twice more than your armor will not.

Try looking at actual numbers before you post:
Full plate weighs 50 lbs and has an armor check penalty of -8 while Tower shields have a weight of 45 lbs and an armor check penalty of -10. Also...

Mushidoz wrote:

If shields added penalty to dex (LIKE THEY SHOULD), then dexers wouldn't use them, and so only 1 handed str using fullplate beasts would.

Then dexers would be at a severe disadvantage compared to strength builds.

Mushidoz wrote:

Similarly, I have no idea why shields with spell-penalty reduction are not class-restricted - it basically gives 7 AC to classes that are already powerful (sorcs/wiz). Would you pick a feat that gives you a net +7 or +8 AC if you had the choice? Epic armor skin feat gives +2... getting "Wear armor" with your mage gives you +7. Balanced? I really think shields with spell penalty reduc on them should be like deity rings - you write in the description that only "Bards" should wear them or something like that.

Then you will see wiz/sorc builds giving up a solitary level for bard (instead of a rogue dump, and a bard dump is more powerful).
Or did you forget about bard/PMs then being able to freely use said shields, thereby making them even more powerful compared to other casters (that don't just dump a bard level to get around it).

Jumping on the double-sided weapon train before a DM conducts us to lockedville.

Playing a Double-Axe Fighter/WM/Rogue, I've found it less-than-flexible feat-wise but not entirely possible if you do not mind losing a total of 3 powers overall in your gear.

Grab those snazzy Ambidex+TWF gloves, RP your character amazingly and show their dedication to their weapon, create a good case for them and explain why getting an item that includes ITWF would benefit them both ICly and OOCly.

It really sucks that double-sided has a million faults to them, but there are ways around if you think about it.

I....I really don't understand how you can justify being a Weapon Master who specializes in a weapon that they can't competently use without gloves.

Manarethan wrote:

I....I really don't understand how you can justify being a Weapon Master who specializes in a weapon that they can't competently use without gloves.

It wasn't justification, it's just a comprimise for the current situation. I agree wholeheartedly that double-blade users are stunted from the get-go when they choose their exotic weapon feat (and I believe some races should get that feat automatically. A half-orc not using a weapon they typically use? Jeez).

With the three big feats desired for a weapon that uses off-hand to calculate their damage for anyone looking to maximise WM (Ranger levels suffer from less BAB IIRC?), using any double-sided weapon has to make some severe sacrifices. I can't physically get the feats required for WM, the feats for EWS and Dev Crit and still have enough space to optimise my weapon's off-hand. You'd be losing EWS or Dev Crit to fit in enough feats for you to swing your weapon without much penalty, but all you've done is lower your BAB/Crit range. It's a really hard choice when you've already lost a feat thanks to exotic weapon requirement.

Quote:

Try looking at actual numbers before you post:
Full plate weighs 50 lbs and has an armor check penalty of -8 while Tower shields have a weight of 45 lbs and an armor check penalty of -10. Also...

What are you talking about? Skill penalties? Are you really bothered when you lose 10 tumble in fight? or 10 open lock? I don't consider that a downside. Now..
1 ) 50 lbs for the fullplate and your DEX armor is limited to 1. 45 lbs for the giant shield you carry on one arm, and it doesn't stop your mobility whatsoever. That, to me, is bull.

2 ) There are other armors than just the fullplates. If you are a dexer, you likely aren't wearing a fullplate, so your tower shield is ---significantly--- heavier than your armor. Whether you wear a robe, padded armor, or whatever, that shield is way heavier than the armor that limits your movement.

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Then dexers would be at a severe disadvantage compared to strength builds.

No, they wouldn't. They don't need shields. Anyone who fought alongside Saya would know just how freaking hard a character can be to hit even without a shield. If Saya was build differently, she could even have more AC than she has right now (without cheapening out with a shield).

Quote:

Then you will see wiz/sorc builds giving up a solitary level for bard (instead of a rogue dump, and a bard dump is more powerful).
Or did you forget about bard/PMs then being able to freely use said shields, thereby making them even more powerful compared to other casters (that don't just dump a bard level to get around it).

Several characters already powergame and dump into bard/rogue, so it wouldn't change the situation. In fact, it would limit some characters, therefore diminishing the number of people that abuse those shields. And that, to me, is a good thing. The real problem is those shields null the penalty entirely, and they really shouldn't.

If that was thought through, 5% spell penalty reduc should cost 1 mythal slot, 10% cost 2 mythal slots, and 15% cost 3 mythal slots. That way it would limit these shields more.

Sorry, but I consider 7 or 8 AC for free to be ridiculously cheap.

@Yaster Galer:

The only fault that double-sided weapons have is that they require more thinking through in the actual build domain than other two weapon fighting does. The thing is, when you use these weapons you will need a lot of feats. Moreover, if you want weapon master, you also need a lot of feats.. so when you have both on your character, you shoot yourself in the foot. But it can still work just fine with the right build. I'll spend some time eventually and show you a build that works with these weapons.. (check your pm).

Quote:

@Yaster Galer:

The only fault that double-sided weapons have is that they require more thinking through in the actual build domain than other two weapon fighting does. The thing is, when you use these weapons you will need a lot of feats. Moreover, if you want weapon master, you also need a lot of feats.. so when you have both on your character, you shoot yourself in the foot. But it can still work just fine with the right build. I'll spend some time eventually and show you a build that works with these weapons.. (check your pm).

Not needed but thank you. My build works fine for what I intend to do and splashing some DCs at a later date is fine as well.

Saya is a monk. I know her build, I've seen it. Of -course- she has a lot of AC. She can't even use a shield without cancelling that out. Saying that your character doesn't need to have a shield to have AC is entirely pointless when your class is designed purely to have a lot of AC and not use a shield. It's literally one of your class feats. Other dex characters do not have that luxury.

...

Manarethan wrote:

Saya is a monk. I know her build, I've seen it. Of -course- she has a lot of AC. She can't even use a shield without cancelling that out. Saying that your character doesn't need to have a shield to have AC is entirely pointless when your class is designed purely to have a lot of AC and not use a shield. It's literally one of your class feats. Other dex characters do not have that luxury.

This.

My freaking unarmed dexer monk has 60+ ac buffed and she's not even full monk levels. And she doesn't even have +4 armor except her boots (maybe ammy, can't recall).

Saya isn't pure monk, and doesn't have a lot of wisdom. I've had dexers several time, and I never used a shield and never felt the need to. Seriously people, shields are not necessary on dexers (they are broken as hell, but they are not needed).

The fact that you're all wondering "omg what will I do if I can't use a shield" clearly shows shields makes such a difference / makes the character so much stronger for no reason that you can't imagine how you'd live without it..

I got bashed on the head several times when the staff saw Saya's background because it wasn't in line with the holy d&d bible, and I get stopped at every corner for (sometimes) insignifiant details on my quest for wings because it isn't known lore. Yet, you're all fine with shields not giving penalties to dex AC, and I'm fairly certain they normally give penalty in tabletop.

Shields on dexers is a cheesy luxury, not a necessity.

They are not necessary, but they are useful. I have a dexer that switches because he doesn't have a lot of AC all of the time (his is a special build and not optimized). So basically you want to say 'screw everyone that doesn't have an optimized build'. Because that's what it would do.

Mushidoz wrote:

The fact that you're all wondering "omg what will I do if I can't use a shield" clearly shows shields makes such a difference / makes the character so much stronger for no reason that you can't imagine how you'd live without it..

No, it doesn't. You can only say that because you are stuck on your beliefs about shields. Do you not realize how much would have to be rebalanced if shields were changed? Of course you don't, you don't think about that. And judging from your answers throughout this thread you don't care, either.

Also, for emphasis:

Mushidoz wrote:

makes the character so much stronger for no reason that you can't imagine how you'd live without it

Mushidoz wrote:

Shields on dexers is a cheesy luxury, not a necessity.

See my example above. It's makes him stronger because he's not a strong build. Again, you're opting for screwing such builds. Saya might not be a pure monk, but being a monk means she has elevated MC.

Fun fact, my 60+ AC monk has exactly the amount of Monk levels Saya has and she has zero AC problems as well. Because they are monks. It's just like when you mentioned a Ranger build to try and justify a dual-bladed weapon. Of course it's easy to do that on a Ranger, they get free dual weapon feats! Seriously, you can't compare apples to orangutans and expect people to see eye to eye with you.

Mushidoz wrote:

I got bashed on the head several times when the staff saw Saya's background because it wasn't in line with the holy d&d bible, and I get stopped at every corner for (sometimes) insignifiant details on my quest for wings because it isn't known lore.

That's lore and has nothing to do with this discussion.

Mushidoz wrote:

Yet, you're all fine with shields not giving penalties to dex AC, and I'm fairly certain they normally give penalty in tabletop.

No, they do not. Find a source that says they do.

Shields do not penalize AC gained from your dexterity modifier in table top so that line of discourse is false.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

Must have confused with 3.5 tower shields.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Armor

I still consider tower shields on dex based characters to be insanely cheap. If there were any sort of battle penalty for wearing shields, sure, but as it is, the only effect it has is your tumble is lowered slightly..........

Usually, when something is really powerful, you have to sacrifice something in exchange (whether it's a hard build-up / certain amount of class levels / -2 attack bonus and 3 feats for dual wielding, etc.). For shields? No, no sacrifice whatsoever - you gain a free +8 to your AC. That is 4 times better than Armor Skin, the EPIC feat. Go ahead and convince me that there is a real sacrifice to wear a shield. In my opinion, shield users almost -always- end up stronger than two-handed weapons and dual wields.

For mages? You normally get spell penalties!.. but nope, not here, since shields come with 100% spell penalty reduction, so you just gain +7/+8 AC for free or for 1 feat. Balance ruined.

@Nait:

Relax man, calm down. It's a discussion, I have my views, I bring points up to back my opinion up. If I didn't care about balance, I wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place, nor would I even care about reading what you write and reply to it. Saya isn't optimized either, she's a feytouched character that makes no use whatsoever of her +2 charisma bonus that screws her off one ECL for no bonus.

As to what you said about ranger and 2sided weapons - it makes sense, it is a good comparison too. The argument you guys have is 2sided weapons is inferior to regular dual fighting, always, on any build. Mine was that it serves a different purpose -and- that there are ways of making it superior. I tried making a character in local just for the sake of testing this out, and I ended up with dev crit / all 3 2weapon fighting feats and weapon master. Both dev crit and weapon masters require A LOT of feats to get, and I still had enough feats to get all weapon specialization feats / improved crit feat / and both disarms..

I'll end and conclude that 2sided weapons are simply DIFFERENT in what purpose they serve for a character compared to regular dual. The double axe / sword are initially meant for barbarians that will walk around with medium armors at most (so getting 16 dex will not cripple them). Their rage will make their dmg extremely high, their higher HP will make them survive the lack of AC, they are basically made to deal constant damage / disarm the crap out of who is in front of them as they brutally slash the hell out of them. HOWEVER, with a different build and some thinking into it, there are other ways of gaining the benefits without the barbarian route, and with great efficiency, and without having to even get dexterity (ranger lvl 9 is what is core to that "avoiding the cost" route).

If you -can- get dev crit + weapon master + all the specialization feats + all the two fighting feats on a single character and still have enough feats to pick what these kind of weapons REQUIRE (disarm / improved disarm) on a lvl 30 character, then yes, I can assume that these weapons are highly viable - just misunderstood.

MoshingChris wrote:

From what I remember when I redid the bins:

2d10 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 20/20 x2 critical ratings
2d6 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 19/20 x2 critical ratings
3d6 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 20/20 x3/x4 critical ratings

Double Weapons should really have their own tier all to themselves. I include all weapon properties when I say that. It's not even about putting them on equal footing, it's about minimizing the penalties to a level that at least leaves open the possibility they will have some use instead of being ignored altogether.

The problem has nothing to do with item powers and everything to do with the disconnect between the ambidex requirement and the items being non-finessable.

What I could see happening is a script that adds Ambidexterity automatically to your feat list if you take Weapon focus in any of the double sided weapons. To get to that point would require a two feat investment so it's not really open to abuse.

TWF and ITWF do not have dexterity requirements so it would open up those Dual Sided weapons to Strength based characters. Sure it's not the greatest fix, but then two-handed weapons in general suck and have only become less so due to Monkey Grip. . .which costs 13 DC's and may have a continual cost as you pick up more weapons.

With that said and using Two-handers as an example:

Maybe you need to invest in a Custom Feat and a request if you really want to make Dual Sided weapons awesome for your character build if the above suggestion goes into the server.

Just an idea.

Last edited by Mushidoz on Sun, Nov 17 2013, 14:10 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Or you can simply go all out strength and have 9 levels of ranger..

Or alternatively, you can also just get the required dexterity? It requires 15 dex. Assuming you start with maybe 13 or 14, that's a 1-2 dex investment. If you are either bard / arcane archer / assassin / or harper scout (the regular) you get "Great Dexterity" as an epic feat every (more or less) 3 levels. Or, if you have a dragon disciple, you will get raw stats for the requirements without even trying.

Granted your solution would work if the dms were willing to do it, but I personally think they shouldn't. These weapons are fine; they simply are misunderstood.

I also used to think these weapons sucked, but then I learned on a cep server that they were awesome when build correctly. That was made obvious to me because there were double sided scimitars there, so people had the incentive to try and think and use these weapons to the fullest.

I said it before, and I will repeat it one last time, the double-sided weapons are not bad. HOWEVER, they are not to be dealt with the same as regular dual wielding in terms of build. They are extremely specialized weapons, and they are unmatched at what they do -> they are meant to deal raw dmg all the while disarming your foes.

On a regular server, 25 ranger / 1 harper scout / 4 fighter (in epic), would net you with 7 favorite enemies (+7 dmg / +7 attack bonus) and weapon specializationS (further +6 dmg). The only difference here is that harper scout could be replaced by something else..

My heartfelt gratitude to whomever edited the title of this thread. :wink:

Yeah, I did, that typo was also getting on my nerves lol

Wasn't editing it because I thought the thread was done and over

*coughs* The fact that you need specific builds to make them not suck does, in fact, mean they do suck. Just because you can take 9 Ranger (1, actually, if you want to be accurate) doesn't mean it's the end all fix. Using xDD levels (they don't get any DEX bonuses so you'd have to start with 15 DEX or else waste precious level up ability bonuses still) to justify the imbalance between STR and DEX also doesn't help, because that's stat whoring (much like using Range is class whoring, in a way). As for using epic feats to get the DEX requirement .... that would not only be a 'waste' of the epic feats used for Great DEX (thereby making the build weaker), but also a waste of two epic feats because you cannot take Ambiedex OR ITWF until you have a DEXof 15.

So, yes, they are worthless regardless. The fix, however, would serve to lessen the imbalance between the double sided weapons and others.

Yossarin wrote:

My heartfelt gratitude to whomever edited the title of this thread. :wink:

YOU BLOODY BEAT ME TO IT

I also missed the memo somewhere, I think. Do we no longer have wonderforged weapons, and only true/sure/warforged weapons?

Yep. Wonderforged and Truestrike are gone. Kinda a let down for people who bought either, but that's why Andrew has a project log.

MoshingChris wrote:

The problem has nothing to do with item powers and everything to do with the disconnect between the ambidex requirement and the items being non-finessable.

What I could see happening is a script that adds Ambidexterity automatically to your feat list if you take Weapon focus in any of the double sided weapons. To get to that point would require a two feat investment so it's not really open to abuse.

TWF and ITWF do not have dexterity requirements so it would open up those Dual Sided weapons to Strength based characters. Sure it's not the greatest fix, but then two-handed weapons in general suck and have only become less so due to Monkey Grip. . .which costs 13 DC's and may have a continual cost as you pick up more weapons.

With that said and using Two-handers as an example:

Maybe you need to invest in a Custom Feat and a request if you really want to make Dual Sided weapons awesome for your character build if the above suggestion goes into the server.

Just an idea.

It's a better idea. It addresses the fundamental shortcoming which involves ability score splitting.

If we still happen to have those, are we supposed to trade them out? Or are they worse and it just sucks for us?

The breaks my dear, the breaks, and yes it does suck for you. Wonderforged weapons aren't entirely bad due to the damage being equal to the newer stuff and perfect mythals being available again, but Sure Strike weapons are poo poo and were poo poo vendor trash back in the day to.

Yeah, my barb had bought a surestrike and wonderforged greataxe a long time ago. Sucks he wasted the money on the former but the latter is still decent. This was just before the new tiers were released, mind you.

No worries. A lot of the ones I'm clinging to were garbage even before. WF Bastard Sword, indeed. Psh.

Feel free to throw that out in the direction of one of my PCs, haha.

Perfect Mythals are available again? Shit, I should have sold mine when people were competing for it.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Quote:

Warforged Heavy Flail: Pierce damage 2d8, Keen, Massive Crit 2d6
Warforged Scythe, 2d6 Bludgeon, Keen, 3d6 Massive Critical
Warforged Quarterstaff (keen, 2D8 piercing, 2D10 massive crits
Warforged Double Axe (2d6 piercing, Massive Criticals 3d6, Keen)
Warforged Greatsword //2D6 Piercing, Keen, 2D6 Massive Criticals
Warforged Double Axe //+2d6 piercing damage, keen, +3d6 massive criticals,
Warforged Diremace //2d8 Piercing, Keen, 2d10 Massive Critical
Warforged spear (Keen, 2D6 bludgeoning, 3D6 massive criticals)

Got a question about the warforged! How come their enchantments differ so much? I picked the above examples out of a search on 'Warforged' i did in the auction form.
The blunt warforged seems to have 2d8 extra damage instead of 2d6?

The Massive critical bonus also differ rather much? Why?
I am not really interested in debate - More of how the Team reasoned.

Greatsword - 2-12 Damage + 2-12 Extra. Highest 24. 2x Crit
Scythe 2-8 damage + 2-12 extra. Highest 20. 3x Crit
Spear 2-8 damage + 2-12 extra. Highest 20 3x Crit
Heavy flail 1-10 damage + 2-16 extra. Highest 26. 2x Crit

As i see it - The Heavy flail is actually the best weapon now to monkeygrip not Greatsword.

Scythe has 4x crit. Also taking the crit ranges into account greatsword has higher average damage than heavy flail, assuming you're not always fighting enemies with crit immunity.

Kepaaalix wrote:

Scythe has 4x crit. Also taking the crit ranges into account greatsword has higher average damage than heavy flail, assuming you're not always fighting enemies with crit immunity.

Same crit range? What do you get your numbers from?

Heavy Flail
Average Damage is 14.5

Greatsword
Average Damage is 14

Essentially the same.

My mistake, sorry, I forgot heavy flail was the only bludgeoning weapon with 19-20 range.

As a player who focuses on defense fighting epic lv monsters with ac lower then at least 50 is a gamble. It can be done but it takes real skill to do unless you have truelly godlike constitution, regeneration, and damage reduction/resistance. Even then it remains difficult. I have gotten my standard ac up to around 51... however even with that much ac the epic lv creatures still break through it every now and again. I have survived several fights only because of my high ac and i cannot imagion winning those battles without it. Further more i am a dex fighter and still need a shield, just because your a dex does not mean you will have godlike ac from the dex bonus. My dex bonus gives me only three extra ac points... that is not nearly enough on its own, i need armor and a shield even with the dex bonus to help keep me alive. Shields are absolutely necessary imho.

Exordius wrote:

As a player who focuses on defense fighting epic lv monsters with ac lower then at least 50 is a gamble. It can be done but it takes real skill to do unless you have truelly godlike constitution, regeneration, and damage reduction/resistance. Even then it remains difficult. I have gotten my standard ac up to around 51... however even with that much ac the epic lv creatures still break through it every now and again. I have survived several fights only because of my high ac and i cannot imagion winning those battles without it. Further more i am a dex fighter and still need a shield, just because your a dex does not mean you will have godlike ac from the dex bonus. My dex bonus gives me only three extra ac points... that is not nearly enough on its own, i need armor and a shield even with the dex bonus to help keep me alive. Shields are absolutely necessary imho.

What post were you answering? Your reply got me confused

He was referring to the notion that shields are OP. Mushidoz had made the argument a few times, mostly on the first page.

Less OP more absolutely mandatory. This server is not nice to people who want to go two hander or dual weild once you get to the level cap. Even divine classes get smacked pretty hard.

Mushidoz wrote:

1 ) Epic insane random event plot weapon given by a dm

Yea...this will be the object of favoritism accusations, even if it isnt true, it isnt good for server cohesion in my oppion.

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