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Uncle-Opustus
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 Posted: Mon, Apr 22 2013, 16:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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The summons are a bliss and you should be able to squeeze it in without spendthrift compromising. You can do without it, of course. About choosing between EDK and EMD, I will have to say that EDK is way more situational. Therefore, I feel it doesn't really require for the extended version as it can be extremely useful in situations where you haven't got the time to buff. The thing is that the bastard gets stuck absolutely everywhere, and that's why I never consider it worthwhile for PvM (except for the Abyss, but even there the sod can't enter the dragon's lair). Both are very good, however, and the level 9 summons manage fairly well in most places. And yus, missing out on Improved critical is forgivable.
_________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 11:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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As a former Antiworldian, I'm not the worst character builder in the world. However, there are a few classes that I just flat suck at building.
Paladins are one of them.
And I want to build a paladin. A human type Aasimar paladin, to be specific. One that's survivable in PvE, but not a total scrub in PvP either. So I've swallowed my pride and I've dragged myself in here to ask a few questions of you all.
Firstly, are Smiters even worth it on Amia? It may just be my general suckishness at building them, but in my sample builds I'm usually only able to get up to Great Smiting 4 with 28 Paladin levels (and one tumble-dump class level) and that usually leaves me with pathetic base AB (keeping in mind that my test server doesn't have the same gear that Amia does, and I'm using basic stuff from the toolset bin.) Given that damage, my Fighter/Rogue/WM halfling crits higher than that paladin smites, and she crits at least once almost every round. Am I just doing something terribly wrong here, or is there really just no point to an Amian smiter?
Secondly, is there a benefit to more paladin levels, or would feat-hoarding by dabbling in Fighter or CoT be a detriment to me somehow?
Thirdly, assuming I'm not going the Smiter route, what should my starting abilities look like? Given that Paladin is one of those nuisance classes that benefits hugely from four different ability scores, I usually only play them when I've got the option of possibly rolling more than one 16-18 in PnP games. I absolutely suck at ability score balances for this kind of class.
Halp please?
_________________
Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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Lutra
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 13:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Certainly...paladin levels are necessary for your caster level, in that case your spells cannot be dispelled that easily, also your extended divine favor would give you 5 ab instead of 4. However, the usage of Divine Champion is recommended for additional feats in in your epic levels. For a smiter paladin 23pally/6DC/1monk or rogue works well....obviously monk is more elegant and it has the "kosher UMD", meanwhile rogue can be more effective in certain ways, but it is definitely not that nice when a paladin makes sneak attack...though a lot of thing can be explained if you ask me  Honestly...I would go for human, but i case of Aasimar you may wanna go for 24 pally/4DC/1 monk and 3 great smites may be more than enough. Also...note the fact that even if your WM can make epic crits there are certain evil creatures that are immune to crits, thus this is where your smiter pally becomes super effective 
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 13:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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I'm actually leaning away from the smite route the more I look at this because it seems like a one-trick pony. So assuming I'm taking the route of Paladin/DC/Rogue, what would be the optimal level spread and starting ability scores? I'm pretty sure I can work out the feats, and gear is an entirely different beast to slay, but the spread and scores would be a huge help.
_________________
Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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slkNihilus
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 13:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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24/4/1 would be best, I think. Makes you not care about Greater Dispel, gives you +5 AB/dmg on Divine Favor, it's great.
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Baklava
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 14:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: A small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse
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I was thinking I'd see what the Underdark and Drow are like in here, so I'd try a classic slick-and-ruthless merc sort with all sorts of aces up his sleeve (in combat and out of it). Was thinking a double deving crit (longbow and halberd) fighter/bard/AA build. The halberd would be there for sheer badassery.
For stats, I came up with
STR 18 (+7 through leveling)
DEX 14+2
CON 12-2
INT 11+2
WIS 9
CHA 8+2
I'd open up with Bard, then go 7 Fighter, 12 AA pre-epic (that'd be 7 feats + 4 fighter bonus ones), taking Weapon Focuses, Improved Crits, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Called Shot, KD, IKD and Point Blank.
Moving into epic, 1 Fighter, 6 AA and 1 Bard (3 feats, 1 fighter bonus and 2 AA bonus ones) would wrap up the deal; picking up the EWFs, Overwhelming crits and Devastating crits.
Now, I modified this from an ancient build I dug up, the main difference being the loss of a pre-epic fighter bonus feat (which would probably be Rapid Shot) and the level 30 one, for which Armorskin was suggested. I'm wondering if it's viable and if there's anything you experienced folks would tweak.
_________________
And the forests will echo with laughter
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Tyris
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 15:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Mar 2013
Location: Amana, IA USA
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Can only take 10 pre-epic AA, if I read your post correctly.
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Baklava
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 15:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: A small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse
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Oh crap. Completely forgot. So I'd have to go 1 bard, 9 fighter, 10 AA pre-epic and then 1 bard, 4 AA and 3 fighter post-epic?
I really hoped to squeeze in that AA18 somehow, though.
_________________
And the forests will echo with laughter
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 16:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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I thought we had made a server rule that drow could no longer be AA?
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Jes
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 16:30 PM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole
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Uh... No. It was stated explicitly that drow AA's simply get their abilities from a different deity on Amia. Selvetarm, I think.  _________________ Login: The Copper Queen
Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym
Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant
Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as:
[DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 16:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yep.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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GreatPigeon
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 16:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK
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My bad bros.
_________________ The Peacock wrote: [GreatPigeon] is better than me. Uncle-Opustus wrote: Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
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Sphinx
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 16:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
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You can learn to become an Arcane Archer, as long as you're a knife-ear of sorts and have a teacher. You don't need "divine mojo" from either Selvertam or Solonor Thelandira, it's an arcane art. I thought I'd point that out. I'm saying this as someone with a DM approved character with AA levels, who certainly doesn't get any love from either deity at all!
To prevent derailing this topic any further, if someone wants to argue against what I just said or is just plain curious, my PM box is open.
_________________
Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 17:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Smiter paladins aren't a one-trick pony, especially when you've got 10 Divine Champion levels backing it up.
You're good all day long, especially when running extended Divine Favor. You have the best saves in the game, you have amazing AC (you maximize Dodge without even needing Haste to do so), you do more damage than strength builds typically do (since nothing resists Divine damage), and you lay down some serious hurt in short bursts - even against non-evil.
And if it's evil it may as well assume the position.
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 17:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Sphinx wrote: You can learn to become an Arcane Archer, as long as you're a knife-ear of sorts and have a teacher. You don't need "divine mojo" from either Selvertam or Solonor Thelandira, it's an arcane art. I thought I'd point that out. I'm saying this as someone with a DM approved character with AA levels, who certainly doesn't get any love from either deity at all!
To prevent derailing this topic any further, if someone wants to argue against what I just said or is just plain curious, my PM box is open. Arcane Archers aren't divine at all, no. But the original gift of Arcane Archery was said to be gift to the Quessir from the Seldarine. Obviously, this doesn't work for drow, hence why Selvetarm stole it from the Seldarine and gave it to evil drow instead. Not arguin', clarifying what is accepted canon lore for Amia. And yeah, smiters are pretty ridiculous. _________________  "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 17:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Question:
Arcane Archer with Dev Crit. Good idea or bad idea? They won't have ungodly AB, but I'm assuming the lack of DEX will be made up by the AA bonus mhm? The consideration was Bard 6/DD 9/AA 15 or something.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Kepaaalix
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: R'lyeh
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Righteous Anger wrote: you have amazing AC (you maximize Dodge without even needing Haste to do so) Care to elaborate? I can only think of +5 boots and around +10 from divine shield. Unless you happen to have the ridiculous amount of 40 CHA, of course.
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Naivatkal wrote: Question:
Arcane Archer with Dev Crit. Good idea or bad idea? They won't have ungodly AB, but I'm assuming the lack of DEX will be made up by the AA bonus mhm? The consideration was Bard 6/DD 9/AA 15 or something. It's not a good idea or bad idea, really. It works and you still have a decent AB. For a Smiter paladin, you need 26 base charisma pretty much, buffed to 38 which is a +14 bonus. +14 Divine Shield, +4 Haste... you're already 2 away from the dodge cap. +14 Divine Shield, +5 Boots, +1 Mage Armor... there's a +20 right there. _________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Neat, I was considering it but wasn't sure. Figured the AB would be awesome enough to uphold the build. I just need to run some numbers and compare it with my other AA builds. Thanks!
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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QPR
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway
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The problems with a dev crit archer is that 1) there are no bows giving you enough mighty bonus to capitalize on your full strength mod, 2) you gimp your dex and thus hurt the AA's ridiculously high AB which is its main asset, and 3) Dev crit now does KD, and you suffer a -4 penalty vs prone foes as an archer. This is probably offset by the blindness effect though. And the fact that he can't do anything.
_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II
Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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PaladinOfSune wrote: Naivatkal wrote: Question:
Arcane Archer with Dev Crit. Good idea or bad idea? They won't have ungodly AB, but I'm assuming the lack of DEX will be made up by the AA bonus mhm? The consideration was Bard 6/DD 9/AA 15 or something. It's not a good idea or bad idea, really. It works and you still have a decent AB. For a Smiter paladin, you need 26 base charisma pretty much, buffed to 38 which is a +14 bonus. +14 Divine Shield, +4 Haste... you're already 2 away from the dodge cap. +14 Divine Shield, +5 Boots, +1 Mage Armor... there's a +20 right there. Smite paladins are also insane bosshunters! albeit they rarely get to survive up TO the boss xD
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Yeah, and I think the highest AB possible is around 45. I calc'ed it as (based on 5 Bard/5 RDD/10 AA pre-epic then 4 RDD/5 AA/1 Bard epic with 13 DEX):
21 base + 1 DEX + 6 DEX gear + 4 bow + 3 WF/EWF + 8 AA enchance = 43
Bless/Aid/Divine Might help, but that's still only 46 and 47 with a +5 bow (if they exist), so I'm not too keen on that number. Plus, you have to shove in Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave which are more or less useless to a ranged attacker. Granted you can use them if you have to melee but still.
I was going for a hard-hitting archer but a traditional DEXer AA is sounding much more practical. Besides, the Mighty bows can capitalize on the bonuses from the DD blood abilities.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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PaladinOfSune
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 18:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: England, UK
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Yeah, I was really more speaking for the Bard/Fighter/AA version. It's quite a bit better, imo. More damage, more AB, more feats.
_________________ "Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 19:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Very_Svensk wrote: Smite paladins are also insane bosshunters! albeit they rarely get to survive up TO the boss xD ... Because of their low saves, low AC, low HP, low AB, and low damage, right? owait, they have awesome in all of that. I'm personally a big fan of Charisma paladins. I think it's the way to go if you're building a Paladin, period.
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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Lutra
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 21:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Str based pallies are cool too.....they hit:P
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Pony
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Posted: Wed, Apr 24 2013, 22:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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You can make very good builds out of both. Strength based paladins are more versatile, where as smiter paladins are simply more short term situation focused. As soon as you are through with those three beautiful smites, which at times do miss, you only have a bit higher saves (which are no problem for any paladin) and a bit higher ac. However you lack the ab and damage potential that a strength focused paladin has for every attack. In a long fight your overall damage / hit ratio is far smaller and against monsters or characters that are not evil you are at a great disadvantage in comparison to the strength based paladin. As a smiter you reserve 3 flashy attacks (1standard feat, around 5+ epic feats to make the investment useful) for the boss monster or for the evil character that others will have the hardest time taking down (like an evil shifter or palemaster).
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Jes
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Posted: Thu, Apr 25 2013, 8:22 AM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole
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Naivatkal wrote: Question:
Arcane Archer with Dev Crit. Good idea or bad idea? They won't have ungodly AB, but I'm assuming the lack of DEX will be made up by the AA bonus mhm? The consideration was Bard 6/DD 9/AA 15 or something. This was almost exactly Zelly's initial build (Bard 5/DD 10/AA 15) and it was hell-a fun! So the stats aren't perfect in every way, but as a Wood Elf Copper Dragon Disciple, it turned out fantastic! _________________ Login: The Copper Queen
Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym
Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant
Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as:
[DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Thu, Apr 25 2013, 17:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2010
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Haha, I figured that. I think Zelly is the only DD/AA I know of
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Jes
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Posted: Thu, Apr 25 2013, 18:37 PM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: Camriiole
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She doesn't have the Dev Crit: Bow thing going for her anymore, but it was a lot of fun. I encourage it! _________________ Login: The Copper Queen
Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym
Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant
Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as:
[DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Thu, Apr 25 2013, 23:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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So I've been playing around with both types, and I'm thinking I like the strength-based paladin more, simply because of the consistency. Building for a Smiter, I was able to get up to Great Smiting 6, which yielded around 250 damage smites that missed more often than I'd have liked, because my AB topped off at around 43. Meanwhile, the strength-based Smiter still got around 51 AC when using Divine Shield (using semi-optimized gear) and had 43 unbuffed AC, and 54 when buffed. Comparing the two, I can see the benefit of using a Smiter, but it still just seems like a one-trick pony. You have three really heavy hits (that sometimes don't) and after that, it's a lot of standing around and hoping you roll a few 20's before the other guy kills you. 54 AC is nothing to scoff at, but I can still get 51 as a non-smiter assuming I can get the +12 to my Charisma.
Speaking of which.
Both of these builds were tested using semi-optimized gear under the assumption that, with or without the help of potions, I would be able to reach a bonus 12 to Strength and 10 to Charisma. I don't know the Amia gear list well enough for this type of character to be sure about that, so I thought I'd poll the forum to make sure I wasn't just kidding myself.
Furthermore, for the Strength-based paladin, I'm starting with a base score list of 16 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, and 14 Cha. The 12 Wis and 14 Cha get bumped up to 14 and 16 respectively, as I'm using the Aasimar subrace. The idea is that while 18 Strength would be nice, one more point in it won't help as much as the bonus skill points to allow me to dump into both Tumble and UMD, as well as the Charisma to get an extra round or two on my divine might and shield abilities.
My feats are:
Armor Skin
Blind Fight
Divine Might / Divine Shield
Epic Prowess
Epic Toughness 1
WF/EWF/IC Longsword
Extra Turning
Great Strength 1
Knockdown
Power Attack
I'm guessing everything can be improved by gear that isn't the barebones partially-optimized placeholder set I created, but is there anything I can be doing better to make this a better build? I feel like it's still not quite what it could be.
_________________
Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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Cerpin Taxt
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Posted: Fri, Apr 26 2013, 0:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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I don't know what classes you are using on your paladin but you should be able to get 47 (50 with 30 tumble) AC unbuffed with only +4 gear:
10 base + 1 dex + 8+4 full plate + 3+4 shield + 4 amulet + 4 cape + 4 boots + 3 (or 6) tumble + 2 armor skin = 47 (50).
If I had to guess, you didn't cross class tumble and you have less than 12 dex in your build.
Buffed you should have 65 (68) AC.
14 AC from divine shield.
4 AC from haste. (Just remember you are actually at 22 dodge AC with haste up so you only get 2 from haste.)
You shouldn't have a problem hitting things with smite either.
25 bab + 3+6 strength + 1+2 weapon focuses + 4 weapon (change this to +5 if buffed) = 41 ab unbuffed.
From your spells you should be able to get that ab up to 48.
Then when smiting you should add another 14 on top of that, your smite ab should be 62, which with a d20 roll will mean you have 64 to 82 on your attack roll, which will hit anything on this server that doesn't have epic dodge.
As for concerns about gear, you only need +9 strength and +6 charisma on your gear.
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Fri, Apr 26 2013, 3:29 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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I'm using a +5 Full Plate, a +5 Tower Shield, +5 Dodge boots, a +4 Cloak and 30 Tumble. My unbuffed AC is 42. I'm using a Paladin 24/CoT 4/Rogue 1 build. Clearly I'm missing something if I'm supposed to be getting that kind of AC. Keeping in mind that I have a -1 dex because I wanted more Con and Int. On my Charisma paladin, the AC is only marginally better.
I'm also testing the build against a level 35 fighter monster I designed to have 55 AC. So either I'm rolling a lot of ones, or I've screwed something up terribly, because even with my buffed AB (which was 43, it was around 35 unbuffed so I don't know how you're getting 41 unbuffed) I was missing one to all of my smites against one target. (And yes, it's evil aligned.)
Edit: I also don't have Epic Weapon Focus on the Charisma build because I used all of my Epic feats on Great Smiting.
_________________
Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Fri, Apr 26 2013, 4:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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RuffTuff wrote: I'm using a +5 Full Plate, a +5 Tower Shield, +5 Dodge boots, a +4 Cloak and 30 Tumble. My unbuffed AC is 42. I'm using a Paladin 24/CoT 4/Rogue 1 build. Clearly I'm missing something if I'm supposed to be getting that kind of AC. Keeping in mind that I have a -1 dex because I wanted more Con and Int. On my Charisma paladin, the AC is only marginally better.
I'm also testing the build against a level 35 fighter monster I designed to have 55 AC. So either I'm rolling a lot of ones, or I've screwed something up terribly, because even with my buffed AB (which was 43, it was around 35 unbuffed so I don't know how you're getting 41 unbuffed) I was missing one to all of my smites against one target. (And yes, it's evil aligned.)
Edit: I also don't have Epic Weapon Focus on the Charisma build because I used all of my Epic feats on Great Smiting. Well, do you have an amulet of natural armor? I don't see that listed there. That could be +4 AC right there. 46. For AB, while you start with a base 14 STR, you still want to gear that up as high as possible, so you can get the +12 bonus, 26 STR. That will help AB quite a lot. (Also, you better have divine shield and divine might!!) Other thing, I would definitely NOT put all your epic feats into great smite. Epic weapon focus and armor skin, that's +2 AB and +2 AC right there, so with the amulet, 48 AC. Add divine shield and that's 62. Getting 196 bonus damage on a smite sure sounds appealing, but it's not worth gimping every other aspect of your build. 140 is enough. Also, if you're an Aasimar, I'd go 26/2/1 Pal/CoT/Tumbledump rather than 24/4/2, 26 gets you better spell durations and more dispel resistance vs Mords. P.S. Cat's grace potion and/or +3 dex boots can help you get back some of your lost dex AC. _________________ I play: 
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Fri, Apr 26 2013, 5:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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RuffTuff wrote: I'm using a +5 Full Plate, a +5 Tower Shield, +5 Dodge boots, a +4 Cloak and 30 Tumble. My unbuffed AC is 42. I'm using a Paladin 24/CoT 4/Rogue 1 build. Clearly I'm missing something if I'm supposed to be getting that kind of AC. Keeping in mind that I have a -1 dex because I wanted more Con and Int. On my Charisma paladin, the AC is only marginally better.
I'm also testing the build against a level 35 fighter monster I designed to have 55 AC. So either I'm rolling a lot of ones, or I've screwed something up terribly, because even with my buffed AB (which was 43, it was around 35 unbuffed so I don't know how you're getting 41 unbuffed) I was missing one to all of my smites against one target. (And yes, it's evil aligned.)
Edit: I also don't have Epic Weapon Focus on the Charisma build because I used all of my Epic feats on Great Smiting. 10 base - 1 dex + 13 armor + 8 shield + 5 boots + 4 cloak + 6 tumble = 45 AC. You're doing something wrong. 30 Tumble must be ranks, not from items. Armor Skin is an important feat. You also need a +4 AC Amulet.
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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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RuffTuff
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Posted: Fri, Apr 26 2013, 6:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: Clock Town
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Righteous Anger wrote: RuffTuff wrote: I'm using a +5 Full Plate, a +5 Tower Shield, +5 Dodge boots, a +4 Cloak and 30 Tumble. My unbuffed AC is 42. I'm using a Paladin 24/CoT 4/Rogue 1 build. Clearly I'm missing something if I'm supposed to be getting that kind of AC. Keeping in mind that I have a -1 dex because I wanted more Con and Int. On my Charisma paladin, the AC is only marginally better.
I'm also testing the build against a level 35 fighter monster I designed to have 55 AC. So either I'm rolling a lot of ones, or I've screwed something up terribly, because even with my buffed AB (which was 43, it was around 35 unbuffed so I don't know how you're getting 41 unbuffed) I was missing one to all of my smites against one target. (And yes, it's evil aligned.)
Edit: I also don't have Epic Weapon Focus on the Charisma build because I used all of my Epic feats on Great Smiting. 10 base - 1 dex + 13 armor + 8 shield + 5 boots + 4 cloak + 6 tumble = 45 AC. You're doing something wrong. 30 Tumble must be ranks, not from items. Armor Skin is an important feat. You also need a +4 AC Amulet. All my tumble points are ranks, that's the whole point of the Rogue level. I have Armor Skin. I'm missing the amulet. That makes sense.
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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster
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Arcadence
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 0:27 AM |
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Joined: 09 May 2010
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Out of sheer curiosity, if I'm strapped for skill points on a non-strength build and don't really have the room for ESF: Discipline, is it going to matter if I have any Discipline to speak of in the long run? I can imagine even with ESF I'm going to be running a high risk of simply falling over to what gets thrown at me if it hits.
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Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
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slkNihilus
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 0:30 AM |
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Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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If your AC is higher than the discipline score you could've gotten (which isn't the case with most STR builds), then it's more or less optional. Otherwise, it's good to get at least as many ranks as you can and gear yourself to get at least 55-60 disc in the end.
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 5:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Is IKD useful enough on a Melee Bard to sacrifice Blind Fight or Extend Spell for it?
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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O'Raghailligh
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 5:44 AM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Location: NZ
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Lutra
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 8:36 AM |
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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IKD for a bard? Geez....as a bard you have far better options than IKD
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 11:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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Actually, i would happily drop Extend Spell for IKD, if you're going for way above 20 levels of Bard. The reason is simple. You can't extend Mass Haste, you're not really a party buffer (your song is the best thing you're giving people anyway), and you have enough spells for yourself - Hastes (normal and Stilled) to make you lightning fast for at least 15 minutes, as for Imp Invis and GMW you still can spare a few to your comrades.
So given that, think of what you prefer - not having to rest every 20+ minutes but every 50 minutes, OR knocking down everything except the most dedicated foes, after Cursing them for -15 Discipline?
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Mark it zero!
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Sphinx
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 13:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
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Improved Knockdown is never worth it on a feat starved bard build. Or any other build really, for that matter unless you're a Fighter or DC and can clearly afford it. Extend Spell is much more useful, hands down. You just can't overlook extended Haste & War Cries.
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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple
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Aeqvinox
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Posted: Mon, Apr 29 2013, 15:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Location: Underdark
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It's a matter of preference.
I took Still Spell and Called Shot to satisfy my metamagic and combat mode needs.
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Mark it zero!
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Bobo_Underhill
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Posted: Tue, Apr 30 2013, 9:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Location: The Drone Star State
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IKD works very well on a STR or Fighter-bard. Still, it's not worth Extend Spell or Blindfight. It's just cream on top and can be easily subbed for something else. I had adequate feats for it, since I wasn't going Dev.
_________________
Andrew Fryar: Cordor's Folk Hero
Bobrin: Eccentric Avenging Executioner
Lyle Torrowfire: Retired badass
Marigold Cobcruncher: Perceptive Priestess
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Sphinx
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Posted: Tue, Apr 30 2013, 9:54 AM |
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011
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The difference between regular and improved knockdown is very negligible, is all I'm saying. A difference of 4 where discipline rolls are concerned basically means nothing. That is, unless you keep fighting large-sized creatures like giants! I swear by saving throw feats, so it's an easy choice for me to drop IKD in favor of something else.
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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple
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PuttheLime
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Posted: Wed, May 01 2013, 2:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 Mar 2013
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Question for those shifter experts..
In order to get 4 attacks per round, do you need to have 6 Divine Champion levels, or 8?
Also, quick poll on dragon shape.. Is it worth giving up for armor skin and epic prowess?
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Gobbledygook
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Posted: Wed, May 01 2013, 2:56 AM |
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Joined: 18 Sep 2011
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Don't bother with Dragonshape. It's so huge, and misses out on the Shifter AC scaling. Essentially you'll find for -any- situation, another shape will be more appropriate. If you give up Dragonshape, you can easily get all of the other epic shapes, which are far more useful, or those other feats you mentioned instead.
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Just lurking about!
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Wed, May 01 2013, 3:47 AM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PuttheLime wrote: Question for those shifter experts..
In order to get 4 attacks per round, do you need to have 6 Divine Champion levels, or 8?
Also, quick poll on dragon shape.. Is it worth giving up for armor skin and epic prowess? In order to get 4 APR on a shifter, you'll need to limit yourself to 8 shifter levels pre-epic. You need 5 druid levels to unlock the class, which loses 2 BAB off max, 9 shifter loses 3 BAB off max, which prevents you from getting the fourth attack. So, you could do something like: 5/8/7 Druid/Shifter/FullBABClass, or 8/8/4 Druid/Shifter/FullBABClass. Up to you what you think is better. _________________ I play:
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Cerpin Taxt
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Posted: Wed, May 01 2013, 4:05 AM |
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Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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The1Kobra wrote: PuttheLime wrote: Question for those shifter experts..
In order to get 4 attacks per round, do you need to have 6 Divine Champion levels, or 8?
Also, quick poll on dragon shape.. Is it worth giving up for armor skin and epic prowess? In order to get 4 APR on a shifter, you'll need to limit yourself to 8 shifter levels pre-epic. You need 5 druid levels to unlock the class, which loses 2 BAB off max, 9 shifter loses 3 BAB off max, which prevents you from getting the fourth attack. So, you could do something like: 5/8/7 Druid/Shifter/FullBABClass, or 8/8/4 Druid/Shifter/FullBABClass. Up to you what you think is better. Or you can go monk and get bonus attacks while unarmed.
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Righteous Anger
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Posted: Wed, May 01 2013, 6:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Location: South Carolina, USA
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I'm being forced to choose between Epic Prowess and Improved Critical on my bard. He uses a battleaxe. Thoughts?
_________________
"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."
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