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A Majestic Dwarf
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 Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 15:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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Hello,
I play a vaguely good aligned Eilistrean Rogue who at times has used poisoned arrows, mostly due to his interpretation of - "Repay violence with swift violence so that those who cause it are quickly dealt with" - as letting him use poison for it could mean that any who cause violence are more swiftly dealt with. This however... is entirely personal justification. I have recently got thinking, is using poison wrong?
I can certainly see that poison use is more of an evil thing than a good thing, and would be frowned upon or illegal in many civilised societies, but does that make it morally wrong? Will using poison adversely affect ones alignment for being an "Evil Act" or is it entirely subjective as to whether you are using it for a noble goal?
I will not bore you with my own personal opinions and bias, as it won't carry any weight, so I will throw it open to everyone else.
_________________
Avatar Picture from Brinawilliamson.com
Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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Tomato Sword
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 15:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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"Be always kind, save in battle with evil." Eilistraeeans aren't paladins. There are of course some moral guidelines in fighting that are basic common sense like, Don't Torture People. But aside from that, it's a fairly vicious dogma. "Repay violence with swift violence, so that the fewest may be hurt and danger fast removed from the land." If using poison gets rid of some evil overlord and save innocents, I personally don't know if any Eilistraeeans would have a problem with it. Causing unnecessary pain and suffering is, I think, a fairly evil thing to do on the spectrum, but I don't necessarily think use of poison falls under that. I mean. You're not poisoning them. Letting them suffer for 3 tendays. And then assassinating them. That's fairly evil. But if you're weakening them with poison as you're killing them. Swiftly. Then... Well, they'll be dead faster, right? XD But that's my take on it anyhow! xD It probably is wrong on many levels...
Last edited by Tomato Sword on Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Pony
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 15:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 May 2005
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Depends on poison and on context. (Aka DM)
- If you use an abyssal poison that was made from angel tears and puppy blood, and it deteriorates the intestines over a time of ten unspeakably painful minutes, I'd go with evil.
- If you use a simple very quick and not painful poison to kill an evil matron mother, it is not very heroic, and perhaps not the best thing to boast about, but I doubt it would be evil.
But if you ask Robert about it, you are a pussy. "I've heard it said that poison is a woman's weapon." - Eddard Stark >.>
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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I would say poison is evil, its a assassins weapon ment to weaken and kill an opponent in ways that breakes rules of conduct in honourable battle, but such ideals is not something all share, least of all drow culture, that being said the god of poisons is very evil and in my book..if the god of a item is evil, the item is evil *shrugs*, but its not a major evil, its a minor evil and a needed one for some, its not like a paladin will smite you for it, only frown a tad at it. Why do you care anyway..your char is basically evil anyway 
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:28 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Goodies are able to use things called Ravages and Afflictions to get around the whole "poisons are always bad, mkay." Mechanically, I'd just say use them and call it something else. Even then, poison can be justified in some cases, same way attacks from the rear or sneak assaults can be a necessity.
Though it always depends on the character, the situation, and possibly their patron, I'd think it could be brought down to intent and the type of poison itself. Like it was said before, if it's made out of puppy blood and something else that spits in the face of good, it wouldn't really matter what it is, it's evil by default, even if you use it for good. If you use the poison to cheat in what would otherwise be fine as a fair fight or to cause nothing but pain, then of course it would be evil. But if there is simply no other way to take out your enemy, or going about it another way would result in a great loss at your expense, then it may not be accepted, but it could be justified. And then, likely the quicker and less painful the better.
_________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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if a good devine caster uses an affliction in a offensive manner on purpose..then im pretty sure they will fall..afflictions are diseases.. it is most defiantly a evil act..poisons can be argued for and against..disease ..i dont really think you can argue for them not being evil in weapon form..
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Ravenovf
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia (in Canada)
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Poison being evil system wise is an archaic throw back to 2nd Edition and tied strongly to traditional western cultural ideals. Is a rattlesnake evil because it has venom? A scorpion? A platypus? Poison isn't inherently any more evil then any other weapon (Save for perhaps ones vile in nature), no different from using alchemical bombs or swords that drip acid. Assassins are adept in poison use not because its evil but because of their extensive use of it in their craft.
As for Drow, poison is culturally pervasive and in line with the standard drow concept that victory is everything and Eilistraees dogma is pretty clear that when it comes to evil you are not just expected to be merciless but its demanded in battle. What is defined as battle and to some extent a lack of mercy can vary to some degree but there is nothing dogmatic or alignment based restricting the use of poison.
You can take the Eilistraeen out of the underdark but not the Underdark out of the Eilistraeen so to speak.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Ravenovf wrote: Poison being evil system wise is an archaic throw back to 2nd Edition and tied strongly to traditional western cultural ideals. Is a rattlesnake evil because it has venom? A scorpion? A platypus?. Poison isn't inherently any more evil then any other weapon (Save for perhaps ones vile in nature), no different from using alchemical bombs or swords that drip acid. Assassins are adept in poison use not because its evil but because of their extensive use of it in their craft.
As for Drow, poison is culturally pervasive and in line with the standard drow concept that victory is everything and Eilistraees dogma is pretty clear that when it comes to evil you are not just expected to be merciless but its demanded in battle. What is defined as battle and to some extent a lack of mercy can vary to some degree but there is nothing dogmatic or alignment based restricting the use of poison.
You can take the Eilistraeen out of the underdark but not the Underdark out of the Eilistraeen so to speak. some poisons are torturous and such is evil, some poisons are like having your insides burning, using it purposefully to disable a opponent I would call very evil, as all torture is, even if it is in the heat of combat. And no animals are not evil because they use poison, using them as a example is like saying its not bad to drown people in lava because a volcano isnt evil..they are blameless of actions as they have no choise, and thus it is not comparable to draw a line between where the poison come from and by whom it is used.
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Ravenovf
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia (in Canada)
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Kraniumbrud wrote: Ravenovf wrote: Poison being evil system wise is an archaic throw back to 2nd Edition and tied strongly to traditional western cultural ideals. Is a rattlesnake evil because it has venom? A scorpion? A platypus?. Poison isn't inherently any more evil then any other weapon (Save for perhaps ones vile in nature), no different from using alchemical bombs or swords that drip acid. Assassins are adept in poison use not because its evil but because of their extensive use of it in their craft.
As for Drow, poison is culturally pervasive and in line with the standard drow concept that victory is everything and Eilistraees dogma is pretty clear that when it comes to evil you are not just expected to be merciless but its demanded in battle. What is defined as battle and to some extent a lack of mercy can vary to some degree but there is nothing dogmatic or alignment based restricting the use of poison.
You can take the Eilistraeen out of the underdark but not the Underdark out of the Eilistraeen so to speak. some poisons are torturous and such is evil, some poisons are like having your insides burning, using it purposefully to disable a opponent I would call very evil, as all torture is, even if it is in the heat of combat. And no animals are not evil because they use poison, using them as a example is like saying its not bad to drown people in lava because a volcano isnt evil..they are blameless of actions as they have no choise, and thus it is not comparable to draw a line between where the poison come from and by whom it is used. I disagree, entirely because it is a prime example of the simple fact that the weapon is neither good nor evil (except in the case of intelligent aligned weapons,or spells with evil descriptor) it is the intent behind it. Some natives peoples of various parts of the world use poison on their darts or arrows when hunting is that evil? hardly. Is a tool no more intrinsically good or evil then a knife or a shovel. Good and evil is about the intent not the tool (with a few rare exceptions). In the end its entirely a matter of personal opinion and or cultural views that determine if someone see's poison as any more evil a tool then a sword, fire as any more evil then frost, or night more evil then day. Ultimately however they are neither.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Ravenovf wrote: Kraniumbrud wrote: Ravenovf wrote: Poison being evil system wise is an archaic throw back to 2nd Edition and tied strongly to traditional western cultural ideals. Is a rattlesnake evil because it has venom? A scorpion? A platypus?. Poison isn't inherently any more evil then any other weapon (Save for perhaps ones vile in nature), no different from using alchemical bombs or swords that drip acid. Assassins are adept in poison use not because its evil but because of their extensive use of it in their craft.
As for Drow, poison is culturally pervasive and in line with the standard drow concept that victory is everything and Eilistraees dogma is pretty clear that when it comes to evil you are not just expected to be merciless but its demanded in battle. What is defined as battle and to some extent a lack of mercy can vary to some degree but there is nothing dogmatic or alignment based restricting the use of poison.
You can take the Eilistraeen out of the underdark but not the Underdark out of the Eilistraeen so to speak. some poisons are torturous and such is evil, some poisons are like having your insides burning, using it purposefully to disable a opponent I would call very evil, as all torture is, even if it is in the heat of combat. And no animals are not evil because they use poison, using them as a example is like saying its not bad to drown people in lava because a volcano isnt evil..they are blameless of actions as they have no choise, and thus it is not comparable to draw a line between where the poison come from and by whom it is used. I disagree, entirely because it is a prime example of the simple fact that the weapon is neither good nor evil (except in the case of intelligent aligned weapons,or spells with evil descriptor) it is the intent behind it. Some natives peoples of various parts of the world use poison on their darts or arrows when hunting is that evil? hardly. Is a tool no more intrinsically good or evil then a knife or a shovel. Good and evil is about the intent not the tool (with a few rare exceptions). In the end its entirely a matter of personal opinion and or cultural views that determine if someone see's poison as any more evil a tool then a sword, fire as any more evil then frost, or night more evil then day. Ultimately however they are neither. And in the culture of faerun poisons is the portfolio of a extremely dark god *Shrugs* its a logical fallacy on your side, sorry to say it, but "snakes has and uses poisons, Snakes are not inherently evil, scorpions has and uses poisons and arnt inherently evil either... thus using poisons are not inherently evil either" cum hoc ergo propter hoc. You cant use that as arguement. Causing someone extreme amounts of pain with a poison is evil, there uses for a poison of such torturous standards, that is not evil, such as an antidote, I would remind you that this was about the usage of poisons not the nature of poisons. we are only discussing intent here, as I said "some poisons are torturous and such is evil" because causing immense amount of pain is evil.
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Grymia
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Would Knock out Gas be considered a poison?
Would something to paralyze an enemy to prevent escape be a poison? Would they be evil?
Also, account for Ravages/Afflictions. If the DMs say they don't exist mind, they don't and that's that but.. otherwise...
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:34 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Just to throw it into the mix, Couatls, Lawful Good outsiders, have natural poison in their bite. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Dark Immolation wrote: Just to throw it into the mix, Couatls, Lawful Good outsiders, have natural poison in their bite. Its not an arguement, especially since, as you say it is natural. seríusly.."cum hoc ergo propter hoc"
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Grymia wrote: Would Knock out Gas be considered a poison?
Would something to paralyze an enemy to prevent escape be a poison? Would they be evil?
Also, account for Ravages/Afflictions. If the DMs say they don't exist mind, they don't and that's that but.. otherwise... I said tortorous evils...i made that clear alot of times, and afflictions is just another word for diseases i believe
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:42 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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... Who said I was trying to argue anything?
But if I was, I would ask why would that allow you to dismiss it completely? And if you want to get technical, the ad hoc goes either way on that. Poison is naturally evil, therefore things that have/use poison are evil. Or as you apparently wish to say I intent to argue, a good creature has poison, therefore it cannot be evil.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:44 PM |
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DM
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Malandria uses poison. And she isn't evil. It's part of nature. *shrugs*
_________________  
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Dark Immolation wrote: ... Who said I was trying to argue anything?
But if I was, I would ask why would that allow you to dismiss it completely? And if you want to get technical, the ad hoc goes either way on that. Poison is naturally evil, therefore things that have/use poison are evil. Or as you apparently wish to say I intent to argue, a good creature has poison, therefore it cannot be evil. actually i never said that, I said Causing a shitload of pain with a torturous poison on purpose is naturally evil because causing pain is evil, unlike you i dont use two unrelated things to build an arguement, thus it isnt a logical fallacy.
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote: Malandria uses poison. And she isn't evil. It's part of nature. *shrugs* If you tortured someone using tortoruos poisons it would be evil *Shrugs* you are restricted by morality even as a druid...it is sorta a logical fallacy again, but then again it is not cause malandria is a embodiment of nature and as such she isnt bound by laws of morality but rather what the hell nature feels like...i would argue that in mal's case she could argue for even more leniency towards using the harsher poisons
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:55 PM |
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DM
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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IMHO you are seeing this far too extreme black and white. It always depends on the circumstances as a whole.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote: IMHO you are seeing this far too extreme black and white. It always depends on the circumstances as a whole. Oh in the case of all poisons it is very not black and white..however i said -Torturous- posions, we are talking extreremely painfull poisons or poisons that causes harm beyond is required to get to the objective of poisonuse..if you seek to disable, it is not nessesary to use a poison that attacks nerves in a flood of pain beyond reasoning or causes the person to halusinate insane nightmares that sends the person directly to insanity....as i said.. in the case of torturous poisons ..it is evil
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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A Majestic Dwarf
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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Many natural venoms could be described as "Torturous poisons", for example some snake venoms can cause a LOT of pain, and if they aren't treated, slow torturous deaths. Yet it has been established that they are not evil and use their poisons for hunting and self defense.
_________________
Avatar Picture from Brinawilliamson.com
Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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Tomato Sword
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Well, regardless, I think you have a pretty broad answer to base your own conclusion from now for what's appropriate for Niss, the Eilistraeean. Although if people want to continue this debate, it's certainly not my place to stop it.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Aurora wrote: Many natural venoms could be described as "Torturous poisons", for example some snake venoms can cause a LOT of pain, and if they aren't treated, slow torturous deaths. Yet it has been established that they are not evil and use their poisons for hunting and self defense. where has it been established? if you cause a immense amount of pain to a person, when a little pain would do, in any other situation, it is considered evil, please explain to me why it isnt the case with poison?
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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A Majestic Dwarf
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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Tomato Sword wrote: Well, regardless, I think you have a pretty broad answer to base your own conclusion from now for what's appropriate for Niss, the Eilistraeean. Although if people want to continue this debate, it's certainly not my place to stop it. Yep, though I will keep an eye out for if a DM wishes to weigh in and say something surprising but I have enough information for an idea of what is appropriate and it was pretty much what I had been doing anyway. Kraniumbrud wrote: Aurora wrote: Many natural venoms could be described as "Torturous poisons", for example some snake venoms can cause a LOT of pain, and if they aren't treated, slow torturous deaths. Yet it has been established that they are not evil and use their poisons for hunting and self defense. where has it been established? if you cause a immense amount of pain to a person, when a little pain would do, in any other situation, it is considered evil, please explain to me why it isnt the case with poison? Snakes are animals and therefore are always neutral. So sayeth the monster Manual 3rd Edition, and each one before and after (I checked for normal snakes). That is where it has been established that snakes are not evil. I was simply illustrating the point that many snake poisons seem to be what you would describe as "Torturous poisons"
_________________
Avatar Picture from Brinawilliamson.com
Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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ChrisP
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Location: Holland, MI, USA
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Afflictions are not just another word for diseases in D&D. PnP introduced Ravages and Afflictions in the Book of Exalted Deeds as tools for good to use against evil.
The book says ravages and afflictions are "magical traumas that turn the moral corruption of evil creatures into physical corruption that wracks their bodies."
Ravages function mechanically as poisons and afflictions function mechanically as diseases.
_________________
I play:
Ginafae Dalael - Dancer, dreamer, and cleric of Eilistraee
Maura Connolly - Nurturing druid
Wilimac Merrymar - Daring (reckless?) hin rogue
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Yossarin
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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A very good question. Thanks for bringing it up.
....I don't have a good answer for you, either. It is a tough issue. My gut reaction is that it depends a lot upon what kind of poison and the intent behind the use of the poison. Though one cannot micromanage every individual use unless it is the situation of a DM at the table and a small group of PnPers.
I don't give a damn whether animals that use poison are of good or evil alignment. They're animals and lack a certain capacity for judgment. Magical beasts of intellect are a different matter, at times, but that really just complicates an already complicated issue.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Yossarin wrote: A very good question. Thanks for bringing it up.
....I don't have a good answer for you, either. It is a tough issue. My gut reaction is that it depends a lot upon what kind of poison and the intent behind the use of the poison. Though one cannot micromanage every individual use unless it is the situation of a DM at the table and a small group of PnPers.
I don't give a damn whether animals that use poison are of good or evil alignment. They're animals and lack a certain capacity for judgment. Magical beasts of intellect are a different matter, at times, but that really just complicates an already complicated issue. well said oh lord of yoss'sness
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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A Majestic Dwarf
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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If it helps the answer, the poisons which get used are the naturally made poisons available on the server via the Lizardmen Shaman in the Quagmire. The most common being Thornapple.
_________________
Avatar Picture from Brinawilliamson.com
Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Aurora wrote: If it helps the answer, the poisons which get used are the naturally made poisons available on the server via the Lizardmen Shaman in the Quagmire. The most common being Thornapple. I doubt such is evil, but i know very little about the poisons on this server
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:36 PM |
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DM
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Well it also depends on how it is used as I already said.
Using poison to torture someone slowly to death is evil yes.
Mala's case: She cannot kill a foe usually in a single swift strike. Poison helps to slow or weaken the enemy to -then- take him down swiftly.
No real torture involved here. Poison is a tool like a knife. You can slit someone's throat, or you can cut his sinews and slowly let him bleed to death and so on.
The action itself usually decides on the evil or good intent... rarely the tool itself.
But thats just my opinion.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote: Well it also depends on how it is used as I already said.
Using poison to torture someone slowly to death is evil yes.
Mala's case: She cannot kill a foe usually in a single swift strike. Poison helps to slow or weaken the enemy to -then- take him down swiftly.
No real torture involved here. Poison is a tool like a knife. You can slit someone's throat, or you can cut his sinews and slowly let him bleed to death and so on.
The action itself usually decides on the evil or good intent... rarely the tool itself.
But thats just my opinion. never dissagreed with that
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Tomato Sword
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Well, Amarice, I think it's fair to say what you just said is not just your opinion XD But opinion of many that already posted here!!
Thornapple is a poison that exists IRL. From little I know about it, it's... Uh. Deadly. But in a world full of people that can disintegrate someone with a flick or a wrist or lift a boulder with your index finger, it probably isn't that strong of a poison in Amia. xD;
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Grymia
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Here's how it breaks down in my opinion:
Poison on it's own, is not evil. Probably not the most goodly way of going but it's not intrinisically evil.
Poison fashioned from a Vile source (per Book of Vile Darkness) is DEFINITELY and Intrinisically evil.
Ravages and Afflictions, specialized substances used to combat evil are not evil for they only affect and influence evil in the fashion that they are meant to.
Poisons which are painful to the body that aren't Ravages and Afflictions, are evil.
Poisons which are quick and painfree, neutral.
ChrisP speaks rightly on Ravages and Afflictions. The word Affliction is anothr word for Disease in many cases but in some cases ith as the specific connotation. It's one you really wanna watch the context for.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Tue, Mar 20 2012, 22:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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I've had both good and evil chars of mine use poisons in various situations for various ends.
Some obviously to fight dirty, others to cause pain or kill and others given out to allies or used by the character to avoid torture or interrigation if they managed to use it and were weak enough to actually die from it.
in my opinion, poison isn't inherently evil, it's just destructive in nature. Poisons can be used in beneficial means as well.. I mean in the modern day and age, people actually get injected with small amounts of poison to have their body build up a resistance to it so it won't hit you as hard when you get old.. also known as injections or shots >_> And it's how I always imagined Assassins gained their poison resistances. Regular injections of various poisons they can get their hands on to build up immunities.
It's a lifeless inanimate tool waiting to be wielded for as many purposes as there are poisons.. just like a sword or bow. Depends on how you use it, and if it's a poison that kills painlessly.. I'd say it's "less evil" than thrusting a sword into someone's stomach during battle, or hurling a fireball at them.
And even if it's a really painful one.. I doubt it's more painful than a horrid wilting spell, which isn't evil either.
I've had my Eilistraeean use poisons on various occations for various reasons, never really saw any of the times he used it as more evil than shooting someone repeatedly with any other arrow.. still going to hurt like a b***. Just means that in the end you'll be in no position to fight anymore and if the poison user is smart.. he's got antidotes so his foe can be captured alive >_>
I also had my Eilistraeean give out various contraptions (most with a poison of some sort, given to him by a helping hand) that will help ensure you won't get interrigated or tortured if you can manage to use it properly.. IC wise that was much harder for him to do, than just shoot someone with a poisoned arrow. Mainly because it meant he'd be part of their demise if it came to that, even if it's a much better way to go than some others.
I think in the end it all comes down to the moral compass of your own char and how he/she feels about it's useage. I've looked trough what lore I had and could find on poisons.. and in no case (that I could find) does it state that using any kind of poison is inherently evil or good or any other alignment you can think of.
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Gunz
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 0:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Firstly, let's get the easy bits out of the way:
Just because Talona is the Goddess of poison doesn't mean poison is evil.
Animals are incapable of being "good" or "evil," they're inherently neutral. Always.
It's not a question of if poison (or even disease, for that matter) is evil. Neither is evil. Poison and disease occur naturally and just because their effect are often terrible, doesn't mean it's evil. There is no good or evil in natural occurrences. Nature isn't all pretty and nice, it's also ugly and harsh.
When you bring in the added factor of a sentient being manipulating nature for his or her own reasons, that is where things get foggy. Intent is probably the biggest determining factor on if an act is evil or good or somewhere in between. When an intelligent person uses poison or disease -- or indeed even a simple flail, simple sling or non-evil spell -- it's what they mean to do that really tells you on if the act is evil or good or something in between. Because of this, it's impossible to answer in a blanket statement.
Every time someone uses their sword on someone is a time where one has to stop and think in order to determine how good or how evil the act was. It's the same thing with a poison or disease. Admittedly, it's a lot harder to justify spreading diseases than poisoning someone as not evil. Obviously, we can't watch each PC every time they swing or thrust a weapon or sling a spell. Because of that, most of what your character is in terms of alignment is up to you players to be honest about.
Bringing in the added factor of faith makes it more messy. I wouldn't say poison is bad by default for Eilistraeens though.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 0:13 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I'd really want to put in in the same category of acid. There was a discussion a while back about whether or not it was evil and it's pretty much along the same lines as poison. Just like Gunz said, it's not intrinsically one or the other.
"*Gasp* You're a goodie but you have acid dripping from your blade?"
"...Yeah... what, is burning, freezing, or electrifying something to death supposed to be more humane?"
The real problem I think a few people can't move past is the connotation with poison and its classical methods of delivery. When most people think of it, they think of slipping it in a drink, sneaking up behind someone and darting them in the neck, or some such. The actual use of poison itself could be seen akin to putting Alchemist's fire on your blade. Some would say that's cheating for an upright person, others would say not. Nothing can or should change the IC perspective one way or another, but at the end of the day, when you remove any unscrupulous method of delivery, take any poison that comes from a non-vile source, it's just another chemical, effect, gimmick you have on your weapon.
_________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 2:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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My opinion is simple. Poison is a tool. The act decides if something is good or evil. If you kill someone with poison, your evil. If you defend yourself against an attacker with poison, then your not evil.
Poisons just the tool. To me, what you do with the tool defines.
Oh and to elobarate on the age old thingy of "Is using poison in a fight dishonourable". Damned right it is, underhanded tactic that. Is it good or evil though? No. I'd probably shift someone who uses poison in a fight towards choatic, not towards evil.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 2:46 AM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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No more underhanded that using your silencing, magic-fire-enchanted blade against someone you know doesn't have access to them.  Say for instance a blade that's enchanted to cause sleep vs. sleeping poison coated on a blade. The result is the same from both. The enemy is just as unaware of it. The same could be said for a weapon with magical Daze, ability drain, Blinding, etc compared to a chemical poison that would produce the same effect. "Dishonorable" is a heavily mutable IC thing and it doesn't strike me as something that should bear on your cosmic alignment. Heck, honor is a concept that varies between even people in the same alignment. After all, you said how you use the tool defines it. You slip it into a duel where both people are under the understanding they won't be used, then yes, that'd be Chaotic. You're not being straightforward. _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 9:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I'm not reading the topic. I see about 5 player sarguing so w/e.
Poison isn't explicitly evil but many of its uses could probably be construed as "Not Good". There exist variant "poisons" that exist to destroy undead and fiends specifically, so even poison has its good aligned variants.
It's a muddy issues with no easy answer, but I imagine good characters are much less inclined to usee traditional poisons than neutral or especially evils, but aren't barred form using them, nor would I lower a person's alignment for doing such.
The exception is Paladins. Paladins using traditional poison? Kaboom.
Regarding the specific question: Eilistraeeans are Eilistraeeans. But remember: They are also Drow. And above all, Drow love their poisons. Eilistraee has not truly fallen THAT far from the tree, even as a good aligned member of her race, so I would say poisons, used against evil foes, are right up her alley.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 13:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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You could also add using acid on weapons to this topic, since it is slightly similar. Very painful for your target, bordering on twisted and sadistic depending on its use.
_________________ 
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Zedrik
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 15:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Location: Silent Hill, Indiana
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Ulir wrote: You could also add using acid on weapons to this topic, since it is slightly similar. Very painful for your target, bordering on twisted and sadistic depending on its use. I don't understand this whole acid is like poisons sort of thing. Acid on weapons, to me, is more like fire on weapons or extreme cold on weapons. Or electricity on weapons. It burns, but doesn't continue to burn after hit. The pain is still there, but pain remains for any untreated wound. Physical, fire, acid, cold, electricity, sonic. (Unless it destroyed the pain receptors or something, I think, I'm not a doctor.)
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Tomato Sword
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 15:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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If someone wants to talk about how evil elemental coating on weapons are, maybe they should make their own topic >.>; The reason that people decided to make a lore forum was so that people can just look at the title of the thread to review relevant information and DM responses. Not to have some tangential argument going on ad nauseam.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 18:19 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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TormakSaber wrote: The exception is Paladins. Paladins using traditional poison? Kaboom. Just curious what you mean by traditional. You mean with the express purpose of killing something without a chance to fight back? _________________ You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 18:50 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I mean traditional poison in the context of my post. Aconite. Nightshade. Ammonia. Rat's poison.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 19:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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Tomato Sword wrote: blablablargh. This was directed at the OP as a suggestion if he was wondering about acids too (very similar situation, if you don't brush off acid as a minor inconvenience). I couldn't care less, since my good characters could likely see it as deranged means of injuring others, no matter what people here say. Subjective matters like poison usage doesn't have logical or definite answers. It's an IC PoV thing. Making a seperate thread would be folly IMO. OP seems to have gotten the argument he wants, seeing he made a request regarding this. @Zedrik: Wasn't comparing their nature, but what could perceived as evil if used. He uses arrows. If they are poisonous it shouldn't make much of a difference, since you are launching piercing projectiles at your opponent with the obvious intent to kill. Acids don't work over time in NWN due to balance I wager, except Melf's Acid Arrow. Just mentioning it. _________________
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Tomato Sword
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 19:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
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Ulir wrote: This was directed at the OP as a suggestion if he was wondering about acids too (very similar situation, if you don't brush off acid as a minor inconvenience). I couldn't care less, since my good characters could likely see it as deranged means of injuring others, no matter what people here say. Subjective matters like poison usage doesn't have logical or definite answers. It's an IC PoV thing. Making a seperate thread would be folly IMO. OP seems to have gotten the argument he wants, seeing he made a request regarding this. Your idea of what's you consider similar is shocking.
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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The Gods Must be Crazy SnippitHere's a method of using poison that would be considered good. AND it's from a fantastic movie, so that's even better. And you can probably even see Malandria somewhere in this video. 
Last edited by Mr. Hackums on Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Ulir
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
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@Tomato: I am not surprised you would think so.
You might know that acid comes in many variations and often (in NWN) burns over time and slowly corrodes your skin, likely causing debilitating effects. The fumes can even affect you as well. No specialist in what Amia has to provide of acids, but I assume there is a wide variety of nasty types with severe effects. Using such should also affect alignment and cause a moral dilemma. Paladins get divine damage infused to their weapons (against evil), opposed to slow and agonizing acid that can deform and alter the fighting style of an opponent to being chaotic and desperate, thereby - most likely - affecting their focus and chances of winning, instead of a fair and honorable fight.
Not poison, I said so in the earlier post, but similar how it works in some ways. Alignment and the moral dilemma it will/might cause, is basically the same as with poisons.
What is the debilitating effect of the AA arrows, which main source is acid again? Stun?
_________________
Last edited by Ulir on Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:31 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Mr. Hackums
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2008
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Ulir wrote: What is the debilitating effect of the AA arrows, which main source is acid again? Stun? It's a blinding effect....Hope this isn't like, supposed to be concealed.
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A Majestic Dwarf
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Posted: Wed, Mar 21 2012, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Location: Wales
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Its Blindess... as it gets in the eyes. Personally, I agree that Acid could be source of Moral Dilemma's due to how painful acid burns can be, or at least in my experience of getting acids of various kinds on my hands. However, I suspect its on the same premise as poison, as to the intent of how you use it, Acids are just a tool.
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King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
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Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat
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