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[ 46 posts ] |
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 16:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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*a notice is tacked up about Kohlingen and within the Keep as well (though kept out of the more formal parts)*
On Policies of Racial Law:
Our law prohibits those of fiendish, chromatic draconic bloodline and a few other races of suspect origin from stepping into our city. There is no question that these bloodlines have forms of taint and inclinations toward deeds that are below the standards of the Holy City. There is no question that these races should not be allowed to live in Kohlingen or live as a neighbor to our children ever in the future. However, if a person of one of these races is being hunted by Banites or a person of these races is collapsing of starvation outside of our walls or if they have information that could save a child of Kohlingen's life: What should we do?
I ask this question in a public notice because the problem has come up before and will come up again. There is a point where you must make exceptions to a dramatic law and not come across as strict fools. A guard might be able to bring a tiefling into our city to give him some bread from the market as long as they are kept under constant watch. Why couldn't a chromatic-embraced disciple spend time in one of our Keep's comfortable cells while they try to avoid unlawful persecution?
What are we to do if one of these races is doing their best, watched by the Gods, to atone for their ancestors' their own actions?
I ask that you think all of this over and account for perhaps the more circuitous ways a tainted being could help or has helped change your life. I ask that you think of ways that Kohlingen may remain a pure, holy city and yet not come across as hateful to an island full of individuals who are seeking to redeem their past. Unless every citizen has felt personally attacked by every descendant of every one of these races, I see no reason that certain individuals cannot be escorted to and from certain places because we are, after all, an understanding and empathetic city. We believe in strict forms of punishment, but also the betterment of those who wish and strive to be better. There is a balance to be maintained and Kohlingen could find ways to better fulfill this balance.
-Samantha, former squire of the Defenders and Triadic Knights and longtime resident of Kohlingen
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CelestialDante
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 16:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2009 Location: United Kingdom
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*Azeriel makes s copy of the notice, then he heads to the justicar*
_________________ Sir Azeriel El'johnson - Tormtar and Triadic Knight
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Lutra
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 17:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Samantha,
First of all I must ask you to stop the lies regarding your membership with the Triadic Knights. You never was and I doubt that you would ever become one or you would ever become one with your personality and temper.
The laws regarding the banishment on tieflings are there for a long time. The banishment on the chromatic kins is a new restriction which was approved by the Lord Justicar by my request. //I must point out that the IG law signs have to be updated which is a pending request, this is why I tend to bump my notice on the PC noticeboard.//
I understand that many people may have concern with these strict laws and I also accept the fact that there are good willed individuals of those races, even if the vast majority of them are evil.
An individual of these races with good will is something that I am happy to see. However, we must consider that the mentioned races, will always remain tainted in their body and in their soul. Kohlingen is a Holy City and thus one it's grounds are considered holy especially the inner city and the keep grounds. Their presence would taint and defile the holy grounds of the Triad and Bahamut and that would object with the penal law of the Holy City.
Quote: § 2 Defiling the Holy City. The person found guilty of it must pay a fine of 75.000 gold pieces, and will be banished from Kohlingen grounds.
At last nobody has ever said that a good willed individual would not be supported outside the city walls, because the knights of this city tend to operate outside the walls. I must point out the fact that even if they have something which would save the Holy City and they are indeed good-willed, then I am going to assume that they would find a way to reach us from outside the city and I sincerely hope that they would give that information to us without any sense of selfishness.
Sincerely, First Knight Yaston Sylgerand, Grandmaster of the Triadic Knights.
P.S.: For you to study the laws of the Holy City more carefully, I sincerely send you a copy of the laws. //PMed//
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 17:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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*tacked outside by the notice* To the Lords and Ladies, I am aware of your laws governing faith and race and while faith remains an agreeable constant, racially, what of us Kobolds? We bear the blood of Dragons within our veins and are descended directly of the line of Tiamat either directly by Her or by one of Her children, the Green known as Caesinsjach regardless of which creation story is given credence. Even my kin that follow Bahamut are keenly aware of their lineage and should acutely be aware of what I speak assuming they were raised within a Warren.
If you allow us to enter freely within your walls yet under your munthreki laws you would turn away even Chromatic kin that turn to Bahamut, then what is it that you find redeeming in our race to set us apart from the Dragon? I would very much like to know the answer to my queries and will respectfully remain beyond your gates as to not inadvertently break it's laws should it dictate that we are not allowed to enter.
While public response is always welcome, I would like to request a personal meeting with Lord Yaston or his subordinates to be held wherever is most convenient for them to discuss the matter in further detail and educate them as to the creation stories should they require such before coming to a ruling on the matter.
~Ascalon
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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Lutra
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 18:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Mr Ascalon,
The race of kobolds were always a special issue when the laws were made in the past,
Kobolds are not banned from the Holy City as a race, only if they serve an evil deity or they break one of the most serious penal laws.
Lord Bahamut tends to give blessings on kobolds and some of them do become either priests or paladins of the North Wind.
First Knight Yaston Sylgerand, Grandmaster of the Triadic Knights
P.S.: If you wish to discuss it any further then I will be happy to meet with you.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Tue, Jan 11 2011, 18:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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*spotting the response he leaves word with the guard that he indeed would like to speak with Lord Yaston whenever is most convenient for him*
((Free after 6pm CST any night of the week, open schedule for the weekends as well.))
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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Estara
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 15:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Kohlingenites,
Is there noone else that finds these laws suspect to unknown, ungrounded claims? What exactly does "defile the holiness" mean? Why does it happen when a tiefling or dragonkin walks with his feet across cobblestones to take a drink from our marketplace? Or does it mean what I always took it to mean-- that directly doing a deed that defies our Lord's tenants upon holy grounds is what defiles it. Which would not be walking.
And even if there are truths to these claims-- if Lord Bahamut and The Triad would strike us down for taking care of one who is being persecuted unjustly (does that sound odd to you?)-- why have we not made an effort to make a refuge for those we-- as our own Grandmaster claims-- know are not of evil intent? Why do we not make our own refuge for these individuals outside the laws of our Holy City? Is it not our knights job to protect those in need? To shelter those who are without a home?
Obviously they are in need and cannot find another refuge or they would not be coming our Holy City in the first place.
Yaston, none of this letter was directed at you nor was your name mentioned. It seems that thinking for yourself is something that is discouraged, continually, by you, specifically. I am, continually, disappointed by that. I will await a letter from you that answers the actual questions instead of simply supplanting an answer from someone else's mouth and claiming you understand what it means.
-Samantha
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Janna Ogder
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 18:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Sep 2010
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Janna, seeing some of this posts her own thoughts: Quote: Dearest Friends and Comrades,
I have spent much time with various members of the races in question. Tieflings, Chromatics, and what have you. I have met all manner of types of them, from the very evil to the very good. It is my opinion that none of these races are more prone to evil or good than any of the other races.
I have heard distressing things from some of you, hateful-seeming remarks made on the generality of race. I find this quite distressing.
It is a matter of fact that when I talk to some of those who are good in their heart and soul, I can't help but notice a bit of bitterness within those who, by reason of their birth, are considered unclean, evil, unholy. Bitterness can turn to resentment, and resentment to hatred and hatred often becomes an excuse for evil deeds. Why must we plant a seed of bitterness? We can be judged not only by our overt actions but by what harvest our actions bring, and if we continue to plant seeds of bitterness among those who excluded because of the accident of their birth, we can only blame ourselves when we find a bloody harvest.
Some members of the excluded wish nothing more than to attend to the temple of their gods.
I can't willingly be a participant to such a broad exclusion.
I submit, instead, the idea that, like bans, each supplicant from the excluded race be considered on a case by case basis on their own merits, at least.
Sister Janna Damone, Keeper of the Triad's Light
_________________ I hated hipsters before hating them was cool.
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P Three
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 19:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Chromatic dragonkin have willingly and purposefully embraced the nature of evil creatures.
By the dogma of the Triad, they are to be destroyed, without remorse, or mercy.
Tieflings /may/ battle their inner nature to embrace good, but should ever be treated with caution and wariness, lest the "change" simply be a ruse.
I grow /incredibly/ tired of people pandering to the "poor little Chromatic kin' who are just /so misunderstood/. They're not. They're evil, they embrace evil, they want to /be/ evil. So let them reap the rewards of their choice.
Delia Am'Anodel Paladin of Torm
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Grymia
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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*Illyana quietly regards this discourse and ponders to herself*
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Estara
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Miss Delia,
I am in no way condoning the actions of chromatic disciples. I am in no way condoning the actions of chromatic dragons. To do so would be against the core of my religion and beliefs. Do not misunderstand my words. However, I am proffering alternative ways of dealing with such beings rather than broad, brash statements of law. Laws are, by nature, meant to be mutually exclusive and inclusive. By excluding some we are including those that are not mentioned. However, I think there are better ways to make it clear that such creatures are not welcome while simultaneously making it clear that we are not a type of city that would refuse a tiefling child some food or water from an escort to our more generous citizens. Likewise of a poor, half-dragon child of a woman and a chromatic dragonkin whom had no decision in becoming who they are. Of course I am not pleased and of course I do not want a half-dragon, good intentions or not, living in my city. But I would not refuse them survival. I would wait until they have proven themselves worthy of a just, swift death. Would you kill them straight-out? If so, I am saddened. They did not choose to be born.
Sister Janna,
Thank you for your words and support that you believe there are alternatives to our current situations. As of your notice, I have been under the notion that I am the only believer of the Triad or Bahamut who stands for a more critical view on ourselves than on our enemies. To be critical of such races, first we must be critical of our actions towards them-- lest we become like them but doing our evil actions in the name of "Good."
I do hope that perhaps we could meet at some time -- and if others are interested -- to discuss what we may do to further some other courses of action. You can reach me by a private letter left at Mayfield's or The Keep.
Thank you all,
-Samantha
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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Delia Am'Anodel, There is nothing poor about the blood of Dragons regardless of lineage, young Paladin. Believing such is a common error on the part of ijols who lack proper schooling as to the nature of Dragon kind.
I hence will take the time to teach you, for your own benefit, that color does not delineate morality in the case of all dragon-kin with exception of True Dragons. It is a natural law of our blood that the further removed from the original source of the blood a being is, the less likely that kin is to follow the footsteps of their particular line.
For instance a Half-Dragon, or Sireling as my Warren had referred to them, has about a fifty percent chance of remaining true to their scale color's life style. An "experiment" as we refer to Dragon Disciples as, even less so. Proof of my meaning could be observed in Ixenarir'verthicha. He was a Red Sireling who slaved his time on this island away in devotion to saving the general munthreki menace from either itself or outside threats. He chose a life not defined by his scales but by what he believed was right. His path was that of Io's messenger. He wore proudly the symbol of Aasterinian and worked against even his own chromatic kin to ensure your safety.FIt he were evil, embraced by evil, and consumed by the color of his scales, I highly doubt he would -chose- to follow Aasterinian as her avatar is one of a Brass Dragon.
You would do well in the future, Paladin of Torm, follower of the Triad, to be entirely certain before you fling the muck from your armor where it potentially does not belong. Generalizations will lead even a Knight with intentions both noble and true into great folly. While a law is a law, and should be respected, laws are subject to amendments. Being a paladin, upholder of both faith and law, I would have expected you to understand such.
~Ascalon
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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P Three
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Any woman worth her weight would not bear a half-dragon of Chromatic blood. In that case, unless she is forced, she is as guilty as any Disciple, and I hold no sympathy for her.
Were she forced, then things take a turn and can be understood.
A tiefling, as I said, can be understood /if/ they prove they are actively trying to overcome their blood.
As for "poor halfdragon children", or even "poor half-fiend children", barring the circumstances above, I don't believe any such being can truly be called "good", and I would not have them in any holy place of the Triad. Let them survive outside the city then. These aren't people we're talking about. Dragons are creatures of absolute, and nothing that is half absolute evil can ever be counted upon to be good. Children are generally by nature, innocent. But we have all seen that even THAT is not always the case, and opening the doors of the holy city to one seeming-innocent with the stamp of evil all over it is just asking for trouble.
And Ascalon, I can count on one finger the number of decent chromatic-bloods of any sort I've ever met. I remain firm. Chromatics. Are. Evil. Their "disciples", or kin, or whatever you want to call them, know this, and bring that blood out anyway. For that, if no other reason, they have earnt judgment. I will not go soft on a race of evil because of one or two exceptions, nor will I allow them into a position to harm goodly people because of bleeding hearts.
Cordor is but a short boat ride away, give them the gold and send them there, if you /must/ have a soft spot for evil things just because they're young.
But I wonder...do you stay your hand against young goblins? Just a thought. THEY did not ask to be born either.
Delia Am'Anodel
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Estara
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Miss Delia,
I believe I have repetitively stated I do not wish any of such to reside in our City in great length. But to refuse them safe passage through or to refuse some of them food or water seems, well, evil. Absolutes, especially upon this island, are strong decisions to come to. I recommend that you think once more about your belief in such absolutes and review whether or not you have ever been wrong. Because, if you have, then you must surely believe that absolutes have their exceptions. I am not against these laws-- moreso I am disappointed at how the majority of those I have encountered perceive and enforce them.
I am quite aware of the danger of letting these beings through. I believe I mentioned that all should be escorted. Do you not believe in the abilities of the Knights and guardians and such of our city? If so, why are they defending it in the first place?
Would I kill a goblin child? Yes, if it attacked me. I am not foolish. However, no, I would not hunt it down, if it was running away from me. No, I would not kill it if it begged me for food and swore that it would not hurt me or somesuch.
Any other examples you'd like to ask? Perhaps you as well would like to meet in person!
-Samantha
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P Three
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I've no honest desire for that. I have my views, and I will not change them for some simpering ideal of tolerance. That's /not/ what I'm here for. I am here to find, and extinguish, evil. Children may not yet be set in their ways, however, I see no reason to let them in if they are half unrepentant evil and half who-knows-what. There's a boat just outside. If they need care, the Salandrans can see to them just as well, if not better, than our clerics. I am not here to minister to the sickly, or the unwell. I am not even here to spread Torm's word in any more than deed. That's for the clergy. I am here for one reason, and one reason only. To destroy that which reeks of darkness and do my /damnedest/ to ensure it stays dead. If you're seeking philanthropy, you're on a useless hunt here. If they /are/ evil, if they have /done/ evil, if they have embraced it and it resonates within them, I will not stay my blade for some doe-eyed philosophy, for they are no longer innocent.
The Knights are capable, but they have better things to do than shepherd around things that shouldn't be in the city /to begin with/. Don't you think they have other jobs beside wet-nurse, perhaps, to devote time and energy to?
If it's tolerance you want, and open helpfulness you seek, I hear the Salandran temple is in need of nursing staff. Try there.
Delia Am'Anodel
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 22:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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Delia of Torm, Accept the lesson for what it is young munthrek. I would like to call your own character though and seek your answer to the question: What motivates you as one bearing the title of Paladin?
By your own reasoning, as displayed in your messages, you would just as soon condone of the reasoning behind my people's stance upon Gnomes: "They deserve it. They aren't 'people' just beings hell bent upon the destruction as they spawn of an absolute evil and hence cannot be redeemed." You wish to see the evil cleansed, do you not?
You, of your own accord, spout forth a web of hate and trecherous, aggressive words against an enemy you know little to nothing about. I do not for a moment defend nor deny the nature of Tiamat and her direct children, but dragons are not absolute creatures with exception of True Dragons alone.
Devils and Demons I willingly admit to knowing little of beyond them being evil, but Dragons are something I do know and do understand. Please listen to my words and allow them more than a glancing moment to read so as to form a dispute.
Tell me truly what motivates you young paladin, for the driving force behind Delia of Torm that you yourself have presented here is that of a "blessed" genocide of those deemed evil, not by fact, but by -her- eyes brought about by divine reasoning and ignorance of truth which I have belief must be false for you to bear your title at all. ~Ascalon
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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Zinovy
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 23:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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*Walks by, not having seen Schindler's List, and wonders what a genocide is and what the fuss is about.*
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P Three
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Posted: Wed, Jan 12 2011, 23:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Find me a true dragon of Chromatic colour that is not evil, and I will accede your point. Until then, they, and all who seek to be like them, are evil, and they die at my hands. We know how to find evil. We know how to stop it.
Delia Am'Anodel
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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CelestialDante
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 0:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2009 Location: United Kingdom
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*Azeriel takes a moment to think of the fallen in the Wyrmhold war*
_________________ Sir Azeriel El'johnson - Tormtar and Triadic Knight
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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Paladin Delia, A true Chromatic Dragon, as even I have stated you, you will never find swayed to good. The exception is if the gods themselves intervene. The North Wind has swayed but only a flight of Blues with any success to my knowledge and that much is rumored to have been through direct contact. It is your duty as a paladin to uphold and defend good, but how can you if you cannot recognize it in those you have already set yourself to hate?
As stated before, the hole in your logic lays with the wanton dismissal of evidence presented to you proving the contrariety of your stance. Supplied with one goodly Chromatic, I have the inkling that you would then ask for ten, for twenty, for forty, until every last one could be accounted for as having converted. You do little to honor your faith young ijol through your continual denial of facts when shown to you. Justice may be blind, but it knows truly the hearts of others where as you do not.
Perhaps it is that you crave vengeance for graves recently defiled and lives lost when last a Chromatic flight swarmed your city or took root on this island. Yet your city still stands and the foes that committed the attack were all slain. Do you demand more blood for a particular loss that may have affected you deeply? How much blood will be enough, young paladin if this is indeed the case? It seems your youth shows you a path of folly. I pray that the Ninefold Dragon intercedes for His Children and peels back the haze in your blinded eyes of anger, replaces your ignorant lips of fallacy with lips that only speak truth, and removes the scars of your spirit that you may fully come to terms with the reality of his divine creation which is the very world around you.
~Ascalon
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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Esprey
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2009 Location: U.S.Bleh...
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A certain Triadic Squire, female, short, horned and carrying a brute of a sword almost as big as she is, stops by to read the postings and sighs heavily.
_________________ Mylana Feycaster- The witch!
All other characters shelved due to burn out..
Last edited by Esprey on Thu, Jan 13 2011, 12:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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P Three
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Actually, I've met precious few of the scalykind, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. Metallic-kin are welcome in my presence, so long as they maintain the goodly nature of their dragon-ancestors. I'm simply not one of these mewling fools who thinks every person who insists they mean no harm actually /means/ it. Nor will I ever be.
Idly, condescension doesn't work as well as you might hope.
We're done here.
Delia Am'Anodel.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Estara
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Miss Delia,
I am only going to speak about tieflings with you at the moment and not dragonkin.
I am in no way asking the Triadic Knights to be an escort themselves. Nor, Delia, would I call doing goodly deeds for those in need or escorting tieflings and others of mixed heritage races with profound influence on the Amian islands "wet-nursing." I am wishing for the chance to be what you call a "wet-nurse." For now, it is not. Did you see me ask any specific person to do it, or simply for the ability to do it? I will do it myself as much as I am able for any. Moments of my time spent changing the island's views on the radicalism of Kohlingen does not seem like a waste.
I am not telling you that you should have to do it, so why are you telling me that I should not? Especially if there is no proof that there is "a physical taint that spreads" from them.
-Samantha
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CelestialDante
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Posted: Thu, Jan 13 2011, 3:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2009 Location: United Kingdom
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*Azeriel checks over the postings, and thinks with only three people registering any opposing opinion, surely most people like things the way they are?*
_________________ Sir Azeriel El'johnson - Tormtar and Triadic Knight
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 3:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Location: Denmark
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DustSpray101 wrote: Paladin Delia, A true Chromatic Dragon, as even I have stated you, you will never find swayed to good. The exception is if the gods themselves intervene. The North Wind has swayed but only a flight of Blues with any success to my knowledge and that much is rumored to have been through direct contact. It is your duty as a paladin to uphold and defend good, but how can you if you cannot recognize it in those you have already set yourself to hate?
As stated before, the hole in your logic lays with the wanton dismissal of evidence presented to you proving the contrariety of your stance. Supplied with one goodly Chromatic, I have the inkling that you would then ask for ten, for twenty, for forty, until every last one could be accounted for as having converted. You do little to honor your faith young ijol through your continual denial of facts when shown to you. Justice may be blind, but it knows truly the hearts of others where as you do not.
Perhaps it is that you crave vengeance for graves recently defiled and lives lost when last a Chromatic flight swarmed your city or took root on this island. Yet your city still stands and the foes that committed the attack were all slain. Do you demand more blood for a particular loss that may have affected you deeply? How much blood will be enough, young paladin if this is indeed the case? It seems your youth shows you a path of folly. I pray that the Ninefold Dragon intercedes for His Children and peels back the haze in your blinded eyes of anger, replaces your ignorant lips of fallacy with lips that only speak truth, and removes the scars of your spirit that you may fully come to terms with the reality of his divine creation which is the very world around you.
~Ascalon
Perhaps you should not be so fast to comment on the will of bahamut, for there is no room for any kind of evil in the wake of the lord of the north wind, we show compassion, but this should not excuse us for being cautius. You should not forget how one attains chromatic wings, in my experience there is but two ways to do this. -Close Draconic Heritage: if a person is a half blood then there is no limit to thier evil, they are tainted by birth, and while they should be pittied for the cursed that has been laid upon them they should not be in any way trusted inside the holy walls, they are spawn of chromatic dragons and are driven by hatred and lust for power. It is thier nature. -Dragon Deciples, while the nature of dragon deciples varies greatly, they have by chosen ignited thier ancestors dark nature to gain power, it is as corrupting an act to cast these spells, driving the very nature of your evil ancestors into you, as it is an foul act to deflesh your arm in palemastery. To bear the wings of chromatic dragons not only shows a devotion to this past, but it shows pride in being a ancestor of immense evil...you find me a deciple of chromatic dragons, with a good reason for keeping thier wings, a symbol of thier corruption, and I will concide my point. I find that those I have meet are still lured by the power they have awokened in themselves and as such are deviants and corrupted, perhaps even more than the half dragons of the world, for they..atleast..had no choise They should never be allowed inside Kohlingen, for they do not have the pure heart to face thier dark pasts and cut the ties with them, and as such, they, remains unredeemed. And thirdly, do not speak of wars you have not experienced, many died in those battles and the motives and sorrow they left behind is clearly something you cannot comprehend, and the very notion of you thinking it motivates a paladin to foul deeds of revenge and bloodlust sickens me, you should indeed be ashamed of yourself, using Lord bahamut's name to cast hatefilled words upon defenders of the light while spitting on the graves of those who fought in the wars against Tiamat's enslavement of the world. -Saisha Jai'diem, Knight of the North Wind
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 5:22 AM |
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Joined: 30 May 2009 Location: Idaho
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So much hate, I will pray to the morning lord that many of you will realize that filling yourself with hate will lead you down the path you so desperately oppose.
I also wish to point out that humans, elves, dwarves and so forth, are just as likely to be swayed to evil as -any- other creature. However if you insist on slaughtering those you, with prejudice, consider evil without offering the chance of redemption... You are no better than the banites and their pursuit of domination through subordination of all and killing those who disagree with them.
Your beliefs or instincts call for blood, miss Delia, but which is the justified, which is the more holy? Blood is still spilled, innocent and guilty killed on both sides, your violent lust begets rage, anger and more blood. Believe me, as I have been on both sides of the spectrum. Dragonkin and planar bloodlines should be the least of your worries.
For the record, there are a few chromatic kin that are pleasant to speak with, so long as you aren't threatening them. Something I fear paladin Delia has never done.
Vick Bross, Faithful of Lathander
*tacked on the end*
Paladin Delia,
From a professional artist, politician and tactician's perspective... Please don't view this as an attack against you personally... I see your previous responses as rather weak, that being an overstatement... Their arguments lack a solid foundation and seem as if you were trying to catch the wind for a solid defense but came up empty handed. I hope you will reread all the words posted and reevaluate your thinking to see it's current folley.
Vick
_________________ Keelah Se'lai
Last edited by drahgon on Fri, Jan 14 2011, 5:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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P Three
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 5:28 AM |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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There's no futher post from Delia, apparently her "We're done here" meant /she/ is done here.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 5:45 AM |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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Be at peace young one.
If I misspoke then may she truly answer my question. If she ignores it, as she seems more than pleased to do, then who are you, Saisha Jai'diem, Knight of the North Wind, to fault me the same ignorance shown unto me? To take lightly the ignorance of the young ijols is to breed more that will seek to see our divine blood spilled across its own creation.
I follow the path of the Ninefold Dragon, far more demanding to most of our kind than any other of our gods' paths. From the perspective of the Path the only shame here lies with poor education which comes to the fault of both parties of the siblings. Tiamat is the sister of Bahamut spawned from the same clutch out of Love by Io himself. Conquer your petty emotions, set them aside as do the True Dragons, and let them not get the better of you in this discourse for both Tiamat and Bahamut hold a place within the lair of He Who Created the Multiverse and this is a powerful fact neither twin can deny. Their story is the shining example of the duality of our very blood. The blood that we, spawn of Dragons, share as Io's extended bloodline.
~Half-Dragons bear choice the same as their ijol parent to chose a life of good or evil or walk the line between them both. The prominent blood of the Dragon will of course influence this decision but once the mind is made up, the power of Io's blood strengthens it to ends greater than either of the squabbling siblings could provide. If you take the time to observe such occurrences, you too will see the same as there is no denying it.
~Experiments do just as their title implies: Experiment. They had no choice in their heritage and only vaguely feel the pulling of the blood that dwells within them. They choose not what Dragon their ancestor was, but rather to embrace their distant heritage. To believe otherwise is a folly. First they sprout the scales and learn the tint of their ancestor. This, to my knowledge, cannot be undone for the calling of Io's blood cannot be Silenced. From there they embark to unlock their bloodline. A Red experiment goes through rituals no darker than a Gold. Just as an Evil Gold Experiment can be discovered, so can a Good Red Experiment. The following is also true: The truth of their moral intent remains hidden to an already closed mind that refuses to think of looking and eyes that only see color and crave blood. Non-True Dragons are absolute only in morality they choose to follow and were raised to accept.
~I make an inquiry to the city itself: Should the distant relative of Venomindhar the Green be brought before you as an orphan child, how would you know it?
Unless the gods themselves told you of its heritage, it would be raised in the goodly ways either by those of the North Wind or by an Orphanage of goodly munthrek gods in the ways of goodly morality. It would feel the tugging of its Draconic blood, and, if blessed with talent, however small, in the arcane, it would one day seek to solve the mystery of its inner being. It would go to your kin for guidance, to the ones it knew to represent the righteousness of good morality when dealing with Dragon kind within the walls of this city as well as the shores of this island. He would find a tutor, and be walked through the opening ritual of all Experiments. As a result its scales would manifest. There, upon its skin would lay the deep green of its ancient ancestor whose color had no bearing upon its life until this point. Would you then see it banned from the city that raised it? From the people that cared deeply for it and held hope for its future. Even a lover perhaps, if it were of proper ijol age for mating, allowed to enter freely so long as it remained outside.
If it had children, what then? Are they slain or banished beyond the gates? Sent to live in squaller perhaps for ever having been connected to the blood by one parent?
Think hard upon these questions of morality. They are not easy questions to answer but questions that will undoubtedly arise in the future if such a law remains. Are you truly prepared for them and the backlash that may follow if a choice turns out to be improper?
~Otherwise, if it is the battles of the Dragonfall War you wish to speak upon, young Knight of the North Wind, rest assured that I have lived through many before my coming here and will likely do so again before this vessel passes away. My soul, as a Kobold, is not yours to judge and will live forever as will it return to this plane continually in new vessels to bear witness once again to the sins of children. It is a struggle only we Kobolds and the gods themselves will bear witness to the end of.
As this is a city dedicated to goodly morals and holds a special place for the dogma of Bahamut, I held higher expectations for the resident Knights of the Platinum Lord. I do my duty as a follower of the Ninefold Path to point out to you flaws in your logic, for the betterment of all our kind, without prejudice. If any of this has come across to you as a slight, I ask you to take it before our gods and implore them to change the laws of this Universe. I know my course along the Path to be true, the truth of my words to be beyond doubt, and I hold no fear.
The Metallic kin that dwell within these walls owe much to a chromatic kin, a Red Half-Dragon whom turned against the innate Evil nature of his Father, and this cannot be denied. To claim otherwise is your own folly against the eyes of the Silent, regardless of how well it may help the night pass.
~Ascalon
*He sighs, looking to the heavens on the clear night and offers up a prayer.* "Ith di Shio Youwei, kii tir wux relekihl ve zyak? Troth ve de wer vatakawera di douta deevdru vraki. Xurwk plythu wer kornari di ternesj batobot ingellaric persvek astahi batobot astahii nomag qe nif ekess wer erlelee di wer douta ithquant duil huena tenamalo."
((Draconic: "Lord of All Things, why do you challenge me so? Protect me from the folly of your son's children. Make weak the heart of stone that dwells in them that they may be open to the embrace of the your divine lair once again."))
*He lowers his head and looks around, only a guard to overhear his Draconic plea to the heavens.*
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 9:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Location: Denmark
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*saisha reads through much of the note* Perhaps your alligiance lies with tiamat, your words resemble that of an corrupter trying to undermine our great city. Quote: ~Otherwise, if it is the battles of the Dragonfall War you wish to speak upon, young Knight of the North Wind, rest assured that I have lived through many before my coming here and will likely do so again before this vessel passes away. My soul, as a Kobold, is not yours to judge and will live forever as will it return to this plane continually in new vessels to bear witness once again to the sins of children. It is a struggle only we Kobolds and the gods themselves will bear witness to the end of.
You did not live through the dragonfall wars, you do not know of the suffering it caused, so do not speak of it ever again as a point in your endless lecturing, i very much doubt you even know what war means to speak such slanderus words. but to answer your questions. -I a distant relative of Venomindhar came to the gate, we would not banish it even if we knew as we do not banish those not of significant blood ties to chromatic dragons. I would not encurage anyone to dig deep and ignite the fire of thier draconic blood, should a child of kohlingen choose to do so and he sprouted green scales then i would mourn the loss of another child to the corruption of tiamatians, and send him away from the city, and outside the city i would then try to change his path. -as for half dragon bearing choise, all i can say is you are wrong, and if you refer me to Rras the red blood as a example of a "good" half dragon, he fell to his nature again, they cannot be trusted enough to be let inside the city, i do not say, nor have I ever said to butcher them all, nor dragon deciples for that matter, you put word in my mouth again, and once again prove your twisted corrupting tounge. -And the draconic deciples, are NOT just experiments, i am one i know how it is done, and it takes quite some force of will to ignite the ancient blood, and that ancient blood will take hold it will bide for control of you, you once again show your immense ignorance and try to put word in my mouth, i did not say the scales should be cut off, i said the wings should be removed, as they are the most clear sign of thier corruption. Such a operration can be actually done painlessly, and would show the dragon deciples willingness to change from thier corrupting path. I consider this debate over and futher slandering of The paladins or My name, will not be tolorated as peacefully as this and the notice will be removed, you have been warned. Respect the laws of kohlingen or go elsewhere, this is not and clearly never will be a town where you will have influence, your tounge is forked and dribbling with lies and chromatic propaganda. -Saisha Jai'diem, Knight of the North Wind. PS. Dont call me young one, i am not nor ever will i be consider your younger, for I doubt your age is beyond mine, and i very much doubt you are caperble of the responcibility of elderhood.
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 9:57 AM |
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Location: Denmark
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drahgon wrote: So much hate, I will pray to the morning lord that many of you will realize that filling yourself with hate will lead you down the path you so desperately oppose.
I also wish to point out that humans, elves, dwarves and so forth, are just as likely to be swayed to evil as -any- other creature. However if you insist on slaughtering those you, with prejudice, consider evil without offering the chance of redemption... You are no better than the banites and their pursuit of domination through subordination of all and killing those who disagree with them.
Your beliefs or instincts call for blood, miss Delia, but which is the justified, which is the more holy? Blood is still spilled, innocent and guilty killed on both sides, your violent lust begets rage, anger and more blood. Believe me, as I have been on both sides of the spectrum. Dragonkin and planar bloodlines should be the least of your worries.
For the record, there are a few chromatic kin that are pleasant to speak with, so long as you aren't threatening them. Something I fear paladin Delia has never done.
Vick Bross, Faithful of Lathander
*tacked on the end*
Paladin Delia,
From a professional artist, politician and tactician's perspective... Please don't view this as an attack against you personally... I see your previous responses as rather weak, that being an overstatement... Their arguments lack a solid foundation and seem as if you were trying to catch the wind for a solid defense but came up empty handed. I hope you will reread all the words posted and reevaluate your thinking to see it's current folley.
Vick Accuse us of being banites and you will answer to me! Do not try to be a expect on a subject you do not understand, you want blind tolorance go to cordor and stay there, and NOTE THAT KOHLINGEN NOR MYSELF DOES NOT AND NEVER WILL BLINDLY KILL THOSE TAINTED BY CHROMATICS, UNLESS THEY BREAKE THE LAW IN SEVERE WAYS, WE ARE BEINGS OF LAW HERE. Cant deal with that, cordor will indulge in your reckless abandonment for prudence concerning the Chromatics. -Saisha Jaidem, Knight of The North Wind
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Pony
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 12:03 PM |
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Joined: 07 May 2005
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::
On an occasional visit to the City of Kohlingen lord Robert reads over one or two of the notices, then continues on his way, having no interest to read the rest. Perhaps his opinion of such public bickering and heated-writing is not very high or he just does not have the time to read every one of those statements.
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DustSpray101
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 16:33 PM |
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008 Location: Night Vale
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Saisha Jai'diem, Knight of the North Wind,
I, Ascalon, servant of the Shaper of the Multiverse, will have seen 124 years in three cycles. Do not presume to tell me what my eyes have witnessed as I have lived to see the Time of Troubles and the sparks of the first Dragonfall War rekindled in the Platinum Lord's return to his rightful place in the heavens. I have witnessed atrocities in warfare that you likely cannot comprehend. I have survived seeing my entire tribe viciously slaughtered by Gnomes and munthreki and understand that vengeance will not grant the closure sought. War will only bring suffering and strife, all of which deserves the deepest pity. I ask you not speak of history if you know nothing of it, youngling, and show an old Wyrm the respect he rightly deserves from one of lesser strength in Blood.
Your tongue bears words born of anger that an elder Draconic mind would have the wisdom to hold and, if you truly were an elder, you would act properly as a bearer of Io's blood and I would have to remind you. Silence whatever you wish but the truth always finds a voice, distant child of the Platinum Lord.
Experiment, in the Draconic tongue holds no bile in its meaning. That you take this personally and choose to attack it so viciously as a True Dragon might its hoard, means that I may have missed a connotation in the Common definition of it and if this is the case please accept my deepest apologies as such was not meant as an insult. Those that choose to awaken their blood are, however weak the portion of the blood is, still of kin and I strive to respect all kin regardless of color or their ranking within the proper hierarchy of Io's Blood:
True Dragons Half-Dragons Dragonlings Kobolds Disciples
Your statements in your disciplship's defense, however, do not do them justice. Disciples of Metallics go through the same rites as disciples of all dragons and progress physically at the same rate. On what grounds do you place yourself above goodly ijols that take the same path to awaken chromatic scales? These scales hold no sway over the individual, as you stated, when so far removed of their blood source. What then is it about the wings? Wings hold no further sway over the mind than the scales. To what source of anatomy do you turn to feeling the authority to express the opinion that the color of the scales upon, most specifically, wings let alone their existence, are symbolic of their apparent transgression? They merely followed the same rituals to the natural end. If the scales upon them did nothing to put them beyond redemption, why then cry for their willing mutilation before they be considered to be worthy of change? Inconsistency like this betrays the intentions, no matter how noble, of such a law.
As for engaging in civil public discourse as to the nature of your law, I assure you I speak only what is expected of me by Io. Your rage is noted and it's transgressions in this civil public discourse are, at this moment, forgiven.
"What will it take to open their eyes to truth?" I meditated upon this and found the answer I believe most fitting:
I hereby submit myself to the test of morality only Paladins can administer. If you believe me evil and my morality is being called to question then do your duty as I stand beyond the gates to see my intent and have me dealt with accordingly. I would call upon the Knights of the Triad, outsiders to this discourse between those of Io's blood, to administer the test and have their gods grant a vision of my moral standing. If such is done, I have no doubt that you will see I speak only truth. Slander has not been committed by me and any grievance still held after such test occurs is with the gods themselves.
Lastly, I have never stated Ixenarir'verthicha to be morally aligned with good, but simply that the children of the metallics owe him a debt of gratitude. He walked a path of neutrality fighting his blood line's draw to evil and used his talents to save the munthreki that dwell within these blessed walls. His fall into his blood was not one made of his own volition. When speaking truth, tell the whole of it. Do not discount the influence of the Count whom was a product of ijol creation who held control over tremendous magics and what he did to him. Even the mighty elf in the Weave Knights fell victim to the power of the Count. If you did not witness it yourself, I am certain many within these sacred walls would attest to the truth in my words.
~Ascalon((*If someone wishes to meet in game for the Detect Evil test, we can do so, otherwise if forums suffice, I have no issue stating I play a Kobold that is of a Neutral Alignment.)) //Edit: Fixing grammar. Content remains untouched.
_________________ Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X Sven <=={o===========> Qeelak \ | / ,
Last edited by DustSpray101 on Fri, Jan 14 2011, 17:16 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 17:09 PM |
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Joined: 30 May 2009 Location: Idaho
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Kraniumbrud wrote: Accuse us of being banites and you will answer to me! Do not try to be a expect on a subject you do not understand, you want blind tolorance go to cordor and stay there, and NOTE THAT KOHLINGEN NOR MYSELF DOES NOT AND NEVER WILL BLINDLY KILL THOSE TAINTED BY CHROMATICS, UNLESS THEY BREAKE THE LAW IN SEVERE WAYS, WE ARE BEINGS OF LAW HERE. Cant deal with that, cordor will indulge in your reckless abandonment for prudence concerning the Chromatics. -Saisha Jaidem, Knight of The North Wind Knight, I am at a loss for your inability to read everything I say and merely look for small snippets out of context to try and argue with. I will start with, I never accused anyone of being Banites, I was pointing out that the ways many knights act is akin to banites. As for your claim that you are beings of law... So are banites, that gains you no ground. You seem to live in a world that is strictly black and white, good and evil with nothing in between. A view that I once thought only young children possessed while they were growing up before learning about the complexities of life. Remember that unless compulsed by a spell or love for family etc. People willingly choose their paths that they walk. A chromatic kin raised amongst the knights of kohlingen, like the example previously used, would be far more inclined to being "good" as they were raised in such and surrounded by it, while your desire to throw them out after having being raised there just because they grew wings that werent like yours, could scar the child so deeply as to have an undying hate for kohlingen. Unfortunately that is the path you apparently wish to walk, creating enemies for yourself won't bring peace, when you learn that the only way for there to be peace is for enemies to be made into friends and helped from their misguided paths, you will then be a true knight. Until then it pains me to say that you are merely another bloodthirsty knight just like many others. Vick Bross, Faithful of Lathander Kraniumbrud wrote: I consider this debate over and futher slandering of The paladins or My name, will not be tolorated as peacefully as this and the notice will be removed, you have been warned. Respect the laws of kohlingen or go elsewhere, this is not and clearly never will be a town where you will have influence, your tounge is forked and dribbling with lies and chromatic propaganda.
-Saisha Jai'diem, Knight of the North Wind. I am sorry to do this, but you are requiring respect when we has been nothing but respectful and logical in the debates, then turn right after and insult? Please reevaluate your words before you put them up.
_________________ Keelah Se'lai
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Silvarus
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 17:32 PM |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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*Godfrey stares astonished as one of the stupid letter chains has appeared now on Kohlingen as well, and considers torching it. He decides otherwise and marches on.*
_________________ Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar Silwe, the elf
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 17:45 PM |
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Location: Denmark
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*Reads the kobolds post and rolls eyes*
Idiot, he has meet me, surely he knows i am in my mid 200's..
*reads futher down in the note*
Right i give up...some people are simply blinded by idiocresy
*Then she reads the next note...her jaw dropping*
...atleast the clergy of lathander agrees with me.
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Estara
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 18:34 PM |
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Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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To all,
I thank you for your passion and commitment to your beliefs. It is at least inspiring to come across those with a force of personality behind them, even if so many seem aggravated to the point of giving up. I want you all to know that this was not an attempt to start insulting one another but an attempt at understanding and coming to see what sort of opinions are within and without Kohlingen. Many within Kohlingen do not understand the opinions of them without and many who are not knights within Kohlingen have opinions that go unheard.
I have yet to receive concrete evidence about the "taint" lying in individuals and the need for blanket laws at all times. If anyone has information on how to better understand this idea of "taint" and seeming self-contradictions of many of the Triadic Knights spokespeople then I am still curious to hear it.
-Samantha
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Jes
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Posted: Fri, Jan 14 2011, 21:12 PM |
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DM
Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Location: Camriiole
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Zelly happens to walk by the wall of notices in Kohlingen during one of her usual visits to pay her respects to the altar of Bahamut. Seeing the first notice, she nearly drops her bow in her alarm at the name signed to the bottom of the page. She scans through the rest of the notices, coppery wings twitching behind her. When she gets to the final notice written by Samantha, she lets out a frustrated grunt and takes a moment to flail about in a way that may seem odd to the onlooker. She might even be heard raising her voice somewhat in exasperation, though not directed at anyone in particular as she makes her way out of the city again:
"It's not taint; it's magic! Dragon blood is magical! It's the only reason the absolutes are there, but the point is they're still there! Chromatics are evil, murderous, bloodthirsty beasts!"
_________________ Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
See me DM-side as: [DM] Hlal | [DM] The Voice
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666WaysToHell
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Posted: Sat, Jan 15 2011, 7:19 AM |
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Western Australia
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*a young Squire making her way around Kohlingen checking the laws in question are still being followed, she gazes upon the vast amounts of letters. She shakes her head and laughs.*
*she jests with the closest guard to the vast pile*
"A paladin questioning just laws? Soon she will be hugging Banites and giving them shelter from we who apparently prosecute them unjustly.."
*she makes her way to the city hall asking if such a vast amount and waste of parchment (or whatever) is classed as littering in the city*
_________________ Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
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Kal Sar
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Posted: Sat, Jan 15 2011, 11:19 AM |
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Joined: 19 May 2008
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Justin is both intrigued and bemused by the exchanges of letters postings, insults and occasional gems of wisdom. He quills a reply which he posts.
“Samantha,
I have held my peace to see what was said and now with what wisdom the Lord of Justice has granted me I will state what His path has shown me in my life as reflected in the Catechism of the Sword. If one would learn this Catechism then seek me.
Much has been said and this long missive does not seek to answer all such posings. I seek only to say what I as a servant of Tyr and a Triadic Knight hold to in faith.
First, to Ascalon I would gladly offer to cast Tyr’s sight upon your soul. Yet such a vision of your soul tells me where you stand this day and not your direction of travel. Is it toward good or evil?
In this as for anyone who we are today is the result of all our choices from all our yesterdays. Who we will be tomorrow is who we are becoming today through today’s choices. This is why I generally refrain from such testing for it is only a painting of a person on one day of their life.
If placed beside other paintings then it can be used to determine a person's direction which is inpart a key point of this discussion. Namely, is past sin more powerful than Good's redemption?
That said I hold as taught by that just as the sides of “Mercy” and “Judgment” form the “Edge of Justice” so mercy and judgment must guide me in my thinking here. Yet I must also be guided as taught by the sides of “Reason” and “Belief” that form the other edge of my sword. The edge called the “Edge of Faith”.
In this exchange there are those that would elevate reason to godhood by denying belief its place. Just as there are those that would worship unreasoning belief. True faith is not blind. It is formed where reason and belief meet. Just as true Justice comes where judgment and mercy meet.
I do not know if a taint in blood exists but there is a belief that it does. This belief has been formed by the experience of those who have gone before as given to them as an insight from the gods or so it is claimed. That the gods see more clearly than I is true and I would not be so proud as to say they are blind.
Yet I am bid by my Lord Tyr not to punish the children for the sins of their parents. I am taught that evil is not more powerful than good. Therefore, there is no evil act that cannot be repented of should one choose to truly repent. To say that the heritage of an evil parent is more powerful than good’s redemptive power is to say evil is more powerful than good and that I do not believe is true given my experience.
Yet the Gods decree that heritage as somehow being a taint. In this I am reminded that my Lord’s will is sometimes beyond my reasoning and it is at this point I must rely on belief not my reason. Therefore I must disappoint those worshippers of reason who demand of me a reason.
Still I offer this. Perhaps the reason why our Gods set apart such as these of “tainted” blood is not that they are unholy of and by themselves because of blood. As we know there are some of tainted blood who are as near as I can prove as good as I.
Therefore this "taint" is meant for a different Holy purpose. Namely, to show how much the good Gods hate evil and how we should be unyielding towards even the smallest fraction of evil in our lives.
We are all tainted by even the smallest of sins. Yes even a Holy warrior such as I sin. Hence we have rites of penance to atone for our sins. Yet as imperfect a person as I is permitted to walk the streets of Kohlingen.
Am I better than my good tiefling friend? No I am not. Is he somehow more wicked than I? No he is not! We are both as good as we can be and eschew evil as much as our good God’s give us the strength and wisdom to do so.
In this I an imperfect knight demonstrates that the good Gods are always merciful to the repentant while my good tiefling friend demonstrates that the Good Gods will not tolerate even the appearnce of evil in our lives.
Kohlingen is meant to be not just a Holy City in our mortal condition but also a symbol that some day there will be a world without evil, crying or tears where no manner of evil is found. It is meant to point us to that day.
Good tieflings and all other good persons of “tainted blood” the Triadic Lords, Bahamut and all good Gods have willed for now that we together must show the world that we all must live good and holy lives that will not make a place for evil. Good lives that point to a day when good’s redemptive power will culminate in a time when all sin, and evil will be gone.
On that day there will be no more need for this symbolism that some have bickered over. On that day the law it self will change (just as laws always do) for there will be no taint, no sin, no evil. In that day there will be a new Holy Kohlingen. A Holy Kohlingen welcoming all who are good and holy.
Until that day of Good’s ultimate triumph we must carry this small burden of symbolisim while making accomodation without the walls of Kohlingen for those of good and pureheart who may not enter it.
I will provide assistance to any of good heart where my Lord Tyr sends me be it within or without the gates of our present Kohlingen based upon its laws and my faith.
Such is my determination of this matter.
Sir Justin Fairfax, Triadic Knight
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robocop
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Posted: Sat, Jan 15 2011, 13:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
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A young woman passes by the postered wall, expecting some sort of blackbuard of the city, but no, she raises an eyebrow as she realises all these posts are a cascade of replies and arguments to one single topic. While she merely flicks through the different posts one message catches her attention particulary. It is the note of the knight, intrigued by the so called Catechism of the Sword.
She heads out to the temple of the Triad's Light to learn more.
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Estara
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Posted: Mon, Jan 17 2011, 13:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Justin,
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain yourself. I enjoyed reading your challenges of your own claims and seeing where it took you. I have a few questions for you, if you would continue to answer. I wouldn't mind discussing this in person as well.
-- Where in any God's dogma of The Triad (or Bahamut) does it say that these individuals are Tainted-- meaning, that their very presence as a species or race or hybrid blood taints the cobblestones that they walk upon or the people that they touch?
-- When, as you say, we reach this supposed "perfect world," are you insinuating that those of "tainted" blood will be redeemed? Or are you saying that they as a whole are obliterated and no longer an issue that we will have to deal with?
-Samantha
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Kal Sar
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Posted: Mon, Jan 17 2011, 23:19 PM |
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Joined: 19 May 2008
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Samantha, As servant of Tyr and knight of the Triad I am happy to answer questions of my faith. Where is it written in the doctrines of Bahamut, the Triad or the good Gods for that I direct you to the priests as well to the sages. What I know was handed down to me by my teachers as I said, Quote: This belief has been formed by the experience of those who have gone before as given to them as an insight from the gods or so it is claimed. Some say it comes from ancient “unearthed arcana” that tieflings and others descended from such evil outsiders’ blood carry the heritage of that evil blood within them. To me in my faith this makes sense even though I have not personally read such ancient texts, because I know that certain traits among human families are passed on such as hair color because of the blood of grandparents. Then does it not stand to reason that more than mere horns may have been passed on just as a son may inherit the short temper of his father as well as the color of his hair? Yet, while I have the hair color of my grandfather or father I do not carry his sins any more than he does mine. If I inherit his temper I need not give into it. We each carry our own sins and our own righteous acts. Therefore just as it is evident that all mortal beings carry the characteristics of their forebearers' blood then I believe as a mortal being the tiefling must carry characteristics of all sides of his lineage. Each of us must carry the burdens and advantages of the mortal frame we have inherited. Be it a strong body or a weak one. Be it a tiefling, human, elf, dwarf, hin or dragonkin. Let us therefore, exercise our wills, appetites and bodies for good relying on our good Gods to strengthen as they provide to each of us according to our needs. As for your second question you appear to miss what many miss. All who have witnessed the miracle of a divine raising or resurrection rejoice to have their love one returned to them just as I hope to one day hold my beloved. Yet we would all do well to meditate on the miracle itself. A mortal shell lays empty of the soul. Lies there as a dead body, rotting and decaying when miraculously our loved one returns and the mortal shall is revived. This demonstrates that our present mortal body is not our eternal one. For our mortal shells are just that mortal and meant for destruction. Even a resurected loved one is given but a temporary mortal body that will some day die. What is mortal cannot be eternal. So in the ultimate sense the tiefling and my human body are both “obliterated” including the blood within them. For together we shall stand as the “Redeemed” from this mortal world. Judged as "Redeemed" to stand before the good Gods in our new “bodies” that have been fashioned for us. As a mortal I will serve my Lord Tyr until my mortal frame will fail just as the good Gods have decreed it. Then I shall go to my reward and wait for my tiefling friend unless he has preceded me in which case he will welcome me as I would have him. May the Triad bless you in your search for understanding. Sir Justin Fairfax
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drahgon
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Posted: Tue, Jan 18 2011, 0:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009 Location: Idaho
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The argument comes to nature against nurture... However nature is about change so it can change, nurture can be a catalyst for that change. When you were born, all you had were your basic perceptions, you learned by seeing, smelling, touching, hearing. The only difference between us is appearance and the experiences we have had while growing, and what we took away from that experience. If chromatic kin see that not everyone wishes to kill or outcast them, some will change. Some will try to deceive, some manipulate, some will even realize that there is more to live than the hatred they have been taught. Is it not worth the risk to save those we can? Help bring them to a peaceful path?
Vick Bross, Faithful of Lathander
_________________ Keelah Se'lai
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Kal Sar
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Posted: Tue, Jan 18 2011, 3:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 May 2008
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Good servant of Lathander, I agree we should risk saving those who stray and stumble as they strive to be redeemed into good's path or as a Lathandaran might say "Reborn". I encourage you to reread my first letter for you will see I have addressed your good point already.
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Estara
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Posted: Tue, Jan 18 2011, 21:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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Justin,
Thank you again for your responses, however your answer to my first question was incomplete. I'm not sure how to go about asking anyone for a more specific answer, because sadly, I don't think those I'm asking the questions to even understand the specifics themselves. It's not only about whether or not these individuals are Tainted or not-- but how that Taint can transfer and what the worry is about them walking through the Holy City? I wouldn't mind an answer of "I'm prejudiced against them." but I have yet to hear that from any Triadic Knight. I will repeat: I am not asking that any laws be changed that individuals be allowed to live in Kohlinge, but simply that we are respectful enough to give someone safe passage if a situation warrants it or that we will not let someone or something die on our watch that is not proven to be evil.
As for the second question, I am not denying that I am missing something but your explanation still did nothing to illuminate it for me. Could you perhaps lay it out in simpler terms? Are you attempting to say that we will destroy the physical bodies of these beings but their souls are still intact? Do you think that damaging a physical body does no damage to the soul?
-Samantha
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Kal Sar
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Posted: Wed, Jan 19 2011, 1:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 19 May 2008
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Good Samantha, It is somewhat odd that my answer which is that there is a symbolism at work here is some how understood by you to mean there is some great "taint" in a tiefling that "taints" the world around them. I know of no such teaching. I do know that it is taught that they have "tainted" blood that predisposes them to the temptation to do evil. It is well known that I as a knight have escorted both evil and good tieflings out of Kohlingen and the city as far as I know suffered no ill effects from their presence. This is why I believe the Good Gods have a symbolic demonstration of their divine truths at work in this that we would do well to consider rather than imagining rare cases to justify setting imagery aside. Now to answer the question you didn't ask me namely: Quote: ...but simply that we are respectful enough to give someone safe passage if a situation warrants it or that we will not let someone or something die on our watch that is not proven to be evil. We are called to do good and others such as I have said "We will gladly provide aid, and protection outside of Kohlingen." This some find unsatisfying just as you have for you add "if the situation warrants it." Pray tell do you for see some time in the future when there will cease to be an outside, outside of Kohlingen? I make sport of you here. If there ceases to be an outside then obviously the need for such imagery also ceases and we will throw open wide the gates of Kohlingen and welcome the good and repentent of all races. This of course is extreme and unrealistic. More realistic though would be that of my good tiefling friend being hunted and chased by an overwhelming number of Banites. In this I would come to his aid throw open the gates and trust in my Lord's mercy and the rites of penance should I have judged the situation wrongly. Notice that in this I rely on applying the "Edge of Justice" siding with mercy to temper the laws of judgement to act justly while also applying the "Edge of Faith" based on my beliefs and my reason. In this I rely on the principle embodied by the saying "Feed the starving lest they die while you pray the blessing." For life and death place upon us the need to do Good to save the innocent lest we disappoint teh good Gods we serve. This I hope satisfies you since you were not looking for simple passage or living within the city but looked for life and death situations. Now as for the second question I am surprised that the point that we are all mortal is taken by you to entertain even the possibility that we would obliterate the righteous good be they a tiefling or other mortal. Quote: As for the second question, I am not denying that I am missing something but your explanation still did nothing to illuminate it for me. Could you perhaps lay it out in simpler terms? Are you attempting to say that we will destroy the physical bodies of these beings but their souls are still intact? Do you think that damaging a physical body does no damage to the soul? The good tiefling and I both will be among the redeemed. Both of us will no longer have mortal bodies to hinder us. I look forward to that day for I most definitely have no desire to extend my mortal shell beyond the Holy purpose decreed for all mortals. That mortal purpose being to live good lives and then to die. Death does no harm to a good soul any more than the rebirth of a butterfly from its previous body. Therefore, understand good Samantha that all our mortal bodies including our blood will perish either by mortal death or divine transformation for we are all meant for more than this mortal existance else there would be no afterlife. So I hope you can see we will as guardians of Kohlingen do our duty to protect our citizens, the city or the Holy imagery it represents. We will do this in a way that will maintain all these while holding to the tenets of our faith. In this we recognise that our life of faith is a journey as we explore and learn how to follow our Good Gods more perfectly. May these answers aid you in your search for wisdom, Sir Justin Fairfax
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