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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 15:35 PM 

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Came across this "epic" loot the other day:

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Maybe it's just me, but - doesn't this seem a bit underpowered for epic gear? I mean, sure - NEP at 15 is nice, but the incredibly common and relatively cheap potion runs at CL10, and apparently there is one in Khem at CL 15 anyway - so it's basically saving you maybe 1k a rest, if you even need to use it.

As for the camouflage - there are potions sold at shops in the module which give the same effect, as well as items - one of which is sold in a faction shop - which cast the effect 1/day. And if not there are still the occasional enterprising Druids/Rangers around who take Brew Potion.

Might I suggest Mass Camouflage in addition to/instead of regular Camo, and possibly more uses per day for either ability? Mass Camo is actually a bit harder to get on items, since it pretty much comes down to having a PC make them. That would make the item actually worth it. For comparison: Hunter's Sense has infinite Clair and 3 castings of a level 6 spell of significant utility.

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Yimmi
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 15:46 PM 

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Hmm I have to admit that it might sound a bit under the edge in contrast to other epic gear...

Ill wait to see what the more balance-wise people have to say tho'

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Raua
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 16:03 PM 

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Because we were talking about this on discord:

Camo/Mass Camo have essentially the same duration at 10 turns/Level (which is actually really good)--But the problem is both of them only have a single cast-spell item property that we could build with.

Toolset limitations mean that Regular Camo is only available at a CL of 5, which is actually a pretty good duration.
Mass Camo is only available at a CL of 13, which is a very very good duration, and an AOE.

And yes, Garlic-Flavored Wine is essentially the same as the NEP that this item gives. But the real appeal of spell items like these is the fact that you don't have to stock up on consumables if you have them.

TBH, theres a number of spell widget "clickies" that use this as an excuse to be kinda meh.
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Personally speaking (as in, my opinion alone), I'd just bump the spell uses/day up and keep the properties otherwise the same.

I wouldn't even mind Infinite Camo, personally. Or instead: 1-2x/day mass camo.-- And this is because of the Hunter's sense getting infinite Clairvoyance/Clairaudience uses a day. (Comparatively low duration means higher maintenance, but still effectively infinite duration. Also it boosts both detection stats versus Mass/Camo only boosting one.



I'm glad you offered a constructive solution, that's important! ^_^

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 16:28 PM 

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I would definitely agree that there is an appeal in 1/day items that cover certain consumables - for example, Orb of Unlocked Secrets is nice (and I think Sanctuary Cloak does something similar) - because the only other reliable source of imp invis is wands, or an unstackable hard-to-find item (Dust of Disappearance). But camo and bubbly potions are both easily acquired and conveniently stack up to 10, and frankly having this item doesn't leave me inclined to toss away the 50-odd bubbly potions I have stashed away.

That said. When you lay it out like that, Mass Camo 1/day would be a pretty neat addition if only because of its scarcity - right now you pretty much need to have a druid wand crafter and wands do have a measure of scarcity to them.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 19:12 PM 

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(Related)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=90133

(Similar)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=90083

According to some people, those are like, the best items on the server, hands down.
--

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the item itself, but in how they are acquired. These items shouldn't be in the epic loot bin.

- They could either be sold in some epic-like shops (abyss)
- Traded for invasion tokens
- Handed in events as consolation prices
- Dropped by some non-epic bosses from a different loot-table (or even a specific new non-epic boss)

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 17 2020, 21:55 PM 

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I still disagree that this should be sold in regular shop or be dropped by regular bosses.

I would be okay with upping the using of camo to either 2 or 3 use a day.

Alas alone the neg energy protection (15) which is essentially a full rest period is incredibly useful for any non cleric and a huge relief on potions. Stong enough that it WAS removed from regular shops when it was once put in by accident because it fell under the supervision radar when a new shop was added several years ago and removed again for that reason. So if not an epic item with the involving rarity, it would be removed entirely then and left for DC requests.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 0:24 AM 

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Regarding the previous thread on this: It's interesting that in the past the item sold highly but that was more a consequence of wild currency inflation and collector's value, rather than actual utility. And I do agree that not all epics should be equal or useful to everyone - except I'm in the "target market" for this one (stealth PC) and I still find it a bit lacklustre. I struggle to think of anyone else who would really want one when the effects are so common.

In light of that I'd probably argue for its removal from the epic bin, even with a couple extra uses of Camo (it already runs for 50 turns, and as I said was very easy to find if actually needed for a build). I agree that as a shop item it wouldn't work because while 1 at epic drop rarity isn't great, being able to buy several (although a hotkey/inventory nightmare) would completely remove the need for bubblies at all, unless it was set at a price so high no one would want to buy it... which kind of defeats the purpose.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 0:28 AM 



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If it was more than 15, I'd say "yeah, cool, strong item". But, there's two limiting factors: the average DM event is far longer (hell, even the average hunting trip is longer) so it doesn't even give you a full rest-to-rest buff. People don't rest every 15 minutes. Well, lowbies do, but this item is supposedly geared at 30s. They generally fall into one of two camps: either you self-supply buffs, and thus need to rest every time they run out, or you're a meleer, and tend to run without buffs. Or, at least, far fewer. Bull's, Cat's, Maybe endurance, FW, MB, and possibly NEP, depending on location. Maybe toss an ImpInvis and/or haste on there, if you have an easy source of those. There's a trend in there: cheap buffs, and (generally) ones you don't have to apply often. The last two being an exception, because they're basically the best buffs on the server.
Each of the first potions costs, at most, 2k. That means a "full run" would cost you 10k if we're talking *extremely* generously here. That's a single item drop.
Assuming you were to run Fire Giants twice every day, assuming you rest once (15 minutes for a full run clearing everything means you're barely cutting it close on the best builds in one run) that Yowler's Eye saves you at most 8k a day, assuming Garlic Flavored Wine costs 2k, and I believe it is around that direction. After 125 days of doing this, you have saved 1 million gold on NEPs.

Of course, that's ignoring the fact that that rest also meant you had to re-apply bulls, cats and endurance, thus upping the cost of the entire trip. You actually lost gold from that, in the end.
For that reason, you'll generally want to stock more than one, or more potions, especially for DM events. Relying on a single cast a day doesn't work, and when potions stack to 10 anyway, the only thing that item does is reduce potion runs. A convenience? Yes. But not one worth a couple million gold, which is where epics are generally at.

The second problem is that the same power item is sold in a shop. The epic item doesn't offer anything new. Hunter's sense? I believe the only item with either spell on a non-equipped item, and also no potions for those two spells. +5 gear? Epics only. Orb of unlocked Shadows? Barring the dust, which is pretty spacious, the only way to get ImpInvis on a non-equpped item. Epics, generally, are items that aren't simply found somewhere else. They're supposed to be special items that make your character stronger beyond what is normally possible from shops. And the Yowler's Eye... If it would at least eliminate the need for potions, okay. But... a single use of NEP? Meh.


Upping the Camo uses, imo, wouldn't even really help. 50 minutes already is long enough. How much longer are you planning on going without a rest? Personally, I'd think the same about Mass Camo... 50 minutes, versus 130, does it even really matter, at that point? Odds are, you'll have rested far before that anyway...


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 1:19 AM 

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15 is already the max you can do on an item and longer than a bubbly potion, which is 10.

It is also not meant to completely replace potions but to lower their need.

I honestly do not understand the argument. The item is maybe not the most powerful in the bin but it IS useful. Sure it is more useful to some than for others, but it does have a general use for almost everyone with the (15) neg energy except for clerics. The camo is an added bonus for sneakers who do not have much else in the epic bin.

Not all epic items need to be equally powerful. They never have been. We already removed all the "crap weapons" from the epic bin so really, the odds of you getting a decent item is already a multitude higher. So your chances of even gettign this item are fairly low, getting it multiple times even lower.

I mean, you could argue the same about the flame weapon item. You can buy scrolls for even cheaper than bubbly potions and more than one class can cast it. Yet people like it. I see the benefit of it working with BoT there since the scrolls do not. Alas the djinn ones also work with BoT.

I guess if the camo increase is no use I suppose we could up the neg energy to 2x to cover 2 rest periods which should last almost any hunting trip. I do not really count 5 hr DM plots here as nothing lasts that long :P

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 7:53 AM 

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I do understand that not everything needs to be on par with everything else, but on the scale the Yowler's Eye still stands out as unusually unimpressive. Even the Wyrmshadow Reliquary does offer something that can't be easily replicated - not only does it not require UMD, but it allows you to BoT the damage to another elemental type. All Yowler's Eye does at the moment is very slightly reduce potion consumption.

I know we're a long way from the days of trueforged clubs and light hammers, and ultimately I don't know what would be the best improvement for balance (I still think Mass Camo would be nice). 2 uses of NEP is an improvement, after all, and it certainly doesn't seem to make it OP.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 16:22 PM 

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I am not really a fan of adding mass camo to it on top as that seems a bit much overall on one trinket to cover for skills not needed on items. Especially if you combine it witht he mantle of stealth. It is why you do not find these spells on any other items eithers aside on one or two with very limited overall uses, non of them uses per day. That was a decision made by the team long ago to not add those as per day also on top of camo already.

P.S. I am not saying previous DM stances cannot be changed. Just saying what the so far stance was and why.

I mean, +10 free of a useful skill not needed on gear is imho pretty darn good. Especially with that long use and no drawback of using gear space. I mean any mage would kill for a free +10 concentration not needed on gear? or warrior with +10 discipline? And the free neg energy resist which is great in almost all dungeons is also not to laugh at imho.

That said, in the end, I do not mind wether we make it 2x day neg energy prot or we simply remove it from the epic bin (alas it won't go into a regular store then and will just be removed). I just feel that you underestimate the usefulness and that this is more a "modern" interpretation of it not being useful. I know a few years ago the old playerbase paid millions and millions and traded super rare items in hope to get hands on one of the old yowler eyes or Kelemvor symbols and this is both in one. Alas, times change and if the common judgement is you don't want it in there we can remove it.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 16:52 PM 

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Made a small edit! So pick your poison. Either we up the neg energy use to 2 (which brings it duration wise on par with the TS of the hunters sense, a bit longer even) or we take it out!

We can also do 2x day neg energy 15 and 2xday camo. Sure camo lasts forever and you may never need that second use.. but maybe you are in that 4 hr DM plot afterall one day and then it's there! XD

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 17:04 PM 

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I say 2/day and don't remove it. It's really nice to have, in my opinion. Every one of my characters who's had one uses it.

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Mahtan
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 17:05 PM 

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Just to add-in. I have one of the originals, which is only Camo (5) 1xday and it used to just be on a random boss similar to the Forge Master and how you gained the forge rings. Or the dude outside of Wharftown whose name escapes me for his Bone Sheild (Xsomethingblah)

I use the camo nearly every rest, and it stacks with Mass Camo. Greatly freeing up Hide gear. As Brandrik, I can fully remove a Mantle of Stealth in favor of another Cloak without needing to suffer my hide skill.

I would prefer they are not removed honestly if that is in the cards. Are random secret bosses no longer something we practice? Perhaps it can be integrated that way in a means that is not farmable.

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Raua
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 17:07 PM 

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Raua wrote:
Personally speaking (as in, my opinion alone), I'd just bump the spell uses/day up and keep the properties otherwise the same.


Seems like this is the general consensus.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 18 2020, 17:18 PM 

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Upping both properties to 2xday it is then, unless someone of the team objects in the next 48 hrs.

Once it is done you can change your existing ones with a DM. Unless we install a replacement script but that may be more effort than it's worth. I doubt there are 'that' many out there.

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Baden Ironblood
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 25 2020, 15:38 PM 

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I don't object. I want one. I loved the Kelemvorite Scale with the 15 duration. Sad when it was removed. If the original poster does not want his Yowler, I'll trade for it. *smile*

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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 26 2020, 13:28 PM 

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The Orb of Unlocked Secrets needs another Imp Invis daily usage too! :) But I have always liked this Epic. Real handy to us non magic folk.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 02 2020, 13:18 PM 

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I've got one of the originals.

You all are lucky you never had to kill the Yowler to get its eye first. 90% concealment... it took ages.

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