I propose we open up Shadow Jump to be taught by any one who already has learned / knows Shadow Jump.

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I hate to be THAT girl... but learning/knowing something doesn't equate being able to teach it.

You can sit in school and learn how to do calculus, that doesn't immediately mean you're able to teach calculus... the standard rule for as long as I've known is that a Master SD can teach (So level 10 SD or higher).

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Because it only happens in Cordor Kohlingen Bendir.

Then lvl =/= equate being able to teach it IMHO! You can be a master artist and not be able to teach others how to draw.

Correlation is not causation.

You are now a teacher at the academy with Effie aren't you?

The lack of being able to fulfill it is frustrating and I think making it so that those who've learned it can teach it would help fix this and well hey improve amia as a whole from my perspective. What exactly does it hurt changing it so people who have gone through it and learned the ropes being able to teach it any different than some one with a few more lvls teaching it? They would still have to learn it and understand it to get it in the first place. I didn't enjoy the nature of the academy rp because it came off as a small group of people, with shared interests who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them. It made the whole thing feel like if you weren't liked by this group for xyz then sucks to be you! 6 lvls is NOT and easy investment in the first place. It is 20% of a build!Most folks who go 4 will take 6 for hips.

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So, what I'm reading, is that characters, who only know off-hand knowledge of certain skills, should be able to 'teach' another character with enough clarity, that they can go off and explore and 'master' these skills on their own..




..because you didn't like certain RP?

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I'm done. Goodbye.

I'll just say that I'd be disappointed if the standards we've upheld for Shadowdancers class investment to get the privilege and access to such RP as teaching or learning Umbran Arts and even joining in to develop many more things is suddenly lowered or removed.

We've always had low lvl SDs. And through RP we worked to inspire them IC to get more SD levels. And it worked. We made interesting lore and RP that rewards class investment and I'd very much like it to stay that way out of respect for those of us who committed to the SD class since the beginning.

[This here was not intended to come across as older SDs being better than anyone else. Only to emphasize that teaching and gaining access to SJ is a privilege of the class with proper investment and to please respect that. Also that I would be sad to see that changed to being less of something we invest in for the sake of getting a bonus special ability that the class in NWN normally never gets. I am sorry for how poorly this came across.]

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It's not 'off hand knowledge' you have to know it and understand it to be able to do it.

I honestly have about 7 SD characters all different concepts and builds.
Only 2 happen to have Shadow jump. Neither had a very 'easy' time of attaining it either. I am very passionate and obsessive as a personality so when I pick something up I tend to obsess over it for a while. My love for Shadow Dancers isn't going away any time soon. On my second character that has SJ they aren't fully leveled because SJ makes it harder to survive when you get hit and are very squishy. By the time I reached 10 SD there was just so much in the way of opposition for the character trying to pursue roleplay towards furthering SD I just stopped playing the character, because of [current SD PCs in play at that time] holding such ic contention against the character I was playing. There was and is no alternative to pursuing in depth roleplay about SD stuff out side the academy.

And it's not be cause of '..because you didn't like certain RP?'

It's because of the exclusivity that was built up around it. It feels too forced to seek some one out OOC or through a very specific one way street ( the academy) and that absolutely ruins the IC view point to me and makes me think it's just a game and this is put here because of the mechanical reasons.

It wasn't just a one off poor experience I had with it either, It has been numerous experiences that have built up over the years. [ This isn't to say all my experiences with Academy PC's were bad- I actually very much enjoyed the RP I had with Derrin, Shade, Cyrene, and a few others]

For some characters, sure; it makes sense to go to a school and learn how to do it there but for others that's not really the best IC rout to take and feels forced.

Why should the academy be the only option? I have a PC designed to make it not the only option. And the reason being is they were persecuted ic by some one who had issues with my characters or me and that is what lead them to be so defiance ic towards the academy.

I have tried NUMEROUS times icly IG to find a teacher out side the academy for a few of my PC's to no avail. The pattern I've noticed is those that take more than 6 lvls of SD tend to end up as teachers at the academy. The SD's I know that don't teach at the academy but are still very skilled and knowledgeable from an IN CHARACTER stand point don't have 10 lvls of SD.

And the very few pcs I have run in to that have 10 sd lvls or more who DON'T teach at the academy don't have as much grasp as say my 8th lvl sd character.

I'm not trying to discredit previous players and their rp. I've tried to make my own advancements with Shadow dancing and creation of Lore but that was pushed off to the side due to OOC development changes.


Shadow dancer by the book gains Shadow Jump as a Supernatural Ability

Shadow Jump (Su): At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. (A 6th-level shadowdancer who jumps 32 feet cannot jump again until the next day.)

The fluff for SD is as follows from the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5

SHADOWDANCEROperating in the border between light and darkness, shadow-dancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious andunknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonderwhen met.Rogues, bards, and monks make excellent shadowdancers. Fight-ers, barbarians, rangers, and paladins also find that shadowdancerabilities allow them to strike at their opponents with surprise andskill. Wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid shadowdancers employ thedefensive capabilities inherent in the prestige class to allow them tocast their spells from safety and move away quickly. Despite their linkwith shadows and trickery, shadowdancers are as often good as evil.Shadowdancers often work in troupes, never staying in oneplace too long. Some use their abilities to entertain. Others oper-ate as thieves, using their abilities to infiltrate past defenses andCHAPTER 6:CHARACTERSA red wizard
dupe others. All shadowdancer troupes maintain an aura of mys-tery among the common folk, who never know whether to thinkwell or ill of them.Hit Die:d8.RequirementsToqualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill allthe following criteria.Skills: MoveSilently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance)5 ranks.Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.Class SkillsThe shadowdancer’s class skills (and the key ability for e

My very first character here was a shadow dancer. I love Shadow Dancers and I usually aim to play one at table top. So can you imagine my bewilderment when I was told ic if I wanted to do cool shadow dancer stuff I to had to be taught to me? And on top of that the people I was directed to behaved like a secret society several of them essential lying telling my PC they were 'too good' for an apprentice or being reject over and over by several of them because they didn't like my pc? Some of the PC's my PC met then were absolutely elitist and there was no way around learning it with out finding some one in the academy to teach you. I feel the teaching aspect arose from the need to put a limitation of a strong mechanical benefit that could be easily be abused and to teach people how it needed to be used. and form there those who wanted to become masters of the art ran with it and made it their own. So much so in some instances it locked others out of it.

I'm not asking for the limitations to be removed, I'm asking for them to be loosened so roleplay cane happen more naturally between characters and open up more avenues of roleplay and learning and pursue of shadow dancing.

I'm not talking about changing the ruling on Umbran Arts either. I'm solely discussing Shadow Jump.
Umbran Arts is off topic for this thread I made.

I think the 10 SD to teach SJ Bottlenecks rp towards the academy. I think this isn't really fair as I've seen pc's with control of the academy push their bias and use it as a sort of control and denying such a strong mechanical benefit to those they just didn't like for one reason or another at the time.

I get the appeal of working at the academy and being a fancy instructor. I get the idealized want for the prestige of being really good at a skill and wanting to flex it. Every one wants to be able to prove their really good at something and get enjoyment out of that. But when that gets to the point of imposing standards on others to a point of unfair contention I think something needs to change. I think what I'm suggesting just reflects the original fluff stated about shadow dancers in the dungeon master's guide.


Think about how cool it would be for two thief character and a wizard to learn togetehr whilst building a mini heist group? now THAT would we something I'd LOVE to be apart of. It's a whole new sort fo dynamic to role play and approaches the same topic from a different light.

'Shadowdancers often work in troupes, never staying in one place too long. Some use their abilities to entertain. Others operate as thieves, using their abilities to infiltrate past defenses and ect'

By this notion I think the academy is very -strange- seeing as even groups of SD's don't really stay in one spot for too long.

How about I open the conversation to a different rout? What would you all suggest be SOME alternatives to academy rp?Let me hear how creative you all are!

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Let me make something clear since this has become clear it's less about teaching and more about disliking the Academy. [Yeah this was terribly put. I wanted to reply back to the mention of disliking the Academy had exclusively locked Shadow Jump behind the Academy, which here I poorly expressed is not the case and anyone can teach outside the Academy, the Academy only is the in-game rule representation since SDs are so drastically different here than NWN and DnD]

The Academy does not set the standards of must be 10 SD to be a Master and train others. It was built around those things and upholds them in an IC way as mechanics or abilities changed with the class over the years.

There has been -many- alternative teaching groups and even schools who have come and gone. They just did not stay committed. The Three Steps has had many people come and go. It's rare to keep all the same people long there.

I have also run Shadow Troupes here on the server. Trust me, just because you haven't seen them, been included in them, or were unable to start one doesn't mean they do not happen. They are inclusive as well, but they have standards and themes that will not bend for the character, the character will learn and mold to it. Of the characters that achieved nearly everything we offer, not a single one is the same. We all still are rather unique from one another but have that experience and know how that we'd expect from one another. So there is no arguing that we must be copies of eachother, or all of the same mind.

Having standards is not automatically uninclusive or mean and I really want to emphasize that.

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And you don't have to have a master insignia or even an instructor's insignia like Effie does to teach. Level 10 SD signifies you are a master of that art, from an experience perspective. As long as your SD is level 10, you can ICly teach SJ. Your character doesn't have to be part of the Three Steps, or have even walked into the Academy to do that.

It's like a level prerequisite, kinda like how the RDDs get wings at a certain level. It's meant to inspire RP, not hinder it. Though I do agree, it's not off hand knowledge, if a character fails to jump correctly, it spells out baaaadd news, but SJ becomes a reflex after a while, just like flying does.

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Because it only happens in Cordor Kohlingen Bendir.

If I understand this correctly, the contention lies in the fact that a character can shadow jump before SD 10, but can't then explain to another person how they're doing it. There is no additional RP training required to get Greater SJ (which only gives it more uses), so I can understand why it's weird.

I know it's just "been the way" for a long time, but is there an actual IC reason for the restriction? Beyond just a prestige/precedent factor?

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IC it represents the Dancer knows what they are doing well enough to safely teach another. Having greater jump is required it teach lesser. We used to have more training to get greater jump at a time. But was changed down the line to make life easier. Since you got greater if you learned at 10. But if you learned at say 6, it used to be required we refresh and train more for greater. Since lesser jump is sloppy, the Dancer picked up bad habits, whatever flavor we want for lesser jump to need some refreshing before greater. But that was too tedious and eventually it was just given at the right level.

So a non master trying to pass their lesser jump off as mastered to a real 10+ SD would be noticeable to the master. I know it's no one's fault that greater jump turned to something auto given when you have the lesser version, but that was what was done before.

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My old main, Cynthia, used to teach SJ as well, and was never an instructor at the Academy. She barely even spent time there as a student after she learned SJ at level 6, and was one of the ones who had to take a "refresher" course to gain the greater jump widget when it was implemented.

As far as "Why SD 10, and not earlier?" is concerned, I think it boils down to simply having taken the time and effort to not just to learn how to shadowjump, but to get it down to a science (reflected mechanically by taking those additional 6 levels rather than stopping at SD 4). A RL equivalent might something like... you learn basic science in high school, so you know in general how the world and the universe work, can hold a conversation about stars and galaxies and such with others with the same level of knowledge - but trying to teach the subject to someone who's never learned the same things would be difficult at best. Now, compare that to someone with a degree in astrophysics who understands the subject from years of study, practice, testing theories, and such? They're far more likely to be able to teach someone without even basic knowledge on the subject because instead of just learning it, they've mastered it.

Would it be cool to have more non-academy instructors? Yes. Especially since second- and thirdhand accounts have been given that, if no instructor were to be found, a DM-controlled Academy instructor would instruct people to re-seed it, it gives a certain exclusivity to the Academy. It doesn't change the fact that there is very little incentive to go SD beyond level 6. Greater Shadow Jump and the Umbran Arts are pretty much the only incentive. Lowering these requirements would diminish the reason to go past level 6, and change SD back to the HiPS class, which it arguably already is.

From an IC standpoint, 10 represents mastery of something. Imagine, as a layman, explaining to someone how to cook a pufferfish. There's a cahnce you'll explain it correctly. There's a chance the student will also understand it correctly. And the the student tries his newly-cooked pufferfish... and someone did something wrong. Student dies. Welcome to the world of laymen explaining things.

I think that's a fair explanation for why it's set at 10.

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I disagree.

I'm NOT saying Greater jump should be given for lower than 10 sd. This was not brought up in anything I said.

People who know shadow jump should be able to show others how it's done.

If we use robbi's example with fish then lesser jump SD's would still have a chance of killing them selves or messing it up. Which just isn't a thing. I believe it works much more as a stamina thing that is built up over time and deals with more practice and attunment to the shadows; which to me, makes sense.

If you want to look at it from a time perspective, Sd's with lesser jump can still do 10 jumps.... they need to rest between however. It's an exhausting ability. Those who invested more lvls and time in to the art can do it for extended periods of time. They have the stamina to do more.

The idea you're telling some one who can do it they aren't good at it sounds to me like you're dictating their roleplay and putting the control on others that if they want to be good they need X amount of lvls to be considered good. I can make a whole slew of arguments as to why less is more when executing an idea or concept through class lvls. Execution or dedication to the method of the art should be in the player's hands and what their dice rolls say. Because some one doesn't have 10 sd =/= they have bad habits or are sloppy. Think about it. It is a dangerous thing if done incorrectly I would imagine some characters would wish to ensure it was done correctly each and every time. But perhaps not have the stamina to do it as much as higher lvl'd sd's.

I say it stands to reason that characters who have learned shadow jump ( the lesser version) should be able to teach it to others. And so far nothing debated here compels me to believe other wise.

I'm still hoping to hear some alternative solutions from my fellow players to this dilemma.

I think there's a lot of stuff that's been geared ic towards the academy and incentives given to make people want to take more SD lvls.There's shops in the academy, being able to do more tricks and cool stuff, being able to SJ more often. I just disagree that this aspect of role play should be forced to the degree it is and think it holds too much control. You already have so much. And from a player and in character view it doesn't really make sence why /not/.

It's say only the best of the best can do this. And to be considered the best of the best you need more lvls. Which I disagree with. It literally tells people they aren't good enough with out looking at the role play involved when form an IC stand point it make sense it should be able to be done this way. You need to know the limitations, you need to know the risks, and you need to know how it's done. You need ALL of that down before you can do it on your own. This stands to reason you should be able to impart this knowledge on others.

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Greater Jump is only mentioned in saying that it is required to teach lesser, I do not beleive anyone thinks you suggested to lower the lvl access to it.



It's really not just a stamina thing. The actual SJ feat gives you more distance as well with SD levels and that has been required in multiple SD themed events before. So the method or way you are jumping would ICly make sense to improve as you gained more SD levels. We can't say just any lvls at all build stamina. Failing Shadow Jumps is indeed a thing, there has been characters even killed from it. Just because the risks and the like of it are not RPed by the Dancer, does not mean they are not present for a DM to throw out at careless Dancer in an event.



You are right, much of the things are geared around to the Academy because that is the oldest standing area of SD RP and we have worked very hard to be that. But let me inform you are as well that the stores used to not be in the Academy at all. They used to be hidden around the Shadow Plane, but over time and IC renovations, we eventually got them into the Academy as NPCs for the school. Could they be moved out of the Academy again? Maybe? But they would need to be ICly given opportunity elsewhere as we gave them to be there. Which realistically would need another established school to be made, and has been attempted several times and is always allowed.

We have also had a time we did include a more variety of Shadey folks. We had an entire class for Shadow Mages and using Shadowstuff which was open for anyone to come to and they could teach it provided that was the type of mage they were with or without SD levels. We tried that and while it had a decent run in the beginning, it seemed it was not the best direction for the Academy and much of that RP has gone away leaving behind the Dancers as we are working towards more things to happen there.

Speaking of that, the idea currently is a player-run "Alt Beginnings" for Academy themed RP. Living in the halls, learning from the PC Instructors, maybe some random DMs possessing NPCs, Players can learn everything along the way IC as the whole theme will focus only on Shadowdancer Academy living and Shadowscape and it can be as crazy as our players want to let it get as we go through entry classes to promoting instructors and teaching secret arts. Not sure how to go about rewarding XP, unless it is random at DMs discretion. But we can even have something akin to Teachers Aids for the SDs who are not 10+ but want to have some teaching RP. If that is something players would like sometime soon, let me know in a PM. This can be a great time to ICly be part of the changes needed for the Academy to be more functional for the current server.

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I know very well about distances in Table top. That's what Higher sd lvls SHOULD give you is the ability to go greater distances. And I think it's great to incorporate that in to DM events! It lets the higher lvl sd's do their thing.

Why would there / have/ to be a competing school at all?

I'm not saying the school should be dismantled or destroyed. It's just rp is just so bottle necked there are no other real opportunity for natural rp to lead else where. I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I as a player don't hate the academy. I have a single character who does but that's entirely IC.

I as a player see a problem and have trouble with looking for other avenues of roleplay regarding LSJ. How long has the academy stood empty? shouldn't lack of PC involvement lead to the shop keepers looking to go else where to sell their wares if they were told to only sell to so and so who has such and such id badge of accomplishment given through the academy NPCS? How long is an NPC going to sit around with out making gold when they are a shop keeper? None of this really concerns what I'm trying to bring up.

The problem I have is it doesn't make sense IC. And It would solve a big frustration of not being able to ICly find PCs who have the demands of 10 lvls of SD to teach LSJ.

Let's look at something else that is dangerous to preform and requires training IC.
Flight. Flight needs to be taught by some one who knows it already and understands the mechanics of how to achieve flight. It can be taught by any one who seemingly knows it.

Sadly we don't have a greater Flight feet , but Flight inst attached to any lvl's.

Currently between the two!


Similarities Between Flight And LSJ:
It's dangerous to preform and can kill you IC if something goes wrong.
Requires IC training with RP.
Required an understanding of the mechanics, and the dangers.
Requires practice to be able to do it.
Are both 5 or less times per-day.
Offers amazing mechanical benefit of a movement feat that lets you move vast spaces across the map.
Both have pvp and area rules you need to be aware of OOC.


Differences Between Flight And LSJ:
LSJ IC Requires Attunement to the shadow plane.
Flight IC Requires Building muscle and maintaining peek physical form
LSJ Requires at least 4lvls of SD.
You need an SD of lvl 10 to teach you LSJ.
Any one who knows flight can teach flight.
There is no Flight school.
There is a Shadow-dancing school.

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as one of the dudes who helped make shadow jump exist on the server, i agree w/ pretty much everything maht has said here.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

There's nothing stopping a 10 SD who isn't a part of the Academy to teach it.

There's nothing stopping a character building beyond 6 SD to potentially teach it.

Also, if you have been unsuccessful at finding a PC to teach it, you can also poke the DM team for it.

Shadow Jump is an addition to the class, not a requirement.

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How Manny sd's that are 10 + aren't apart of the academy? Just curious~

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Rico isn't a part of the academy at this point, and he's 20 SD.

The real question is simply how many 10+ SDs are even around.

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I want to add one thing here, likely only something PS will get, since I'm going to respect privacy.

Your RL hobby, PS... the one you take time with, that /requires/ time to practice and learn. The same methodology applies to teaching Shadow Jump.

Think about it.... a 1st, or even a 4th year still has 'bad habbits', and is 'sloppy', even though they've been studying hard and consistently for /years/. And those same 2 examples can't hold a candle to their ability to teach the intricacies that qualified teacher can.

Also, Kamina makes a great point in saying that SJ is not a requirement of the class, but only an addition. It's my experience that far too many players think that SJ is the pinnacle of the class, and I think it's so wrong.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

Mash is lvl 10, she been to the academy once and never returned. I would not call her a member.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.