That approaching this as a drow specific issue when there is multiple disparities in the ecl system affecting many other races, and that they should be addressed as a whole, is logical.

I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of a precedent leading to other rulings on other cases. Think of it as that. If the argument can be made with Drow, widely held to be a very powerful race by some, a rather weak one by others, then what to do with the others ones should be clearer whatever the the outcome is, if we plan to go "across the board" down the road.

And if you're not familiar with that idea, then maybe the idea of "biting off more than you can chew" is more clear. Small bites. Baby steps. Let's figure out the basics of the pros and cons before we go trying to simultaneously figure them out in relation to a dozen different permutations.

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I don't agree. I think that if balance is the objective here and we are looking at this objectively, then we have to address all races, not just one. There is no balance in "balancing" only one race.

This thread pertains to drow ECL, however it does touch on the larger issue of ECL in general (as my comments have made clear, all ECL is terribad). +2 ECL races are the most shafted (there are three +2 ECL races and six +1 ECL races), Drow are near the top of that, and given they are the most played of the +2 ECL races it is only logical that people focus on them.

Cut the arguments on semantics, this goes for any side of the issue. There will be no more warnings on this. Keep the discussion on the topic at hand and do not argue for the sake of arguing. That's not what IA is for.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

My discussion was on the topic at hand.

Can we also cut the disparaging memes, too? (from one of your earlier posts replying to Maglorine, in case you were wondering)

ECL is not terribad. It's just not made for dealing with a level cap environment. That said, it is necessary to keep races balanced. If we let every race have 30 levels, those with the most racial perks would consistently be on the top of the heap. You keep going back to posting cookie cutter builds that work on other races while ignoring that the a race has things it is better than other races at. Going against the grain and playing something the race is not built for is supposed to be tough. It's supposed to be weaker than a race built for it.

I don't mind adding +1 saves and maybe +1 AB to the drow, but removing the ECL goes too far the other direction. Dark Immolation has a rather fair assessment. Start small. Give them some of the things the missing two levels prevents them from having (again, what Tormak posted in the first reply to this thread) and maybe Lucky for the saves. +1 AB is also not going to go too far overboard. Adding class levels will.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

If people don't stop with the underhanded jabs and the inflammatory remarks, I'm going to put this thread on cooldown.

I'm new here and don't have much say in the matter of Drow having never played one myself or have interacted with many in combat. My general understanding is that this is a balance issue coming from the fact that ECL isn't made for NWN but that said I've had to deal with an LA many times in PnP games. I like to play Gnolls which have a +2 LA, I lose two character levels (Normally it's seen to get the great +4 Str and +2 Con with -2's to Int and Cha) but I just play it to play as one of my favorite races in the game. Yes a human is going to outclass me and be more flexible any day of the week (That's what humans do!) but I get to play something unique and interesting besides a person you see walking around every day in your real life.

To give my two cents I'd say that the +1 to AB would be normal as from the Humanoid levels they're handled as +1/2 AB per level (pnp wise). Removing the ECL all together is a real problem and would likely cause a LOT more balancing to go in, I play kobolds and although I appreciate the removal of the -2 con on top of the -4 str I don't believe Alertness (A feat pretty much only a shifter would take) exactly makes up for it. Regardless I play my little scaly guys and gals because I adore the roleplay that comes with it, as I'm sure anyone who chooses those races with more negatives than positives do.

Again I apologize if this is not constructive but I wanted to at least put my voice out there.

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The Kobold Squad!-
Zerithy- Joy loving Silver.
Krang- Level headed Monk.
Levex Laraek- Aspiring Magi.
Vyth Kepsek "Ice-Fang"- Nail of Auril.

This is my first time legitimately posting in this section of the forum. So I will toss in what I would like to say..

Removing drow LA will result in wanting LA removed from other races. Unfortunately this in the end would kill off the default races unless the once LA races got re-adjusted stats. There would be no point in playing a human when you can play something with better stats while maintaining maximum level. I do play races with LA and I did play drow here and there. I never really cared about that missing one or two levels in the end as I am still capable of making a build fit for fighting and role play. I do know the non-LA races will have an advantage in terms of level but they would have no advantage what so ever if I had no LA.

Removing level adjustment for particular races would be a real problem without change.

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Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne Ryrathrak - Red Dragon Disciple, Bronze Dragon Slayer
May'rinna D'vilrath - Underdarker and Noble House Sorceress