Cant you add some like "lower class drow" and present drow change to "higher class" (or any other name) and have lower class with smaller/no bonuses and no ECL, and leave higher class as it is. Those who want to play drow but are complaining about ECL could play drow.

I think that those bonuses can be used greatly if you are skilled enough builder and work with it. Just the same way as you won't pick certain subraces for certain builds, because they just do NOT work together. Yeah RP, bla bla bla... if you cared that much about RP you would not discuss ECL this long.

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Zendaer Amattis
Torgon Crimsonshade
Khalid Athanalo
CET time zone

Actually I am a Forum Moderator, and Devs are de facto moderators of Improving Amia in any case (unless we changed that).

No one is saying that they don't play drow cause of the +2 ECL, I'm not sure where you got that idea. We're stating, logically, that the +2 ECL (and really any ECL) gimps a character unnecessarily. If you wish to contribute to IA discussion, please do so with more than just 'I don't think this is important'. That is not constructive.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Unless of course, my opinion is this isn't that important and that is how many others talking about this topic feel when the same ever so squeeky wheels are not dominating the conversation and demanding grease. In short, the ecl +2 is far from a serious issue on amia. The player base isn't slowly going away because drow can't use hellball. People aren't having issues with progressing the plot because the "bonuses from losing 2 levels are not enough." In short my opinion and one shared by many of our less than vociferously loud players is as valid as those of you that post every other post back and forth. Because all the reposting of the same mechanical arguments just creates a bunch of static and buzz around a few very loud players concerns. Most people, don't care. Most people think time is better spent elsewhere. Most people aren't as repetitive and loud about their own opinions as most here.

That you wish to dominate a discussion by sheer mass, does not invalidate those of the opinion that this discussion is ultimately meaningless. If your biggest hurdle to playing a very lore heavy race is mechanics, then perhaps you should try something that is more mechanically comfortable for you? Drow have got along thus far just fine and balance is a never ending dragon to chase, as this already diverging thread has shown.

Just because I think this is much ado about nothing, doesn't mean what I am saying is not constructive. It's just not constructing things along a path you'd like for it to take.

Your opinions of what is or is not a valid concerns are irrelevant, this is specifically a topic ON THIS SUBJECT. If you have nothing to add apart from just being against the discussion at all then you are adding less than nothing.

If you don't care about a subject in IA then simply don't comments on it. It is literally "Improving Amia" saying "that is a waste to discuss changing" is the antithesis of that goal.

No. I'm adding my opinion that all this isn't nearly as important as some are placing value on and that perhaps I'd wish to see the same level of voracity given to this mechanical debate go into actual roleplay. You are welcome not to agree with me. But that does not invalidate my opinion or the fact I can say it here. You have a right to carry on and on in mechanical detail why your view point is right, even if I don't agree. And every discussion has the option of Agree, Disagree, or abstain. If you present an idea for discussion, its entirely valid for someone else to say that the concern over the mechanical issue is unwarranted and distracting from what the primary focus of playing drow (or any race) should be.

Okay so we had a small discussion on the DM team and most agree that the 2 ECL is not quite giving enough compromise but 2 ECL not not be quite sufficient either. We can't feasibly remove the ECL unless we redo the whole subrace system and drow are basically just elves with another subtype.

My suggestion was the following and so far all thought that would be okay to do:

1. Lower the prequisites for Helball, we wanted to do that for a while.

2. Give drow "Lucky" as a free feat so they get an extra +1 unisaves that does not count to the cap and that noone could have taken as feat on leveling. That would also make up for the loss of the unisaves you'd get on lvl 29 normally.

3. We'd look at the other stuff which drow cannot meet the prequisites on and see if we can something there.


I realize this is probably not what most want because most just want the ECL gone which we can't really "just do" for the several reasons above and that would basically strip all of the class the makes the class what it is as race.

I hope maybe you like the suggestion anyways. I feel it at least would be a nice cover of the gap that is missing to up it from the ECL 1.5 it technically is worth but cannot exist to the 2 it is.

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Can we maybe skip the personal snipes? I'm not being pedantic, I'm just disagreeing with you.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Okay. and you did that. Please stop repeating it. Thank you.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Svirfneblin +3 Dodge AC is utterly useless against anything other than physical combat. Should we adjust that?

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

There is no need to be snide and in your case there isn't anything constructive coming out of this. I repeated what I was saying because I was being replied to and wanted to make myself clear. Don't be rude to people just because they are giving clarity.

I'm not being rude or snide. I am telling you, as a DM: Thank you for your opinion, it is noted, and we are going to continue to discuss Drow ECL in here. Thank you for your input in IA.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

A question: Why not have it be a DC thing for drow? a few DC's and roleplay from the drow would all that would be needed from a maxed drow and POOF leto hellball and such in. Wouldn't that work?

As mentioned above we meant to reduce the prequisite for hellball for a while anyways. So this shouldn't be an issue anymore then. The prequ is rediculously high for what the spell does in comparison to other epic spells anyways.


Any so far opinion on my other suggestion? Those on the DM team who pariticpated in the discussion liked it. I'd like to hear the opinion of the players too though.

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All those work fine to me, honestly.

...Although as a side nudge could kobolds get a little something..? Currently the -2 to str compaired to halfling's already -2 kinda leaves no return in any way other then the awareness feat (Which no one would rightly take unless going shifter), unless i'm missing something that makes up for it..? anything small really that helps..!

The changes seem modest enough.

I say that as someone who thinks the argument that Drow are at a major disadvantage are overblown. I've never played a Drow but I have played several Svirfs including to Max levels and the SR is quite useful and valuable (please see The1Kobras remarks on the previous page).

It's useful to compare those 2 underdark races that both have +2 ECL and the same Racial SR. Drow have a +8 ability score advantage and a much wider span of viable builds. The Svirf bonuses aren't even in a primary ability score of their favored class! Svirfs get +3 Dodge AC and a +1 Uni Saves in the proposed scheme in exchange.

Personally, I'd take the 8 ability points in a heartbeat. I'd take them if you picked them at random.

I assume the lowered requirements for Hellball would apply to all +2 ECL races?

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Does this discussion apply to all ECL races since they all suffer the same level penalties as drow?

Edit: got ninja'd above but yes I was thinking mainly of Svifs and strongheart halflings. Both miss reaching the same level 29, 30 feats and goodies.

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aaegus battlehammer™

cloak rockhewer

murtaugh gunn

ECL actually prohibits a good number of class combinations, which means they have a smaller number of viable builds. They also only get +6 (and -2 for a net +4) for abilities. However the pluses are not cohesive to any really useful builds except for a small number; it really doesn't make sense when you look at the numbers and such.

Also, please no lesser drow. That's just ... weird and really nutty.

And yeah, this really is about all ECL races, because they all get shafted in ways that ECL/LA wasn't meant to do.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Drow:
Racial Traits: Abilities: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma;
+6 -2 = +4

Svirfneblin:
Racial traits: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma
+4 -8 = -4

Net difference = 8

You missed the context of my statement. This ability deficit means that builds which are feasible for Drow are not for Svirfs, hence my point. I'm not arguing that ECL doesn't restrict choices, I'm saying that within that group Drow isn't the most restrictive.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Oooh roger, I see that now. Twas the phrasing which made my brain derp, hah.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Svirfs are a bit worse off, they probably should be fixed too really. It's just no one talks about it because they're so rarely played, except when people try to cheese dat +2 wis. Str and con penalty hurts most classes though that cha penalty is only really as bad as a -2 to be fair, since it's the first step in the penalty which makes it unusable for the few builds requiring it (and they're not the only ones without a bonus in their favoured class's prime attribute... see: female drow).



Well to reiterate, I disagree that removing ECL and rebalancing the racial bonuses, to paraphrase, strips the race of what it is that makes it. The rich culture of drow and their history on the server make that impossible. It's nice that you're throwing in Lucky, but that's not the same as the build flex of an extra two levels, 1 or 2 epic feats (depending on build) and a point of AB. All of which remains more valuable than 39 SR. So +2 dex, -2 con, +2 will save vs spells, darkvision, Light sensitivity and all the standard elf crap should be fine, IMO. The designers seemed to think so. It's on par with moon elf, another race which has persisted in popularity despite being subpar compared to humans. This is probably the best compromise for drow players without upsetting others concerned about imbalance, provided that this subrace is added as an alternative for drow players (caster PCs relying on int and cha bonuses may think twice) and that there are options for a smooth transition into it.



Not sure if you're addressing my suggestion but if so plz elaborate.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I'm gonna guess because it's messy option to explain in lore. This was all I could find on "lesser drow" and it looks like a way to balance out super low level parties and level adjusted races. It's not an actual race by itself. The suggestion of adding a "lesser drow" subrace misconstrues the actual idea of the thing and is more like making up a new subrace out of nothing. Why are some Drow lesser? Where did they come from? Does it affect their standing in the culture? These are questions we'd have to answer with no lore foundation.

More importantly it's not exactly solving the issue being put forth. The proposal is that something should be done to the race, as it is, to balance it up to what the +2 ECL entails OR balance it up to what a non-ECL race feels like. Those are the measuring sticks, in my mind. Either make the ECL feel worth it or make the race feel like it's not missing out for those 2 levels. Stripping the race of its qualities or proposing a new subrace doesn't really address the original statement that the Drow race that is currently in game needs some adjustment. You just add a weird new mutant subtype to the roster and the original race's inequalities haven't been addressed at all.



Not one way or another, but I felt it should be said: the vast majority of hazards you face in the server are physical attacks, at least in PvM. Think about how many times your PC gets swung at versus how many individual magical attacks they endure. Spells are pretty incidental until you get to higher-end dungeons. Even so, Dodge AC works against things like ranged touch attacks as well, which includes monster abilities and yes, even some spells.

Edit: My bad, the excerpt says Lesser variants can be used as their own subrace, but if so, they should be used across the board as a replacement for the original. Likely to avoid those lore issues I was talking about, I imagine.

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I was about to comment on this fact specifically in reference to "lesser" race variants, in that they are not meant to be used alongside the base version. That said the entire "lesser" mechanics are rather terrible in the first place as they are no longer an at all lore accurate representation (unless you change your lore).

As for opinions on the proposed changes while nice to try to balance power levels they don't really address a key part of the issue that drow (and frankly all ecl +2 races) have which is that it rather gimps a lot of build flexibility (With nothing to do with lore but just the mechanics of ECL). The proposed changes are also just a rising tide to Drow power, evenly effecting all classes while still leaving the gap between the "good" and "bad" builds the same because nothing about the builds would change at all.

As I said, I believe that adjusting Drow (and all +2 ecl races) down to +1's and balancing for it is the best way to go to fix the core issues.

You missed the point of my reply. I'm saying that every race has something they're good at and good against.

To put it bluntly, people need to deal with it and stop feeling like they have to be good against everything.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

No, I understood what you were going for. I just wanted to point out that saying that Dodge AC is useless against nothing but physical attacks was factually wrong and is good for a number of things in comparison to SR, your point aside. That's why I said "not one way or the other."

From what I gather, I don't think anyone here is suggesting they have to be good against everything; that's a bit dismissive, even if you don't believe the race needs any further adjustment. It's the same way a person might suggest a particular class doesn't live up to the level of other classes in a general sense. Them saying that doesn't mean they feel they need to be "good against everything" so much as they want to be good or maybe better at what they do. That's a bit harder to narrow down for a race, but the aim is the same. ECL, even in our system, is ideally a form of balancing. When that balancing is too back-ended, it can start to feel like a penalty. So what you may interpret as a player asking for more something for nothing is really more like them asking the scale to be re-balanced, because it feels unequal at the moment.

And that's really the goal of this discussion, to find out where that balance lies. To find if we're already there or not, and if not, how to get to where we need to be. There is a time a place where the "people want to be good at/against everything" argument is warranted(and it's usually evident to most longtime players before its even said). But I don't think this is one of them.

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Lowering the requirement for Hellball by a rank in Spellcraft seems easy enough. In comparison to the other epic spells, it's rare to see it use nowadays. Or at least rarer than Amia's heyday when you couldn't cross the street without seeing one.

Giving them Luck of Heroes seems easy enough. However, I think many more were feeling the ache from the missing AB(1-2 depending on if you could take something like Epic Prowess with lv 30) more than they were the Saves. The AB loss compounds with light-sensitivity as well. Again, it's really hard to equate what exactly a build is missing out on because it's always a mixture of AB, CL, feats, and class abilities which vary with each one. But the saves are a good step, and maybe an extra AB? In a way that's saying "We can't give you everything you get from missing 2 levels, but we can at least treat you like a lv 30 PC at max." I.E. every Drow has 2 Levels in "Drow" which doesn't net them any extra class abilities or feats(their racial bonuses are the replacement), but also doesn't further penalize them for not being able to take those same levels they miss out on.

The class abilities balanced towards reaching 28-30 will have to be looked at individually, but I think most were listed at the beginning of this topic. But if we are eventually going to have a (separate)discussion about how we want ECL to work for us, we may want to hold off on that until it's done, as to not have to change a slew of class features, then perhaps have to change them back again later.

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I agree with Dark Immolation regarding addressing this all at the same time of the ECL discussion.

I should just note that I'm against filling the race with fluff just so we can say we tried to balance it. That just means we can't fix it later on as easily. Same goes for any balance, decision really.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

ssssssssss

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bad man

What if a Lolthite has a change of heart and converts to Eilistraee and bolts for the surface? Do they have to lose two levels for changing "races"? What if a surface drow lapses and goes back the the Underdark? What about those drow who try to have it both ways and frequent both the surface and L'Obsul?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

ssssssssss

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bad man

Whoa there, Rift. No need to stomp all over a pretty strong aspect of drow roleplay. I'm an advocate for a separate Surface Drow type subrace, but my opinion is more toward taking the SR and goodies away from the surface drow and removing the ECL. That would require the RP/history of having limited to no access to the UD for a very long time, though.

If the +2 ECL as it currently stands needs fixed, though, then my ideas certainly take a back-burner to fixing what we already have.

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First off, Rift you are being incredibly disparaging, further that is not a lore accurate to any degree anyway.

And Jes, taking away SR and ECL would be rather odd lore wise as a way to balance. Although I agree with that idea, which is why I would myself just (along with upping day penalties) add in a surface adaptation feat to lower/remove those penalties. Having it take a feat would balance it and provide a difference balance wise on the surface and UD for Drow who have and have not taken it. As on the surface it would be the difference of the penalties and in the UD the difference a usable feat essentially.

Well, I don't know a lick about balancing, but I was more going for the lore-approach, what with a lot of the abilities drow get coming from exposure to the meth crystals in the UD - or so I've been told!

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Jes' solution is sensible from a balance perspective.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Faerzress, which is a good thought but that would seem to be some miscommunication with the effects of Adamantine items who's effect fade on the surface (due to adamantine's close relationship to Faerzress) However Drow SR and the effects of Faerzress overexpose are canonically long term mutations in the race itself and do not fade on the surface. Daylight adaption is lore documented however which is why I base so much of my mechanical advice on that point.

The only part I really thought we should hold off on was the changing of class features, because that affects a lot more things than the drow subrace and entails more work. Doing a few things for the race itself in the meantime is fine and I would imagine a bit easier, because we can always switch back to the current version of the Drow bonuses script if we need to in the future.

The more I think about it, the more I find that +1 AB +1 Saves for Drow is a good place to start, before we tinker with more penalties here, less penalties there, more widgets, whatever. It's been said a couple of different ways, but how ECL works in PnP is tied with the fact there is no level cap. It's like a weight that keeps you from advancing faster than non-ECL races because of your racial bonuses. It doesn't outright stop you from advancing or even keep you from reaching the same level as anyone else or even surpassing them if you somehow do earn the XP to get there. It's goal is to keep you relatively equal in ability, not destination. Nonetheless, a level cap is a necessity of our or any PW server. So in my reasoning, what we may call ECL doesn't necessarily have to look like it does in PnP. I would instead suggest that we treat it, at least in Drow's situation, like levels in a Monstrous class in NWN.

I think if we treat it as Drow already have two "levels" of their subrace, the penalty will start feeling like an adjustment, as it should. So you're an ECL Race which means you miss out on feats. Okay. That's what your racial bonuses are there to smooth over. Also, in most areas you'll suffer a penalty to AB 50% of the time. Well... that's the lore and the Race does get some good benefits, so that's about right I guess. Oh, and since you can't mechanically reach level 30, you are also actually a lv 28 PC at max which means you're further missing an AB and Saves from epic progression... That's more or less where I'm coming from in my thought process. The first two penalties are intentional, the last(the missing AB and Saves) are a consequence of how we implement them.

Taking an IC standpoint, I would say that's a more reasonable thing. A non-ECL race gets all their feats from a necessity to develop them. A Drow, or any other race that gets ECL, isn't as pressured to for they already have natural abilities to rely on. It doesn't mean Drow are just crappier characters by default as might be inferred by their current situation. Rather they don't have any need to develop as many tricks and such(feats and skills) because there isn't as much necessity for them. But at base standard, without feats and skills, they're just as capable. What they get on top of that is dressing and hopefully balanced between them. I hope that's making sense. Like, a level 30 Human and a "level 30" Drow would both have a base 25 AB and the saves of a level 30 PC. The human gets 2 "extra" feats by virtue of mechanically reaching level 30. That's his racial perk, as it were. The Drow's racial abilities are of course his racial perk, his "extra feats", but he's still a level 30 PC in all other respects.

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TL;DR : Giving Drow +1 AB and Saves effectively simulates them having 2 Racial levels that give them their racial abilities instead of class abilities, skills, or feats. Thus, they are not further penalized for only being able to reach level 28 mechanically.

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In theory, but how do you reconcile their inability to build as effectively as non ECL races?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

They can build just as effectively if they play to the race's strengths.

For example, an aasimar can be a dex/int assassin, but will he be as good at it as a tiefling? No, of course not. An aasimar is geared toward the holy classes: paladin and cleric - and will excel at those.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Well said, Dark Immolation. An easily followed argument, and a logical conclusion.

That's not even what I was talking about. Your argument can be applied to why a Wood Elf and Moon Elf aren't geared towards the same classes.

I said non-ECL races, not race with different stat boosts. Drow get a -2 class level penalty and (just like all of the races that suffer from our terribly done ECL system) cannot be built the same. It's like saying an ECL race is unable to be as skillful as a non-ECL race; which is not the case at all.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Well even if they are changed , then every single drow would need a redue since stats and abilities would be changed.. Just imagine the work for changing something like that :/

That isnt really true, anything done to balance can in this case be done through adding aspects (even the negatives) or removing build limitations like ecl which you could implement without requiring any rebuilds or the like.

I'm kind of with you, DI, and kind of hesitant. On the one hand, I can completely buy the argument that drow's complement of goodies isn't worth a whole +2 ECL and therefore they should get an extra tweak to bring them up to an even playing field. But on the other, it sounds like you're saying here:


... that giving them these quasi-racial levels would on its own mostly negate the drawbacks of any ECL at all. That a max-level drow would then in essence have 28 character levels, two "racial levels" from which I assume would be where we'd say they get their +1 atk, +1 saves, their SR, and the +2 Will vs spells which they already get), and then *also* +2 to three useful stats. That still kind of pings my alarm bells I mentioned earlier, about swinging the balance pendulum too far in the compensatory direction, and making a max level drow stronger than a max level non-ECL race, rather than merely leveling the field.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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Considering where Drow live, why shouldn't they be hardier than surface races?

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

If anything that would still likely keep Drow slightly underpowered. D.I.'s suggested change you're referencing would ONLY be compensating for the fact that in levels 29 and 30 you get +1 ab and +1 saves (as well as a feat and two HD). Things that Drow do not get as they are mechanically 28th level characters. And it still doesn't even address the loss of build options.

I agree, but drow don't get levels 29 and 30. I guess what I'm asking is, why *should* drow get the benefits of levels they don't technically have, while still keeping all the benefits of the racial bonuses that (in theory!) are already meant to compensate for the loss of those 2 levels? You're compensating for the +2 ECL twice over, then.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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Because they are not meant to compensate for ECL depriving them of those two levels since Level Adjustment which is what they are meant to have does not cause that. What that is is an unintended consequence of ECL being more of an actual ECL modifier.


Drow are currently MISTAKENLY balanced due to the thought that LA and ECL were the same or comparable, as they are not the current adjustments simply aren't accurate to the intended effects and as such are not balanced as intended. All of which is somewhat moot anyway as D&D and NWN are balanced differently and further as LA is also a purely mechanical balance and not reflective of any lore elements (Drow don't canonically "level" slower).



I think a better way to do this though is to discuss perceived value of the positives and negatives.
+2 Dex
+2 Int
+2 Cha
SR=39(at max)
Darkvision
Saving Throw Bonus: +2 Will Saves versus Spells and Spell-like Abilities
Spell-like Ability: Darkness

-2 Con
-1 AB
-1 Saves
-2HD
-1 Feat (-2 comparing to human based races)
Light Sensitivity
Capped at 28 mechanical class levels and the things that come with those levels. so (20 levels pre epic but on 8 post epic)


I personally think a lot of it balances out with each other. Around a net 0 in terms of value (give or take across classes) maybe slightly lower at a net -0.5, especially if taking into account the slower leveling time and the like. Which admittedly is not huge. In fact a couple races I valuate lower, the major issue though is many of the more played races come in a few points above a net 0 (notably with the human based races and Universal sub-races).

This also means with Amia's population it gets worse with numbers, with a random group purely made of Drow (which tends to be 90% of who Drow group with) actually tending to come in a fair bit lower than almost any random grouping of other races by several points.

Effective Character Level (ECL) = Hit Dice (HD) + Lever Adjustment (LA). Currently nwn's ECL calculation is just Class1 + Class2 or 0 + Class3 or 0, but it'd be easy to just add LA ontop of that since the LA is stored as localdata on the player character. What effects that'd have would probably be that at level 1 with a LA of 2 you'd be level 3, meaning you'd need the same amount of XP to go from 1 to 2 that you'd need to go from 3 to 4.

Havent tested that though, but I assume thats what'd happen since at level 1 with a LA of 2 you'd be level 3 for all intents and purposes concerning character level. Which means the nwscript layer that adds in LA has to be fixed/undone otherwise it'd be done twice as GetHitDice would return the proper ECL.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

I also agree with what was said earlier... this should only be reconsidered while they rebalance the entirety of the subrace system. There are other subraces that even get more of a shaft and to push the agenda of one subrace as if its issues are unique (and imo arguable if existing) just seems... disingenuous.

You've made it very clear how disingenuous you find these suggestions, Hideaway. I don't think anyone has mistaken your stance as otherwise. However, it's not on anyone here to convince you of the sincerity of the claim. Only the logic of it. If you can't be swayed by that, it's fine. Really, it is. But to continuously say you don't think the suggestions are coming from an honest place is feeling a bit disparaging; and even so it adds nothing to your point or the discussion otherwise, except to say that because you suspect some agenda, to disregard the topic. I think that's the main thing people are finding fault with. I have a bit umbrage with it, considering I'm trying to be particularly objective in how I approach this. Point out my fallacies, correct my math, cool, but no need to question my or anyone's motives just because you can't wrap your head around the perspective. Hell, 90% of the time, I state my biases straight up. We get it. But like it or not, the discussion is being had. Even if they were coming from a bad place, so what? If we're all talking facts, numbers, and ideas here, like most of us are, the truth of it will get sorted out regardless of intentions. That's the goal of most debates and discussions. You're free to feel it's as much a waste of time or whatever as you want, but there are clearly folk here who find it worthwhile to discuss. And so, it will continue to be, your incredulity noted.

I and some others have suggested that there should be a discussion on ECL in general, which would address other subraces. But as per the topic, I am only suggesting what I think for Drow at the moment. Discussing one topic doesn't mean that there aren't other equally important ones. It means only to say "one step at a time." Don't feel this is totally directed at you, however; this pattern happens from time to time on many topics, and I've honestly wanted speak on it for a while.

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Quasi-levels, as you call it, aren't negating most of the drawbacks of any ECL. Those, I think as most Drow players would agree, are the class abilities, bonus feats, skills, class levels(with it, bonus CL on spellcaster things like dispeling, SR, damage dice), and so on. The missing AB and Saves are significant, but not so significant as all of that. Even so my suggestion is, like I said, a simulation, neglecting the bonus to health, bonus certain class abilities, and HD effects where applicable. But towards the point of whether or not that is overcompensating, the fact is that a non-ECL race get more epic feats in addition the bonuses that come with those extra actual class levels; epic feats that can amount to +2 AC(Armor Skin) and +2 Ab(EWF), or +10 to a Skill and an additional Epic Summon, or any number of possibilities. And yes, ECL builds can get those feats, but they can't get as many. Getting one means forgoing another, scrimping and planning what is truly essential. Level 30 is a crucial part in a many, many, many builds, so much so I would almost think of it as a second Quick to Master, except it is a benefit all non-ECL races reap. Drow missing out out on that is balance enough--to me--with the missing AB and Saves being a shot in the foot to a runner who would otherwise be just about as capable as his counterpart.

As I said before, the purpose of ECL is to balance the ability to progress, not necessarily the hard numbers you end up with. It only works so long as the PCs can continue to progress, which is an issue for us because our characters cannot and do not progress infinitely. Let alone for a moment that D&D is centered, developed, what have you, around a small team of PCs pulling in the same direction, and not many individuals pulling on their own in parallel or even in opposing directions as a PW server would have them. ECL is more about regulating their progression than saying your apple can square off against my orange at all stages. For instance, it's not there to make the argument that a Lv 28 Drow is equal to a Lv 30 Human by the ECL rules. Only that they are both relatively capable of progressing at the same rate: the Human with the whole of its AB, feats, class abilities, etc, and the Drow by (hopefully) utilizing its other bonuses to skirt by the same challenges. Again, I hope that makes as much sense as it does to me. It's like a speed limiter on a vehicle, it's not to keep you from getting somewhere, it's to regular the speed at which you approach it.

Let's not confuse things. This is my interpretation, but it's not like this idea, ECL and all of it, was totally solved and shored up in D&D before we ever took our crack at it. Researching, I've found some sources claim it's mainly for determining how fast you gain XP(which it does by acting like you have more levels than do you), others saying that it is indeed a measurement of power(although fully admitting that it is a rough one and has more than a few inequalities). Yes. In theory, yes, a level 10 Drow and a lv 12 Human should be equal (provided you are measuring "powers" as their ability to progress.) In theory, you should have as much reason to play a fighter as a wizard. In theory, Pun Pun is just a well managed Player Character like any other character. I think you can see where I'm going with this.... I don't worship at the altar of Gary Gygax. I play Amia, not D&D(anymore, at least). I have no problem being so bold as to think I can improve upon our Patron Saint of Nerd's work. Right now, I think as a first step, as a final step, or just a step in the right direction, this is what would work better for us, for Drow--and yes, maybe other ECL races should this line of logic hold over to them.

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