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Well the mages would still have the capability since they have access to the spell and the right CL. Though looking into it now, maybe that was incorrect. The shape just can't have more HD than your CL, so a younger dragon would be possible. Still, removing Dragon from scrolls would be good.

Alternatively, remove TS from scroll-Dragon or remove it from Shapechange-dragon altogether. You technically shouldn't get TS from a Shapechange spell anyways (even if you should, we can say you don't). Or, even, we can give a shapechange or somethign widget to the people with the gold/whatever dragons.

There's workarounds, just depends on what we want to do in the end.

Dragon shape is far less an issue, its higher level, more costly and its larger size drastically reduces its ability to be spammed as a way to shut down sneaks.
In fact I personally never even cared myself mechanics wise, as Dragon form from a scroll is easy enough to deal with, and even the more proper dragon forms still have trade-off in order to get them.

Also, addressing those higher level TS creatures/forms starts to get far more into balance which is (in my own view) far more problematic and less of an issue than the low level TS which is less of a balance problem and is what causes the most pain in the ass RP wise (And is in most cases inaccurate to lore anyway).

Either way, getting rid of the common low level TS, especially on Umber hulk, is I think something most can agree on regardless of opinions on the higher level variants.

Sphinx wrote:

This topic has recurred several times over the years and it has always ended up in an endless debate without any tangible effect on our world.

Can the DM team please vote on the removal of True Seeing from Umber Hulk forms at their earliest convenience? As I mentioned before, this issue should be addressed one step at a time.

Sphinx wrote:

This topic has recurred several times over the years and it has always ended up in an endless debate without any tangible effect on our world.

Can the DM team please vote on the removal of True Seeing from Umber Hulk forms at their earliest convenience? As I mentioned before, this issue should be addressed one step at a time.

Pretty much this.

I would much prefer to see a round-limit on TS on umberhulk. Either delayed activation or something along the lines of first 3 rounds of transformation are TS, then deteriorates to +spot/listen bonus

Sneak is inherently broken, if we're reducing ways to interact with a broken mechanic then some compensation ought to be thrown into the mix. Perhaps a mechanic that says if you're within [whisper distance] of PCs for longer than 2-3 rounds you are spotted.

If you want to detect sneaking people, invest in Spot or Listen like they've invested in Hide or Move Silently. It's a no-brainer. The scales shouldn't remain greatly tipped against sneakers in the equation if balance is our goal here.

Sphinx wrote:

If you want to detect sneaking people, invest in Spot or Listen like they've invested in Hide or Move Silently. It's a no-brainer. The scales shouldn't remain greatly tipped against sneakers in the equation if balance is our goal here.

Regardless of balance, current TS being so available just prevents that RP to a ridiculously massive degree. It is so pervasive and easy to acquire that most of that RP ends before it ever begins. And that just isn't very fun for anyone.

It still doesn't make sense that you can hide in the middle of a brightly lit room with no cover and no way of being found unless one of the people searching for you has super-trained eyesight or bat ears, something that wasn't a huge issue when umberhulk provides limited zone control (without combat efficacy). But I guess we can still hostile the server and throw down a glyph of warding. Or learn Alarm. So by all means I guess?

At any rate the people in favour aren't really addressing the arguments against it ("This action will have this effect, no proof necessary") but nobody really cares and very few people are even a bit uneasy about it, and to be fair there some good reasons to do it. So I guess just wait for DMs to get on it unless you want to repeat how much you want this for some reason.

serbiris wrote:

It still doesn't make sense that you can hide in the middle of a brightly lit room with no cover

It also make no sense to fight with two hander in one hand whilst wearing a tower shield. It also make no sense to cut through a full plate armor with longsword.

Let's not argue ad absurdum. TS is an abomination and it needs to go, and the umberhulk is a good start, since - as we've all already mentioned - it's something that anyone can get for a measly gold coin and turns level 30 epic sneak into a wank-on-a-stick.

Fun thing about the Umber Hulk is that while we can remove the TS from them, they are still an option to counter sneaks. By all means, remove bioware TS, but the creature still has its vibration sense, and thus can still be used to check a room for sneaking people unless they choose not to accept pnp spells. What will make that nice is it means people can still feel secure, but sneaks have means to counter the vibration sense, and even if they don't, the Umber Hulk player does not get clear vision, all it knows is that someone is there that they can not see.

Even if I were to give PnP consent in such a situation, a simple polymorph wouldn't be enough to thwart a sneak.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Sphinx wrote:

Even if I were to give PnP consent in such a situation, a simple polymorph wouldn't be enough to thwart a sneak.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Ahh, good catch. That aside, i'm sure there are creative ways people can secure a room, without the Bioware TS crutch. It will just take more creativity, which in the end is more fun for both parties!

If a sneak falls down, and nobody can see it, does it still make a sound?

Xenos wrote:

Ahh, good catch. That aside, i'm sure there are creative ways people can secure a room, without the Bioware TS crutch. It will just take more creativity, which in the end is more fun for both parties!

If a sneak falls down, and nobody can see it, does it still make a sound?

People often forget about the perfect use of caltrops strewn in front of trapdoors that lead to pits of woe.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm

Higher level spell and in NWN it doesn't give the option to change into an Umber hulk, but it DOES give access to a creatures' supernatural qualities and extraordinary but you lose your own supernatural.

serbiris wrote:

It still doesn't make sense that you can hide in the middle of a brightly lit room with no cover and no way of being found unless ....

It's stated that a SD doesn't need any sort of cover to remain unseen, so long as there are shadows present. I acknowledge that the only addresses half of your point, which remains valid.

and I can't help but agree on that point too. I just don't see a common ground around it.

Xenos wrote:

Ahh, good catch. That aside, i'm sure there are creative ways people can secure a room, without the Bioware TS crutch.

Without a DM present, I don't envision many sneaks willingly giving themselves up for RP methods of securing a room (such as say throwing flour into the air to see if it lands on any invisible shapes).

Maybe I'm just cynical, though.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Xenos wrote:

Ahh, good catch. That aside, i'm sure there are creative ways people can secure a room, without the Bioware TS crutch.

Without a DM present, I don't envision many sneaks willingly giving themselves up for RP methods of securing a room (such as say throwing flour into the air to see if it lands on any invisible shapes).

Maybe I'm just cynical, though.

If they want to ignore RP that's fine, there are IG means to check a room too. Cover the room in Snare Traps and set them to go off on anyone not in party. Caltrops and look for blood. So on so forth. If people don't want to let me use graceful RP tricks to find out if a room is secure, then i can use none graceful mechanical tricks. Though depending where you meet, its wont be up to the sneak, it will be up to the DM that supervises the sneak as it attempts to get past NPC guards.

We could just pass notes, in code, that we eat after reading.

I personally always tried to make a point to RP reaction to Umber Hulk's and their Tremorsense (in case any felt like RPing that) as there are several easy IC ways to avoid detection from it, including simply not touching the ground, or even just not moving at all.

Bioware TS

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