AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Okay so this is a topic, about starting a topic that lists some of the more common pnp spells or abilities that we often use, but require DM oversight. A few examples would be Wish, True Res and Vision. What i propose is we make a list these spells and skills that require DM oversight, and how they work here on Amia. This will help us as players better understand a more or less unspoken rule, as well as set a standard on how spells work for the DMs and players alike to reference.

Some things that come up are the XP cost. I have been charged 100 xp to cast vision, which in pnp or pre lvl cap is fine, but once you are at the lvl cap, 100 xp means i have to kill 100 things. So.. why charge XP for a spell, when XP is not a factor anymore at 30? Should i expect XP rewards for events to compensate? Can i burn DC to stock up on XP for the purpose of casting?

Legend Lore and Vision, we have our own standard of what is Legendary here, and it's not lvl 11, nor is it a max level PC even. So what is it? Epic monsters? Sure. Joe blow the fresh lvl 30? No. Obviously it won't be black and white, but setting some example of a standard here would help us as players know how the spells function in this setting. A bit about how vision actually plays out for the caster would be nice too, as the spell in the phb is a bit unclear, for me personally.

Well, making a list might be tough in general because there are quite a few PnP spells out there. Aside from the spells listed there, the spells that would generally alter or have a great impact on the module or NPCs require DM oversight. Thus you cannot cast "alter terrain" and then post a screeny of it, you need DM oversight.

As for legend lore, the spell description pretty much has it. Despite the term "legend" in the name, even a whisper, a rumor or a brief note in a hidden room can be considered as a "legend". The subject of the spell doesn't have to be "legendary" in the classical meaning of the word. That is something what a DM can easily determine when someone casts the spell.

It pretty clearly says Legendary is something of 11th level or higher, as well as the sorts of creatures such players would deal with, and the items they would use.

But some spells are more obvious, change weather, or using earth moving spells to alter the server are sort of self explanatory. How exactly Vision works is not, and can change from one DM to another to the point a player is not really sure what the spell does when casting it, which should not be the case. Slipping some of the more common spells into a list so players know would just be ideal. Mostly this could be done via cut/paste from the spells listing on say http://dndtools.pw/ with some points made clear for Amians. Heck, True Res usually costs a lvl here, but in PHB 3.5 its only 25,000 GP worth of diamonds.

Trying to define legendary is an exercise in futility, imo, because it's so heavily context dependent. Since it's a spell that always requires DM arbitration, a written down standard isn't really that helpful for the players: you're still only going to ge tthe information we give you.

So if a player casts Legend Lore on a weapon or player and it works under one DM, but not under another? Sure, we can ignore it as part of the game, or we can establish what Legendary means, even if it is only really known DM side because likely a ECL 30 is not a legendary person. Actually you can kind of reverse analyze that. Does a Dragon ping as Legendary? If so, the characters that would fight such a creature should as well. Rule for the spell used in reverse.

I hope you both, and others understand my goal here. It is frustrating to play a caster and not be sure how a spell is intended to work, from one event to another. I know there are variables with magic, but the hidden rules tied into some spells should be noted. Again pointing out True Res, as most DMs seem to require a level for payment as well as the diamond.

It is kind of a big project if taken all at once, perhaps a little bit at a time as things come up? But at the end of the day if people are not interested, then it is what it is.

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So if a player casts Legend Lore on a weapon or player and it works under one DM, but not under another?

This should not be occuring, due to DM communication. If it is, point the DMs at each other - we fix the issue. Ultimately this doesn't have much to do with defining "Legendary", which sitll can't be really done. It's not level 30's. It's not dragons. It's what we say it is, as the plot demands it. Legend Lore is a tool we can use as DMs to further the plot and dynamics of the RP occuring, and not simply a spell you cast to then learn everything about something.

Your example doesn't hold much water to me: If this particular dragon is Legendary, not everything it fights is necessarily legendary. Atellus, the Grand Inquisitor who manages to tear off its wing and send it fleeing, turning its wing into a heavily enchanted cloak, is legendary, though. Not the three knights that died.

Ed: I don't think a player or a character sohuld be obligated to know what Legend Lore willgive, or even if it will work. It's Divination magic, after all: You're casting it because you don't know.

That's true, a PC does not really have a concept of level, thus the thinking in that way is flawed. Further still not every other char level 30 (Or otherwise) can be measured appropriately. Is Tuomas Legendary? Maybe.. but to most people he is a gnome that makes dolls. So i will give you that one, that at the end of the day we do not really need to know. But that in itself is something we should know, yes? It is an example of a common used spell, that does not work as expected on Amia. In this case the fact that level is not a factor. "You will find out when you cast it." Yeah i suppose, but considering it takes 1d10 days to cast it, given basic information, i think it's fair to know not what it will do, but what it won't do, or at least that it works differently here.

So you've picked out a few parts to discuss, and thank you, but what about the concept? What do you think about the more obvious ones? True Res being the one, and simple. Needs a DM, and costs the caster a level. Is that written anywhere? Are we just supposed to assume our experienced clerics don't know, or have not written how taxing the spell is? Interesting idea that such things could just move by word of mouth and experimentation i suppose.

How about XP tax for spells? A level loss i get, but how about the, for example, 100 xp cost of Vision i spoke of before? Should i be requesting XP at the end of events to fuel these things? That would be cool, as there are a lot of spells and craftings that burn XP, almost a measure of what you can do, based upon the amount of XP fuel you have.

XP costs being a burden means the system is working as intended. Valerius is constantly having to re-earn his 30th level from spells and IC crafting costs and I wouldn't have it any other way.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

XP costs being a burden means the system is working as intended. Valerius is constantly having to re-earn his 30th level from spells and IC crafting costs and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I am 100% on board with paying XP costs for things just like PnP. The difference is, in PnP you don't hit a wall and stop getting xp. If i can not build xp like one might in PnP, why am i paying the XP price like one might in PnP? Now, i don't want farming goblins to be a viable way to build up XP for projects, but i would like to see XP rewards given to lvl 30s, if we are going to be expected to pay from this XP purse we can otherwise not keep filled. Should a character over tax themselves and drop a level, that is all well and good. But someone that manages their purse should not have to live on the lvl 29-30 back and forth.

True Res is explicitly in the spells section of the website, and has been for years. I was around for the discussion that got it added.

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True Resurrection
In order for a cleric to validly cast this spell, they must have a DM witness the casting, as well as pay a full level's worth of XP and 15 diamonds, or the monetary equivalent of 25000 gold. This can be modified if the DM overseeing the roleplay feels the need to.

I've always found the pnp side of stuff, especially interactions with DMs on the matter, to be extremely positive.

If I make a reasonable request ahead of time for my character to do some pnp stuff that they would have access to, I've always gotten a yes but naturally not knowing if it'd actually work or not as I had hoped. It's more of a "Sure! You can give it a shot." which is far better imho, because always in motion the future is.

I remember quite clearly the first time I got that opportunity, during the Ankh'remun questline and plot that Tormak and a few were overseeing, I requested permission for my cleric to cast an antimagic field because I had for some reason, got it in my head that it'd be a brilliant idea. Tormak said "Sure! Give it a shot" And when I did, all my spells and the spells of people near me naturally faded.... and precious little else happened. It still makes me chuckle because it was something I should have realized way earlier instead of having that "Well... shit" reaction later where my hope for it to do this one specific thing didn't succeed because franky, it would be impossible. And it caused a spot of bother that was entirely of my own doing and want to do something fancy pnp wise. Thankfully my character got redeemed later that event, and ticked everyone off doing it, EO style.

I've also had chars involved in stuff like true res and legend lore, my old EO cleric used to perform them as services to adventurers that got in a spot of bother, and I was on the receiving side once or twice. Personally, I prefer the 1 level worth of XP cost and the need for diamonds, because it adds a level of consequences to using magic that powerful.

In the Legend Lore instance, the best example I have is when my bard went to the mylock ruins to perform a Legend Lore casting to learn more about them. I had no idea what I was going for, or if it'd succeed or not, and what it'd show if it did succeed. It became sort of a mini personal event thing and I loved every second of it.

I have at other times had pnp stuff cost xp, cash, hours of rp and I find that the general rule of thumb is; ask politely, if you want to try and do it outside an event or something a DM is watching; give context as to why etc. Be ready to explain how or why your pc would have access to that specific pnp thing, does it make sense for your char to know or have it?

Following the above stuff, I've actually had every single request for pnp stuff go trough (in regards to DMs saying yes I mean), save one instance where in hindsight it was the completely correct call because it was on shaky ground in regards to my char knowing it. And finally, Xenos.. Yes you -can- burn DCs to stock up on XP for the purposes of casting, at least you could. I did it a few times back in the day and it didn't restrict the XP I got from doing it to 1, giving my character a nice healthy pool of XP to draw from.

My own interactions with the DM team and Legend Lore have been varied. The current standing team as far as I've seen though has been positive and receptive to the use of PnP spells, Legend Lore and Vision are two biggies for me.

The only times I have had negative or minimalist replies to such queries are in the past or for reasons which in further examination did make sense.

How spells work; Amia!

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