How do you explain EDR I-III on a normal Human as well. Literally can not be hurt anymore by non-magical super-daggers. All of a sudden, as well. The same goes for a lot of Epic Feats, Epic Fortitude for example.
Ogrillon just gets +1 Str and +1 Con for that Epic Feat. Thats the same as if you take Greater Strength and Greater Constition on a Level with a General Epic feat and a Bonus Feat. It's not even remotely out of the ordinary.
We can't implement them at level 1, anyway. Subraces aren't activated until you get in-game, so it would have to be a general feat to take anytime. But, yeah. What Mahtan said.
Lmao, you can make as many races as you want in EE. There is absolutely no reason to have subraces activated in game rather then creation screen. All the orcs are worse than before and you managed to make hob goblin even less enticing.
... Lmao, you can make as many races as you want in EE. There is absolutely no reason to have subraces activated in game rather then creation screen. ...
Yeah, that's old info. We've long since gone that route.
I don't mind admitting when I say something that's outdated and wrong. xD
But yes, we have since determined that we can implement the subraces properly at character creation.
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I have heard that the weak kobold/goblin subraces were being looked at to make them more competitive, so I was thinking of the following changes, highlighted in yellow:
So, here is my rationale for this: First, I wanted to ensure that the subraces were distinct from the regular halfling. I figure that some deviation from -2 STR +2 DEX was called for, otherwise they're too similar. For kobolds, the +1 CHA works well for a race that's supposed to take pride in their sorcery and produce a lot of sorcerers. Currently there's just as much incentive for them to go wizard as sorcerer. This would also give them some build diversity compared to halfling, where the CHA bonus could be useful for sorcs, bards, warlocks, or other classes that want CHA but don't really need STR. While it comes out with a net -1 for stats, and -4 STR is a pain for carry capacity, it does allow for some inventive building if the stats are properly applied.
Now goblin is trickier. They have a CHA penalty, but CHA is the most common dump stat and for builds with no need for CHA, the penalty is essentially meaningless, but otherwise it's the same as regular halfling. They're supposed to be savage and wild, and INT or WIS buffs wouldn't make sense given goblin lore. I figured a very slight reduction to their STR penalty, while not making or breaking most builds, would give goblin STR builds a slight edge. Naturally they'll still be behind medium sized PCs for STR builds but for a small size STR build that's not an outsider subrace, it's something they could pick. So I don't think lightening the STR penalty a bit will hurt. They are down -1 for stats but again, since it's CHA, it actually gives them a slight edge for builds that don't need it at all.
Monster alignment restrictions have been adjusted to just "The character cannot be of Good alignment." See the first post.
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In light of feedback and a considerable amount of discussion behind the scenes, the team has decided to ammend the following subraces and heritage feats:
_________________ Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...
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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it. Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
As I recall ECL was a thing that didn't literally add to your level but it did make you level slower as you would get less XP for things because of the "effective level" vs the challenge.
I seem to recall NWN2 uses the ECL system correctly without the need to nuke people in the CON or make them choose between racial stats just to keep them "balanced" to the Human default measure.
Can we by all means deal with broken SR or whatever (if it is its not an area I have much knowledge or use with) without falling into the paid MMO trap of if something is good in this area it must be arbitrarily balanced by a negative at least as bad literally anywhere else.
P.S. as a pnp DM I would never imposed such concepts on my players and nor would I factor in an entire system of feats/skills they need to take to "reclaim" their racial attributes in place of actual advancements whilst non-effected races simply take feats and get interesting things to use for the same level.
P.P.S. 3.0/3.5 already requires a ton of metagaming in the building to unlock desired choices further down the line, do we really want or need to add a system of feats/skills that need to be worked in to this onerous process just to regain ~some~ of the lost (stolen) racial abilities that should never have been reduced? Is this the best use of Devs time in this important transition? (or ever at all IMO!)
Well! Balance changes happen sometimes. In the case of aasimar, they needed a bit of a debuff anyway. They are quite strong presently. Otherwise, there is little change for those who want to give up the extra general feat they gain by being able to go to 30. In fact, some combinations may even get another bonus feat because of epic class bonus feats. The removal of ECL and offering the option to go back to what they had only helps everyone.
As far as "the best use of Dev time", it really isn't that much work to implement these things. And where balance is concerned, that's not a viable reason not to do something anyway.
In any case, these changes are meant to make it so that the wonky ECL system doesn't prevent people from being able to take class features or concepts. It's also much easier for the Dev Team to be able to build new things without having to take it into consideration for everything. So it's actually easier on the devs, more flexible on the players if they want certain concepts, and, yes, a balance change to aasimar, SR, and Stronghearts.
It comes down to this:
-We're moving into a new game with new systems that make ECL as it stands now a long-term burden on the Dev Team. -The Team has opted to allow for flexibility of builds and concepts for all characters. -Certain races needed to be adjusted to make up for this freedom and flexibility. Yes, aasimar were affected by this to make them in line with the other formerly +1 races. They were the only +1 race without a negative to at least one stat, so I personally think they should have been adjusted a long time ago for being too strong in comparison.
I hope that clears some of it up!
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Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
As I recall ECL was a thing that didn't literally add to your level but it did make you level slower as you would get less XP for things because of the "effective level" vs the challenge.
I seem to recall NWN2 uses the ECL system correctly without the need to nuke people in the CON or make them choose between racial stats just to keep them "balanced" to the Human default measure.
Can we by all means deal with broken SR or whatever (if it is its not an area I have much knowledge or use with) without falling into the paid MMO trap of if something is good in this area it must be arbitrarily balanced by a negative at least as bad literally anywhere else.
P.S. as a pnp DM I would never imposed such concepts on my players and nor would I factor in an entire system of feats/skills they need to take to "reclaim" their racial attributes in place of actual advancements whilst non-effected races simply take feats and get interesting things to use for the same level.
P.P.S. 3.0/3.5 already requires a ton of metagaming in the building to unlock desired choices further down the line, do we really want or need to add a system of feats/skills that need to be worked in to this onerous process just to regain ~some~ of the lost (stolen) racial abilities that should never have been reduced? Is this the best use of Devs time in this important transition? (or ever at all IMO!)
Amia is also - sadly - not just PnP where the DM can constantly adjust any challenge for the player Characters at hand, also there is Player Conflict going on quite a bit. Not balancing things would be a far bigger problem than just balancing things somehow.
Balance is a good thing. It keeps things fair. Ironically, balance keeps things more IC. Tell me, how many people play half-elves, as it is? Not too many, tbh. Maybe part of it is because it is in that awlward spot where it is too bland to be chosen by people who prefer ecotic characters, and too exotic compared to humans, if you want the 100% clean slate human offers. But there's also another thing. Half-elf is in a decent position now, but for a very long time, it was "human, but worse mechanically". And that certainly didn't help popularity.
If we were PnP, I'd agree. Screw balance. But then, even in PnP, you keep things balanced. If you have a new group of characters, all level 1, you would have their first "random encounter" be against a few animals. Goblins maybe. I highly doubt you'd pit them against Asmodeus himself.
Pnp isnt about "screwing" balance its about not arbitrarily doing things that don't make sense within the context of the game world, the game has to have an internal consistency, I don't see why that isn't a consideration for an online server as much as a face to face session.
For example there is no reason why on Faerune that an Aasimar is weaker in body than a Human where the -2 con would make any sort of sense.
If Amia has a problem with toxic pvpers abusing builds and loopholes or whatever then you will not balance them out of their play style by nerfing races you don't like.
How about make them interesting to play and not a chore maybe add incentives to other races if you feel Drow or Aasimar are over played rather than nerfing the defaults.
Joined: 28 May 2006 Location: That place with the green grass and that blue sky.
TraumaTeam wrote:
Pnp isnt about "screwing" balance its about not arbitrarily doing things that don't make sense within the context of the game world, the game has to have an internal consistency, I don't see why that isn't a consideration for an online server as much as a face to face session.
For example there is no reason why on Faerune that an Aasimar is weaker in body than a Human where the -2 con would make any sort of sense.
If Amia has a problem with toxic pvpers abusing builds and loopholes or whatever then you will not balance them out of their play style by nerfing races you don't like.
How about make them interesting to play and not a chore maybe add incentives to other races if you feel Drow or Aasimar are over played rather than nerfing the defaults.
Great things to have clarity for. And as you are a DM as well, I am sure we can both understand and respect the context of our individual gameworlds.
Amia has been separated from cannon Faerun for a very long time and many things here are unique to our version and take on FR. Aasimar even being able to be a universal subrace is a big one, if we are going to look for examples of things that are different here than cannon Faerun. CON was picked as its the least damaging to existing builds and to keep them closer in line with the balance that is our server.
Toxic PVP comes in all forms regardless of Classes or Subraces. Our choices in this were not fueled by curbing any sorts of loopholes or races "not liked". I am unsure how you come to that conclusion at all.
As one of the main drow players on both Surface and UD, I disagree with your assessment they are overplayed. I hope to see more drow characters about as we move to EE. Also, Drow gaining access to 2 more levels is outstanding in ways I am uncertain if everyone completely sees just yet.
I think this is going to be very interesting now for all the new build potentials and creativity that can happen by taking the Heritage feats or not. You can now have a Drow who specialized even greater to achieve something the one with the Heritage feat never could. There is new opportunity to be had and enjoyed through this rather than being hung up on minor changes and creating false assumptions and conclusions of the motives behind our work.
If you have questions about builds and how to take the most advantage of these new changes ask in our build discord or PM me. I rather not openly explain the mechanics and allow people to enjoy the fun of building with these new options.
Our choices in this were not fueled by curbing any sorts of loopholes or races "not liked". I am unsure how you come to that conclusion at all.
Then why is there a need for "balancing"? Sub races have certain advantages/disadvantages over the baseline of Human, the downside was mechanically they took much longer to level and lorewise that they usually come with some sort of expectations on them from the culture or race they derive from.
Mahtan wrote:
Toxic PVP comes in all forms regardless of Classes or Subraces.
Exactly the point I was making, these "balances" won't hinder those of that mindset. The principle pain will be felt by everyday players like me who is suddenly down 30HP 2 Charisma, 2 Constitution, 1 concentration and potentially an Epic feat and a further save nerf for no reason that could be possibly articulated in character terms.
Mahtan wrote:
As one of the main drow players on both Surface and UD, I disagree with your assessment they are overplayed. I hope to see more drow characters about as we move to EE. Also, Drow gaining access to 2 more levels is outstanding in ways I am uncertain if everyone completely sees just yet.
What assessment? I made no such assertion. I was saying that instead of arbitary attribute penalties how about make other races more attractive IF there is the perception or feeling that certain races are over played.
Mahtan wrote:
There is new opportunity to be had and enjoyed through this rather than being hung up on minor changes and creating false assumptions and conclusions of the motives behind our work.
Hardly minor. Not creating false anything, thank you very much. I am exploring what has been proffered and offering my thoughts, your ad hominem is not called for, but thank you for making it clear that top down is the way here.
If people enjoy trashing subrace lore to allow "fun" build options so be it, my Aasimar will gather dust as she is already level pre-nerf max level and I can't think of a reason to reroll a pre-nerfed character instead of just rolling a new Human, NOT being prenerfed and having a free feat (that I don't have to spend not being nerfed) and 30 skill points too boot!
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)
Balancing is an ever-changing process, and the team decided that moving forward to EE, there needed to be a change done to the way we implemented ECL
In the books, Level adjustments simply functioned as making your PC level slower due to their effective level being calculated as higher than it actually was. In a persistent world, where we do have a level cap, it was decided years and years ago that ECL would mean a lowering of the level cap for certain races. This is a method that the team decided not to continue moving forward.
However, simply removing the level adjustment poses balancing problems. In some cases, such as aasimar, there would be hardly any drawbacks to taking them, save for a banishment vulnerability. In light of this, the team decided that a counterbalance in the form of an epic feat, one that they otherwise would not have had access to, would be a roughly equitable trade.
In many many ways this is a buff as the amount of build flexibility this opens up to these subraces cannot be understated.
And, just a sidenote from me personally;
This was in no way an attack "subraces we don't like," whatsoever, that implication is absolutely unfounded.
_________________ Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...
You're losing one fort and gaining a new level, and you're calling that a nerf? That one level can be a lot: a feat, a class feature, a DC... Admittedly, yes, you're losing a con modifier, and it sucks for barbs, I guess... Or for the few ability rolls that DMs call for... Other than that, con gives you fort and 30 hp. Those two points of con thus lower your total hp by 30, but then the thirtieth level you gain gives that back. So if you care that much, use the new class level for something that gives you something good...
I really don't get how folks can see this as a nerf, when it literally changes ECL to be far better to use than previously. With the current system, ECL stopped you from getting WW (or giving up tumble for it) Hellball... EDodge, depending on build, could be impossible or at least hard to get. With the current system, you get far more. A couple of races had to be nerfed for it, okay. And even then, they're still better than they used to be, simply for the fact that they can get 30 levels. And anyone with half a brain would notice that.
Balancing is an ever-changing process, and the team decided that moving forward to EE, there needed to be a change done to the way we implemented ECL
In the books, Level adjustments simply functioned as making your PC level slower due to their effective level being calculated as higher than it actually was. In a persistent world, where we do have a level cap, it was decided years and years ago that ECL would mean a lowering of the level cap for certain races. This is a method that the team decided not to continue moving forward.
However, simply removing the level adjustment poses balancing problems. In some cases, such as aasimar, there would be hardly any drawbacks to taking them, save for a banishment vulnerability. In light of this, the team decided that a counterbalance in the form of an epic feat, one that they otherwise would not have had access to, would be a roughly equitable trade.
In many many ways this is a buff as the amount of build flexibility this opens up to these subraces cannot be understated.
And, just a sidenote from me personally;
This was in no way an attack "subraces we don't like," whatsoever, that implication is absolutely unfounded.
I must ask an question.
Why is balancing an ever-changing process in a 15 years + old game with no new patches or content? (EE can be said to be new content but still)
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Balance will always be an expanding process. If we want to continue to make our own custom content for everyone, refigure things with new systems that are introduced to us (like EE stuff under the hood), and take continuous feedback for bugs and changes from players, then balance will be forever modifying a bit at least.
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