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Jes
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 3:53 AM 

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DRAGON DISCIPLE CHANGES FOR ENHANCED EDITION

Dragon DiscipleRequirements:
    Bard or Sorcerer
    8 Lore
    Not of the Outsider or Fey subraces


(by level)

1. d6 HP, +1 AC
2. +2 STR, +1 Caster Level
3. Dragon Breath
4. d8 HP, +1 Caster Level
5. ----
6. d10 HP, +1 Caster Level
7. +2 CON
8. +1 AC (RP Note: No willful removal of DD levels beyond this point.), +1 Caster Level
9. Wings, +2 INT
10. +2 STR, +2 CHA, Darkvision, 50% immunity to element, immunity to paralysis, and immunity to sleep, +1 Caster Level
11. d12 HP
12. +1 AC, +1 Caster Level
13. ----
14.+1 Caster Level
15. 75% immunity to element, Free tail or vfx horns or legs
16.+1 Caster Level
17. ----
18. 24 SR, +2 CON, +2 STR, +1 Caster Level
19. ----
20. +1 AC, Free tail or vfx horns or legs, 100% immunity to element, +2 CHA, 32 SR, +1 Caster Level


Total Changes:
    +6 STR instead of +8
    +4 CON instead of +6
    +4 AC instead of +6
    Cannot be Outsider or Fey

    3 Free Draconic Traits instead of 2
    Up to +10 Caster Level
    Requires Level 20 to get the end-level traits

NOTE: Existing Outsider/Fey type Dragon Disciple characters will have their existing races grandfathered. Remember that these races must be RP'ed. They should have physical traits which indicate what the character is in addition to the draconic traits. You should expect that you won't be able to enhance the character's other bloodline at all, due to the Enhancement of the dragon blood.

This ruling also applies to disciples who have the heritage of a dragon of outsider or fey types (like radiant dragon or battle dragon disciples). Since dragon disciples do not receive a race change to dragon, neither will disciples of outsider or fey type dragons receive that racial type.



----------

This change will go into effect with EE. We have decided that Outsiders and Fey type beings are not able to awaken magical dragon blood because another magical bloodline has already manifested in them and has asserted itself as dominant. This applies to all Outsider subraces (Aasimar, Tiefling, Fey'ri, and Genasi) and the Feytouched subrace.

As mentioned above, existing characters on Amia who have one of these subraces and Dragon Disciple will not be forced to change their race. You may do so when you do your EE rebuild, however, if you would like to shift to adhere to this ruling. Just let us know when the time comes for the rebuild to be submitted.

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Frozen-ass
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 6:32 AM 

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I have 3 concerns/questions:

-how does + on caster level even works for Sorcerers? This as they wont get extra spells with normal + on caster level classes. Seems a but useless this way specially if you go full 20 levels DD
-races with a level adjustment will suddenly never be able to reach full DD, seems a bit unfair
-for full DD this will effectively not lower the AC from 6 to 4 but from 12 to 4 as you cant take a tumble class with it.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 8:46 AM 

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Frozen-ass wrote:
I have 3 concerns/questions:

-how does + on caster level even works for Sorcerers? This as they wont get extra spells with normal + on caster level classes. Seems a but useless this way specially if you go full 20 levels DD
-races with a level adjustment will suddenly never be able to reach full DD, seems a bit unfair
-for full DD this will effectively not lower the AC from 6 to 4 but from 12 to 4 as you cant take a tumble class with it.


1- If I'm reading this correctly, it means a full DD will get full compliment of sorcerer spells, though they wont be very powerful as the CL will be capped to 20, as opposed to full 30 caster level, so you're basically a fluff mage. CL also enhances duration and the scaling effects of certain spells.

2- It's already like this, same with any PrC + ECL race so nothing changes there.

3- You're still getting +4 AC for free, even cross-dumping Tumble will make that +7 which is pretty good, just because it's not better than what it originally was, it's off set by everything else you can now gain from the class.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 9:53 AM 

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1. I'll get back with you on the specific details.
2. This is already a thing, yes, and also part of the balance of a strong class. I can maybe explain more about that, too.
3. This is already something characters with 20 DD deal with. It's taken into consideration as part of the balance.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 12:46 PM 

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I'd imagine the +CL adds to sorcerer or bard caster level, but doesn't increase spells/day or allow new spell selections. which actually brings up a question: If someone builds a Sorc/Bard/RDD, would the +CL apply to both Sorcerer and Bard? Not that I can see many builds using that...



P.S. Will kobold RDDs get any additional advantages? Maybe a +2 STR to help offset their -4 STR penalty? Kobold and RDD fits well lore-wise too...

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 15:33 PM 

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Kobolds won't get special treatment, no. There's no reason for them to get extra.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 15:54 PM 

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Weird for me to speak out in *favour* of a Class I'd rather see removed and erased from the History books, but:

I still think level 20 RDD should give 32 SR.

I understand your reasoning of "We don't want to give them an Epic Item freebie" but hear me out:

20 Levels investment is not a freebie, especially not on a class that can't Tumbledump with 20 Levels. Also, I would say 32 SR is on a level with Freedom or Evasion, and both of those are easily gained by some class levels. Hell, Drow get the best SR in the game just by existing (Excluding Monks and Spells).

I know I was saying "Oh, RDD gets so much good shit like 32 SR" and that is true, but I think with the nerfs and a move to RDD 20, 32 SR is more than warranted. 28 SR feels completely... half assed and worthless. You invest 20 Levels and can't even forego the Arcane Defiance Plate, that seems a bit unfair.

Other than that, I think I like the changes. Though I'd still would have preferred if you had just removed RDD and banned anyone who ever made one.

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Frozen-ass
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 16:29 PM 

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Jes wrote:
1. I'll get back with you on the specific details.
2. This is already a thing, yes, and also part of the balance of a strong class. I can maybe explain more about that, too.
3. This is already something characters with 20 DD deal with. It's taken into consideration as part of the balance.


1. thx, looking forward to it
2. although yes its currently a thing to, to rp a proper DD 18 was the way to go, now you need 20, tho i hope you can, curius about it.
3. who takes 20 DD with current way? any way, for sake of balance sure!

freaxxshow1338 wrote:
Other than that, I think I like the changes. Though I'd still would have preferred if you had just removed RDD and banned anyone who ever made one.

@freaxx, that includes you then ;)

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 16 2020, 17:32 PM 

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We are in the talks right now to make the level 20 DD investment 32 SR instead of the 28. A small change but should make the few people going full 20 DD not completely cry.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jun 20 2020, 0:03 AM 

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That's a good boost for investing in 20 RDD. Also I live that outsider and fey RDDs are being removed from play lol

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jun 20 2020, 23:32 PM 

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While I think the total bonuses are fine, I think the class might be a bit "end-loaded" as it were, with a lot of benefits at L18, but there aren't really many solid benefits from L13-L17. L18 is where it gets a bonus feat too. Could the bonuses be spread out a bit more? Maybe move either the CON or STR bonus at L18 to L15?

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 21 2020, 14:30 PM 

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I was thinking more about the spread, and I still think way too much is put on L18, SR, a feat, and +4 stats, while several epic levels give minimal benefits to nothing at all. I would like to propose a revised progression. I made it so that it still gets the same benefits at L20, but spreading it around should make for a smoother level progression.


Dragon DiscipleRequirements:
    Bard or Sorcerer
    8 Lore
    Not of the Outsider or Fey subraces


(by level)

1. d6 HP, +1 AC
2. +2 STR, +1 Caster Level
3. Dragon Breath
4. d8 HP, +1 Caster Level
5. 14 SR
6. d10 HP, +1 Caster Level
7. +2 CON
8. +1 AC (RP Note: No willful removal of DD levels beyond this point.), +1 Caster Level
9. Wings, +2 INT
10. +2 STR, +2 CHA, Darkvision, 50% immunity to element, immunity to paralysis, and immunity to sleep, +1 Caster Level
11. d12 HP, 18 SR
12. +1 AC, +1 Caster Level
13. +2 CON
14.+1 Caster Level (Feat)
15. 75% immunity to element, Free tail or vfx horns or legs
16. +1 Caster Level, 22 SR
17. +2 STR
18. +1 Caster Level (Feat)
19. 26 SR
20. +1 AC, Free tail or vfx horns or legs, 100% immunity to element, +2 CHA, 32 SR, +1 Caster Level


Thoughts on the matter? Most of the changes I made were to the epic progression, with the exception of L5 which gets a pittance SR, though it could help while levelling. I know L10 also gets a lot, but it's the last pre-epic level, and is supposed to be big, and I know we don't want to encourage 4 RDD cheesing too much. Could also swap the CON bonus and STR bonus at L13 and L17, if that's wanted, since I know some builds rely on 15 RDD.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 1:34 AM 



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Front loading the stats a little bit, especially CON like Kobras proposal also always for more builds such as Epic Damage Reduction 1/2/3


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 4:10 AM 

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Dragon Disciple is intentionally end-loaded to prevent some class combinations from being just too powerful. I wouldn't want to see it changed from what was decided.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 15:23 PM 

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End loading like the current suggestion is a very klunky method of class balance if there's long stretches of levels that literally do nothing of benefit. Which combinations would you say are too powerful without the end-loading? I know with the current implementation, most of the current RDD builds have been 10/2/18 Fighter/Bard/RDD, which is a decent baseline, getting the bonus feats and EWS, a good solid all-arounder. I don't think that RDD builds ought to be pidgeonholed into this single combination for class balance, though.

Most of the potentially problematic ones would take advantage of the RDD's CHA bonus. The ones that come to mind most prominently are Paladin/RDD and BG/RDD.

For Paladin/RDD, the old baseline build was/would've been 2/10/18, though you could easily lose the 2nd sorc level. 1/9/20 doesn't mean too many sacrifices, though it means the saves/divmight/divshield is capped at 9 when it was 10. So end-loading just means all the benefits come at near L30. This combo doesn't get a tumble dump anyways. Even so I think this build is rather well off, all things considered, just gets it's stuff later.

For BG/RDD, the optimal build before was 6/15/9 Bard/BG/RDD. Now BG/RDD gets hit hard by the end-loading. It WAS a too powerful combo, able to get a DC 45 devcrit, decent AB, and very high AC. With the new implementation though, you can't really squeeze out more BG levels or you lose divmight/divshield/saves bonuses. Losing the 6th bard level means losing 3 tumble AC. You can't hit 18 RDD without major sacrifices, like going 5/18/7. Still, I put the CON bonus first for that reason, most of these builds would get more out of the STR. This one definitely needed a nerf, for sure, but even if you take my suggestions, the STR bonus is at L17, and getting 17 RDD means either losing the tumble dump, or capping off your BG CHA benefits at 7, with a 6/17/7 combo. Compared to the fighter build, that's: +7 AC from divine shield* OR +7 Damage from divine might, 2d6 sneak attack, +7 Saves, and needing to gear up CHA, vs +6 Damage from EWS, a lot of extra feats + feat flexibility, an extra epic feat (for either armor skin or epic prowess) and less stat pressure from being able to dump CHA.

*(you can't fit in both divshield and divmight with this build, it's too feat tight, unless you use a simple weapon - Dagger fits, but is weaker than the martial options, scimitar/rapier's better crit range makes it the more optimal pick),

There's also the thought of KC/RDD. This one doesn't lose /that/ much by going for 18, it means losing a tumble dump, but they can pre-epic tumble dump so that's only 2 AC down. They can go for 8/5/17, but well, levels 13-17 with the current official suggestion are useless. Besides, the standard build needs 6 epic feats to make it work well (G-Str, EWF, Eprowess, Armor Skin, OV Crit, DV Crit), and losing 18 RDD would mean losing that feat, in which dropping armor skin equates to losing the tumble skill dump.

I also thought of DivChamp/RDD, which can be tricky because of DC's AB requirement. You can pre-epic 5/8/7 without losing the 16 AB cutoff mark, the build would probably go for 6/14/10, or perhaps 6/16/8, but there's really no point in going for those extra 2 RDD levels at the moment.

Ranger/RDD doesn't synnergize so well because of the needs of Bane of Enemies, not to mention the wasted CHA bonus. If you're going for the IMPR TWF at Ranger 9 they'll still go heavy RDD.

Barbarian/RDD is a curious one, Barbarian gets a lot of benefits out of getting Barb 24, though can stop at Barb 17. Going for too few Barb levels means losing the Barbarian benefits, and of course they'll want 2 bard for the skill dumping. 16/2/12 might be possible, so the changes I suggested won't affect this build too much. (It'll get some SR, but not enough to really matter in most situations).


Were the EE bonus classes factored into the discussion too? The only one I see being potentially problematic is Two Weapon Fighter, but that has many of the same considerations KC gets being L5 capped. Duelist doesn't really help either, just being mostly inferior to fighter in this instance, Defender is end-loaded and a few points of DR for a splash won't make a broken build, and also has a high AB requirement. RDD/AA is a klunky build due to the STR/DEX requirements of this build, Arbalest won't synnergize at all, and Eldritch Knight won't work well at all since it still only uses Sorcerer level's spell list meaning making a heavy EK/RDD means that they'll have no spell selections with so few sorc levels, and if they dip heavy into sorc, then they have to give up a lot of their EK or RDD levels anyways.

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Last edited by The1Kobra on Mon, Jun 22 2020, 17:47 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 17:00 PM 

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Your suggested changes seem very arbitrary and there's no real reason for there to be something on EVERY level. I also don't think there's anything "clunky" about it. That just makes no sense, and you don't really explain how it's clunky. They're not being pigeon-holed. There is a lot of freedom in this setup, whether you see it or not. Not all PRCs that allow up to 20 levels get something on each level. This is just one that requires great investment to get the best end-level attributes. The changes you're suggesting aren't doing a whole lot to change the end-heavy balance, anyway, so I would be more comfortable leaving it as it is.

The 32 SR thing is still being discussed.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 17:42 PM 

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Very few classes don't offer some progressive benefits to taking more levels, about the only exception that I can think of off-hand is Weapon Master, which gives big benefits at levels 5, 7, and in epic it gives benefits at levels 13, 16, 19. For the others though, most give progressive benefits that are incremental and while there are 'big' levels (SD 6 comes to mind for HIPS, but other SD levels offer other benefits), there are generally some incentives.
Rogue levels give more sneak attack, assassin gives that and more and more tricks. Caster classes get more CL/spell pen, fighters/divchamps get feats every 2 levels (4 in epic for divchamps, but they keep getting bonus saves), shifters get better forms at about every level (including upgrades for older forms), AA more arrow enhancement, Shadowdancers get stronger shadows, etc. DDs and BGs, are probably the most similar, but even then, DDs get more DR, BGs have a big cutoff at 16 with an epic fiend and better spells, so they're probably the most similar.

The reason I find it clunky is mostly with the levelling process, most classes gain incremental benefits to help as they level up. For RDDs in that range, they're getting nothing in the L23-27 range, just the standard feat/stats rather than the benefits other classes get, until they hit L28. Sure, there are builds that have big benefits at certain levels, skill dumps usually, or a big epic spell, or nice ability at a certain level, but if we're talking mostly just taking RDD levels in epic, it's not the same. Especially if those benefits are granted in the late epic region.

That's my thought on the matter, anyways, and why I think benefits ought to be more incremental.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 22 2020, 18:08 PM 

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I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. xD

That's just me personally, though. Your suggestion would be of benefit to one of my DD characters, but I happen to agree with the rest of the Team about the balance aspect. Alas.

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