AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - "RP BUILDS" or "You don't know how to build".

This ties in with a few of my other postings and may shed some light on why I can be such a remarkable tool. I make a lot of "RP builds". For many this is a dirty word, or an indication that someone doesn't know how to optimize. I do, and if I get stumped, I know exactly who to ask for help. No. I make characters, personalities, not just "builds". Often times what I want a character to do and how I want it to behave becomes a challenge just to make them playable. This gives them a sense of limitation and often a reliance on others to accomplish tasks. I personally like being in parties. I think epic areas should require them. I also like having something unique. Not just a cookie cutter of everyone else with some personal flavor. I am also a D&D purist. I feel terrible about how contradictory I get, most recently with Kamina and the Shadow Dancer thread. This is because The Epic Summon given already far exceeds what vanilla D&D would allow . The summoned shadow gains levels, ab and hit die proportionate to the level of SD. I think that Shadowdancer behaves like it is supposed to. It's for RP. SHadow Dancer in any incarnation is not designed to be a solo machine or pvp powerhouse. Instead if you need a spy or a scout..or someone to confuse or distract the enemy, that is the go- to class. Recent Changes to RDD made it closer to what it was supposed to be. Nothing more. It's still one of the most mediocre melee builds available, unless you count the very tasteless PM combo.
So. Sorry Kamina if it feels like I was targeting you, I just feel like that by making all classes equal or on level terms, we are dilluting the RP environment in favor of PvP.

Before someone jumps in and says it. Yes. PvP is an inevitable and necessary form of conflict resolution. I openly despise the pvp rules. It defangs classes like Assassin and those that favor stealth in order to make a quick, unseen kill. It also allows characters to talk an almost enless amount of shit before saying "You aren't worth it" an walking away. If more people got split in half at random, there would be a lot less bad asses on Amia. There is nothing wrong with building for PvP either. It's good for RP. What irritates me again, is when people can't seem to understand why certain classes are just better at it. Same way with PvE. MY F/B/ RDD can tank for days. HE does rediculous damage at times for a one hander. He's also blind, deaf and has zero chance with traps, locks, diplomacy, intimidation, performing, appraising, ect. These are all skills that make a character more enriching and give them value in an RP environment. Many of you know that I make great use of the job system. That shit is awesome. It gives you a place in the world, outside of being "another adventurer".

Perspective. There are two sides to every story. One story may go "Some coward was taking shots at me from the shadows and ran off". From the other perspective it would be "That idiot ate seven arrows without ever so much as scratching me before I got hungry and decided to go have a curry".

Just rambling.

I do have to agree the PvP rules, while nescessary do defang some styles of combat and tactics that require spontaniety and the ability to react suddenly from seeming calm.

That being said, they're nescesary to keep from people who solely want to PvP from having the lease to do so without consequences.

I would call many good strong builds RP builds. If people truly play them through.

On the other hands, many weak builds I just cant call RP builds as their players tend to play how tough their characters are even when they are not, which to me is bad RP.

My take on RP building defers me again to the great words of a wiseman from my last server:

Quote:

Choices which one makes for RP should not be considered a basis for balance.

The thing is: NWN doesn't make you roll stats. There's nobody holding your hand and saying "you're 1 CHA point short to speak that coherently". NWN mechanics lend themselves in absolutely no way to 'RP building' -- because concessions made by a player for RP are cosmetic. Nobody can see them, it's your character sheet.

It does really show character development either. You, more than anyone, should honestly know that; seeing as I've not seen a single character you've played take a while to get up in levels.

I really really don't want to even get started on the fact that levels, feats, skillpoints, classes, etc aren't reflections of training or closed off if you haven't RPed for them. At the end of the day? These things that would matter in PnP don't here. Levels and experience are a measurement of how many unrepentant savage scum you have watched die.

I'm absolutely not saying that building 'for roleplay' is reprehensible or not legal. What I am saying is that:

EDIT (p.s): I'm not supportive of the RP build statement for that reason. I suspect this relates to the shadowdancer thread -- so I will shoot from the hip and say this clearly: I believe that building strong is acceptable as long as you're roleplaying whatever you end up with at level 30. At the same time I believe if you want to build based on development, you should be free to. I don't believe that "just worry about getting by and build for RP okay?" Is EVER a good mentality. The thing is that literally everything that isn't an obviously terrible and around-your-ass-to-your-ear gimmick build should be 'capable ', or the game isn't balanced. Every single class should be able to be as gung ho as you want built even moderately right.

You should be able to freely go either way regardless of your choice of weapon and core class.

Merged the duplicated threads.

Don't care, really. It's people's characters. As long as they roleplay their classes in SOME capacity, I'm cool with whatever people want to build as long as it isn't anything too obscene IMO.

^

I've played everything from pure RP builds to powerbuilt powerhouses and as long as my characters classes and background fits into their personality and such then why does it matter if someone's a sorc/ranger, a bard/pm/rdd or whatever other class combination that's mechanically possible, as long as you have fun playing it and it doesn't break any rules.

Also even if I was to pvp a lot with someone like my pure rogue character, then player experience will still tend to trump character power. And as already pointed out, since a 30 rogue is pretty shit at PvP, I'd be more likely to avoid PVP on him than on my sorc, wizard or even by bard/Kc chars. Not sure why that's supposed to be a bad thing or point against powerbuilds, whenever the argument for or against comes along, because it's just playing to your strength. My powerful chars tend to be far more confrontational than my weaker built chars. If it was the other way around then that'd be a bit like being the 4 foot tall kid at the basketball court that keep thinking he's all that because his mom tells him he's special, and then cries foul when they dunk on his ass.

Sorry but that's just how it goes. a strong build kicks the ass of a weak one (most of the time) and neither so called "powerbuilds" or "rp builds" are any more valid than the other option because of this fact. Anyone that claims their build is taking the higher road is enforcing some silly vision that their path is the superior one, and that sort of superior attitude is something that bothers me WAAAY more than whatever class combination you put on your character. Congratulations, you built a weak character. Don't thumb your nose at people that didn't and somehow claim you're better than them because of that fact, because you're really really not.

Also: Most people can kill eachother regardless of how powerful someone is or not, if you have enough experience and time it right and have luck on your side. Nothing humbles a powerbuild like the 30 trap surprise technique, and nothing humbles a mage as much as that scroll of silence save finally rolling 1. At the end of the day, what classes or build you have on your character is your business, as is if you like pvp or not (I personally don't). As long as someone's following the server rules, I don't get why people keep bringing up the distinction between RP builds and "Pvp" builds. Build whatever, have it make sense for your char and then go have fun. It's the whole point of RPing, isn't it?

Agreed. I also never take the " higher road", unless of course it's my pacifist cleric who wears robes, only slots heals and buffs and refuses to actively take lives. He also never initiates pvp or gets involved in arguements. I would never, ever create a weak character and pretend he was strong, as my character sheet always represents his or her personality. Unless of course, I built an idiot. Using "RP build as an excuse as to why you lose or suck should never be an excuse. If you built this character to be inferior in combat, be humble or expect to lose and take it in stride.
Powerbuilt characters are the worst at this. Nothing, and I mean nothing irritates me more than winning in PvP against someone and then having them immediately cry foul because they somehow lost. Sorry battle clerics, you don't get three minutes to buff up.

Also. Beating someone over, and over and over again, as they fearlessly fling themselves at you. The fearless part annoys me. If someone has reduced you to a pile of pudding repeatedly and they have zero consideration for this..like it never happened. Thats just..meh. I even had someone respawn four times! I killed an entire party in one shot with WoF...turns out they were all outsiders. I got called a meta gamer. The reality was one of them emoted that when angered, "Her eyes went ablaze and smoke billowed from her nostrils". Battle Clerics often initiate conflict, zone and then return fully buffed to resume. Big no-go for me. Such shenanigans have left me slightly disenchanted with pvp over the years, and as such, I don't particularly build for it like I used to.

What I am mostly referring to are dice rolls. Investing in skills that most have zero counter for, as they are not combat related, only to be ignored because you can beat them without ever drawing a weapon. This game uses dice for everything. Your attacks, your spells, your saves. To ignore the fact that I can blatantly lie to you, trick you, or coerce you is like me saying I am immune to your attacks. You are literally ignoring half of the game, because you don't like the outcome, because you didn't invest in a means to counter it.

Me and da boyz know how to build for pvp. Thing is the difference between a pvp built version of your character and the RP one is essentially far more numbers but identical RP. Because if you have an RP concept that needs a build, we will optimize it to make it pvp ready, and your RP will be identical, you just have higher attack bonus's and way higher saves. Seriously, sometimes going 11 in one class instead of your planned 9 results in a D tier build going to an A tier build simply because of additional skills and feats you can now get; you actually just get more shit and lose nothing by slightly altering your class spread. No exaggeration, it happens a lot when we look at builds people send us.

PM me or Gribbo if you got something you want to do RP wise and want some mechanics experts to take look.

Hehe. I can actually build man. I just tend to do wonky things these days to see if, and how they will function. Thanks for the offer though. I may take you up on it sometime though. A fresh set of eyes never hurts.

That was a general offer to everyone

Grymia wrote:

I do have to agree the PvP rules, while nescessary do defang some styles of combat and tactics that require spontaniety and the ability to react suddenly from seeming calm.

That being said, they're nescesary to keep from people who solely want to PvP from having the lease to do so without consequences.

My main issue with ow the pvp rules work is that there just isn't any way to catch people by surprise with sneakery builds. And it's been proven before that once people get the assassin warning from a DM they just start buffing the majority of the time. That said, for every othe instance I think the pvp rules work just fine as long as they're properly followed.

I doubt the DMs are lacking for any widgets or tools to instantly debuff a PC who decides to metagame the assassination warning. It's metagaming, plain and simple.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Grymia wrote:

I do have to agree the PvP rules, while nescessary do defang some styles of combat and tactics that require spontaniety and the ability to react suddenly from seeming calm.

That being said, they're nescesary to keep from people who solely want to PvP from having the lease to do so without consequences.

My main issue with ow the pvp rules work is that there just isn't any way to catch people by surprise with sneakery builds. And it's been proven before that once people get the assassin warning from a DM they just start buffing the majority of the time. That said, for every othe instance I think the pvp rules work just fine as long as they're properly followed.

I've had no issues. Remember you get two weeks.

Can you post a DM ruling? I personally never heard of it being two weeks. (not that I mind, but I would like to be safe there)

As it is on topic, here is a quick link for the presently posted PvP rules:
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=918579#p918579

It may need to be updated.
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As for building RP vs Power, I personally build for RP.

I set a goal for what I want the character to achieve mechanically, but with exception of 1 toon of mine, I usually end up with wiggle room to dedicate a feat or two, and extra skill points into things that are most of use in a DM Plot.

Now, even when building for RP, a build may surprise you. I was more than a little shocked with my prankster Toby. Instead of dying every time, like I thought he would, he has defeated more than a few PC threats to the Dale, which had unabashedly been built for power. Beat them down with a chair and a sling, no less. It was hilarious to watch, for all parties involved, and I want to again thank the Banites of 2011-2012 for being good sports about it all, both during and after. Those are my very favorite PvP memories, and I've held every other PvP up to that.

His build is aimed at being a Warsling Sniper (dex-based barb/rogue), but I still found ample room to dump skill points into things like Spellcraft, Open Lock, and Appraise. 3 skills that don't amount for beans in PvP, especially for a non-caster, but could come in handy in RP and reflect the other things the character knows of.

robbi320 wrote:

Can you post a DM ruling? I personally never heard of it being two weeks. (not that I mind, but I would like to be safe there)

You get two weeks.

Thanks!

<3

Regarding sneaks, bob

Let's talk honestly for a moment: dexbuilds really don't need more help. They're actually better than strength ones at front on confrontation due to Epic Dodge still being a quasi pretentious feat.

Builds aside - the warning assassins have to give is a nonsense and a metagaming of the highest grade. Both for the target and for the assassin.

I've never agreed with it and never will.

But, this is Amia, without that one bit of... boundary (two weeks is a long damn time!), we'd just have assassinations all over the place with no roleplay behind them. Soon, dogs and cats would be living together... mass hysteria.

That Guy wrote:

But, this is Amia, without that one bit of... boundary (two weeks is a long damn time!), we'd just have assassinations all over the place.

I guarantee you we'd not. It's an assumption I've never understood.

Just look around how many assassins we have on Amia. The very number is enough to clarify my point of view.

The objective conundrum with that statement is that it's not just assassins or even just sneaks that can attempt to assassinate.

Unless I am wrong?

Well I was given the impression that only assassins can perform the assassination. And given the popularity assassins have (class / build wise, which is close to none), I find the hysteria around assassinations overexaggerated (considering the impacts the eventual death would have are none).

... right?

Personally, I'd say you don't have to be an assassin to assassinate. I mean, in certain cases, it might be better to ask a Wizard to kill someone with magic. And at the point where he agrees, he agreed to assassinate someone.

Personally, thinking about it, two weeks is a rather short time. I mean, I'm happy I have any time, but my PC died this Sunday. Probably going to take a week in total to fix. So, one week gone. Yeah, I can give him another warning, but even if I have a full week. You know how often I would get to play with Australians? Literally never, because I have school in their evenings. Even Americans, if they can't go online before 6 PM EST, I'd have to stay up until 12 to play at the same time. Let's say I take 10 minutes to find them and get them somewhere I even am ALLOWED to attack them (ie, no guards, etc.), which is very short (I mean if you're not hunting, how often are you not in a town?). Ten more minutes to kill, 10 more because I like round numbers. So, in an almost ideal situation, I have to stay up until 00:30 AM. I can do this on Fridays and Saturdays. Now, That is before most people play, which is 8 PM EST, which would mean staying up until 2:30 AM. I get that time zones are my problem, and not my targets, but I have four days in truth when I get two weeks. Now, maybe I can't play one of them, or my target doesn't...

It gets even worse when the target metagames the warning and logs in less than usual.

Assassinate is an actual Assassin PrC ability on Amia, that is what he is referring to, I believe. As for the difference between being an assassin and just being a killer? An adventurer kills his enemies as a daily fact of life. An assassin dedicates their lives to the kill, perfecting their fatal art until the're either killed or live long enough to retire.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Assassinate is an actual Assassin PrC ability on Amia, that is what he is referring to, I believe. As for the difference between being an assassin and just being a killer? An adventurer kills his enemies as a daily fact of life. An assassin dedicates their lives to the kill, perfecting their fatal art until the're either killed or live long enough to retire.

no he means the ability to tell a dm you're going to kill someone, and then the dm team relays to that person that 'someone' can now kill you within the next two weeks and it's nice and legal

Quote:

"RP BUILDS" or "You don't know how to build".

I don't understand this title?

I thought it was "PVP builds or you don't know how to build?

That seems to be the mantra on this Role Roll-play server whenever someone is talking about builds or how some pvp battle went because of "pvp builders" etc etc.

Play nice. And I don't want to see any more agitation towards other players, just so we are perfectly clear here. (And in case that wasn't clear, I'm also willing to do something about that if I DO continue to see that)

"RP BUILDS" or "You don't know how to build".

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