Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
I don't mean to discourage the designer, or the design of the map. I'm so happy the Dev team is moving forward. But I /hate/ it. We went there hoping to kill some creatures. It's to tiny for a group, it's to laggy and if your a Shifter it's a waste. Because you have to upshift each time you go further down the climbing system and lose your abilities to shift. I hope the Dev team sees the difficulties that design is, not just for shifters but for everyone. I enjoy we're updating maps but depends on the actual update.
I was hemming and hawing over a topic of my own for a few hours, but then you made this while I was writing. Deleted my post and repasting it here:
My biggest problem with the change lies in the climbing sections at the beginning of the caves. To start with, it's not a particularly interesting mechanic, and quickly just becomes a hassle (especially if your computer is bad and your load times are long). It also screws with the dungeon difficulty, in that where previously the mobs were at their weakest at the start and got progressively stronger (allowing weaker characters to "dip in", as it were), you're now up against Heroes and Shamans almost immidiately.
But the kicker is that the transitions don't work for polymorphed characters. You've practically barred the place to shifters, druids and anyone who uses Shapechange.
There's other stuff, but they're a bit more subjective. I'm (typo edit:) not fond of the new lighting. The old caves made every level look a bit different, the new caves are just dark and dreary all the way through. The new cavern hallways are narrow and fiddly and are going to be a nightmare with melee-heavy parties, especially if bulky summons are involved. Sometimes the spawns are too spaced out. While I like flavour text in general, the ones here don't seem to be doing much more than try to gross me out with endless talk of piss and vomit, and as such they get a bit tiresome.
There's also the fact that the entire last level is devoid of spawns, including the King (which incidentally leaves bards unable to do the Lichsong quest).
Plus, there's some lore quibbles. Why is there suddenly an active volcano right next to Kohlingen? Why doesn't the intense heat damage us in any way? How is it that we are able to reach cooler air by going below the magma lakes? And why are gnolls painting their stuff with the symbol of Shargaas, the exclusively orcish god of assassins?
Sigh. Normally I wouldn't complain this much. If this was a new area, I'd just be happy to see something fresh on the server (even if its faults might prevent me from revisiting after I'm done exploring). As is, we are losing one of the most beloved, perfectly functional dungeons on the entire server, and I can't honestly say that there's anything about the replacement that is an improvement.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
This is actually a very recent update Cory. It basically cripples, as Lar said, any who have to shapechange.
No but I mean they knew using that script makes it unusable for shifters for the last year but it was unchanged and kept being used....hence like on this new update.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Aaah. Yeah. This complaint even isn't about my shifter. A new group of us went there hoping to level. Wasted so much materials to enchant e.t.c. Soon as we jumped in we realized it sucked. I mean not to discourage, as I said! But a group of 3 players couldn't gather with the spawns to kill. We couldn't see that great, to much lag and our shifter quit immediately after realizing, "Hey, I wasted 3 shifting shots by just transitioning areas."
I actually like it! But then i have never made a shifter before, but my Druid Archer kills it there.
_________________ E'Lyn†riss Emberrose-High Merchan† of the Emerald Rose Company-Retired E'Van†le Emberrose- Cleric of Helm High Watchman of the Emberwa†ch Knights
Went there with my group last night, unaware it was changed. As a level-apprpriate-to-content shifter, I could not contribute at all. Most of the paths are extremely narrow, meaning a minotaur, drider, and most other shapes can do nothing with a group and because of the goofy racial things with the climb (which exist for no reason I can fathom), I had to shift, fight, unshift, climb, repeat and was literally deadweight to my group not even a fifth of the map through. I left, since my character was utterly useless there.
Shame, guess I won't be making much money for potions anytime soon on that character.
I do have to say this.... I tried it, didn't really enjoy it. As Larsaan said, if this were a whole new area? It'd be welcomed and appreciated. I'm not fussed by the climbing, though, it adds little to nothing to the dungeon and seems to hinder shifters. What bothers me most is that the quest for bards was there. And now.. it's gone. That last level being completely empty made little sense to me.
On the positive? It's a pretty layout. the lighting, the setting, it's all very appropriate and fitting. That much, I do like about it.
Isn't it a good thing that there be a bit of variety in the server's dungeons, in terms of having classes which excel there or have difficulties?
No, because some of these things are mechanical limitations.
The bottom floor is just an oopsie I think, though!
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
You also can't leave the FGK room unless you deshift. Or the old beastmen portal. I think the goblin portal, too. And you can't go in the 'hole in the wall' side rooms in the Labyrinth.
The script is used a lot, it seems.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
My biggest issue is for future shifters or druids with limited uses of forms and abilities that are mwchanicaly losing out on stuff. They can't hunt there now for exp. Gold. Etc. We never made it past the first level there before we quit
You also can't leave the FGK room unless you deshift. Or the old beastmen portal. I think the goblin portal, too. And you can't go in the 'hole in the wall' side rooms in the Labyrinth.
The script is used a lot, it seems.
DM portals are by far the worst because your options are pester the DM to waste their time teleporting you every time you have to use a portal, and in some events when DMs want to make use of all the zones they have to give the event more depth it can be a lot of portal hopping.... or you have to unshift eating up your limited forms making you basically worthless.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
I like the new caves, it looks far more realistic. What I don't like about it is the long runs between mobs. Seems like there's less of them in a longer running dungeon. Otherwise, thank you to the Dev Team for their time and effort!
I loved the new layout and the added gruesomeness; vastly more realistic and atmospheric. The only things I didn't like were, as mentioned before, the long periods between mobs and that empty last level. Other than that it was a joy to wander through!
To be honest, I'm not sure how the new caves are more realistic. Less well-lit, sure (which I personally think makes the place less enjoyable, but that might be just me), but why is there suddenly an active volcano there, why aren't we turning to cinders and choking on fumes already on the second level, and how are we able to find cooler air below the magma pools?
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
Personally I like the area. Very atmospheric and revamped to go through. However, the only beef I have with it is that the transitions to move to and fro levels are barred from certain races, meaning casters or low-level shifters and the sort cannot move through the dungeon with ease as they rely on shape-changing not to die while they're leveling. Low-level shifters don't have infinite shapes, which are part of the demographic (meaning low-level characters in general) that should be catered to first and foremost since level 30 characters already have all the dungeons they need for farming. In my opinion, anyways. We need -some- dungeons left for leveling toons
The bottom floor is just an oopsie I think, though!
Also I, too, have lore concerns about the magma parts. I thought it all looked cool but... why? And then why is it cooler underneath that map, too?
The place only needs a few fixings and then it will be even awesomer. I love the revamp for the most part!
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Why would you mess with the one dungeon that -isn't- ridiculously annoying? Talk about fixing what isn't broke.
+1
I used to love the Beastmen Caves. Sorry, I just don't feel the same for the new one. I really do appreciate all the work everyone does on this server, but.... with so many other things that could use fixes? Why?
I hate to sound ungrateful, really, I do. But... were people complaining or asking for changes to the Beastmen? I just don't understand -why- it needed a change. And, in this case, it broke things, instead of making it better. Just a bit confused by this change.
My guess is it was an attempt to prevent such an efficient gold farm from existing. However... Beastmen are also good for leveling at certain levels, and the biggest problem is simply the type of transition used, which as explained, is apparently racist and hates shapeshifters.
Honestly I don't mind it, but since it is a problem for shapeshifters, that does need to be fixed by whoever is doing stuff these days.
Why would you mess with the one dungeon that -isn't- ridiculously annoying? Talk about fixing what isn't broke.
+1
I used to love the Beastmen Caves. Sorry, I just don't feel the same for the new one. I really do appreciate all the work everyone does on this server, but.... with so many other things that could use fixes? Why?
I hate to sound ungrateful, really, I do. But... were people complaining or asking for changes to the Beastmen? I just don't understand -why- it needed a change. And, in this case, it broke things, instead of making it better. Just a bit confused by this change.
+2
I really wasn't exaggerating when I said there's nothing about the change that I would consider an improvement. The old caves had better layout and pacing. Its one climbing section didn't artificially restrict shifters and allowed for a moment of RP and light slapstick without getting annoying. It didn't have a lava lake that made no sense and broke my suspension of disbelief. It had lighting that was much more visually pleasing. It wasn't covered in the symbols of an orcish god.
The only thing I'm kind of on the fence about is the flavour text, but only because I know it's the most subjective of my complaints. Personally I thought they were a bit too one-note. Not so much flavour text as "smell text". Since when were the beastmen so stinky anyway? This isn't WoW: Cataclysm, there's more to gnolls than poop. In any case, there's no reason you couldn't add flavour text to the old caves instead.
MisterLich wrote:
My guess is it was an attempt to prevent such an efficient gold farm from existing.
Why? Is gold farming even a problem? Even if it is, how is "make the server less fun and convenient" in any way a solution?
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
Did everyone forget that there is, quite literally, a volcano on the island, and always has been, in the Skull Crags? Magma veins run deep and quite far at times, and in fact we just had a plot where the thing erupted. I am a little surprised to see people say "and where did this lava come from?" so quickly after a plot where an actual volcano actually erupted.
The shifter plc polymorph thing is IMO an obnoxious bug and should be fixed, and never should have existed to begin with. How odd.
The change was not intended to kill the GP value of the place, it was purely intended to change up an area that hadn't been changed in probably over 10 years, outside minor creature edits.
The boss missing is an oversight and not intentional.
I couldn't care less if level 30's farm the place as long as thye're not displacing people using it to level. Beastmen has long held that distinction and that shouldn't change.
I haven't seen the area in game and so I have no comments on layout or farmability or cramped quarters, or cooler areas beneath magma, but that does sound a bit odd. Perhaps the last two floors could be flipped.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
There are more spawns in this iteration than the previous one. However, the spawn triggers are overlapped in a way that provides a much more randomized distribution of monsters than before. There will often be a gap between groups, but there are also several locations where two groups can spawn. In the end, it does balance out and is designed to keep players a little off balance as to when the next group is coming.
The polymorph thing is being removed as soon as we can dig it out of the code and have some time to do it.
The orc symbols thing is tied to the tileset. It can't change, so no point going on about it. It's not changing.
The descent from level 4 to level 5 is steeper than the tileset indicates and travels quite a ways down and away from the magma tubes, hence why it is cooler. We'll have to update the entry text to note that, apparently.
The narrowness is something you'll have to contend with. Sometimes passages are narrow.
Thanks for the feedback.
_________________ ~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear. ~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt. ~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
Did everyone forget that there is, quite literally, a volcano on the island, and always has been, in the Skull Crags? Magma veins run deep and quite far at times, and in fact we just had a plot where the thing erupted. I am a little surprised to see people say "and where did this lava come from?" so quickly after a plot where an actual volcano actually erupted.
Fair enough, although I still think it's a bit of a stretch considering how much distance there is between the Beastman Caves and the Skull Crags. The other points like "why isn't it killing us?" and "why would the beastmen live there?" still stand.
TormakSaber wrote:
The change was not intended to kill the GP value of the place, it was purely intended to change up an area that hadn't been changed in probably over 10 years, outside minor creature edits.
So... literally change for the sake of change? Fixing what wasn't broken?
Eurgiga wrote:
The orc symbols thing is tied to the tileset. It can't change, so no point going on about it. It's not changing.
Then you should probably have considered using a different tileset for this dungeon.
Eurgiga wrote:
The narrowness is something you'll have to contend with. Sometimes passages are narrow.
And sometimes a place is too much of a hassle to bother visiting.
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback.
Look, I'm sorry, okay? I don't want to disparage the work that's being put into making new areas, I really don't! If this was a brand new dungeon I probably wouldn't voice my complaints. In fact, I might not even have noticed them. However, this isn't me being ungrateful for a new area, this is me being frustrated that you took away a part of the server that I really enjoyed, and going by what you're saying you didn't even have a proper reason for doing so.
I just want the old caves back.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
The orc symbols thing is tied to the tileset. It can't change, so no point going on about it. It's not changing.
Then you should probably have considered using a different tileset for this dungeon.
Is the orc symbol really so nightmarishly out of place that your immersion breaks down into a quivering heap? We get that it's a problem, but "Well you should've done it in a different tileset" really rubs me the wrong way. The tileset was chosen for its available features and versatility above and beyond any other fitting tileset we had available. Telling us we should scrap that because you are fixated on a rather inconsequential detail is just plain nitpicking and unproductive. This is why I said there was no point going on about it.
Larsaan wrote:
Eurgiga wrote:
The narrowness is something you'll have to contend with. Sometimes passages are narrow.
And sometimes a place is too much of a hassle to bother visiting.
I'm really curious how it's a huge hassle, aside from the obvious and aforementioned climb checks (which are being fixed). There aren't a plethora of narrow passageways, at least none that are narrower than what was already in the previous caves. If you can point out specific spots that are giving you trouble, they might be fixable. We're not defending the place as perfect, everywhere has its flaws. We can work on improving what we can.
Larsaan wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback.
Look, I'm sorry, okay? I don't want to disparage the work that's being put into making new areas, I really don't! If this was a brand new dungeon I probably wouldn't voice my complaints. In fact, I might not even have noticed them. However, this isn't me being ungrateful for a new area, this is me being frustrated that you took away a part of the server that I really enjoyed, and going by what you're saying you didn't even have a proper reason for doing so.
I just want the old caves back.
One, I was being genuine when I said thank you for the feedback. We are fixing the problems that can be fixed, and we need players to report problems in order to fix them.
Two, and I say this in the utmost kindness: I can't do much for your frustration other than to honestly tell you to get over it. We'll fix what we can and tweak what we can't, but the revamp isn't going away. We're not deaf to concerns and will address them as we're able, but a lot of complaints in this thread are insubstantial and/or nitpicking to a silly degree. If you'll do us at least the small favour of dropping the ones we're bluntly saying can't be fixed, it would be appreciated as we move forward in fixing what we can.
_________________ ~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear. ~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt. ~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.
I liked the event being run for it. It was fun and made the world feel more alive with just a simple issue with Gnolls. I liked the details of the dead bodies and the weapons and I liked the flavor text (though was disappointed to not see more verity or have the huts lead to anything else)
2) Does it fulfill the assignment?
(Going with the idea that the assignment was to make the dungeon seem fresh or revamped to show some sort of change) No. I don't feel that this fits the assignment because it seems like a whole different place rather than a touch up or development or change. Granted, I believe a drastic change could have been made due to the plot of the intro event but it just didn't feel like it fit. It was like an odd puzzle piece that looked like it belonged to the puzzle but didn't quite fit.
3) Name one thing you would have done differently.
Rather than rebuilding an already working dungeon from scratch I would have tried to build a new dungeon area and introduced a new mob spawn for players to go after. The introduction to the Worgs and orc worts was a nice refreshing helper for that astranged lvl 10 party and I think it succeeded in it's purpose. While a completely new dungeon may have been better received by the community and would have over all offered more to the player base it would have been about the same amount of work if a bit more due to the balancing of a new mob type.
Parting advice...
I think the overall effort put in to this was good and I feel that some one spent a good deal of time on this with some form of interest. The effort is appreciated though I believe it could be best utilized in a different manner. My friendly humble suggestion would be if you are passionate about dungeon building try looking for a lvling group that's kinda missing from the general rout... a group range that's very hard to get through. If you can find a need and fill that need I believe you will get a much better reaction and feed back from the community as a whole. It will also give you a chance at some really unique story telling aspects and to help shape the world.
_________________
❤ Amia is Fun Again! ❤ #GreenisNotACreativeColour "It's easy to feel like a hero. It's a little harder to be one."
My biggest gripe is the Beastmen living in a now open lava flowing lair. Gnolls can't survive that, and playing a ranger, it has him stumped. I just want an IC reason, or the beastmen to be swapped to a mob that would actually reside there. I feel like I'm opening haribo and getting wine gums.
Fair enough, although I still think it's a bit of a stretch considering how much distance there is between the Beastman Caves and the Skull Crags. The other points like "why isn't it killing us?" and "why would the beastmen live there?" still stand.
There's really not that much. Take a look at the amia map sometime, and remember how far cavern systems underneath places ted to stretch and scatter.
Quote:
So... literally change for the sake of change? Fixing what wasn't broken?
Yups. Is there a problem with revamping area that haven't been changed in over 10 RL years? It was changed with associated plot, and has reasons for existing why it does: the Beastmen live in lava flows because their caves collapsed from underneath them due to seismic activity from the lava flos beneath. I'm not sure if you remember, but a great deal of the lower beastmen areas had steaming, smoking holes and vents - the lava underneath wand the hotter temperatures in general were long foreshadowed and have been there forever. Now you can go to them, though.
Gnolls don't live in caves in the very first place, so arguing about them living in DEEPER caves seems to miss the point: the Amian Beastmen (Which aren't necesarily Gnolls, being so estranged from their mainland cousins, although they may bear superifical similarities) live in caves, and now live in deeper caves where the ulitize the lava flows and adapt to the chaos of what happened to their pre-existing home. Unable to strike out into the greater Underdark for fear of being destroyed in land they're un-used to, and terrain they're not used to surviving, they now do what they can with what they got. Is that so unbelieveable?
If we simply left every area the same forever, I bet we'd get complaints about the place being boring. We strive to update and revamp areas, especially older ones, to 1: bring them into the current look and feel of the server, utilizing resources we have now that we may not have had reviously due to hak changes, and 2: to bring a dynamic feel to the world. The Beastmen and the Troll Caves are, graphically and locationally, two of the oldest areas on the server. They were long overdue for a revamp. Between the choice of adding an entirely new area (which takes alot more devwork and time and integration and balance to make areas, make monsters, make quests, add pces, add lore) we chose to modify and revamp an existing one, since currently we are focusing on server stability, but do not wish to completely forever hold all projects while doing so.
Quote:
Gnolls can't survive that, and playing a ranger, it has him stumped. I just want an IC reason, or the beastmen to be swapped to a mob that would actually reside there.
I hope the above answers that for you. Is there any reason why Beastmen, long apart from mainland gnolls, can't survive underground and in warmer temperatures, as the lair they've had for 10 RL years as suggested they've already done? The caverns are extremely well ventilated so the heat isn't going to be endlessly trapped
~~
All this said: I did take a hike through the areas, and especially some of the upper zones, I think, are a little cramped, and there's room in the map to utilize some blank space and maybe add a bit more openness to them. I can definitely see how it would be an issue for a party or larger summons.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
All this said: I did take a hike through the areas, and especially some of the upper zones, I think, are a little cramped, and there's room in the map to utilize some blank space and maybe add a bit more openness to them. I can definitely see how it would be an issue for a party or larger summons.
This is the sort of thing I was referring to above, in re: letting some dungeons be more difficult for some styles (shifters, anything that relies on big fat summons, etc.). Not that we're voting, but if we were, I'd say let the crampedness stand, and give a break to builds that excel at narrow tunnel fighting.
(The thing with the ladders, yeah, that needs to be fixed. )
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
The change was not intended to kill the GP value of the place, it was purely intended to change up an area that hadn't been changed in probably over 10 years, outside minor creature edits.
So... literally change for the sake of change? Fixing what wasn't broken?
Hey, change is good. Lighten up there, buddy. I applaud the team for wanting to change things and keep updating and making them interesting and fresh.
However, I will say that the team does seem to be falling into a bit of a trap. You seem to get 1 new tileset and then use that to replace everything of that type of theme so now all caves look like the 1 new cave tileset, etc. Just keep in mind it's okay to keep old tilesets for some things and use new ones as alternatives too - not every cave or group of hills *must* use or be updated to the newfangled tileset (then it just runs the risk of looking overused and the same all over). However, you can still change layout, add new mechanics, introduce new monster types with new abilities to keep things fresh. (Just be wary of introducing anything restrictive and exclusive, I've been noticing new things added that literally are only doable with certain class abilities that are a bit... silly. *coughsPhanecoughs*)
I don't really see why anyone would think the GP has gone down as everything else seemed the same to me including spawns and GP. I doubt GP farming is even a consideration honestly as GP really has little value in the economy at all and about the only thing it matters for are classes who have a potion-habit to be playable (fighters and such).
Having eleventy billion gold pieces literally means nothing - if lvl 30s are running through the place for gold, it's because they probably see it as little effort for coin enough to keep their upkeep (potions) to do other things. That's not a sign this dungeon's gold needs nerfing, that's a sign the designers should be considering why other content-appropriate dungeons aren't giving enough to do better than breaking even for those potion-chugging classes. If giants require you use X gold to survive, then going through their dungeon should give you X+Y gold by the time you finish - enough to resupply your upkeep *and* make gains.
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
I ran through again, and thought of something else. It's very linear; there is no doubt to which way you're going. It's not confusing enough, like a cavern system might be. It's still fun though!
There are more spawns in this iteration than the previous one. However, the spawn triggers are overlapped in a way that provides a much more randomized distribution of monsters than before. There will often be a gap between groups, but there are also several locations where two groups can spawn. In the end, it does balance out and is designed to keep players a little off balance as to when the next group is coming.
I actually prefer narrow areas in zones, because as a player I find myself using the choke points to manage encounters.
I think people are less bothered by samey-seeming spawns than they are about "dead time" between spawns. Dead time means running to the next spawn because buffs run on a timer and we want to level as fast as possible, whether due to limited availability or to make the leveling process feel less tedious. So spawn density is something that players value, and while I haven't counted and compared, it definitely felt as if the spawns in the old caves were much more dense. I don't know that variance within the spawns or their positions really adds much, as in optimal grinding conditions people are steamrolling them anyway, although the occasional double-spawn does shake things up a bit while offering a slightly higher rate of exp vs time.
Generally I find that two things make a zone interesting: some kind of mystery or story related to the zone or its inhabitants' existence, of which there are clues (either subtle or overt) hinting at its history and formation. Attention to such detail is something that people can appreciate, especially if they are the type who aren't all that interested in grinding and would take a lower exp gain just for a chance to see something new. And gimmicky little non-combat obstacles are alright too, especially if they tie into the area's history. Secondly, any sort of visual spectacle - the lowest level hunting zone in the Underdark has an array of colourful crystal formations and it's generally a well-liked zone. So many of our zones are quite drab, especially places like the Zanshibon wastes or the Ash Caverns, and while I suspect this has a lot to do with tileset limitations there are a handful of neat little zones which show that it could be done differently... y'know, like the quickling(? forget what they are) treehouse in Frozenfar, if only it was a bit bigger and less difficult for the exp. Hell what I miss most about the illithids is that the design of the zone is a change of pace from brown caves/sand and so on of what's left. Even the old, spacious sewer zones (especially the rat cult quest areas) had a little more to see than what we have now. Beastmen caves being what they are now means that after you finish grinding there and move onto brog orcs, you're going to another dark twisty caves tileset briefly broken up by a snowy landscapes and maybe the yuan-ti lair (which I hear is soon to be dealt with as well). I guess you could argue with me about whether or not we're moving towards sets of drab samey-coloured dungeons (though I will note that the "realistic" lighting of many of the new zones, such as the aforementioned sewers, caves or the vamp manor, are exercises in eye-strain), but the point remains that the more colour, vibrance and various between the zones, the better.
I'm not a dev, so you guys do what you gotta do and don't mind me, but I guess those are my suggestions for improvement, for whatever they're worth. For the record none of the problems I've pointed out really bother me, I just see them as things that could be improved on.
1. There is an update going in that will fix the climb checks for shifters.
2. We are fixing the spawns in the last level
3. There are several 'old' areas that are in need of updating to bring them more in line with the new stuff going in, this was one of them.
4. Dev investment in a redesign is in the range of 10-20 hours of work, for a new set of areas dev time invested is more like 70-100 hours.
5. Redesigning is an excellent way to learn how things are done, so it's good for newer dev team members to work on project like that.
6. Reading through all of these posts I can not help but hear - "The old areas we predictable with spawns always in the same spot, and had a map I knew by heart. Now you have messed my plan up and I can't zip through them for gold/xp as fast as I could before and you are killing my gold/xp per hour rate."
7. I had nothing to do with the areas except some technical help and the descriptive text triggers and I love them. I think they feel WAY cooler than the old areas.
6. Reading through all of these posts I can not help but hear - "The old areas we predictable with spawns always in the same spot, and had a map I knew by heart. Now you have messed my plan up and I can't zip through them for gold/xp as fast as I could before and you are killing my gold/xp per hour rate."
Setting aside that you're just putting unflattering words in our mouths (seriously, why didn't you just add "Waaaah!" at the end while you were at it?), you don't give any reasons for why anyone who'd think that is wrong. It's perfectly legitimate to complain when things are arbitrarily made less convenient.
In any case, I don't measure my leveling with a ruler and stopwatch, and I don't gold farm at all. The reason I prefer the old caves to the new isn't that I'm unable to cope with change, it's because the old caves had far more variation in both looks and layout. Each level looked different, and each level (except maybe the second) had at least one notable encounter spot, like beginning of the third level where you'd usually get ambushed (sometimes TPK'd) by two spawns, or the walled off spawn on the final level that could only be reached through a trapped side tunnel. The latter also had some gorgeous purple lighting effects. It was a great dungeon design, one of the best on the server even after all these years, and reducing it to a gp/xp dispenser like that is giving it so little credit I actually feel a bit offended.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
We'll have to agree to disagree there, the old area was stock NWN 1.0 with base lighting, stagnant spawns triggers and traps, and almost no extra flavor added. That trap and walled off area wa the only part that was out of the ordinary. The rest of the area looked like it was slapped together in 15 minutes. There was great detail work done on the spawns and they've been fine tuned to almost perfect balance, but the rest of the place... Mleh.
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But then i have never made a shifter before, but my Druid Archer kills it there. 
