AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Since my name came up in the other thread, but was locked before I could offer my insight, I felt it very necessary to offer input here... (Honestly, please reconsider not hastily locking threads before some reasonable time for discussion, otherwise why even call it a discussion forum?)

Instead of just ham-fistedly stripping characters for muling (a heavy-handed punishment that no doubt drives off some players who perhaps came from more... relaxed and easy-going games as well as requiring manual DM effort and time to oversee), I believe we should do something a bit more elegant - it should not be too hard, I should think, to simply have the server mechanically (through scripting) check if an item is being muled via it's tagging and if so simply take it off the receiver automatically with a red text reminder that muling is not permitted on this server and a link to the server rules.

Gentler measures would be wise as NWN is an aging game and we should want to retain as many players as we can. Plus automation frees up the staff to spend their online time more productively than looking for mulers stripping characters who probably will never return - a giant waste of time and energies on both sides of the encounter.

I think it was locked because it detailed a specific incident! Which is fair. Those can usually best be handled out of a community commentary, because it can be better for all parties unless it's a biased ruling and should be talked about!

But I still wholeheartedly approve of this thread and discussion! I often think the punishments/consequences could be of a scaled variety, especially if done as Eurgiga says and someone would be happy to code something. However it depends on whether someone is interested in doing that kind of work- this is a voluntary place and all jobs and work is done out of generous hearts. So there's that piece too.

Here's the question though, and the flaw in the plan I suggested:

What happens if an item gets sold/traded a couple times and then a character on the original owner's account buys it from a person? They just lost the item (and whatever they paid) in a legitimate transaction.

Has that ever happened before? Because if it hasn't, is it something to even worry about? Would we even know if it was? -- questions that would go along with that one

Looking at the item history we can fairly soldily determin if an event was a muling or an accidentally get back through various hands/trades.

It happened to me a couple times when I played Zelly during my Copper Industries tenure. The DMs always look at that stuff, in my personal experience.

Yeup it did happen before and at least the cases I know were always ruled in favor of the player when the manner of history was judged as accidental.

I'm referring to if it's an automated system. They'd loose it by no fault of their own unless the script checked all the history. Perhaps instead it could just alter the DMs somehow and they can look at it behind the scenes and either do nothing or do something.

That likely, while nifty, would cause heavy tax on the server.

Consider this would mean any item that is bough, picked or traded would be checked for history. Then the history would be checked for names. The the names would be checked for account and CDkey and compared. And that with every item every chara on the server gets. Pretty sure that would drive the server to the knee with script spamm, but I may be wrong, I am not exactly our biggest script expert here.

Pretty much what Amarice said, we do not need any more extra scans through everyones inventory than we already do.

And to build on what Naiv said, your idea would make anyone who has a rebuild lose their items automatically. Since the items went from You, To DM, To You. Which is 100% legit. But would also create the conditions required for auto losing the item.

The cost of this is so grave and high to make certain no one does this. Despite this however, people still do.

Yeah I figured it would be a drain, even if it somehow only fired on PC to PC trades.

And I didn't even think of that, Mahtan. Good point!

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

That likely, while nifty, would cause heavy tax on the server.

Consider this would mean any item that is bough, picked or traded would be checked for history. Then the history would be checked for names. The the names would be checked for account and CDkey and compared. And that with every item every chara on the server gets. Pretty sure that would drive the server to the knee with script spamm, but I may be wrong, I am not exactly our biggest script expert here.

I know this is not true, because this is not an original idea. I've seen it on a comparable server with as big a playerbase as ours. So no, if done right I know it works just fine on comparable servers.

As for losing the item? Eh. *shrugs* That's a featherweight consequence weighed against A) DMs manually having to stop what they're doing when they notice something to act and wasting their time and energy to now deal with this, B) stripping (and likely losing a player) entirely, and C) DMs spending any amount of time Ruleslawyering as opposed to creating fun or helping others with legitimate, actual problems.

An armor was lost. Boohoo. Buy another.

Quote:

I know this is not true, because this is not an original idea. I've seen it on a comparable server with as big a playerbase as ours. So no, if done right I know it works just fine on comparable server

I don't care to see anything like this done until the crippling stability issues with the server are resolved, personally. Until then, I'll continue catching them manually. It's really not as much effort as you make it out to be: The items always stand out, and I can cehck them with a glance while watching RP or answering requests.

Not to mention the issue with PC merchants and rebuilds makes this enough of a hassle to where I don't feel it's worth the time, especially when we have bigger fish to fry, imho, although the suggestion is appreciated.

MightNMagic wrote:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

That likely, while nifty, would cause heavy tax on the server.

Consider this would mean any item that is bough, picked or traded would be checked for history. Then the history would be checked for names. The the names would be checked for account and CDkey and compared. And that with every item every chara on the server gets. Pretty sure that would drive the server to the knee with script spamm, but I may be wrong, I am not exactly our biggest script expert here.

I know this is not true, because this is not an original idea. I've seen it on a comparable server with as big a playerbase as ours. So no, if done right I know it works just fine on comparable servers.

As for losing the item? Eh. *shrugs* That's a featherweight consequence weighed against A) DMs manually having to stop what they're doing when they notice something to act and wasting their time and energy to now deal with this, B) stripping (and likely losing a player) entirely, and C) DMs spending any amount of time Ruleslawyering as opposed to creating fun or helping others with legitimate, actual problems.

An armor was lost. Boohoo. Buy another.

You do understand that posting inflammatory responses is only going to make the atmosphere in this thread worse, yes?

I don't really consider anything I posted inflammatory. Merely dismissive of counter-arguments since from my point of view they were far less than the gains to be made in my opinion.

I mean, I think most would agree that losing an armor piece pales in comparison to an entire inventory and very possibly desire to play here, as well as freeing up our DMs to DM and not play stick instead of carrot.

Regardless, I thought it was a suggestion that needed suggesting as it works well elsewhere.

Why not just do a systematic check instead? As in, once per reset/day it checks items in every PCs inventory then matches the accounts between the current and last owner (As opposed to pulling up the entire owner history) and then it removes the item if their accounts match.

Tangental question while at it... if you sell item to an NPC merchant on char A. And then buy the same thing from the same npc merchant later on char B, is that considered muling as well? (just curious)

Yes. You can't knowingly have items go from one PC to another whether from dropping it, selling to an NPC, or having a second party help you.

Almost futzed that up once, sold something on a char to Hil'rash and later came to the shop with another. There was two of that item and bought both... then went oh shit and remembered selling it hah. Sold them both back just in case :<

Wanna know something interesting? I can spawn PCs straight from the vault as NPCs (I can even give them an AI) which also includes everything they have on them.

So could I also can write a program that could scan the entire vault and track every single item that has ever been stored on the players and look for naughty words.

...I wonder how many Thayan items still exists.

Terra_777 wrote:

Wanna know something interesting? I can spawn PCs straight from the vault as NPCs (I can even give them an AI) which also includes everything they have on them.

So could I also can write a program that could scan the entire vault and track every single item that has ever been stored on the players and look for naughty words.

...I wonder how many Thayan items still exists.

but will it blend?!?!?!?

nah seriously though i think scripting server maintenance should be focused on stability as tormak stated. this isnt a big issue, the issue is the viciousness of punishment if you perceive it that way

Terra_777 wrote:

Wanna know something interesting? I can spawn PCs straight from the vault as NPCs (I can even give them an AI) which also includes everything they have on them.

So could I also can write a program that could scan the entire vault and track every single item that has ever been stored on the players and look for naughty words.

...I wonder how many Thayan items still exists.

Nej Terra, fy :p

Must admit, I have done a 180 on the subject of muling being Bad For The Server, and now see its prohibition as a pain in the arse that keeps my new epics off the RP grounds and in the bosses' caves. Solo, of course, since the tweak to the +5 loot roll never arrived.

If I could mule, I'd never have to run another boss again, since I've got the kit for just about any character type scattered among my 30-odd epics. I could just grind them up superfast with stacks of Summon IX scrolls, hit 30 and then RP with them until I got bored after a few months and moved on like I always do.

The obvious argument against that is 'stop being a short-attention-span chap who doesn't consider a character ready to RP until it has a decent endgame gearset' but I can't. Trust me, I've been trying for just shy of ten years.

I think we should be able to buy in-game epic gear with DC Coins somehow. A lot of characters can't justify running in circles murdering sentient beings to steal loot off their corpses, so boss grinding turns into a semi-ooc activity anyway.

The punishment for muling seems unnecessarily harsh and, as we read in the OP's post in the last topic, definitely pushes away new players. Why not just strip the item/items in question?

The more stuff you get free, the less you have to do, the more you stand around doing nothing. Be careful what you wish for.

Krin wrote:

I think we should be able to buy in-game epic gear with DC Coins somehow. A lot of characters can't justify running in circles murdering sentient beings to steal loot off their corpses, so boss grinding turns into a semi-ooc activity anyway.

The punishment for muling seems unnecessarily harsh and, as we read in the OP's post in the last topic, definitely pushes away new players. Why not just strip the item/items in question?

Only taking the items they muled means they still got to use the items to get to where they are now. Essentially, it's not a punishment at all: They muled them, broke the rules, used them to their advantage and benefit, and we only take the bits they moved over, and nothing to do with the actual point of why they muled it in the first place.

That's why you lose everything.

TormakSaber wrote:

Only taking the items they muled means they still got to use the items to get to where they are now. Essentially, it's not a punishment at all: They muled them, broke the rules, used them to their advantage and benefit, and we only take the bits they moved over, and nothing to do with the actual point of why they muled it in the first place.

That's why you lose everything.

Then why not remove all the extra items/gold they made along with levels when they muled the item/s? Put them back to where they were prior as a first warning? Just throwing my idea in this.

I kind of agree... during my newb-stupid muling incident, the character in question was about level 14 or so, and working with mostly store-bought +3 gear, and got stripped of items but not gold. I felt like it was kind of a dire punishment in that moment, but like an hour later I realized I still had all my money and could just go buy mostly identical store-bought gear, and it really didn't turn out to be much of an imposition at all.

Hmmm....I dunno. I still think that it is not a punishment. By the time a newbie character gets to level 14 the player can earn a few DCs to compensate the loss, should the character get stripped. Muling is basically an exploit of the game mechanism, and I cannot see how easing the rules would make the server any better. Here you are just questioning the DM authority and I feel that won't help anyone.
Folks here already question the rules, the setting, the lore...just look at the request forum really and the kind of arguments people have with the team.

Liz wrote:

I kind of agree... during my newb-stupid muling incident, the character in question was about level 14 or so, and working with mostly store-bought +3 gear, and got stripped of items but not gold. I felt like it was kind of a dire punishment in that moment, but like an hour later I realized I still had all my money and could just go buy mostly identical store-bought gear, and it really didn't turn out to be much of an imposition at all.

You should have lost your gold too. That you didn't was a dm oversight. You lucked out.

Oh, well, never mind me, then.

Move along, nothing to see here.

I don't really see whats wrong with the current muling system, we're all ostensibly adults on the server and trading with alts who cannot have any interaction with each other is shady at best anyway. But threads like this make me sad that not everyone takes metagamming as seriously as I do at times.

Things happen, items get bought and sold all the time. But that's far different than the slippery slope of having an alt buy and sell from another alt, no matter how you slice it, they are not supposed to interact, so how can it possibly not be metagamming? And once you go to the trouble of finding and employing an intermediary, you're deep into metagamming the whole situation.

My first week on the server, I ran into a player in Cordor who would walk up and have you "hold" items for a few minutes. Then another player would come by and give you some gold and take the items. Turns out it was the same player with an alt. Learning the server rules by being yanked into a cooldown room and stripped by DM Hotpants was both entertaining and violating. Just give it all a rest and stop using alts to fund your next character, seems pretty simple. Sure it's a pain in the ass sometimes, but there are downsides to having 50 alts...

I do think that completely stripping a character is incredibly harsh for first-time offenders, whose grasp on the rules may be somewhat shaky. I know I once muled a Book of Transmutation when I was fairly new (the character hasn't been played in years, mind, and never got past level 6 anyway).

Confiscate the item and give the person a warning, I say. Maybe set a fine based on how much gold they have. If they do it again, however, then by all means strip them.

While that certainly sounds reasonable, whose bookkeeping would the repeat offenders find themselves on? Are the DM's to be required to conduct an investigation on rules violations that are posted?

Then there is the nature of rules violators and the internet. Most players are not complete fools, how long until players realize that they can have a free pass and then take it upon themselves to make it really worthwhile by stripping the gear of a 5 year old level 30 and starting over...

Draconian punishments are harsh for a reason, it's not exactly meant to be fair except in applicability to all. In the end, gear is replaceable, and no character that has been stripped that I know of has been ruined for any length of time, and the players involved are very much less likely to transgress again.

Bravo21 wrote:

While that certainly sounds reasonable, whose bookkeeping would the repeat offenders find themselves on? Are the DM's to be required to conduct an investigation on rules violations that are posted?

Then there is the nature of rules violators and the internet. Most players are not complete fools, how long until players realize that they can have a free pass and then take it upon themselves to make it really worthwhile by stripping the gear of a 5 year old level 30 and starting over...

Draconian punishments are harsh for a reason, it's not exactly meant to be fair except in applicability to all. In the end, gear is replaceable, and no character that has been stripped that I know of has been ruined for any length of time, and the players involved are very much less likely to transgress again.

Yes. So much yes.

Wait, what? Who said anything about a "free pass"?

People who break the rules pathologically are probably the usual suspects; I'd make the wild speculuation that the rest of the hardened criminals are just unsuspecting n00bs not knowing they are doing something wrong. If my speculation is to be believed, the usual suspects would be indicted multiple times on the same charges anyway and n00bish mistakes don't call for draconian punishments. These "repeat offenders" could be given harsher punishments, whereas a simple no would suffice for the n00bs and they shouldn't suffer for some hard-ass law enforcement.

And I must say, Uce makes a very good point in all his mother wit. Why are the altitistic people being punished with a purgatory of grind for being how they are?

Not reading the rules is one thing, making noob mistakes is fine. But when someone willingly abuses the game and the server mechanism (like in the case of muling, because that is what you do when you are muling) and doesn't feel that abusing server mechanism might be a wrong thing to do, then I do not know what to say.

It indicates that the said player probably won't care about the rules even if he reads them.

Larsaan wrote:

Wait, what? Who said anything about a "free pass"?

The aspect of being given leniency for first offences implies less than total justice for the offence. An extension of the proposed discussion on what would be a "fair" punishment would likely include a non-punishment of some sort as no one would agree to even a stiff lesser one. So, thereby setting up a free pass just by saying you didn't know about the rule. And since a DM would not be able to prove what a player did or did not know, it's there for the unscrupulous players to use.

Just like getting a speeding ticket, that you didn't see the posted signage, does not absolve one of the gilt of the crime. Make no mistake, justice is not fair, but is at times required when dealing with human beings as they would otherwise not act in accordance with societies, or in this case, the game communities wishes.

TormakSaber wrote:

Krin wrote:

I think we should be able to buy in-game epic gear with DC Coins somehow. A lot of characters can't justify running in circles murdering sentient beings to steal loot off their corpses, so boss grinding turns into a semi-ooc activity anyway.

The punishment for muling seems unnecessarily harsh and, as we read in the OP's post in the last topic, definitely pushes away new players. Why not just strip the item/items in question?

Only taking the items they muled means they still got to use the items to get to where they are now. Essentially, it's not a punishment at all: They muled them, broke the rules, used them to their advantage and benefit, and we only take the bits they moved over, and nothing to do with the actual point of why they muled it in the first place.

That's why you lose everything.

Which is why a simple script like what I suggested is elegant. Muled items are taken on the spot, immediately and automatically - a reminder to read the rules issued.

No gains made. No manpower or time wasted. No DMs hovering around looking at item genealogy‎ instead of doing something positive and fun. No one running a script that scours the entire server vault and heaping lag onto the server's uptime.

The offender loses the muled item, gets a warning. Game continues without blinking. Nobody flips out and ragequits over losing -everything- because they're n00b self moved some weight reduction bags from more established character A to low-level character B.

It's done on Arelith and a few other servers, I tested it there easily enough. Simply done and reasonable.

In this day and age with so many newer, flashier games sucking away NWN's overall playerbase, policies that work towards player retention should be paramount.

I suppose that could work. However, I'd feel better if I were treated as an adult with an actual conscience and not a child who needs an automated police system to be fair and play a game. If the rest of the community agrees that an automated system is best then that's what will be, but I feel it's not really needed, that's all.

Uberuce wrote:

Must admit, I have done a 180 on the subject of muling being Bad For The Server, and now see its prohibition as a pain in the arse that keeps my new epics off the RP grounds and in the bosses' caves. Solo, of course, since the tweak to the +5 loot roll never arrived.

If I could mule, I'd never have to run another boss again, since I've got the kit for just about any character type scattered among my 30-odd epics. I could just grind them up superfast with stacks of Summon IX scrolls, hit 30 and then RP with them until I got bored after a few months and moved on like I always do.

The obvious argument against that is 'stop being a short-attention-span chap who doesn't consider a character ready to RP until it has a decent endgame gearset' but I can't. Trust me, I've been trying for just shy of ten years.

You lasted a long time on Uber(ruce) the drunk bard, You should consider going back to him, if you played him for that long there must be something you liked about it

Muling: A Better Solution

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