AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - Evil Faction Feedback- CS

I'm glad you opened this thread for feedback. I wish to offer some from someone who plays a character who is evil.

When your faction plans to assault NPCs or a Town. I suggest firstly to do investigative research on how you will attack. Write out a plan and the roles of everyone in the organization to show you've done research IG. Take screenshots and send them to the DM team. Asking permission if you can do this, or that. Meaning set up your roleplay you've done and ask the DMs if you can get a event approved where you can make a forward assault. Instead of just asking a DM ig without any investment.

It's very simple feedback, and I hope you take it into consideration. Doing what's listed above goes a lot further then pestering a DM IG and having no RP to back it up. On a smaller scale IG you can ask a DM to handle a small event. That leads to some violence. But your target and reason must be better then attempting to cause chaos and destruction.

We do not desire to be mindless PvP bots, we do not encourage that style of play. On the same note however, we do not intend to shy away from it when it can be used to further our goals.

I'll be perfectly blunt here, because I think a conversation like this is best served by just straightforward honesty. I hope you guys can accept it in the constructive spirit it is intended, because I'd desperately love for a flat-out evil faction to actually get somewhere on this server, and I had a lot of hope for you guys, and would like to continue to.

(And of course, everything here is just my opinion, others' mileage may vary.)

Not encouraging it is not enough. You need to actively *discourage* it. Shying away from PvP is a *good* thing. What I want to see from an evil faction is one that finds ways to accomplish its goals without much, if any, PvP.

PvP is an IC tool for creating OOC conflict. It would be nice if that's not the way it worked, if people could detach their egos from their characters, and keep IC events IC, and accept PvP gracefully as just a natural part of playing DnD alongside other players with divergent tastes and opinions and goals. But that's not the way things work out, in my observation. Like, seriously, almost never. PvP just makes people feel like you've shat on their face. It should be reserved for endgame, big-picture moments, not used as a tool for establishing a reputation as a bunch of hardcase badasses who aren't to be messed with. A successful evil faction needs to be especially sensitive about managing its public image. Way, waaaay more sensitive about it than a good faction needs to be. A paladin can just reflexively stomp a necromancer and be adored for it IC: that character is seen as a crusader, a force for shiny goodness and justice. A blackguard cannot do the same: that character is seen as a mindless thug PvP whore. Unfair? Yes, absolutely. But it's fact, and you need to accept it and adapt to it. Railing against the double-standard, even if the complaint is justified, will get you nowhere, because it's never, ever going to change. If you can't accept that an evil character needs to be a thousand times more careful than a good character, then evil in a multiplayer environment is probably not for you.

You can't have it all. The server mentality does need to change if you want evil or this thread will just die off and come back in 3 more months.

Accepting that the system is flawed and calling for people to play evil anyways is exactly what has resulted from the last dozens of these threads. The only way forward is to reject the idea that you said. Only then will people want to invest time into it.

That's great, seriously. I really, genuinely admire that desire towards transparency and communication, and I think if you stick with it, it will go a long looooong way towards smoothing your path forward.

So, what *are* your goals? Other than just "be a successful evil faction."

Here's the reason I ask: The moment my opinion of the Celestial Staircase faction began to change from cautious optimism to something a bit more cynical was when I heard about their treatment of Rastin. It seemed purposeless to me, like PvP and torture just for the sake of PvP and torture. I couldn't connect it in my mind to any larger purpose: why Rastin? He's just some random guy who hangs around the Dale. There's nothing I could see that you guys gained by torturing Rastin, other than just a reputation as being the sort of people who torture people.

What was the larger IC goal which was served by those instances of PvP?

Generally there is also some bigger goal, just because you cant see the meaning to an individual event does not mean THEY didn't have a reason. Just assuming all PVP is without a goal unless you can see it will have you always seeing "Pointless" PVP.

Simply put, we were informed he had information we desired, so we took him off and tortured him until we were satisfied with his answers.

kolde wrote:

Simply put, we were informed he had information we desired, so we took him off and tortured him until we were satisfied with his answers.

See, that's a thing I can sort of kind of get behind. I don't mean to say that you should spoil everyone on your specific moment-to-moment tactics, but even just that vague semi-answer does help reframe your actions in my mind a bit. And since you're asking peoples' opinions and advice in this thread, I'll go a step farther: as long as you guys are going for "openly evil" anyways, I think it was a mistake for the culprits of that PvP to deny their involvement IC. They weren't fooling anyone either IC or OOC anyways, and if they'd said IC "Oh, yeah, someone said he knew something we wanted to know, so we nabbed him and put the hurt on him to get it," they'd have accomplished IC the same transparency and communication you're trying to aim for in this OOC thread.

Railing against the double-standard, even if the complaint is justified, will get you nowhere, because it's never, ever going to change. If you can't accept that an evil character needs to be a thousand times more careful than a good character, then evil in a multiplayer environment is probably not for you.

Own up to your evil, stand behind it, announce it, proclaim it, love it! "We hereby proclaim that our torture of the Kohlinger agent Rastin was a massive success, and the information he gave up under torture is now serving the unthwartable purposes of the Knights of the Celestial Stairway, mwhahahahahaaaa!!!"

The biggest problem I have with evil factions or more accurately a certain mind set some of the players in those factions is that its ok to powerbuild for pvp then pick any fight with rp build characters even when that fight is meaningless to the faction and the only justification for it is ICly "because im evil" and OOCly "because I can because I have the token rp to make it legal".

As Liz said earlier I feel that evil factions and players would be better served policing themselves against these kinds of players, combat for event purposes or under DM supervision to push forward a plot or plan of some kind is one thing but no RPer should be happy with munchkins.

From a Salandran point of view (as my main is one) I would love to be involved in more moral dilemmas that can come with being in a neutral faction, sadly so far all I have seen is pvp munchkins decapitating my character and her friends outside bendir then going on to have candyfloss with the Hin. None of whom bat an eye lol.

P.S. I am fully aware that some players and DMs would rather I bury my head in the sand and stop pointing out that powerbuilding and RP servers should not really be mixed but as it is a legitimate point of view I will keep arguing that character builds should reflect the RP and IC not the OOC spread sheets for maximum hack and slash. I have D3 for that

P.P.S. Due to new job I don't have much time to play Amia at the moment but if there is anything the Salandrans' can do to get involved with ebil plots and schemes (or good guys for that matter) please feel free to PM me on this forum.

I actually rather like this, but its going to take walking quite a line there of letting people know what we're doing without giving it away and spoiling something before it hatches. Regardless I'll bring it up to the others, and hopefully we'll think of something.

And please do not make assumptions about what we were doing, and how much prep was put into it, nor the circumstances of the situation. But I will state once more: We were NOT, and are NOT trying to attack a city.

kolde wrote:

Little off topic advice! If you're even on the outskirts of a city and there's a fight, it falls under "you were attacking the city". Doesn't much matter what your side is. There's a fight, you're sieging the city. Don't do it either, they'll perma your ass so quick. Proof that you will fail, assuming we are understanding that any fight within a cities borders is attacking the city? here(I know it's not much, just a piece I kept for lols). This bit is from when the Thayans(me included) were telling Kholingen to back off our(thayan) lands, just on the very tippy tip edge of their(khol's) borders, literally on top of the transition point, way far from the city itself. A point we really didn't think counted as a perma city death zone, or fuuuuck we wouldn't have fought. We didn't even throw the first blows. We would have stayed on our side of the transition and waited.

So take this as biased. Take it as hijacking your topic to cry about my woes. Take it as whatever. Just thought to give the warning b/c of the grief it caused us. I'm still na+ about it to this day. I get heartburn and shit when I think about it. I don't want that for anyone else. Except Kanye West.

peace

No offence dude but if you're claiming that your faction legitimately attempted to claim sovereignty over an actual sovereign power's territory (yes even the "tippy edge", because Kohl territory has a border with Winya's and THE SEA) then yes you were by definition an invading presence.

// Question: Which territory had you been doing this in?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/offence

l2dictionary

In regards to the incident between Kohl and the Thayans, I had thought I'd apologised for the way it went down to all I could reach. In any case, I am sorry for how it went down, for what it may be worth now. I was ill prepared for a dust off, and wasn't expecting such stiff resistance to simply closing off a passageway that gave such a nefarious place a gateway to Kohlingens territory. That, in the end, was all Kohlingen wanted to do. It was only the resistance they met that changed things in the end.

Coupled with sucking at the mechanical side of controlling the NPC's and figuring out how to do it all so the PC's allied with them would have them on their side with the lag I had with the madness going on, it all went bad very quickly. I'm not sure lingering on it will do any good, but if I could figure out a way to have done that whole affair better I would.

Grymia wrote:

// Question: Which territory had you been doing this in?

Section of the quagmires with the empty temple, bought it from some mercs.

This thread is not about the Thayans vs Kohlingen.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

This thread is not about the Thayans vs Kohlingen.

Please and thank you, please don't make this thread about your own grievances guys.

In reality, the idea that there are groups of players willing to generate conflict on there own and not immediately turning to DMs to do anything fun is something I really like to see. I try to be as omnipresent as I can, but I can never be here 24/7. It's a great relief, to me, to see player initiative like this. I fully encourage you guys to keep rocking on, and I'm going to help as much as I can to guide you in a manner I feel conducive to both you and the rest of the community. I'm sorry that it's such a rocky road, but resistance is always to be expected when you're playing the bad guys. You just have to make some damn good lemonade, and you won't be alone when the lemons are thrown!

This thread is not about the Thayans vs Kohlingen.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 19:09 PM ]
Post subject:	Evil Faction Feedback- CS
So, we've all been keeping up with the forum thread constructive criticism. It seems to keep pointing (sometimes subtly, sometimes not ) to the need for a place for feedback on what people expect and desire from an evil faction. To begin I would like to explain a bit how this faction that many have taken to calling the Celestial Stairway/Case came to be. Basically, it was myself and another player lamenting the lack of open conflict on Amia. We decided we were going to make a mercantile faction at first as a cover, then do subversive, quiet evil. However, as we talked more and planned on what faction goals and motivations would be we began to shy away from that. Some new players to Amia began to talk with us, and slowly our idea evolved into wanting to make something more open. We desired a faction that could not be as thematically restricted as a major religious organization or city would be, we wanted something that new players could jump right into and that many different play styles could mingle with. The entire point of our faction became not what our characters desired (Though that obviously still remains), but how we could allow as many people to feel welcome and bring their own ideas in. We made this faction with the hopes of bringing more RP and conflict to the server as a whole. To affect other players and give good something to strain against, and so with those ideas we began making PCs. Now, I've heard many say that they do not see goals, or motivations. I assure you we have many. We do not desire to be mindless PvP bots, we do not encourage that style of play. On the same note however, we do not intend to shy away from it when it can be used to further our goals. We are a diverse group of different philosophies of evil people, and we work together to help each other achieve our personal goals. We are set up, both IC and OOC as sort of an odd, twisted democracy where each of our official members word is just as important as any others. In the event we do not agree, we vote on how we will proceed, all in the name of the greater good of survival. We've our hands in creating and building, plots to create mass havoc, personal quests for our players, and subversive underhanded plots. So if you do not see what we're aiming at, its because we've so much going on. Now all that said and a brief overview, as was stated prior, we formed this faction to create conflict. We made this faction to give a face to evil on Amia, and to allow other players something to either struggle and fight against, or destroy. With this in mind, and with the suggestions from the other thread: *We are asking for constructive feedback*. That said: If you have something specific you want your character involved in, send one of us a tell, do not post it here. I personally dislike scripted RP, but if that is what it takes to get people involved, then so be it. Furthermore, if you want a PC to be involved with us, also, let us know. We are very open to new players, and so long as you are responsible and do not break rules we are very open and accepting both OOC and IC. The only flavor of evil that might have issue are ones on the heavy chaos side. Try to keep this thread flame clean, and do not start another discussion on how evil cannot exist or succeed. We simply want to know what the rest of the playerbase desires as far as an antagonist goes. What do you want more of, less of, ideas for new things that would get your PCs involved in the stories we are trying to create.

Author:	LibrisMortis_666 [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 19:31 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
I'm glad you opened this thread for feedback. I wish to offer some from someone who plays a character who is evil. When your faction plans to assault NPCs or a Town. I suggest firstly to do investigative research on how you will attack. Write out a plan and the roles of everyone in the organization to show you've done research IG. Take screenshots and send them to the DM team. Asking permission if you can do this, or that. Meaning set up your roleplay you've done and ask the DMs if you can get a event approved where you can make a forward assault. Instead of just asking a DM ig without any investment. It's very simple feedback, and I hope you take it into consideration. Doing what's listed above goes a lot further then pestering a DM IG and having no RP to back it up. On a smaller scale IG you can ask a DM to handle a small event. That leads to some violence. But your target and reason must be better then attempting to cause chaos and destruction.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:03 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
LibrisMortis_666 wrote: I'm glad you opened this thread for feedback. I wish to offer some from someone who plays a character who is evil. When your faction plans to assault NPCs or a Town. I suggest firstly to do investigative research on how you will attack. Write out a plan and the roles of everyone in the organization to show you've done research IG. Take screenshots and send them to the DM team. Asking permission if you can do this, or that. Meaning set up your roleplay you've done and ask the DMs if you can get a event approved where you can make a forward assault. Instead of just asking a DM ig without any investment. It's very simple feedback, and I hope you take it into consideration. Doing what's listed above goes a lot further then pestering a DM IG and having no RP to back it up. On a smaller scale IG you can ask a DM to handle a small event. That leads to some violence. But your target and reason must be better then attempting to cause chaos and destruction. Please do not turn this into the last thread. And please do not make assumptions about what we were doing, and how much prep was put into it, nor the circumstances of the situation. But I will state once more: *We were NOT, and are NOT trying to attack a city.* This thread is to see what other players want to see from an evil faction, how they would like to be involved, and anything we can improve upon in regards to interactions with other players. That said, DMs are, of course, welcome to post as well about their side.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:18 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
I'll be perfectly blunt here, because I think a conversation like this is best served by just straightforward honesty. I hope you guys can accept it in the constructive spirit it is intended, because I'd desperately love for a flat-out evil faction to actually get somewhere on this server, and I had a lot of hope for you guys, and would like to continue to. (And of course, everything here is just my opinion, others' mileage may vary.) kolde wrote: We do not desire to be mindless PvP bots, we do not encourage that style of play. On the same note however, we do not intend to shy away from it when it can be used to further our goals. Not encouraging it is not enough. You need to actively discourage it. Shying away from PvP is a good thing. What I want to see from an evil faction is one that finds ways to accomplish its goals without much, if any, PvP. PvP is an IC tool for creating OOC conflict. It would be nice if that's not the way it worked, if people could detach their egos from their characters, and keep IC events IC, and accept PvP gracefully as just a natural part of playing DnD alongside other players with divergent tastes and opinions and goals. But that's not the way things work out, in my observation. Like, seriously, almost never. PvP just makes people feel like you've shat on their face. It should be reserved for endgame, big-picture moments, not used as a tool for establishing a reputation as a bunch of hardcase badasses who aren't to be messed with. A successful evil faction needs to be especially sensitive about managing its public image. Way, waaaay more sensitive about it than a good faction needs to be. A paladin can just reflexively stomp a necromancer and be adored for it IC: that character is seen as a crusader, a force for shiny goodness and justice. A blackguard cannot do the same: that character is seen as a mindless thug PvP whore. Unfair? Yes, absolutely. But it's fact, and you need to accept it and adapt to it. Railing against the double-standard, even if the complaint is justified, will get you nowhere, because it's never, ever going to change. If you can't accept that an evil character needs to be a thousand times more careful than a good character, then evil in a multiplayer environment is probably not for you.

Author:	RaveN [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:22 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
I completely disagree with the last thing you said Liz. Other servers, games anything really have obvious examples where that isn't the case. Ravenloft is the obvious one.

AMIA ARCHIVE https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/

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Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:25 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Completely agreed, FWings, and if we were playing Ravenloft, I wouldn't have given that advice. I'm saying the things I think an evil faction needs to do on Amia. Entirely situational. Our server culture is not going to change, or at least it's not going to change quickly or soon. But we do need evil factions, quickly and soon, which means they'll have to find a way to fit in to the circumstances as they stand, not as we wish they could be.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:26 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Liz wrote: I'll be perfectly blunt here, because I think a conversation like this is best served by just straightforward honesty. I hope you guys can accept it in the constructive spirit it is intended, because I'd desperately love for a flat-out evil faction to actually get somewhere on this server, and I had a lot of hope for you guys, and would like to continue to. (And of course, everything here is just my opinion, others' mileage may vary.) Not encouraging it is not enough. You need to actively discourage it. Shying away from PvP is a good thing. What I want to see from an evil faction is one that finds ways to accomplish its goals without much, if any, PvP. PvP is an IC tool for creating OOC conflict. It would be nice if that's not the way it worked, if people could detach their egos from their characters, and keep IC events IC, and accept PvP gracefully as just a natural part of playing DnD alongside other players with divergent tastes and opinions and goals. But that's not the way things work out, in my observation. Like, seriously, almost never. PvP just makes people feel like you've shat on their face. It should be reserved for endgame, big-picture moments, not used as a tool for establishing a reputation as a bunch of hardcase badasses who aren't to be messed with. A successful evil faction needs to be especially sensitive about managing its public image. Way, waaaay more sensitive about it than a good faction needs to be. A paladin can just reflexively stomp a necromancer and be adored for it IC: that character is seen as a crusader, a force for shiny goodness and justice. A blackguard cannot do the same: that character is seen as a mindless thug PvP whore. Unfair? Yes, absolutely. But it's fact, and you need to accept it and adapt to it. Railing against the double-standard, even if the complaint is justified, will get you nowhere, because it's never, ever going to change. If you can't accept that an evil character needs to be a thousand times more careful than a good character, then evil in a multiplayer environment is probably not for you. Well. I certainly see where you are coming from. But some circumstances fairly well require pvp, especially when you've people following you and/or trying to spy on you. We will not be shying away from it when the need arises. Frankly, if people are too immature to separate IC conflict from OOC conflict, then I really do not care about that player as a whole anyway, and will likely do whatever I can to avoid them in the future. I have played on plenty of servers where pvp was used quite efficiently to enhance RP, and I would like to think Amia could be quite the same. Its about maturity, respect and understanding we are all here to create a story together.

Author:	RaveN [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:28 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
You can't have it all. The server mentality does need to change if you want evil or this thread will just die off and come back in 3 more months. Accepting that the system is flawed and calling for people to play evil anyways is exactly what has resulted from the last dozens of these threads. The only way forward is to reject the idea that you said. Only then will people want to invest time into it.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:38 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Faded Wings wrote: You can't have it all. The server mentality does need to change if you want evil or this thread will just die off and come back in 3 more months. Accepting that the system is flawed and calling for people to play evil anyways is exactly what has resulted from the last dozens of these threads. The only way forward is to reject the idea that you said. Only then will people want to invest time into it. That is the point of this thread. We want our intentions known OOC. Yes, our PCs might be complete assholes and crap all over people's parades. Sure they might shove a sword through your gut if you cross them. But we want people to know why we are doing it. Its not because we want to ruin your experience, but rather enhance it. We are hoping that allowing better communication in this manner will allow people to see our intent, and take a step back from their PC, and take a breath. Allowing others to form ideas for things that they would desire to see done that could bring their characters into the fold should (hopefully), only enhance this.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:46 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
That's great, seriously. I really, genuinely admire that desire towards transparency and communication, and I think if you stick with it, it will go a long looooong way towards smoothing your path forward. So, what are your goals? Other than just "be a successful evil faction." Here's the reason I ask: The moment my opinion of the Celestial Staircase faction began to change from cautious optimism to something a bit more cynical was when I heard about their treatment of Rastin. It seemed purposeless to me, like PvP and torture just for the sake of PvP and torture. I couldn't connect it in my mind to any larger purpose: why Rastin? He's just some random guy who hangs around the Dale. There's nothing I could see that you guys gained by torturing Rastin, other than just a reputation as being the sort of people who torture people. What was the larger IC goal which was served by those instances of PvP?

Author:	The Great Equalizer [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:55 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
It was MADE into the server mentality, it can be unmade. Its honestly not that hard although objectively it was far easier to subdue all that sort of RP because others didn't like it or got mad about it that it is to undo it, as you have to (to some degree) disregard possible sensitivities over things like PVP, or getting your stuff wrecked, because while those can have negative aspects that also bring useful elements to that game. As all carrot an no stick leads to a lack of much motivation and through it general stagnation. The only thing you really need is players wanting to do something and at least one DM willing to actually find a ways that makes it work, although that is often easier said than done it seems. Also PVP can be the goal in of itself, the setting is SUPPOSED to be full on conflict. And sometimes people who disagree with your goals and beliefs want to kill you because of that. Generally there is also some bigger goal, just because you cant see the meaning to an individual event does not mean THEY didn't have a reason. Just assuming all PVP is without a goal unless you can see it will have you always seeing "Pointless" PVP.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:57 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Liz wrote: That's great, seriously. I really, genuinely admire that desire towards transparency and communication, and I think if you stick with it, it will go a long looooong way towards smoothing your path forward. So, what are your goals? Other than just "be a successful evil faction." Here's the reason I ask: The moment my opinion of the Celestial Staircase faction began to change from cautious optimism to something a bit more cynical was when I heard about their treatment of Rastin. It seemed purposeless to me, like PvP and torture just for the sake of PvP and torture. I couldn't connect it in my mind to any larger purpose: why Rastin? He's just some random guy who hangs around the Dale. There's nothing I could see that you guys gained by torturing Rastin, other than just a reputation as being the sort of people who torture people. What was the larger IC goal which was served by those instances of PvP? Rastin was actually chosen for a reason. It was not random. I cannot divulge too much as that plot is still ongoing. Simply put, we were informed he had information we desired, so we took him off and tortured him until we were satisfied with his answers. As for our actual goals.. Again I can't say too much. But as a whole, we're working on getting a faction base for one; as well we're working on another plot that will, hopefully, bring something interesting to the server. We've a few more ideas, but they're generally minor atm and on the back burner.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 20:59 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
The Great Equalizer wrote: Generally there is also some bigger goal, just because you cant see the meaning to an individual event does not mean THEY didn't have a reason. Just assuming all PVP is without a goal unless you can see it will have you always seeing "Pointless" PVP. That's why I'm so thrilled that Kolde is so willing to talk OOC about his group's IC goals. A bit of insight into why they're doing what they're doing might place their actions in a more sympathetic context in a lot of peoples' minds, and alleviate exactly that inherent communication gap that you cite.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:07 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
kolde wrote: Simply put, we were informed he had information we desired, so we took him off and tortured him until we were satisfied with his answers. See, that's a thing I can sort of kind of get behind. I don't mean to say that you should spoil everyone on your specific moment-to-moment tactics, but even just that vague semi-answer does help reframe your actions in my mind a bit. And since you're asking peoples' opinions and advice in this thread, I'll go a step farther: as long as you guys are going for "openly evil" anyways, I think it was a mistake for the culprits of that PvP to deny their involvement IC. They weren't fooling anyone either IC or OOC anyways, and if they'd said IC "Oh, yeah, someone said he knew something we wanted to know, so we nabbed him and put the hurt on him to get it," they'd have accomplished IC the same transparency and communication you're trying to aim for in this OOC thread.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:15 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Our overarching goal is of course simple and pure: Power. That is what ties us together and allows so many of varying beliefs to manage to work together. All our PCs understand, begrudgingly, that going alone is suicide. Its simple, and cliche, but it works, and its realistic. As for how this affects the rest of the server: I will say that we are working on unleashing something (That we hope will force all the goodies to come together to stop), and that has been our main focus, and near everything we've done has been tied to it. So, at the moment our plots are twofold. The aforementioned being of more the destruction through creation means. The latter is of course, entrenching ourselves, and actually giving others a target to aim at. Its been mentioned more than once that evil has nothing to lose. We're trying to build something that will then be something that can be taken.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:21 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Liz wrote: kolde wrote: Simply put, we were informed he had information we desired, so we took him off and tortured him until we were satisfied with his answers. See, that's a thing I can sort of kind of get behind. I don't mean to say that you should spoil everyone on your specific moment-to-moment tactics, but even just that vague semi-answer does help reframe your actions in my mind a bit. And since you're asking peoples' opinions and advice in this thread, I'll go a step farther: as long as you guys are going for "openly evil" anyways, I think it was a mistake for the culprits of that PvP to deny their involvement IC. They weren't fooling anyone either IC or OOC anyways, and if they'd said IC "Oh, yeah, someone said he knew something we wanted to know, so we nabbed him and put the hurt on him to get it," they'd have accomplished IC the same transparency and communication you're trying to aim for in this OOC thread. IC wise we did not desire people to know that we had a reason, as we did not want people delving into the matter until we're ready to actually strike. And it a bit odd, as our PCs are openly evil, yes, but their intent is to keep motivations veiled, until it is too late to be stopped. Basically, they don't want people knowing their plans, but they use whatever means necessary to see those plans done.

Author:	VitalTouch [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:27 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
The biggest problem I have with evil factions or more accurately a certain mind set some of the players in those factions is that its ok to powerbuild for pvp then pick any fight with rp build characters even when that fight is meaningless to the faction and the only justification for it is ICly "because im evil" and OOCly "because I can because I have the token rp to make it legal". As Liz said earlier I feel that evil factions and players would be better served policing themselves against these kinds of players, combat for event purposes or under DM supervision to push forward a plot or plan of some kind is one thing but no RPer should be happy with munchkins. From a Salandran point of view (as my main is one) I would love to be involved in more moral dilemmas that can come with being in a neutral faction, sadly so far all I have seen is pvp munchkins decapitating my character and her friends outside bendir then going on to have candyfloss with the Hin. None of whom bat an eye lol. P.S. I am fully aware that some players and DMs would rather I bury my head in the sand and stop pointing out that powerbuilding and RP servers should not really be mixed but as it is a legitimate point of view I will keep arguing that character builds should reflect the RP and IC not the OOC spread sheets for maximum hack and slash. I have D3 for that P.P.S. Due to new job I don't have much time to play Amia at the moment but if there is anything the Salandrans' can do to get involved with ebil plots and schemes (or good guys for that matter) please feel free to PM me on this forum.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:28 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Then to reiterate my last comment: My advice would be for you to find ways, preferably IC, to make it plain to people how any given individual evil deed serves to further your larger goals. Don't give people the chance to think of your PvP as pointless, but rather proactively head off those judgements before they can coalesce into condemnations of your OOC intentions. There's any number of ways to do that, ranging from subtle to obvious. Maybe the notice board at Kampo's becomes your best friend! Own up to your evil, stand behind it, announce it, proclaim it, love it! "We hereby proclaim that our torture of the Kohlinger agent Rastin was a massive success, and the information he gave up under torture is now serving the unthwartable purposes of the Knights of the Celestial Stairway, mwhahahahahaaaa!!!" I don't know that anyone's tried that before. Evil factions I've seen have tended to rely on secrecy and misdirection, and look where it got them. Try something different, go loud and proud! It's asking you to adapt your IC behavior to serve a mostly OOC purpose, which doesn't seem entirely fair, I know. But again, Liz wrote: Railing against the double-standard, even if the complaint is justified, will get you nowhere, because it's never, ever going to change. If you can't accept that an evil character needs to be a thousand times more careful than a good character, then evil in a multiplayer environment is probably not for you.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:42 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Liz wrote: Own up to your evil, stand behind it, announce it, proclaim it, love it! "We hereby proclaim that our torture of the Kohlinger agent Rastin was a massive success, and the information he gave up under torture is now serving the unthwartable purposes of the Knights of the Celestial Stairway, mwhahahahahaaaa!!!" I actually rather like this, but its going to take walking quite a line there of letting people know that we're doing something without giving away what and spoiling something before it hatches. Regardless I'll bring it up to the others, and hopefully we'll think of something.

Author:	kolde [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 21:58 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
VitalTouch wrote: The biggest problem I have with evil factions or more accurately a certain mind set some of the players in those factions is that its ok to powerbuild for pvp then pick any fight with rp build characters even when that fight is meaningless to the faction and the only justification for it is ICly "because im evil" and OOCly "because I can because I have the token rp to make it legal". As Liz said earlier I feel that evil factions and players would be better served policing themselves against these kinds of players, combat for event purposes or under DM supervision to push forward a plot or plan of some kind is one thing but no RPer should be happy with munchkins. From a Salandran point of view (as my main is one) I would love to be involved in more moral dilemmas that can come with being in a neutral faction, sadly so far all I have seen is pvp munchkins decapitating my character and her friends outside bendir then going on to have candyfloss with the Hin. None of whom bat an eye lol. P.S. I am fully aware that some players and DMs would rather I bury my head in the sand and stop pointing out that powerbuilding and RP servers should not really be mixed but as it is a legitimate point of view I will keep arguing that character builds should reflect the RP and IC not the OOC spread sheets for maximum hack and slash. I have D3 for that P.P.S. Due to new job I don't have much time to play Amia at the moment but if there is anything the Salandrans' can do to get involved with ebil plots and schemes (or good guys for that matter) please feel free to PM me on this forum. This is not helpful or entirely relevant to the topic. Do not start an argument about powerbuilding and rp quality, please.

Author:	Liz [ Sun, Sep 06 2015, 22:01 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
kolde wrote: I actually rather like this, but its going to take walking quite a line there of letting people know what we're doing without giving it away and spoiling something before it hatches. Regardless I'll bring it up to the others, and hopefully we'll think of something. You're right, it will. But it will be worth it, and if you can pull it off, you will be my new favorite evil faction ever, and I doubt I'll be alone.

Author:	LetumLux [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 0:14 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
This is great, and what I hope to see out of topics like this, including the self-moderating. Still reading for now, considering, but I just wanted to say thank you for taking the initiative to pull this in a civil, constructive direction.

Author:	Grymia [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 2:43 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Give me a bit to try to put my thoughts into cohesive sentences that will be effective, and I'll do what I can.

Author:	The1Kobra [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 3:19 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
So far, I've heard trace few grumblings about the group's OOC conduct and plenty about their IC devilry. That's a good sign, keep it up, bro. I do disagree with Liz about the PvP comment though. PvP that's well handled can enhance the RPing experience greatly. I don't shy away from PvP for OOC reasons (though my characters might for IC reasons). As long as it's done responsibly, fairly, with legitimate IC reasons, and in a fun manner, I don't have a problem with it. As long as it's about the RP and not the PvP, and it's kept cool, well, rock on. So far this has been handled well from what I've heard, so kudos folks.

Author:	Grymia [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 3:43 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Okay, I'll give a couple of personal perspective points and some general counsel I would offer, if I was indeed playing an evil character more full time: Main one being: PvP is a very dangerous tool to use, if possible consider what other tools are in the box first. If you do evil as a PC, expect that PC to face conflict and to risk repercussions, potentially quite severe ones in point of fact. This also holds true for good aligned PCs and is something I always mind when doing stuff. This doesn't mean that you cannot take clever precautions to minimize risk though. Be ready and willing to abandon plans if you think something's not completely solid. Be willing to think beyond simple thuggery, unless you simply wish to be playing a thug in which case, getting a more brainy character to handle the planning is good sense. Keep your mind open. Ideally, know the folks you're likely to face down ICly. This is what comes to mind immediately.

Author:	Kawaiian [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 4:57 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
kolde wrote: And please do not make assumptions about what we were doing, and how much prep was put into it, nor the circumstances of the situation. But I will state once more: *We were NOT, and are NOT trying to attack a city.* Little off topic advice! If you're even on the outskirts of a city and there's a fight, it falls under "you were attacking the city". Doesn't much matter what your side is. There's a fight, you're sieging the city. Don't do it either, they'll perma your ass so quick. Proof that you will fail, assuming we are understanding that any fight within a cities borders is attacking the city? here(I know it's not much, just a piece I kept for lols). This bit is from when the Thayans(me included) were telling Kholingen to back off our(thayan) lands, just on the very tippy tip edge of their(khol's) borders, literally on top of the transition point, way far from the city itself. A point we really didn't think counted as a perma city death zone, or fuuuuck we wouldn't have fought. We didn't even throw the first blows. We would have stayed on our side of the transition and waited. So take this as biased. Take it as hijacking your topic to cry about my woes. Take it as whatever. Just thought to give the warning b/c of the grief it caused us. I'm still na+ about it to this day. I get heartburn and shit when I think about it. I don't want that for anyone else. Except Kanye West. peace

Author:	serbiris [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 5:07 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Kawaiian wrote: kolde wrote: And please do not make assumptions about what we were doing, and how much prep was put into it, nor the circumstances of the situation. But I will state once more: *We were NOT, and are NOT trying to attack a city.* Little off topic advice! If you're even on the outskirts of a city and there's a fight, it falls under "you were attacking the city". Doesn't much matter what your side is. There's a fight, you're sieging the city. Don't do it either, they'll perma your ass so quick. Proof that you will fail, assuming we are understanding that any fight within a cities borders is attacking the city? here(I know it's not much, just a piece I kept for lols). This bit is from when the Thayans(me included) were telling Kholingen to back off our(thayan) lands, just on the very tippy tip edge of their(khol's) borders, literally on top of the transition point, way far from the city itself. A point we really didn't think counted as a perma city death zone, or fuuuuck we wouldn't have fought. We didn't even throw the first blows. We would have stayed on our side of the transition and waited. So take this as biased. Take it as hijacking your topic to cry about my woes. Take it as whatever. Just thought to give the warning b/c of the grief it caused us. I'm still na+ about it to this day. I get heartburn and shit when I think about it. I don't want that for anyone else. Except Kanye West. peace No offence dude but if you're claiming that your faction legitimately attempted to claim sovereignty over an actual sovereign power's territory (yes even the "tippy edge", because Kohl territory has a border with Winya's and THE SEA) then yes you were by definition an invading presence. And back on topic.

Author:	serbiris [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 5:19 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
I want to note that it's a bit unfair to ask these CS guys to not PvP, because evil groups are bound to be attacked by good groups and then subsequently blamed for the PvP that ensues. There are a lot of evil/pot-stirring actions that necessitate a PvP response from their opponents. The only actions which categorically don't are, well... more secretive stuff. Other than that... I don't have a lot to add, just stay cool and try to keep a good relationship with players. Threads like this are a step in the right direction.

Author:	Kawaiian [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:11 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
serbiris wrote: No offence dude but if you're claiming that your faction legitimately attempted to claim sovereignty over an actual sovereign power's territory (yes even the "tippy edge", because Kohl territory has a border with Winya's and THE SEA) then yes you were by definition an invading presence. Oh sorry! Let me clear that up. We weren't trying to claim anything. We were telling Khol they can't come in and romp around our territory (which they were doing) without consequences. Territory for sure 101% they did not own. As we were trying to declare ourselves as the face of evil for the server (like the stairs faction or whatever is trying to do now). To create conflict and fun for everyone else on the server. This topic is a bit..... Useless for me? Being banned and all. But here goes anyway! What I think the server needs is exactly what you and yours are trying to do. At least what I gathered in reading for a few minutes. A face to evil. Something to really fear. Which, sadly, is usually achieved by curb stomping in PVP a few times, as people seem to have trouble being intimidated on this server, everyone being THE BIG MACHO and all. A group that people think "I better not fuck with them or they will hunt my ass down". The theme here being fear. If you can get that some other way than PVP, great! Do it! All I added aside from "a face to evil" is my speculation on what you may be trying to go for? And don't take me for a PVP whore! I'm really not. There just was no other way to really gain the evil fear/respect, that I found. non salty real version on how to achieve that based on my/our experience?: follow every pvp rule to the letter, don't fight near cities, make sure you're not accidentally using a bugged class. ps, it's *offense

Author:	Grymia [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:13 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
// Question: Which territory had you been doing this in?

Author:	Kawaiian [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:20 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
Grymia wrote: // Question: Which territory had you been doing this in? Section of the quagmires with the empty temple, bought it from some mercs.

Author:	serbiris [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:22 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/offence l2dictionary

Author:	Kawaiian [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:23 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
serbiris wrote: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/offence l2dictionary fuuuuuuu my bad homes. I'm not used to such fancy.

Author:	Rigela [ Mon, Sep 07 2015, 6:26 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Evil Faction Feedback- CS
In regards to the incident between Kohl and the Thayans, I had thought I'd apologised for the way it went down to all I could reach. In any case, I am sorry for how it went down, for what it may be worth now. I was ill prepared for a dust off, and wasn't expecting such stiff resistance to simply closing off a passageway that gave such a nefarious place a gateway to Kohlingens territory. That, in the end, was all Kohlingen wanted to do. It was only the resistance they met that changed things in the end. Coupled with sucking at the mechanical side of controlling the NPC's and figuring out how to do it all so the PC's allied with them would have them on their side with the lag I had with the madness going on, it all went bad very quickly. I'm not sure lingering on it will do any good, but if I could figure out a way to have done that whole affair better I would.