AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As the suggestions forum is locked, I thought I would post this here instead.

I would like to discuss the idea of merging Shadowscape and Tarkuul into a single settlement. How this would happen ICly is somewhat beyond the scope of the discussion (though it would likely revolve around the strong Sharan/shadow presence in both settlements - and if nothing else.. magic). Instead, I want to focus on the reasons for doing so from a server/player perspective.

Tarkuul is evolving away from being a necropolis to a gothic city-state with an undead flavoring. It's more gloomy than shambling these days, and I fully welcome this evolution. However, this leads to considerable overlap with the concept of Shadowscape as a gloomy, somewhat gothic settlement in the Shadow Plane. Because of this thematic overlap, and in order to reduce the server spread and bring characters closer together (thus encouraging roleplay of all sorts) I think it might be a constructive change if the two cities would be combined into a single whole.

Personally, I think it would be great to see Tarkuul/Shadowscape merged into a ziggurat-like city where the upper levels are dominated by dark libraries and mage enclaves, the middle (at the sea level) a dense urban area with shady taverns, docks and shadowdancers, and the lowest level (below the sea) a leaky necropolis full of undead and dark horrors. The whole city cast in a perpetual twilight during the day, and starless sky at night.

The Shadowdancer's Academy easily makes up the bulk of the Shadowscape player base, and them merging them with Tarkuul is just not going to happen from the history between the two.

If you think that these two places could jut be lumped together, then I'm sorry to be blunt, but you aren't looking deep enough into what each one is and don't really understand them.

I like this idea. Make a dark and mysterious superstate. AND THEN NUKE IT. And then run away in fear from the mutation that crawls from the ashes

There already is a portal between the two places, merging seems like a big commitment. Tarkuul is a free spirit

While I have to agree that something like that would be totally awesome sounding, I don't think it's practical from any standpoint. Shadowscape is somewhere in the Shadow Plane and honestly has no interest in Tarkuul's crazy evil necromancy. They're more concerned with their survival in the shadow plane, which is an incredibly hostile environment that requires intense diligence. Tarkuul itself is expanding it's ground and exists in the prime as a naval island socialist paradise. Mixing that and Shadowscape's weird noble council wouldn't work very well either.

Yeah this would make zero sense and would be an awful change. They have little in common, for one.

And the suggestion forum was locked because we have too much already to handle (and it was said to not make IA posts in GD). Though this sort of fits in GD anyways since it's more of 'hey could this happen'.

Drakos_Vek wrote:

The Shadowdancer's Academy easily makes up the bulk of the Shadowscape player base, and them merging them with Tarkuul is just not going to happen from the history between the two.

LetumLux wrote:

If you think that these two places could jut be lumped together, then I'm sorry to be blunt, but you aren't looking deep enough into what each one is and don't really understand them.

Basically this. And I think that simply because both places have a similar religious influence, that they shouldn't automatically lumped together. Another major difference is that Tarkuul and Shadowscape are on two different planes of existence.

I /really/ don't see this as making much sense. The kind of people that inhabit Tarkuul, and the kind of people that inhabit Shadowscape....or even the Shadow Plane... are /very/ different.

LetumLux wrote:

If you think that these two places could jut be lumped together, then I'm sorry to be blunt, but you aren't looking deep enough into what each one is and don't really understand them.

I hate seeing Tarkuul so devoid of life and Shadowscape's but a shadow of its former glory, but it seems a bit cruel to force potentially good-aligned Shadowdancers to rub shoulders with the horror that is Tarkuul.

But isn't Shadowscape a well-known harbor for evildoers? There's the temple of Shar, at least one evil-only merchant, and some very bloodcurdling elements such as the tavern and its positively ogry patrons. I agree with Elorathall that combining the two might generate some badly needed mingling with the few sundry factions inhabiting the places, so maybe this idea bares some further discussion. If there is ever a good OOC motive for doing something, you can always rise to the occasion with an appropriate IC excuse. After all, to quote the mighty The Simpsons, "Individually we are weak like a twig, but together we form a mighty faggot!" And another point to be made is that you could reach such epic proportions with an event spun out of this.

And please, oh mighty DMs, don't be blunt. Be understanding and lenient towards your humble servants, us the stupid players, and explain why it's a bad idea.

Tarkuul is a Netherese city of old and deady glory, covered in undeath, steeped in necromancy and run by those who espouse its virtues and the virtues of Absolute Knowledge and Absolute Power, a place where the Arcane is King, and lords above all.

Shadowscape is a village/town on the Prime Material that was gated into the Shadowplane by a lot of epic level shadowdancers. There they eke out a rough, tough existence on the plane, protected by mysterious, sympathetic shadow creatures, the Shadowbourne family and their inter-planar trading exploits, and the Three Steps Shadowdancing Troupe.

They got nothing to do with Netheril at all, the Arcane at all, undead at all, or anything else for that matter. The two settlements are very incompatible besides "The both seem to be dark an awful lot." I wouldn't describe either of them as "gothic", either. Shadowscape is probably more "Dark Medieval", and Tarkuul a bit more like ruined Detroit with brand new buildings mixe din, like some macabre mixture of old and new.

As someone with a PC who left one for the other, no, they're not the same. If anything, I would like to see more conflict or tension between the two over all the stuff that's gone down in the wake of the Arcanum War and what happened to the Shadovar.

Every time I think about creating a city of evil, I think about Shadowscape and Tarkuul, and come to the conclusion that both of those places aren't exactly what I'm looking for, but I can't create something that I am actually looking for either realistically, so I'm just stuck. Between the very fundamental disagreement between devils and demons, and having my own requirement of not being "hidden away from everyone's purview" I've mostly become discouraged from chasing the idea. The server (DM's and playerbase) mentality towards evil is mostly the cause of this gap, IMO. Nowadays, it seems good people always have to win, since they're basically used to it, with events and all, and people are afraid of lasting upheaval. (Or even an evil that's not afraid to stick its neck out)

Combining both of them just seems like a weird mash of solutions that can't really ever make sense. I don't know how to fix it really, and it is gloomy, but for me, Tarkuul started out as a fresh and great idea after Tormak took over and started anew, but shortly after he left, I lost interest because it became something else, and I wasn't interested in that. Now Tarkuul has a split mentality, where it's caretakers and policy makers seem split between caring about the undead in history, and the other extreme -- that they don't care at all, and would happily kill them; which is ironic if you consider the dire need Tarkuul have to the undead there.

As far as Shadowscape is concerned, it's mostly empty and it seems rather out of the way and independent of most simple evil minded politics. Of course, you get people on both sides of the aisle as well, because not every shadowdancer is a villain.

Mostly both of these entities are neutral seeming at this point, maybe leaning evil if you look deep within their hidden plots. But if it's a plot nobody but the people pushing it get to see, does it actually ever happen? (kind of like a tree falling in a forest with nobody to see)

Faded Wings wrote:

Every time I think about creating a city of evil, I think about Shadowscape and Tarkuul, and come to the conclusion that both of those places aren't exactly what I'm looking for, but I can't create something that I am actually looking for, realistically.

The groundwork for Tarkuul to evolve has been laid. There's just a (somewhat understandable) lag in PC's taking it up on that offer and starting la revolución. Secular, non-necromancer scholars of the realms, unite!

Quote:

The groundwork for Tarkuul to evolve has been laid.

It did evolve. It evolved so much; to the point of no return. At this rate, it might as well turn into a non-necromancer, non-undead type of city. It feels like it's stuck and lost somewhere in the middle, to be honest. It has traveled a very far distance, since Velsharoon owned it, and in a way that is very unfavorable for my PC in general, and her faction, sadly. The Voice/And other godlike NPC's there kind of kill any ambitions I have to remain there longer than I'm forced to.

I've long since wanted to create a bastion that was out of the way, but not hidden, or something awesome, that was themed towards devils, demons, shadows, undead, and evil in general. Then someone very rightfully reminded me that devils and demons would never get along in idea, in character, and since then I've never gotten past that road block. I guess you can always say.. "Maybe you shouldn't try so hard to be so inclusive" but then you have to ask yourself-- are you building this for your faction, or for an alignment?

My answer: I want a city for evil. But hell, good luck with that. So ... yeah, I just stick to scripting :lol:

I'm personally quite opposed to having spitless-shiny-perfect-flawless-ohsoholy good and snarl-mwuhahah-Disney evil. If I was 12 and this was Lord of the Rings, sure. But I'm not and this isn't. I feel Tarkuul and Shadowscape are literally and figuratively darker places than the other settlements on our server, they aren't quite as blatantly evil as, say, Zanshibon. And for good reason, of course. Tarkuul and Shadowscape both feel more amoral than outright malicious to me - which is the key component in genuine evil.

Frankly, I'm a bit stunned by some of the "this is dumb and you should feel dumb!" responses. We all know the server is generally spread too broadly, and we have more areas than we genuinely need. That's why Uhm was blown, Triumvir went poof and nobody genuinely invests any time in Khem anymore pending it's removal from the server.

So in this sense of moving away from a quantity of areas to a more qualitative approach - getting more from less - I don't see why my suggestion is so ignorant. If you take Tarkuul, Shadowscape, Kohlingen, Wiltun and Cordor I think Tarkuul and Shadowscape have conceptually and aesthetically the most in common and would merge the best. To be fair, Cordor and Kohlingen would be surprisingly easy to "merge" as well (at least in terms of concentrating players into a single settlement rather than dividing them over two).

Lastly, as to those who say the Good shadowdancers would be at the throats of the Evil necromancers ... I rather hope so. Character conflict is a good thing.

Tarkuul and Shadowscape are indeed so much different. Barring the backstory of the City itself given it's history is before my time, and somewhat ambiguous even after my research, the plane of Shadow is 'mildly neutral aligned'. Which by the definition of the Manual of the Planes is dead center in the alignment spectrum. Not /all/ of the things in the Shadow plane are evil. I don't think Shadowscape is 'known for it's evil doers' either. The presence of the Temple of Mask....not Shar... has little impact on the aligment spectrum of the City in my experience too.

Quote:

Of course, you get people on both sides of the aisle as well, because not every shadowdancer is a villain.

The fact that you say Kohlingen and Cordor could muerge easily as well just sort of reaffirms my belief that you ar ejust taking similarly colored things and smushing them together. Cordor and Kohl are about as night as day as Tarkuul and Shadowscape. Do Winya and Bendir belong together too? They are both fairly natural and bastionn of their races, and elves and halflings like each other.

That whole initiative that killed the Tirumvir, the theatre, Khem, Uhm, and was slated to kill Zanshibon rates up among the tippy top of awful ideas in my mind, btw.

I don't think anyone is say it's dumb, Elorathall, so much as saying it doesn't really make sense. Maybe they aren't two most populous regions of either server, but there's almost been a lot of push-back against the culling of areas as well. A good deal of it comes from the misconception that PC's spread out evenly throughout the server like gas in a container. The truth of it is getting rid of X area doesn't necessarily mean that the 3 PCs that frequent it will move back to Cordor and join in RP there. It may mean those PC's just stop playing and showing up altogether because the one spot they liked was taken away.

But back to the Shadowscape v. Tarkuul thing, both of generally secretive places with some of the longest histories on the server. Again, we're not saying it's dumb, or at least I'm not, we're saying that there's more to it than "both of these places are dark and evily looking, so they need to be merged." It would be like saying Winya and the Grove need to be merged because they both are really natural looking and have elves. There's just more to it than that. But hopefully there is RP to be had between the two places that may lead to both finding a sort of renaissance in their own ways.

Edit: Damn ninja-ing Tormak.

Pretty much what most everyone else has said on this topic about why this wouldn't fit.

My own personal addition:

ಠ_ಠ

Dark Immolation wrote:

Winya and the Groove

You have just named my new feytouched boy band.

I'm pleased to say my own sentiments have been stated well already by both DMs and players that actually play & are invested in these two places. For the sake of clarity I'll reiterate - "No."

Liz wrote:

Dark Immolation wrote:

Winya and the Groove

You have just named my new feytouched boy band.

You shut up, I edited that like 30 seconds afterwards. I was hoping no one caught that. >_>

TormakSaber wrote:

Tarkuul is a Netherese city of old and deady glory, covered in undeath, steeped in necromancy and run by those who espouse its virtues and the virtues of Absolute Knowledge and Absolute Power, a place where the Arcane is King, and lords above all.

Shadowscape is a village/town on the Prime Material that was gated into the Shadowplane by a lot of epic level shadowdancers. There they eke out a rough, tough existence on the plane, protected by mysterious, sympathetic shadow creatures, the Shadowbourne family and their inter-planar trading exploits, and the Three Steps Shadowdancing Troupe.

They got nothing to do with Netheril at all, the Arcane at all, undead at all, or anything else for that matter. The two settlements are very incompatible besides "The both seem to be dark an awful lot." I wouldn't describe either of them as "gothic", either. Shadowscape is probably more "Dark Medieval", and Tarkuul a bit more like ruined Detroit with brand new buildings mixe din, like some macabre mixture of old and new.

Wow, fair dos. Sorry for the bitchy undertone!

Let me rephrase then. What do the different settlements individually offer that no other settlement on the server could ever offer? Eg. What does Tarkuul offer that Shadowscape could never ever conceivably offer? What does Kohlingen offer that Cordor could never ever conceivably offer? Vice versa, and for other combinations as well.

So is your endgame jsut one city i the server? Because you can expand that outwar dto aobut anywhere at anytime, you know. We've already shown you the places are very different. I am a little surprised you don't know how different Kohl and Cordor are by simple virtue of playing Aurelius and the Brabandt.

Opustus wrote:

the temple of Shar

Check again? You may be mistaking something.

Ironically, I was actually just thinking about what a missed opportunity Shadowscape is. A staple of medieval fantasy is the so-called "frontier" settlement - the small town or village that only exists because its position is vital (for trade/gathering of resources) and someone invested a lot of money ensuring that it had high walls and a civil defence force. Very few places on Amia (the island itself especially) qualify by virtue of the server's age and average PC level - nowhere is really threatening, especially since new PCs need to level somewhere, and the nearest superpower is a transition or portal jump away. Well, no one really levels in Shadowscape's surroundings - too few spawns to make the effort worthwhile, it's a tourist destination at best. Wouldn't it be nice if the settlement was under the correct level of threat, we saw the defenders struggling, and PCs felt like going there out of a desire for purpose? It worked wonderfully for Ceyren's Mill - in fact they had their cake and ate it, with a lowbie leveling area during the day, and the deadly night. Back when the changes first started cropping up, DMs loved throwing hordes of dead at the tiny settlement and PCs loved re-enacting Helm's Deep (when no one was complaining about those darn OP deaders). Of course, it couldn't go on forever, there has to be some growth/plot movement/variation to keep it interesting, but still better than letting the place languish or calling for its execution.

Then DI posted this, well I guess we had the same sort of idea potentially as a result of this thread, kudos to Elorathall for that. Damn. I would be leaping on this instead of writing about it on the forum, except the only PC I have fit for it is cooling his heels in one of the few permadeaths of the server.

Quote:

Then DI posted this,

... oh dear, now I am captivated.

I don't have an endgame for this server. Neither do you. Nobody does. Amia (A) is a patchwork flesh golem that shuffles on without sense of direction or purpose. Sure, it might look interesting at a glance but is that kind of cobbled-together creature something we want? Does it really need the three extra legs or the five extra hands? What endgame could there possibly be when we don't know what the current game is? What is Amia (A)'s theme? Atmosphere? Aesthetic? What is ever going to happen when the necromancers huddle in their town, the shadowdancers in their town, the paladins huddle in their own town, and both sides like it just fine that way. Get rid of the redundancy, pull people off their asses and get them plotting, scheming and fighting with real stakes.

What I find particularly saddening is that we -can- actually do better. Wiltun and Careigh are well-defined in their themes, aesthetics and culture, and increasingly so these days. And nobody says "you know, this place would be a lot better if there was a floating mage tower for transmuters, and only transmuters.".

You can get people plotting and such without cramming citites that don't mesh together. However a lot of it revolves around what Faded said.

The DMs can do a lot as long as they are willing to try. Good doesn't always have to win. Neither does Evil but they certainly need the same support Good has. And they can do that without cramming random stuff together.

Elorathall wrote:

I don't have an endgame for this server. Neither do you. Nobody does. Amia (A) is a patchwork flesh golem that shuffles on without sense of direction or purpose. Sure, it might look interesting at a glance but is that kind of cobbled-together creature something we want? Does it really need the three extra legs or the five extra hands? What endgame could there possibly be when we don't know what the current game is? What is Amia (A)'s theme? Atmosphere? Aesthetic? What is ever going to happen when the necromancers huddle in their town, the shadowdancers in their town, the paladins huddle in their own town, and both sides like it just fine that way. Get rid of the redundancy, pull people off their asses and get them plotting, scheming and fighting with real stakes.

What I find particularly saddening is that we -can- actually do better. Wiltun and Careigh are well-defined in their themes, aesthetics and culture, and increasingly so these days. And nobody says "you know, this place would be a lot better if there was a floating mage tower for transmuters, and only transmuters.".

Ummm... I think it's funny you say this for wiltun because every other city is too.... Where do you get off on insulting the years and years of work that the players and DMs have put into these settlements? Not to mention the work they are all doing right now?

Quote:

What is Amia (A)'s theme? Atmosphere? Aesthetic?

What is Amia (B)'s? You got Ruathym, with 3 separate places, you got half of Khem, you got the Underdark, you got the Abyss, you got Brogendenstein, you got Forrstakkr, and you got the Frozenfar. All of these places have their own distinct flavor and culture as well, but I don't see you calling it a 'shambling golem'.

Forrstakkr is full of folk that hate magic and dislike foreigners too. Maybe we should merge Ruathym and Forrstakkr? It seems silly to have tow islands that basically fill the same niche.

See what I mean here? The very argument is disrespectful to the people who RP and do work, not to mention the DMs who help the players in their roleplay.

TormakSaber wrote:

The very argument is disrespectful to the people who RP and do work, not to mention the DMs who help the players in their roleplay.

+1

Elorathall wrote:

Let me rephrase then. What do the different settlements individually offer that no other settlement on the server could ever offer? Eg. What does Tarkuul offer that Shadowscape could never ever conceivably offer? What does Kohlingen offer that Cordor could never ever conceivably offer? Vice versa, and for other combinations as well.

Again, what does Forstakkr thematically offer that you couldn't conceivably realize in Rhuathym? My point is that there are too many settlements and areas - taking a quantity over quality approach. Case in point, I'm pretty sure there are people playing right now that don't even know Maeduselde exists.

TormakSaber wrote:

[Where do you get off on insulting the years and years of work that the players and DMs have put into these settlements? Not to mention the work they are all doing right now?

(...)

The very argument is disrespectful to the people who RP and do work, not to mention the DMs who help the players in their roleplay.

Then I have to ask, were these efforts made to contribute to a meaningful, dynamic and living world or merely to create a static chatroom for certain players to loiter in? What about those players that have put a lot of effort in changing the status quo or trying to create genuine stakes to conflict (eg. the players of evil, but not exclusively so)? Where is the respect for their efforts? It puts a very negative connotation to the concept of a persistent world. There have been changes, yes, but overall these are focused on piling ever more on top of each other rather than trimming away the fat.

But that's a whole other discussion. This one is about taking the different pieces that make up the setting and combining them as best as possible into a coherent whole. You can't have a setting that wants to be consistent in its atmosphere and direction while trying to cater to everything under the sun. If the second is what you want, then go play Sinfar - which genuinely does it far better anyway. This identity crisis is something Amia has suffered from for years, if not forever, and is sustained by a misplaced fear that genuine change might drive vested players away. Not only is this counterproductive, it's also a cowardly way to avoid serious reflection. The Escape From Undermountain series of servers have been consistently high on activity and they've literally ended their entire setting and started with something new twice so far. And people still keep playing there, and new people go there because there's regularly something entirely fresh and new. While Amia, especially for being largely a homebrew setting with a base in FR, is remarkably static and irregularly laid out.

Work done two years ago may have been completely valid at the time, but that doesn't mean it's still valid now. Neither does that mean that the lessons learned from it should be cast aside, or that elements cannot be adopted into new form. But the fear of genuine change cripples natural evolution and causality in our setting and actions. And it's that fear that keeps areas and settlements with great thematic overlap seperated into multiple areas that seperate an already limited playerbase into multiple areas requiring multiple DM's to oversee.

I don't see the purpose behind this at all.

Elorathall wrote:

Let me rephrase then. What do the different settlements individually offer that no other settlement on the server could ever offer? Eg. What does Tarkuul offer that Shadowscape could never ever conceivably offer? What does Kohlingen offer that Cordor could never ever conceivably offer? Vice versa, and for other combinations as well.

To me, the lore of the two places just do not match up. Also the inner workings of the two places are so vastly different that I do not see them as being able to merge.

Shadowscape is a undiscovered city inside the plane of shadows, the inner workings and influence of it make it an ideal place for anyone wanting to get in touch with the darker side of things, pun intended

Tarkuul basic info

TormakSaber wrote:

The very argument is disrespectful to the people who RP and do work, not to mention the DMs who help the players in their roleplay.

+1

Silkelock wrote:

Shadowscape Tarkuul is a undiscovered city inside the plane a bubble of shadows, the inner workings and influence of it make it an ideal place for anyone wanting to get in touch with the darker side of things, pun intended

I still don't see it.

You fail to see it because of all the darkness and bubbles

Sorry if I fail to explain it. It's easy for me to comment on it since I can see the back-end work being done for the two places so while both are dark mysterious places it is clear as day for me

Tarkuul is founded on the principle of arcane knowledge and enlightenment. Shadowscape is nowhere near that level of education for example

Of course, I understand that behind the scenes the two places are quite different. But I'm looking at both places as an outsider and an irregular visitor, and as such I only get an impression. But within that impression the two places simply don't differentiate that much. If you walk into Kohlingen you immediately have at least an idea of its concept and theme. The same for Wiltun. The same for Tarkuul. The same for Shadowscape. My issue is that I don't like seeing unnecessary overlap between them. If Tarkuul would open a shadowdancer hall (and with all the shadows and shadovar, why hasn't it?), or Shadowscape were to open a mage tower (with all the ambient magic mystery, why hasn't it?), this effective overlap would be almost total. You could take away the library from Tarkuul, and the essence of it would still be there. You can take the temple of the Triad from Kohlingen and the essence would still be there.

An exercise I've been pondering is this. Describe a settlement with three words or adjectives. If you look at each word and can honestly say "this settlement could not possibly, thematically exist without this element", you've found the essence of those towns. And if not a single of those words applies to another town as well, you have something that is distinctly meaningful.

For example: Barak Runedar: Dwarf Mountain Fortress. I very much doubt that you could change any of these words and retain the essence of what Barak Runedar is.
Tarkuul: Shadows/Darkness Secrets Mages. But Shadowscape: Shadows Secrets ???

It gets particularly wonky for Cordor. Sea Trade City. But is the Sea aspect absolutely crucial for the theme of the city? Wouldn't it work just as well if it instead had an Amia version of a trade caravan oasis instead (I know Amia is an island, but that's a bit aside the point). Trade? Cordor doesn't feel like a trading city anymore - especially since that role has shifted to Kohlingen and Tarkuul.

PassionateShadow wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

The very argument is disrespectful to the people who RP and do work, not to mention the DMs who help the players in their roleplay.

+1

+2

I just have to agree with Tormak, Also, this is concerning to me;

Elorathall wrote:

Of course, I understand that behind the scenes the two places are quite different. But I'm looking at both places as an outsider and an irregular visitor, and as such I only get an impression. But within that impression the two places simply don't differentiate that much. If you walk into Kohlingen you immediately have at least an idea of its concept and theme. The same for Wiltun. The same for Tarkuul. The same for Shadowscape. My issue is that I don't like seeing unnecessary overlap between them. If Tarkuul would open a shadowdancer hall (and with all the shadows and shadovar, why hasn't it?), or Shadowscape were to open a mage tower (with all the ambient magic mystery, why hasn't it?), this effective overlap would be almost total.

The fact that this is being argued from a perspective of someone who doesn't understand the types of goings on in each area, which I admit, you need to be "in the loop" on, for most of them (as is the same for most cities) makes this argument to combine the settlements sketchy at best. And in addition, I doubt that a mage tower built in shadowscape would work the same as with Tarkuul, mostly because it would, almost definitely, be built around the principles of shadow magic, or the use of the shadow weave (Both very different concepts!)-- Though in the absence of a temple of Shar in the city would probably make the latter much less likely. While Tarkuul's would focus much more heavily in the Necromancy school (Maybe even less so, given the direction I've seen things go), and the theme there would be much more geared towards "traditional" magic.

Speaking from a designer's standpoint, combining the two cities would be a thematic nightmare, especially since I have a grasp on both area's themes due to PC involvement in each city. Given their history, I wouldn't be accurately able to combine the areas while respecting what each city has developed through. I strongly dislike the cop-out of, "Well, they're both kinda spooky, guys!" because its a gross oversimplification of what each settlement is, and combining the two would completely spit in the face all the RP of people involved in the areas. Hell, Cyrene was ousted from the Shadowscape Academy at a time due to a higher tolerance for Tarkuul's 'bidness for a while. The two areas hate each other, despite the "similarity" you see between them.

Simply put, if we based and designed the setting simply based on a few people's first impressions of places, we'd be left with a very homogenized setting which, quite frankly, would be boring as hell to walk around in. Mostly because first impressions tend to be pretty shallow. Where's all the intrigue?

TL;DR

Raua wrote:

ಠ_ಠ

I think the best thing you should do is take more time to get to know the settlements for yourself.

I don't really think a merger will do much. The problem I find with cities is that they are too alike in that they are too much like fortresses/ faction bases then well, the epic sort of the city that can swallow you up like Waterdeep, Athkatla and so forth.

I could see myself being happy with such a merger if it means have a sprawling anarchic mess of a city though I don't really see how it can happen ICly.

[quote="Raua"]
Simply put, if we based and designed the setting simply based on a few people's first impressions of places, we'd be left with a very homogenized setting which, quite frankly, would be boring as hell to walk around in. Mostly because first impressions tend to be pretty shallow. Where's all the intrigue?
[/quote="Raua"]

I find Wiltun and Careigh a beautifully homogenous setting, and it's hardly boring. Tarkuul, Shadowscape and other settlements are very in-your-face about their schtick. With Careigh, it feels its secrets are buried deeper - or just beyond sight in the mist. It has a facade of normalcy that makes any mystery all the more enticing.

Yeah mate, I think you're drawing too many lines and connections between characteristics that are diverse enough to justify them being separate. Shadowscape's theme and Tarkuul's are really very different.

And I know you may not see it, but just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. I'll use an example to help demonstrate my point:

I know you reference EFU's ability to mold their setting into what they want, but I should remind you that EFU is a story-based server, while Amia leans more toward sandbox. Yes, there are connections between EFU and Amia, yes there are some players who have and still do play on both of them-- but should that make them similar enough to theoretically combine them? The difference between a Story/Sandbox and a Sandbox/Story server climate is huge. EFU is able to have huge control on the reins of their setting because they are attempting to drive a particular story from a Top-Down perspective. Amia, on the other hand, tries to allow for personal stories to develop in really whatever direction they desire. It's not always possible, because your direction and story might be in conflict with another person(s).

At the end of the day, I think we (both players and DM's) need to be comfortable allowing player ambitions to branch out, even if it means going in a direction that wasn't initially planned or desired. Realistically, Elorathall, there are other ways to create a centralized, dynamic hub for people that want that, instead of combining cities or themes.

~~
Personally, I would looove seeing Shadowscape turn into a kind of Noir-style, greyscale setting like Sin City; and for Tarkuul to evolve into a regional threat that plays against other cities (Isolation vs Politics). All that's required to help Shadowscape turn into something much more unique and active is for a dedicated DM who adds a number of details and advertises a new style of isolated campaign.

Elorathall: I can't help but think you're looking at these things as being one dimensional.

Quote:

I'm personally quite opposed to having spitless-shiny-perfect-flawless-ohsoholy good and snarl-mwuhahah-Disney evil. If I was 12 and this was Lord of the Rings, sure. But I'm not and this isn't. I feel Tarkuul and Shadowscape are literally and figuratively darker places than the other settlements on our server, they aren't quite as blatantly evil as, say, Zanshibon. And for good reason, of course. Tarkuul and Shadowscape both feel more amoral than outright malicious to me - which is the key component in genuine evil.

I completely disagree. "Doing nothing outright evil; traceable or otherwise, for years and years but having a hidden general agenda that may or may never happen and is maligned" is not genuine evil. That's evil leaning neutral, which is exactly the point. Zanshibon, from your example, is the most evil there, but even that hasn't done anything noteworthy in recent times. Applying game of thrones spy-game logic to the complex forgotten realms alignment system and appreciation for dozens of sandbox concepts is poisonous and wrong. Besides, don't be ridiculous. Even if there was a evil hub, it would be a conflict ridden area, free from anything perfect. Which is great, if it's handled properly. If anything is disney it's the mentality people have that they don't want player evil to interrupt their awesome roleplay, or plans, and gain some foothold of success doing it. It's a shame that players have this mentality.

Quote:

I find Wiltun and Careigh a beautifully homogenous setting, and it's hardly boring. Tarkuul, Shadowscape and other settlements are very in-your-face about their schtick. With Careigh, it feels its secrets are buried deeper - or just beyond sight in the mist. It has a facade of normalcy that makes any mystery all the more enticing.

Based on what you said earlier, this isn't surprising. It meets the critera -- 1) The setting most resembles a PvEnviornment setting where it's very similar to game of thrones. 2)Why is it exciting? Because there's active factions with DM's as players and several DM's commited to it? Of course! Every setting in the world is always exciting with these things. Even the ones you want to merge together.

Elor, I like your words-for-cities thing because it can be a fun game for how one feels about a certain place. (Did you get it from Eat Pray Love?? Haha!) I'm not sure it's a firm basis for change, though. The three words my character would pick to describe Cordor and the three I would as a more knowledgeable OOC player are different. The words characters would choose in all these places are different. That's a game that is easier in real life where we all have mostly similar experiences in cities and places... We're not magical beings in the heart of the political intrigue and defending the world. (Or maybe some of us are..?) I'm very confident Tarkuul and Shadowscape are enormously different to those on the inside and topside of each, even if some explanations seem condescending and blunt. The advice to go learn more about each is good! Maybe you'll find you fall in love with one when you learn more about it.

... I thought you were Kohl-centric right now with that noble though anyways?! I've been looking around for him!

Also, on a sidenote, I'm surprised how much I agree with Tormak on the really bad ideas for nixing settlements stuff. Mostly because of how OOCly it was done, and secondly because it was a topside decision forced upon us and that's just never my cup of tea.. Rebel that I am. So perhaps were biased! I'm a fan of destroying places if someone goes to the effort and wins and destroys it. I'm rarely a fan of "aw... I think we need less stuff okay this boom bye."

Faded Wings wrote:

If anything is disney it's the mentality people have that they don't want player evil to interrupt their awesome roleplay, or plans, and gain some foothold of success doing it. It's a shame that players have this mentality.

I wouldn't call it player evil but I'm with you in this. We're all guilty of wanting our characters to shine now and then, but I think a healthy attitude (especially as a player) would be best summed up in: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

Quote:

I find Wiltun and Careigh a beautifully homogenous setting, and it's hardly boring. Tarkuul, Shadowscape and other settlements are very in-your-face about their schtick. With Careigh, it feels its secrets are buried deeper - or just beyond sight in the mist. It has a facade of normalcy that makes any mystery all the more enticing.

Based on what you said earlier, this isn't surprising. It meets the critera -- 1) The setting most resembles a PvEnviornment setting where it's very similar to game of thrones. 2)Why is it exciting? Because there's active factions with DM's as players and several DM's commited to it? Of course! Every setting in the world is always exciting with these things. Even the ones you want to merge together.[/quote]

As it is currently set up, players will always follow DM's. But I find your GoT analogy interesting. I'm not going to deny that I'm not a fan of high magic settings of environments - as such tends to make magic very unmagical very quickly. But that's outside the point. Aside from Careigh, I also love Khem. And as we're unlikely to see Amia being removed in favor of an entirely Khem-based server I'm still in favor of removing it from the server for reasons already discussed.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I know you reference EFU's ability to mold their setting into what they want, but I should remind you that EFU is a story-based server, while Amia leans more toward sandbox.

The key to creating a sandbox server is building it around the philosophy of empowering players with all the tools they need to tell their own stories, and minimize the amount of direct DM intervention needed to keep people active. Sinfar is a sandbox (all huehuehue aside, I seriously recommend those who haven't to check out the systems they have in place in terms of allowing players to create and import areas themselves, and create custom content). Amia certainly is not. Amia moves at the speed of DM plot. It continues to try and translate tabletop RPG philosophy into an environment that isn't suited for it. Tabletop works the way it does because your DM is always 100% active and focused on you and a small amount of other people - we can only dream about something like that on Amia. While that is going off topic, it's important to see Amia for what it is at the top level.

I understand that my suggestion is getting no traction, but I think at this point what I would like to know most of all is: what is the design philosophy behind Amia as a PW and as a setting? What makes Amia what it is, as compared to other games and servers?

Elorathall wrote:

Of course, I understand that behind the scenes the two places are quite different. But I'm looking at both places as an outsider and an irregular visitor, and as such I only get an impression. But within that impression the two places simply don't differentiate that much.

You acknowledge that you don't really know, but you're going to carry on with your self-admitted inaccurate impression? I'm not sure what is left to do, at that point, since your mind is made up to discuss on this hypothetical, rather than on how things actually are and have been told to you - not explicitly detailed, because you should find that out for yourself (and yes, secrets would be one of the Shadowscape's keywords) - but enough to inform you that your outsider's impression is not correct. Beyond that, I won't say because there are far more things than just surface differences than distinguish these places from each other, and telling you what they are would be akin to turning around the campaign module and showing you all of the DM-only sidebars. That's not going to happen.

Honestly man, we aren't sure as a community why you're so vehement about this. I think that sounds looks a cool idea but you're just sort of lumping areas together and making broad statements that offer no weight to your argument in order to try and prove your point. You even admitted that you don't play in or know very much about the areas in question, and you're still denying the legitimacy of the people who actually do.

It also doesn't help that you've gotten to the point where you're being really rude about it as well, which is only detracting further from the argument you're trying to make in favour of it. Sometimes all have to say: "I have a cool idea"and leave it at that. It's perfectly okay to have cool ideas, but getting rude and catty about it will just get you not taken seriously.

I feel for Elor's point of view; it seems to follow on from the recent discussions about condensing the server and faction hubs to generate a bit more friction, something I am in favour of. Maybe his analogy of the patchwork golem and choice of shadowscape and tarkuul as mergers might seem Blunt or uninformed, but after it being well explained why this won't work I think it's his general sentiment we should be looking at as opposed to the details of the suggestion.

Amia has a lot of diversity in hubs and potential role play spots, and all of these are subject to waxing and waning of interest, but some of these are undeniable constants through the effort of dedicated players and consistent DM interest. But those areas that see sporadic or almost no activity are (I feel) held up more for their potential than their actual merit in terms of player activity.

Some might be happy that there are such a wide range of places to entertain diverse RP concepts, and are OK with the fact that these places might only see life for a little while because it can bring a change of scene or new elements into a plot. Other folks might see these areas as fat that needs to be cut; why not condense multiple themes and faction interests into a smaller space? Is it beneficial to the server to encourage such spreading, where certain areas move at a snail's pace while others see continual progression?

Though Shadowscape does have a totally different deal to Tarkuul, I feel that Elor's suggestion to move the perceived 'hearts' of these places around to encourage clashing elements still holds merit; instead of a lesser known faction subsiding into nothingness after interest wanes, by putting them and their holdings in proximity to others you can more easily manage their slide out of the spotlight as an IC progression instead of a 'put on hold until future notice'

Tarkuul + Shadowscape

Who is online