Something, something, Daffy needs to re-spec.

The Suggestion: Allow Parry Skill to increase a PC's AC when wielding a Two-handed Weapon or a One-handed Weapon with no shield.

The Why: To allow more viable paths and diversity in melee-based PCs.


That's it in a nutshell right there. The IC idea is that Parry could very well have a passive aspect which translates to swordsmanship, deflection, and so on. From a game standpoint, the Parry skill as is has little value, except in very particular builds. This is due to Parry being badly implemented in NWN for the most part. It only attempts against the first attack in each flurry, which by end game is costing you 1-2 attacks as well as allowing yourself to be swung at 1-2 times for free. Moreover, the skill doesn't really have any use unless you can boost the stat over your AC, by which time you've expended more slots than Parry Mode is worth. For lack of any particular skill expressly called Swordsmanship, I do think Parry could fill the role of something to help bridge the gap between Two-handed fighters and the traditional sword-n-board.
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There are a some points to be considered however, which is why my suggestion is pretty vague right now.

What type of AC would it give?
AC comes in flavors, so what flavor fits this? While Deflection thematically fits the idea of parrying attacks, implementing the bonus AC from this as Deflection would make it fairly useless to most of the intended audience. It would save them exactly 1 slot on their equipment, which would be outclassed unless they would be able to boost it over +5, which becomes problematic in the way we generally handle giving out AC. Next I would say Shield Enchantment Bonus, but I don't believe that actually applies unless there is a shield equipped to the PC. That leaves Dodge, which still would have some issues with some builds I believe, but not with the majority of pure meleers to whom this change is intended to help. It also increases the idea of synergy between Str and Dex when it comes to combat. With all the armor types allowing for better AC via Dex now, not going the way of a 18 Str, 8 Dex muscle-monkey becomes more and more attractive.

What's the Ratio and what does it use?
So Parry would add to the AC of a PC. How many ranks of Parry would translate to 1 AC? Does this include item bonuses? Those two are really related. If we count items, then naturally the ranks to AC should be higher than if we're only counting base rank. My first thoughts would be to include items and have the ratio be 10 ranks to +1 AC. This means that even a smidgen of Parry Skill is going to help you as a two-hander, wherever you can fit it in. Moreover, the infamous Epic Parry Gloves finally have some use to people; +3 AC to your PC if they're fighting without a shield. The more you pour into it, the less your PC feels the the void of not using a shield, from AC at least. If by Kord's grace you go 30 base Ranks and +50 from items, congratulations, your Greatsword user isn't missing that +5 tower shield's AC and has bragging rights over the puny, feckless men that hide behind them.

What are the build incidentals or why wouldn't this work?
The only Parry character I've ever made was an unarmed Dex-based Monk. While he was an absolute bitch to kill, I wouldn't call him threatening in the least(being so versed in Parry was actually so he could be largely passive and non-lethal). All the same, I don't feel him gaining +7 AC out of the blue for equipping a Kama is a good idea. Perhaps the "Parry AC" wouldn't stack with Monk AC? You can still build your classic samurai with Robe armor, katana, and monk levels, but his AC would be coming from his Skill with Parry, rather than free monk mojo.

There may be other builds that need to be considered. The only build that currently "works" with Parry as is to my knowledge is a Bard. I can't remember if it converts well to using a two-handed weapon, but it certainly would be something to consider. Perhaps "Parry AC" wouldn't apply while in Parry Mode. It would make sense in the scope that you're either actively using it (in Parry Mode where the raw skill rank basically takes the Place of your AC already) or passively using it (in which case it still applies to your AC, just not as greatly as when you actively focusing on Parrying and nothing more). It's food for thought, and I'd be interested to see what builds would come out of a change like this.

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First, i'd really like to see Parry be usefully utilized. But...

Tumble already basically does this. This would basically double up on the dex-AC bonus builds, which already attain the highest ACs. Using total ranks, rather then base ranks (which I agree, would be the only way to make it work with the idea outlined above), it would require a HUGE commitment of skill points + gear bonus (which are already spread thin with NWN's system) to balance against missing a shield... far much more sacrifice in gear slots than it would cost for a +5 it could replace (if it were not a dodge bonus that stacks with everything). And it would primarily benefit the two-handers... which already get the benefit of extra damage from their style. The rapier wielding fencer, which I'd argue should get the highest parry benefit, would get nothing from this they wouldn't get from just using a shield. It misses it's mark, IMO.

It also loses thematic sense, be limiting it to only shield-less fighters. A fighter with a shield could be just as practiced at parrying, or swordsmanship, as on without.

I've had a parry build running in the back of my mind a while. Parry is broken, in as far as NWN intended to make it work. BUT, in a epic-dodge dex build, it blocks 4 attacks a round. That kinda works with what it is supposed to be, as parry is a dex skill anyways. The only people able to break through that build are ones able to create more attacks then 4, 4 being the standard non augmented attacks/rd on this server.

I don't know what is hardcoded or not, but I think just letting parry grant AC would simply raise the average AC on the server (to builds doubling up on benefit, as I said), and be a disservice to the idea of it. If possible I would like to see parry create a niche for INT fighters. Make it a INT skill, rather then DEX, for a start. If it can be fixed, let the counter attacks ALL be at full AB (rather then descending, they trade off their regular attacks by fighting defensively and looking for the best openings), or let counter attacks count as the enemy being flat footed (granting possible sneak attacks and lower defender ACs). The goal, if anything, should be to make the one handed, shieldless, fighter a possibility, rather then to give two-handers the benefit of using a shield (on top of their other benefits) when they are not.

Also, parry is a combat mode. Letting skill ranks affect AC, without using the combat mode, would be just as broken as tumble granting AC. It would simply change the standard benchmark to be a twohander with maxed parry and tumble, rather then a sword and board fighter with max tumble.

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I really like this idea DI. It would make having a two handed build be survivable, without having divine shield, bard song, or a crap ton of damage resistance/reduction. Those are the only things that make having a two handed build not only survivable, but tolerable.

I wonder if instead of separating "parry ac" and parry mode, why not have the extra ac only activated when you're in parry mode? That would eliminate the abuse of having the extra parry ac with expertise mode. Being a combat mode, you also wouldnt be able to cast in it and gain a sudo-expertise mode. You also wouldnt be able to run through a dungeon with the extra ac since you would have to be in the combat mode.

Builds wise, you're right that the only build that I know of that can properly use parry is bard. From what I remember about the parry bard build is it still uses a shield, so it gains nothing from not using a shield. Dodge ac is what I would make it, so certain builds would have the choice of either "parry ac" or other dodge increasing abilities (bard song, divine shield).

This is precisely the kind of situation that Glim requested not happen while Improving Amia is closed. We need to catch up on current improvements, -not- add new things to the pile. You're welcome to re-post this when the Improving Amia forum is opened again.