AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game

"treating each other nicely"

Don't forget to include how people respond to each other of these forums, in regard of

Quote:

"treating each other nicely"

Some people really need to drop the double standards and remember that however much person A might disagree with person B both, even though both might be separated by thousands of miles behind it all we are still Human beings and should be accorded every dignity and respect we would expect and demand for ourselves.

It's nice to be nice so they say.

I'm gonna go ahead and admit where I've been wrong and say that I haven't been the best to you on occasions. There was especially a recent occasion on the improving amia forums where I was less than awesome in a response to you on knight commander. I still disagree with you on the merits of the class but calling your ability to play the game into question in an insulting manner like I did was dickish.

So I am sorry about that. I know we've clashed more but this is also on my part an attempt to be better myself.

I thought about something at work, while I was willing the hours to pass. We do not like to consent to pnp spells, or extended kidnappings, or a lot of unusual things being done to our characters.

I think the core of this issue is that we do not trust each other. And I think that's bad. We're a community of fourty-to-sixty people. We ought to be able to trust each other with our mutual enjoyment, and trust that the player of a character isn't just trying to punish the player of our character.

I know there may be blows and old wounds, but lets try and trust each other a little more. Not even all the way, but more than we have. As players we cannot even begin to try to address our trust issues with the DM team if we can't trust each other.

Now that I have read them, I think this is very interesting. But I think what would also be very interesting is for the DM's to attempt a similar reflection. It doesn't need to be public, of course-- but it might help!

Glad to see you taking a positive interest, BoB. You've come across as sad and disheartened for the past several months and this is a nice change to see in you. I hope it stays!

Well, no. When you're being purposefully combative in a thread where trying to humanize the issues we as a player base have been under lately and help diffuse tensions so we can get back to having fun with each other, I can only draw one conclusion. You are intentionally being a part of the problem.

Feel free to prove me wrong here though. I really am just trying to remind everyone that everyone here is human. I don't think our player base or DM team (at least people that don't get caught doing so) are trying to make the server not fun for each other, especially not intentionally. What I'm trying to push is the idea that we be willing to look past mistakes and miss steps, or even outright being wrong.

That said we have moments or even long periods of time where we can just get frustrated and snap at people. During those times I usually advocate taking a break because the people doing this usually aren't having fun.

You help noone if you just log on in a sour mood and rant about everyone and everything. Then log onto the forums and search for posts you can comment on because "someone is wrong again".
And this goes for DMs as much as players. If you feel irritated about everything you experience and read it is time to take a step back and do something else for a while. Wait until you feel better, you are less stressed and half the things that sounded your alarms will not sound quite that terrible anymore then.

if you feel there really is some personal grudge involved, approach another DM you feel you can trust. Living with that uncertainty will not do any good. Nor will to speak to everyone else and spread the fear

The "Nor will to speak to everyone else and spread fear" comment does worry me though (in its phrasing) just in how some could take it as it gives off the impression that voicing some disenting opinion publicly is somehow wrong or serves only to cause fear.

Hey look, Opustus and Numbers! That must mean its old opinionated player time again.

As for personal dislike... this should not have a place anywhere of course. It may happen still. I trust all of our DM though to realize when they do not get along with someone to take a step back from anything regarding them if they feel they cannot be without bias.

This would mean:

Take a neutral stance in plot no matter if you like or dislike the person. In a request either be neutral or if you cannot, abstain from voting.

Mistakes:
It someone hit "below the belt" one should appologize. No matter whom.

Naturally, "I had a shit day" can never be an excuse. But it may, perhaps be an explanation alongside with an appology.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Hey look, Opustus and Numbers! That must mean its old opinionated player time again.

I am about 95% certain this was not intended as a snipe. Still, it felt like one on first read through.

My response? I understand English isn't first language for most people here, but please think about what you are going to write and how you address people. I just spent 20 minutes crying about the fact that Spock is dead, and I could easily have turned this into a chewout sesh. Instead I'm just going to make my point and then go away.

I think Square One is actually labelled 'Have Fun'. I'd argue number 2, is labelled 'Don't take things so seriously'.

Author:	bobofwestoregonusa [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 15:19 PM ]
Post subject:	The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I've identified some things about us as a group of players that I think will only serve to harm the longevity of the server right now. We as a collective seem to claim that we can't or don't trust the DM team and want them to change, but that can only happen if we ourselves actually affect change among the entire collective first. This is my first step toward that. Key problems We do not like people who generate conflict. We are often quick to view the player on the other side of the conflict as bad people when we lose. We do not like it when other people's actions, player or DM side, cause our characters to face consequences. This issue has come up quite often. When something bad happens to a faction base, or a settlement, or a character, we tend to get angry about it. This can happen, but it often ends up being taken to the forums in unwarranted aggression or spite toward the offending party. We expect to enforce consequences on others but often flatly refuse to have anything placed on us. I have seen and heard of instances of players who try to permanently kill off other player's characters refuse to be held for any longer than a period of time longer than twenty four hours. I have occasionally seen players do this using DM resources and when repraisal comes form another group of players who had stake in the character removed, they "refused pnp" or "refused to be held longer than 24 hours". Behind each others backs, we are very, very, very mean. The rumor mill on amia has been one of the most unpleasant I've seen on a server - and it gets back to the person we're talking about. We have more than one DM leaving because of the rumor mill here. This is not a joke. We are not being nice to each other. I know that's a bit of a list. I don't want anyone to think this post is an attack but I needed examples. Anyway I think we as a player base can all do well do keep some things in mind when we interact with each other. We are people We will make mistakes We are not our characters Things done to our characters are not being done to us Things being done by other people's characters are not being done by them This is a game Now that I've gotten some of those things out of the way, I'd like to address some things that we have misconceptions about. PvPHow it is often percived: A fight between one or more players How it should be perceived: A fight between one or more characters When we engage in PvP, we have to consider this as conflict between our characters that has role play involved. If we take it as a fight between two players we are going to be angry with each other. It is literally unavoidable. When people fight each other they are angry, because something the other person did offended us in the first place. It doesn't add to the server, the narrative, or create role play when we get into PvP with the idea that the other person has personally done us wrong. When conflict is engaged in with a separation of player and character, we don't lose a fight and immediately report it to the DM team, claiming that there was some sort of use of exploits simply because we lost. We don't create a witch hunt aimed at the player of the offending character. We just role play, and have a night free of ego and attachment on either side. ConsequencesHow they are often percived: Out of character punishment for in character actions How it should be perceived: The product of my character's actions and development of our continued role play Now I'm not going to run around saying that we need to start permanently killing off our characters just because some guy stabbed our character in the gut, that would be kind of silly. However I would prefer to see us as players not so afraid of the idea of our characters having things done to them, or seeing them in prison for what they've done, or letting other players use crazy magic on us after we're captured. That sort of stuff offers interesting role play when it isn't done in an obvious, over the top manner and I think some of the most intense interaction I've had on my PC was in a cell in Wiltun. Gerald met with his captor, someone who could be considered a ghost from his past coming back to haunt him, and they both had this very human interaction. Seeing Velden scared Gerald because he saw what he could become. It was really, really great. But I also sort of just think that when we play in a setting where there are inherent consequences for the actions we might want to take, we're forced to take them more carefully, and we're forced to have better reasons than #evil to do so. It only really adds to our role play and I think if both sides are mature about how they handle things, and willing to meet certain stipulations (such as actually interacting with a player when you hold them hostage) it can be an interesting experience for all of us. The rumor millOkay, this one can't really be summed up with a "how it starts" and "how it ends" definition. We are not treating each other nicely. We've all gotten angry before, it's a very human thing. When we do, we often want to vent, and that's also very human. But sometimes when we vent we take it too far. Sometimes we take it to everyone we know, and we're more than just venting, we're plain mean. Disagreements happen, they're a part of life. The best thing we can do is remember that the person on the other side of the screen is a person, and not some avatar trying to ruin your day. So the best I can say here is that we really just make an effort to be nicer to each other. Don't treat each other a certain way and try not to talk as much venom as we do when we're not looking at each other. It only hurts the player base and often frustrates the DM team because a lot of what we talk about is referencing them because they did something we didn't like. I think if we can bare the above in mind, we can all mutually make the server more enjoyable for each other. I didn't cover much of anything about the DM team here because if I do, it's another post. But I think it would also benefit us to remember that the DM team do not get paid to do this, and they are essentially just players with the ability to control NPCs. Often times they are just trying to make the game more enjoyable for everyone, including themselves.

Author:	Elorathall [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 16:07 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Amen.

Author:	Dakotaen [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 16:27 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
#Like

Author:	gorgometh [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 16:28 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
That's a pretty cool introspective look at how we act as players, bob. People shouldn't forget that DM's make up the playerbase too. We're no different than anyone else when it comes to all of the topics you listed and how we react to them. That's why I hate the "us vs. them" mentality... but anyways. It's good to take a breath and identify these things that sometimes contribute to a toxic attitude in all of us.

Author:	Spirit of Rock [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 16:33 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Good post. A common saying amongst Dwarf Fortress players: 'losing is fun.' That sentiment could really benefit Amia regarding conflict, although I might be more inclined to change it to 'losing should be fun' for our purposes since so many players have quite clearly shown that losing has not been much fun at all.

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Author:	Mr. Hackums [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 17:23 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
.. I love those bullets. I haven't yet read the material, but the way it's structured makes me very happy. How do you do these things? .. Oh.

Author:	Mr. Hackums [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 17:35 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Now that I have read them, I think this is very interesting. But I think what would also be very interesting is for the DM's to attempt a similar reflection. It doesn't need to be public, of course-- but it might help! This could sound crude coming from me-- but I hope, hope, hope that it is not the case. As I mean absolutely no ugliness by it: Basically, I think that Bob's points are by and large correct. But I believe that this is also a cycle produced by an "Us vs Them" mentality. One which is perpetuated unconsciously by both sides. Thus, I earnestly invite the same reflection from members of the staff. What are things the DM's can improve or address to foster a greater mutual enjoyment of the game? Things like that. Please don't take this as a demand of any kind. Forcing reflection produces either poor reflection or upset people-- and I want neither! I just think this is a great opportunity for the community as a whole. But I worry that if it's not done as a whole, that there will be continued "Us vs Them" sentiment. Well, no. I don't worry. But I think it would be neat to see.

Author:	gorgometh [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 18:09 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
We're actively doing this. Not in bob's particular format, which is great, but it's happening and has been for some time now.

Author:	Estara [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 19:51 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
And I get that you hate the 'us vs. them' mentality, gorgz, but... The fact of the matter is that there are still differences in DMs and players, as much as there are similarities, so to ignore those differences or to "hate" them just provides more ammo and frustration for when those differences cause friction and issues. Those differences are perpetuated within this framework, on both sides, and it definitely should not be pushed under the rug because it makes people uncomfortable. Uncomfortable things are always worth talking about, I think.

Author:	Grymia [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 20:24 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Glad to see a lot of the key points of recent dissatisfaction put together into a singular format, this will help a lot of folks try to find solutions to the problems at hand!

Author:	555444333 [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 20:26 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Better find solutions before the DM team resorts to a 40/60 ratio of C2H6O to H2O

Author:	VitalTouch [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 20:50 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Don't forget to include how people respond to each other of these forums, in regard of Quote: "treating each other nicely" Some people really need to drop the double standards and remember that however much person A might disagree with person B both, even though both might be separated by thousands of miles behind it all we are still Human beings and should be accorded every dignity and respect we would expect and demand for ourselves. It's nice to be nice so they say.

Author:	Silent2001 [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 21:11 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
The main thing that always baffled me about Amia was the way in which people dehumanize one another to justify treating them like shit. I mean it happens a lot on FPS when you encounter someone for all of 20 minutes maybe, and they call into question your sexuality and then claim they had coitus with your mother and that's hilarious to me, it just rolls right off my back. But some of the things I've seen on this server as a DM makes me shudder, I would never talk to anyone in real life like I've seen some folks talk on here. A lot of you need to remember your age and the fact that there's people on the other side of the computer screen that are going to eventually find out all the fucked up shit you've said about them. This isn't high school, it's an online community where we all have at least one thing in common - the desire to roleplay, so I just don't understand the vitriolic atmosphere that has slowly but surely begun to creep into this community. The best way to tackle it would be to stop acting like prepubescent children and talk to people directly if you have an issue with them, and if you can't resolve it go to the DM team who will do their utmost to help you. I also agree with everything Bob said.

Author:	VitalTouch [ Tue, Feb 24 2015, 22:34 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
bobofwestoregonusa wrote: I'm gonna go ahead and admit where I've been wrong and say that I haven't been the best to you on occasions. There was especially a recent occasion on the improving amia forums where I was less than awesome in a response to you on knight commander. I still disagree with you on the merits of the class but calling your ability to play the game into question in an insulting manner like I did was dickish. So I am sorry about that. I know we've clashed more but this is also on my part an attempt to be better myself. Well said, I am humbled by your manner and appreciate the sentiment, likewise if I offended you (or anyone else for that matter) I apologise. I would much rather get on with people even when passionately debating a point or topic (but have not always does as much as I could to make it so) and hope that moving forward myself and every other user of these forums will endeavor to approach every post with robust self criticisms before pressing the "submit" button to make sure its relevant and in good order. P.S. Edit: I believe we could all do with giving each other the benefit of the doubt far more than we often do, or in other words assuming a good intent and replying with good will, rather than presume a bad one and reply with bad intent.

Author:	bobofwestoregonusa [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 2:34 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I thought about something at work, while I was willing the hours to pass. We do not like to consent to pnp spells, or extended kidnappings, or a lot of unusual things being done to our characters. I think the core of this issue is that we do not trust each other. And I think that's bad. We're a community of fourty-to-sixty people. We ought to be able to trust each other with our mutual enjoyment, and trust that the player of a character isn't just trying to punish the player of our character. I know there may be blows and old wounds, but lets try and trust each other a little more. Not even all the way, but more than we have. As players we cannot even begin to try to address our trust issues with the DM team if we can't trust each other.

Author:	OpenTheRift [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 3:12 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
<3 Good post. I feel like some of the issues Amia has with the polarization and vitriol has to do with the innate inbreeding of RP and cliques that Amia is relatively incapable of disconnecting from itself. If we could further ingratiate the communal aspect I think we'd be quicker to recognize the humanity between us and we'd certainly feel and act more like a community. As it stands I think we're more conglomeration of micro-communities in an overarching banner. While I do believe there are some standardized factors to these issues I don't deny that ultimately we're all capable of our own decisions on the matters and should in our adulthood be able to recognize them and best appropriate ourselves for the benefit of all. In light of this I apologize wholeheartedly to those I have offended in the past given my heated nature and uncompromising opinions and often aggressive method of attempting to establish them against what I do often perceive as opponents. Sorry, seriously. I'll work on my sometimes poor behavior in hopes to do my part as a member of this community. Thanks for the post bob, it's a breath of fresh air.

Author:	555444333 [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 17:31 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
bobofwestoregonusa wrote: I thought about something at work, while I was willing the hours to pass. We do not like to consent to pnp spells, or extended kidnappings, or a lot of unusual things being done to our characters. I think the core of this issue is that we do not trust each other. And I think that's bad. We're a community of fourty-to-sixty people. We ought to be able to trust each other with our mutual enjoyment, and trust that the player of a character isn't just trying to punish the player of our character. I know there may be blows and old wounds, but lets try and trust each other a little more. Not even all the way, but more than we have. As players we cannot even begin to try to address our trust issues with the DM team if we can't trust each other. I think part of the reason people don't trust other people is because a hell of a lot of attachment comes with some characters.

Author:	gorgometh [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 20:11 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Send 'em on, bobby boy.

Author:	Selmak [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 20:34 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I guess that distrust is something which is natural when encountering someone that you don't know very well. Well, not so much distrust as ambivalence. But also, there is a build up of distrust when people do mean things for no real reason. I can't really tell you what to do there, but I guess what's really needed is an almost unhealthy shot of positivity. Winning or losing, in the context of the server and the story that is trying to be unfolded, are just outcomes. They give your characters motivations, yes, but for you as a player, try to think of it as a day at the office, doing a job you passionately enjoy. Be a little detatched from your character, from the job of portraying them, and look forward to tomorrow. Because when you aren't looking forward to tomorrow, that's when you start calling in sick and wondering why you ever liked that job in the first place. And that is not a good place to be. And you know, don't talk behind someone's back. Be a little introspective and ask yourself what is really bothering you, and then talk to them about it. Even if you're really clumsy with explaining how you feel, at least you're being honest and forthright and willing to give them a chance to explain their side of things.

Author:	PassionateShadow [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 22:08 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
+1 Bob

Author:	Yossarin [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 22:25 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Glad to see you taking a positive interest, BoB. You've come across as sad and disheartened for the past several months and this is a nice change to see in you. I hope it stays!

Author:	Estara [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 22:29 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Yossarin wrote: Glad to see you taking a positive interest, BoB. You've come across as sad and disheartened for the past several months and this is a nice change to see in you. I hope it stays!

Author:	nataliawinters [ Wed, Feb 25 2015, 22:34 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Be gud to each uva or Aggie will find ya an talk to ya fer ours and ours.... You ave been warned!

Author:	bobofwestoregonusa [ Thu, Feb 26 2015, 2:01 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Yossarin wrote: Glad to see you taking a positive interest, BoB. You've come across as sad and disheartened for the past several months and this is a nice change to see in you. I hope it stays! To be honest that's because I was for a little bit, but now I'm just doing this thing where I try to influence things positively instead of occasionally grumbling at people like I was for a while. I wasn't having fun doing it and it's not really helping anything. And since I'm posting here again, I'd like to say a thing. Here's a thing at people. Expectations of the TeamWe as players have a tendancy to put our DM team on a pedestal and forget that everyone is only human. We expect that everything they produce will meet 100% of our expectations 100% of the time, and I think that's a mistake. The team are players who accepted an offer to help make the server more functional and interesting. Sometimes they make a mistake, or sometimes they do a thing we disagree with. And sometimes we get angry for it. Sometimes we get really angry, and we say hurtful things to or about members of the DM team. I've done it too, so I know you've done it. It's okay, here's what I'm going to suggest. When you get mad, remember that they meant well. I know that's an overly simplified explanation to things you might be seeing in front of you, but I also think that's as simple as it needs to be. I've yet to see any sort of maliciousness that has come from a member of the team, but I have seen plenty of frustrated responses. When we see these we have to remember that they're not trying to snap at us, they have lives behind the screen and then when they read some of the things we've been posting (even the stuff I've posted) the game starts to not be fun anymore, and helping make the game fun stops being fun as well. At that point the DM team is basically doing a second job that they don't enjoy or find any satisfaction in, and they do it for people whom are either angry or hostile toward them. Now I know this isn't going to solve the issue of relations between players and the team overnight. But I think remembering stuff like that is something we ought to do for the sake of our own enjoyment. Being pissed off at each other just makes this game not-fun.

Author:	PassionateShadow [ Thu, Feb 26 2015, 6:09 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
+1 again

Author:	Opustus [ Thu, Feb 26 2015, 8:24 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
The foremost responsibility of the DM is towards those whom they personally dislike. The same applies to any job with even a modicum of authority. You simply MUST put aside personal feelings and be able to serve the player with due understanding and consideration for their needs and circumstances regardless of how obnoxious he is or has been to you. If you cannot do it, even after being peer reviewed, you aren't cut out for the job. The only exception to this is when the behaviour of the offender gets so bad it violates our rules. Otherwise, you simply have to keep your DM pants on and maintain a poker face when addressing DM-y issues. Which issues are regarded as DM-y is ultimately up to the DM Team, but DMs should also, at times, be allowed to pull off their DM pants and be themselves among their fellow players, because playing the role is really not always that serious and generally we all have some empathy. EDIT: The way of thinking that whatever people do they really, deep in their hearts, always mean well is hurtful and can easily turn against our interests: it distances us from the truth in situations where truth and humility are most needed. Sometimes people act on impulse just to hurt you without meaning well. Sometimes they vent and aggress on the wrong people. Then the only thing to do is admit your mistake and grow from it. We aren't always rational and composed, we do things out of spite and that rarely, if ever, ends well for anyone. That doesn't mean we shouldn't trust you guys to do your best, you require and deserve a strong vote of confidence to operate smoothly with the community, but we must also be very critical, constantly question your solutions and you must provide us with rationale, and sometimes that may feel like, or actually is, an affront. You must know how to deal with it, or if you don't, you must learn how to. If a person is wrong to the point of being incapable to carry out their job right (whatever that means), that has to be attacked time and time again until they submit and learn. Being always understanding won't teach him anything. If they don't endure critical review and deem it their right to counterattack rather than deliberate, they're simply not aware of the sensibilities of their position. Should such a situation arise, removing a DM shouldn't really be a big deal, just like firing a person in any community for not meeting the expectations lined in their job description.

Author:	555444333 [ Thu, Feb 26 2015, 22:12 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Hey Opustus. I think we went and grew up at some point. I remember when we used to be the people testing the boundaries of DM sanity, now we talkin' about love, peace and human fraternity.

Author:	Opustus [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 8:49 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Ummkay! Sure we have grown up, I've always commended Amia for it. My point was that a DM cannot make amends by saying, "I was cranky, I'm human too! When I do something wrong, remember that I really meant well", because it simply isn't true.

Author:	bobofwestoregonusa [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 9:53 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
Well, no. When you're being purposefully combative in a thread where trying to humanize the issues we as a player base have been under lately and help diffuse tensions so we can get back to having fun with each other, I can only draw one conclusion. You are intentionally being a part of the problem. Feel free to prove me wrong here though. I really am just trying to remind everyone that everyone here is human. I don't think our player base or DM team (at least people that don't get caught doing so) are trying to make the server not fun for each other, especially not intentionally. What I'm trying to push is the idea that we be willing to look past mistakes and miss steps, or even outright being wrong. That said we have moments or even long periods of time where we can just get frustrated and snap at people. During those times I usually advocate taking a break because the people doing this usually aren't having fun.

Author:	Amarice-Elaraliel [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 10:17 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I honestly doubt any DM (definately not me) takes joy in "screwing players over" and intends to do it. The feeling of this can hail from a lot of different angles depening on the case. One is simply a different view or like or dislike. In PnP the DM usually has a handful of people they know pretty well. They know how they tick. They know they react to what kind of things. On a server with a playerbase like Amia this is different. If a DM is a faction DM, he/she may get to know a large portion of the players in it and how they work. Also if they DM a plot or a specific group. If you DM a plot which is a small spontaneous plot or a plot that can involve almost any player on the server who wants to be involved this is not the case. So a lot of players enjoy some hacking monsters. It can happen though that a DM now makes a mob of whatever attack a place, and suddenly there are people who do not like that kind of RP at all. They are not prepared for it, they might die in the event, get raised and are totally pissed because "that retarded DM just wanted to screw us over and kill us all"... while the rest of those around happily slaughtered the mob and goes like "hell yes that was cool, just what my barbarian enjoyed." Things like that happen on a regular base. Or you make a plot which involve a lot of riddles. Then you see a few players log out after a "dumb DM doesn't even want us to solve the plot and makes it extra hard" in party chat, while 3 others have a blast for finally having not to do any fighting. Of course in an ideal world any plot would have something in it for everyone. But that is very rarely to happen. It can be hard to balance things for everyone to like with such a different and changing playerbase (and exciting too, mind!). Some love harsh consequences. Some get upset by them and feel discouraged. Some love fight, some hate it. Some love brain-cracking riddles, some get nightmares from them. Some love to be in any plot available, some already get have a seizure if the word DM plot is only mentioned. Some love dark and twisted, some prefer casual and light. In any case I can assure we do not try to screw anyone over. Why? Keep in mind if 'you' have no fun, we do not either. What can we do to maybe ease that "they try to screw me" feeling. 1. If you are uncomfortable by something, say it please. In that, very clear wording. "I am sorry, nothing against your plot, but this type of RP is not what I enjoy". I am very certain non of us would ever force you to stay part of a plot you do not enjoy. 2. If you feel ignored (IN A PLOT) ask again. In many cases, especially if many players are involved or worse, groups split up, things easily get missed and there is no bad intention behind it. But if you answer 10 questions sent in DM channel and tell you are easily missing one. Same goes for general questions into the DM channel. Please be aware though, that if our Dev-DM are on and in the middle of a test or something the like they may not even have the time to reply that they do not have the time because they need to have a very close eye on what they are testing. lastly... if you feel there really is some personal grudge involved, approach another DM you feel you can trust. Living with that uncertainty will not do any good. Nor will to speak to everyone else and spread the fear.

Author:	LetumLux [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 11:22 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I hope that everyone will read and reflect on Amarice's post. It's one of those "this should be obvious" things, but it's very often forgotten, especially in the moment. This is a very good, important post.

Author:	Dakotaen [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 11:59 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I loved that post, Amarice. +X (X being whichever number you find sufficient to cover the awesomeness of the post and its contents +1).

Author:	Mercedes [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 12:27 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
I don't know a lot about any of this but it has felt like the overall negativity lately has driven some folk away. I've seen it happen in waves before. That said... any nasty thing I have said I was purely about the actions (or ugly face) of your character. I'm perfectly nice folk behind the computer screen and I'm capable of having a lot of fun OOC while we butcher one another. Let's take a page from Bob and others who have commented here and work to split the two up in our minds. I feel a lot of bad feelings arise from that lack of disconnect.

Author:	Opustus [ Fri, Feb 27 2015, 12:31 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: The Player Base - On mutual enjoyment of a game
bobofwestoregonusa wrote: Well, no. When you're being purposefully combative in a thread where trying to humanize the issues we as a player base have been under lately and help diffuse tensions so we can get back to having fun with each other, I can only draw one conclusion. You are intentionally being a part of the problem. Feel free to prove me wrong here though. I really am just trying to remind everyone that everyone here is human. I don't think our player base or DM team (at least people that don't get caught doing so) are trying to make the server not fun for each other, especially not intentionally. What I'm trying to push is the idea that we be willing to look past mistakes and miss steps, or even outright being wrong. That said we have moments or even long periods of time where we can just get frustrated and snap at people. During those times I usually advocate taking a break because the people doing this usually aren't having fun. This post is exactly the kind of behaviour a DM should never exert on a player. You are pointing a finger at me, counterattacking instead of being understanding and commenting on the points I tried to present to you in my post. Whether I am purposefully combative is beside the point, because that's really a matter of perspective. In my opinion, I am raising a very valid point you didn't address in your post. I understand we are all human and I don't seriously think that anyone would deliberately wish to harm anyone here. Nonetheless, people make mistakes and looking past them CAN be detrimental to communal growth. I am not entirely sure what mistakes you are referring to, I have been out of the picture for so long I have no clue what the big fuss is about. But you should be willing to discuss this matter with me and argue my points, if you disagree with them. I'm not implying that these mistakes, whatever you are referring to, couldn't be forgotten this time, there are times for that as well, but in almost all cases mistakes should be admitted, addressed and solved. You must take responsibility for them. Let me try to explain you how I perceive Amia. Amia is a community like any other, it is important to people and these people are your people. Your job as the authority, i.e. DMs, of the community is to advocate and defend the interests of your people, us. You must realise your responsibility as the provider for these people, and frankly, instead of pressing flat my comment and saying I am part of the problem, you should try to meet me with understanding. This is part of your job. It's not always about what is fun and what is not; once you accept your role as the caretaker of the community, your job is not only fun and games. Naturally, uncomfortable situations can and should be part of the reason why you DM in the first place (you should enjoy the responsibility of being an authority and respect yourself for it), but you should also be able to deal with unpleasant situations with the player's interest ranking first and your own entertainment being only secondary. If you just want to have a bunch of fun and not talk politics with players, I don't see why you couldn't just be a content creator and player instead. (For the last sentence the "you" is used to refer to anyone in general, not you Bob.) I assure you people, I am not being purposefully negative. I'm not being negative at all; if that conveys to you, it wasn't my intention. I'm trying to be constructive and instruct you in your DMing. I am trying to point out perfectly valid points the DM Team is not addressing here, as should be my right and as should be your job to firstly try to learn from it and secondly try to reason why it's not really a valid point at all and why it can be ignored. I think it is only useful and can't see the harm in it. EDIT: Dammit, I'm such a dunce. For some reason I thought this whole time that Bob was a DM, I most deeply and humbly apologise! But I still stand behind what I said about the community, the role of DMs and making mistakes.